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Roaming // Condi builds forcing us to sacrifice crucial build elements for cleanse uptime


solemn.9670

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I typed a long detailed post and decided to delete it because condi-mains will just reply with "jUsT cLeanSe JuSt DoDgE" regardless. You can't fix people like that and I won't try to change their minds.

Fact of the matter: condi is OP and every competent player who wants to win at least 8/10 matchups is forced to run a build with antitoxin rune, or lose every time vs condi mirage, core necro, occasionally to burn guard, and condi rev (to an even lesser degree). There is simply not enough condi cleanse in the game to deal with these builds without specifically building against them (i.e. antitoxin fire weaver), sacrificing crucial traits that would be of value vs power enemies or forcing certain builds and decreasing build diversity/overall fun of the game...

overpowered builds are overpowered, enough said. please don't take half a year to patch this.

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Conditions are strong (busted) currently but youre not correct in your solution. Condi cleanse buffs have contributed to the current situation where too many specs are overloaded on cleanses and condis have been buffed to combat this.

Cleansing sigil is absolutely broken in wvw and even if the meta isn't favoring condis was already required in builds prior to the patch anyways.

I've basically been playing exclusively power revenant recently (resistance runes and cleansing sigil) and in most fights I am not overloaded with conditions as long as I play well. But...

The problem with condi in wvw currently (and support) is the gear stats that are available to them in dire/tb (and minstrels for support). There is basically no reason to not take these stats currently and you don't need to think just face tank damage. This issue is only compounded with how weakness doesn't impact condi dmg but is a massive dmg loss on any power build.

If these stat sets are removed we can actually start to evaluate balancing, but until then these overperforming sets will dominate any build design and balance decision and are imo the root of the current (garbage) meta.

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Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

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@God.2708 said:Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

This! oh yes and just dodge, cleanse.

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@God.2708 said:Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

You're totally right, trade offs are required. That is at the core of balance. But I struggle to find the trade offs for using dire/tb/minstrels. You don't lose dmg (or support ability for minstrels), you don't lose toughness, you don't lose hp. You're gotten away with countering builds (such as burst builds) that are supposed to combat yours without actually making a concession.

I'm not against condi I'm against stat sets being no brainer decisions. There are reasons dire/tb/minstrels don't exist in spvp, and it's not because spvpers don't know how to properly counter builds.

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@God.2708 said:Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice

How exactly is running a stat that gives you both offensive stats that you need (Condition damage + expertise) as well as vitality and toughness a sacrifice?

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Lowering of the skill ceiling.

But I definitely understand what you mean, it feels terrible to h-a-v-e to account for random pug showing up mid-fight with their 3k toughness and 25k hp to spam skills they haven't even read. You can't just burst them down and continue, they die anyway but you have to waste so much more on these people that have no business being in the fight that long in the first place. It's frustrating and just artificially adds difficulty. And it's not just the more casual players either, you put a skilled player on some of the tb builds doing they rounds and they just demolish everything, sure, slower, but they do, particularly in 1v1's, it's not a question of if but when.

Hyperbole clearly but I feel these points are pretty valid and core issues to a certain section of the WvW playerbase.

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@God.2708 said:Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

The “sacrifice” you’re describing here with dire/trailblazer to deal with “power specs that roam in pairs or trios“. So balanced means you should be able to take on 1v2 or 1v3 consistently on a condi build? That doesn’t make sense to me.

What’s the opportunity cost of taking trailblazer or dire gear? It’s not like you need other offensive stats to do good condition damage. There is minimal sacrifice to condition damage when you pick up dire/trailblazer gear.

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Ok now that I have some more time to go in depth.@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" Which class is it that you play that you feel forced to run Antitoxin, cuz let's have a little look at what condi cleanse classes have available across the spectrum.

Mesmer: I would have to login to double check but off the top of my head I currently run 20-22 cleanses over the first 30 secs of the fight, should the need arise, which is never because that's 3 full condi bombs cleansed.

Warrior: You get 10-16 condis cleansed over the first 30 secs and that's without investing too much into it, you could go way more if you really wanna build for it.

Ranger: You get 10-16 condis cleansed over the first 30 secs by playing the standard wilderness survival/BM build. If you go druid that number goes astronomically high.

Engineer: If you make use of your fields (toolbelt and conjured weapons) and finishers you can cleanse an insane amount of condi, I don't think I'm able to make an educated guess without spending time looking at it. But think Upward of 15.

Guardian: This one doesn't need any consideration, anyone that has played the game for more than 2 days, can tell you this guy is your boy when condi is present, best part his is AoE.

Elementalist: Tricky, depending on build it could have insane cleanse potential or close to none.Edit: I just got back from my Ele guy. Without going overboard you can get 15 cleanses in the first 30 secs of a fight, no Antitoxin runes, no Cleansing sigil.

Necromancer: Decent arsenal of impactful cleansing/transfer options available in the base kit. Needs no further consideration, maybe Reaper is on the lower end? Though again you can probably slot in enough condi cleanse without having to resort to Antitoxin runes, which is what you claim is required.

Thief: If you're a Daredevil, literally all you have to do is pick escapist fortitude and shadowstep and you're already borderline never going to have a problem with condi. For the others slotting Signet of Agility and 1-2 cleansing sigil(s) is more than sufficient to put you in good standing to where you'll never need to slot Antitoxin runes.

Revenant: I have a feeling this is where the bread winner is gonna be, Power Shiro has always had lackluster cleanse options, however the not so recent changes to cleansing sigil made them fair much better. Power Shiro is a glass cannon kill or be killed kind of spec that has active defense options to sustain itself for the duration of the fight. Yes it doesn't do well against heavy condi pressure, but no build is good against everything. This is prolly the only build I'd say requires double cleansing in the current meta.On the other hand, if you look at Malyx Rev, practically immune to condi.

Was that 9? I believe it was. Now to summarize, every single class in the game has options to build for more than enough condi cleanse, to deal with just about any situation that isn't a blob full of pulsing AoE and that is fine, that's why you have your resident Mender FBs to compound cleanse the blob, but your title says "roaming" so we'll just ignore that point altogether. The only build and I do say build as it's not representative of the class as a whole is Power Shiro Rev.So what exactly is your problem with condi cleanses and why do you feel the need slot Antitoxin runes to roam successfully?

Tl;DR: Your complaint feels more like universal hatred for condis, stemming from you being lazy or unwilling to slot any cleanse options provided by your kit so you can drool over big numbers while yelling "BIG DAMAGE, BIG DAMAGE!"

Edit: I stand corrected, the OP is a FIRE WEAVER, oh the irony. :lol:

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@knite.1542 said:Goodness. That is an impressive list. With condi cleanse being so easy and available it makes me wonder how condi builds get any kills ever.

I have the sneaking suspicion the OP is complaining about condi class stacking in small roaming groups, which has gotten more popular now that we have more than 1 working condi class at the same time. And yes, you can’t outsustain 2 condi classes pummeling you, but the same is true for having 2 glass cannons tunneling you. You’re not supposed to, in a perfect balance scenario at equal skill 1 player should not be able to 1vX.

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@kiwituatara.6053 said:

@God.2708 said:Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

The “sacrifice” you’re describing here with dire/trailblazer to deal with “power specs that roam in pairs or trios“. So balanced means you should be able to take on 1v2 or 1v3 consistently on a condi build? That doesn’t make sense to me.

What’s the opportunity cost of taking trailblazer or dire gear? It’s not like you need other offensive stats to do good condition damage. There is minimal sacrifice to condition damage when you pick up dire/trailblazer gear.

The sacrifice you are making is that if the opponent equips anti-toxin runes and takes even a modicum amount of cleanse you are literally a walking cabbage. Base damage with no power behind is absolutely no threat. It is why the real PITA condition classes are usually celestial hybrids that pressure you on both layers to which there is no counter except to out stat them better, these are the builds worth discussing over how to nerf, and historically have been the most problematic. Most builds complained about are not exactly fun to fight, but they are easily countered cheese and they exist in equal parts for both power and condi.

To the other person, PvP toughness got removed because you have to go to the enemy. In a sandbox mode where it's perfectly viable to turn the corner, make a few gear changes, and come back around and be effectively immortal the issue is not the stats but the approach. They just removed knights and cavaliers too, I suppose those are over performing in WvW?

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@Dawdler.8521 said:OP seems to imply that condi builds are immune to condi without making the same sacrifices to crucial build elements as power.

Or is unhappy that a mean Condi Rev transferred his 12 stacks of burn right back at him. :lol:

@God.2708 said:

@God.2708 said:Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

The “sacrifice” you’re describing here with dire/trailblazer to deal with “power specs that roam in pairs or trios“. So balanced means you should be able to take on 1v2 or 1v3 consistently on a condi build? That doesn’t make sense to me.

What’s the opportunity cost of taking trailblazer or dire gear? It’s not like you need other offensive stats to do good condition damage. There is minimal sacrifice to condition damage when you pick up dire/trailblazer gear.

The sacrifice you are making is that if the opponent equips anti-toxin runes and takes even a modicum amount of cleanse you are literally a walking cabbage. Base damage with no power behind is absolutely no threat.
It is why the real PITA condition classes are usually celestial hybrids that pressure you on both layers to which there is no counter except to out stat them better
, these are the builds worth discussing over how to nerf, and historically have been the most problematic. Most builds complained about are not exactly fun to fight, but they are easily countered cheese and they exist in equal parts for both power and condi.

To the other person, PvP toughness got removed because you have to go to the enemy. In a sandbox mode where it's perfectly viable to turn the corner, make a few gear changes, and come back around and be effectively immortal the issue is not the stats but the approach. They just removed knights and cavaliers too, I suppose those are over performing in WvW?

This is true, however the recent power level nerfs affected those severely due to the already lower power levels they can achieve, making them far less desirable.

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Am I in the minority of people who enjoy fighting different builds.. condi or otherwise? I'm a power build currently, can also roam as a healer.. but haven't been able to theory craft a proper condi build yet as I'm working on the legendary gear to be able to fine tune one. I wouldn't like seeing them toned down just because I enjoy the diversity in what I fight and also like having multiple options as a player myself. Something I lose to most is condi revenant and 2+ groups of condi/support firebrands (solo ones are np) but it doesn't mean I don't enjoy fighting it.

I honestly hope that the WvW forum doesn't become like whining on sPvP one: "I lost to X please nerf, since it's not my ability, build, poor choices, or being outplayed/outnumbered but because my inferior opponent is running a super powered indestructible build".

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Wonder how many people would screech about condi if a full condition damage build was a squish as full zerker....Condi has its own power/ferocity with condi damage/expertise its just missing that third stat to make gear options require a bit more thought. Could they work precision into condition somehow? Maybe. Probably a better option than creating an entirely new stat. Something like making skills that apply condi only apply a base amount for a non-crit and then the full amount if the skill crits?

A skill example

Enfeebling BloodA non crit would apply 1 bleed but a crit would apply all 3.

Though rabid is condi/pre/tough ......which most people would flock to and just ignore the expertise loss all together possibly mixing in dire to get some vit back. So that stat would probably have to play a bigger role(lower base durations with expertise increasing it at a higher rate? I'm thinking along the lines of what they did to healing power).Don't know how to really rework condi with how this game built it and not leave loopholes or over complicating it.

I feel like since HoT there has been plenty of condi builds that got obliterated because of the tankyness of the gearing options rather than the actual output. I don't know if this idea is good or not its just what I thought up on the spot.

-edit using precision and crits would also bring weakness in to play against condition builds.

@"Strider.7849" said:Am I in the minority of people who enjoy fighting different builds.. condi or otherwise?Having some variety in opposition is nice instead of fighting the same cookie-cutter build from each class all day long.

I honestly hope that the WvW forum doesn't become like whining on sPvP one: "I lost to X please nerf, since it's not my ability, build, poor choices, or being outplayed/outnumbered but because my inferior opponent is running a super powered indestructible build".Pretty sure we crossed that bridge a long time ago. Not saying there haven't been some over performing setups over the years but some of the threads people create make me want to question if they can even tie their own shoe...

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@Lightning Xv.8705 said:Condi has its own power/ferocity with condi damage/expertise its just missing that third stat to make gear options require a bit more thought. Could they work precision into condition somehow? Maybe. Probably a better option than creating an entirely new stat. Something like making skills that apply condi only apply a base amount for a non-crit and then the full amount if the skill crits?The third factor is called condi cleanse. And there is a fourth factor as well, ramp up time. Power suffer neither of these two to the same degree (especially not the last, obviously). Also unlike condi which exponentially drops in efficiency the larger the groups are, power gets exponentially more effective the larger the groups are, because of how easy it is to AoE cleanse under pressure compared to healing, not to mention that ramp up time.

Here is the simple truth - are there unbalanced outliers with specific skills and combo fields that make them able to dump too much condi too fast? Yes.

Should someone yell that all condi is bad at the top thier lungs as they just got slaughtered by someone? Be my guest, but then allow me to present the damage of a 50 man zerg as proof that roaming core eles needs to be nerfed. Hard.

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@"Strider.7849" said:Am I in the minority of people who enjoy fighting different builds.. condi or otherwise? I'm a power build currently, can also roam as a healer.. but haven't been able to theory craft a proper condi build yet as I'm working on the legendary gear to be able to fine tune one. I wouldn't like seeing them toned down just because I enjoy the diversity in what I fight and also like having multiple options as a player myself. Something I lose to most is condi revenant and 2+ groups of condi/support firebrands (solo ones are np) but it doesn't mean I don't enjoy fighting it.

I honestly hope that the WvW forum doesn't become like whining on sPvP one: "I lost to X please nerf, since it's not my ability, build, poor choices, or being outplayed/outnumbered but because my inferior opponent is running a super powered indestructible build".

Honestly, I can't fathom what game everyone else is playing, but while I can point to plenty of things that I think could work better, I've always felt combat felt good in this game. It never mattered which meta people were complaining about.

Am I the one doing it wrong here?

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