any viable wvw condi or cele build?

[babazhook.6805]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I agree with @UNOwen.7132, played some condi p/d after SA rework and I think DE is less reliable than other versions. It feels like people try to add DE for the sake of M7, but for that to comfortably proc, you should add some precision to the mix to actually crit for malice gain. Losing a gap closer on steal also hurts your dmg capabilities unless your opponent wants to sit on your face anyways. Basically it feels like picking DE allows your opponent to decide how he wants to lead the fight, which is meh.

The vast majority of builds in WvW roaming come to you. I find no need of the port to. The Ranger is the only exception.

The ones that come to you, burst you down. You need the steal to get the drop on them.

Since the changes to Repeater Mali7 is easy to build. All you need is around 20 percent precision (When repeater added i tweaked my build so as to achieve that). Malicious intent is one of 7. A single full iteration of #3 will generally add 5 more. It does not take long. You can generally get 2 full loads of malice in the time it takes that steal to come off cooldown on a core build. Mixed with Mercy thats a whole lot more INI using attacks.

Trouble here is getting repeater in the first place (why was I calling it unload?).

Prior to changes I did not use DE for mali 7. I relied on the might add from FFe as this maxxed might in a hurry but with the add of even the odds that might add was redundant.

The nature of the stolen items in DE compared to Core is what puts it over the top in a Condition build and NOT that Mali7 IMO. The only weak steal is the mesmer one. The Necro , revenant and Engineer steals are at the top of the heap. The utilities also better suit Condi and in particular Binding shadows. A cast of that is a death sentence for many.

Actually, Id say the stolen skills are a lot worse on DE. You dont get Consume Plasma. You dont get Blinding Tuft. No Skull Fear. And the Necro and Revenant steals would be nice, except thats the

exact

classes that you dont want to face when playing condi thief. Necro just kills you with your own condis, and Revenant just resistances through them.

The other reason cited for taking TR was the Boon theft. Again I do not find this as important to a p/d condition build. There are only a small number of boons that when on an enemy give issues and the ease at which they reapplied does not garner that great an advantage when you do steal them. Boon theft is much more important to a power build so you can get that damage spike in while the protective boons down.

Resistance is a pretty big one tbh.

Are you serious on resistance? you get a steal once every 21 seconds. That the only chance to take resistance. There not many classes that have resistance and they have to have it up when you do your steal. You talk about playing Good players and being unable to use CND on them. No good player is going to throw up resistance when you have your steal ready and there no conditions on them. They throw it up after you apply the conditions. Rev just throws up an alternate source then what does your confusion do ?

Sometimes one steal is all you need. Especially since Runes of Durability and Resistance are quite common, and they dont give resistance for long.

What do you steal in Core from a rev? I second of slow? the damage component does not amount to much in a condition build.

Apparently its around 3 seconds of slow, supposedly its bugged for some reason. Thats more useful than a condi against a build that will just shrug it off.

To the stolen skills the Only one that is better is Plasma. As I said I can get a Mini plasma every 10 seconds and it actually faster the second time due to Fury kick in. You are not always facing mesmer. Blinding Tuft? That is not important. You state in one post stealth not used and now want blinding tuft? the steal against thief with the DE is the same blind usable twice (4 if in improv) along with Fury which fuels mali 7. There already plenty of stealth in DE. Blinding tuft is not a step up.

With a lot more setup and less reliability than just using Consume Plasma. Stealth isnt used much because

accessing

stealth is a pain in the kitten and generally not really achievable. But Blinding Tuft gives it to you for free. Might as well use it to get access to the stealth attack. Its better access to stealth than DE, since you can use it immediately and it doesnt require giving up anything.

Necro and Revenant? The most commonly encountered Necro builds you face are much easier in DE. In fact this deliberately one of the classes I seek out when in DE. Against Rev you get more resistance sources then he does with your stolen item. In any case how the heck does taking TR over DE help here? You fare worse against Necro and rev using TR by a long shot. Your port to on steal against necro is in fact a handicap.

The most commonly encountered Necro builds are the ones built to hard-counter condi builds. As I said, blast them with a condi-bomb, and they immediately retrasnfer it back to you and kill you with it. They also take your M7 Boons and turn them all into conditions, killing you with it. Trickery however lets you use Skull Fear for the, well, fear. Force them to have a stunbreak, and if they dont, your condis will tick down before they can transfer them to you. That, + not having a ton of boons they corrupt, makes you fare better. Against, Slow does more against power Rev than torment, and you lose against condi rev anyway.

Skull fear? I would rather have the potential to heal 4800 and apply 20 bleeds. You are a condition build apply conditions. This is far more effective then a fear every 21 seconds. (or two if you use improv)

Then those 20 bleeds get thrown back onto you, and you die since you lack condi-clears. CC is more valuable than more damage in a matchup where that damage will be killing

you

, not them. Though ideally you would just avoid Necros in the first place, as I said, they, alongside Revenants and Guardians just happen to be your 3 worst matchups.

As to ranger....Immob and Superspeed. You can go 4 immobs with 12 seconds superspeed (4 poison also added) which gives you the ability to close. Your steals hit from 1500 so even at his max range with his LB you can hit him. This of course varies depending if you take panic strike/improv/potent. in various combinations.

Their max range is actually 1700-ish, more if theyre uphills. Ranger projectiles dont have a hard range cap, they just travel in an arc. And even with Superspeed, youre gonna need like, what, almost 4 full seconds to run up to them? If they cant kill you in those 4 seconds, theyre probably AFK.

Engineer? they are never going to stand in that Core steal field. I want the protection and 10 stacks vuln. You mentioned prior that Flickering shadows only on a short period of time. You mix that up time with stolen protection from engie and the protection coming from mali 7 and there a whole lot of uptime on mitigation.

Well, other than if you use immobilise. But youre right, generally they wont stand in it. The problem is the other version isnt great either. Especially on Engineer, who currently clears condis quite well too, and has projectile denial. As for the uptime on mitigation, Flickering Shadow wont be active very much, and the others get ripped or corrupted. You will find yourself with not that much mitigation very often.

The ele one is also weak in DE but it is not that great in core either. The DE one is better then the core one just because you get multiple uses and the vigor.

Chill is pretty brutal on Eles, it affects their elemental attunements. Not exactly top notch, but quite potent.

To repeater, again I have no issues getting to use it in game. As I stated most classes will close on you.

And as I said, the ones that close on you burst you down. They are the ones to get the drop on you. You wont have much success trying to skill 3 into repeater against a Rev who immobilised you and is now killing you. Or on another thief who jumped on you with backstab, feared you, and is going to match your skill 3 with Shadowshots. Or on a Warrior who is going to keep CCing you. Or on a Mesmer who does the same thing as thief, but probably kills you. Even Weaver wont be great, because theyre gonna evade spam to prevent your skill 3. You need to burst. DE hurts your burst.

Again I swapped to core and stuck with it a long time after enhancements to SA and deadly ambition. This was using the TR version. The big miss is not the BT (downgraded in any case) , it is lead attacks. The other reason to take TR is INI but DE has more. Confusion is the third and that just makes you burstier as opposed to being able to applying sustained damage. Burstier fares worse against Necro and rev. They are much more able to deal with bursts of conditions then sustained.

Thats the point. Being burstier is the way you win. Youre not going to win the sustained fight, because other classes either burst you down or trivialise your conditions.

You spoke about engineers clearing conditions. When you have burst rather then sustained it easier for them. You speak to all the downsides about projectile denial etc and without understanding taking trickery does NOT change that. nor does it diminish cleanses. Added to that the steal in DE is not a projectile.

Only if they run Elixir C. Which they generally dont. Otherwise they have a much easier time clearing sustained condi damage than burst condi damage thanks to Prismatic Converter. And anti-corrosion plating if they play that version. Projectile Denial is something Trickery doesnt help with much, but you still get burst damage out of Bewildering Ambush, and you have more options for up-close attempts.

You claim you are not going to win a fight? I win fights every time I am in the game. I would not play a build where I could not win a fight.

Against a competent necro, or a competent Revenant, you will not win a fight, yes. They crush you. Like,

really

easily.

I win more fights in DE due to the fact it has more access to stealth and can survive longer in a match and when roaming has ways to escape outnumbered situations. When I was in TR spec I died more and would only win more against low cleanse specs. The more cleanses they got the less likely TR version was to win.

DE only has more access to stealth if it gives up valuable utility skills. When it comes to surviving or running away, Stealth is

far

less valuable than, say, Daggerstorm. Sure you survive longer in theory, but in practice you get bursted down before you can get your survivability online, and your damage simply gets outpaced.

You speak of burst in the TR spec. There a single condition add that lasts 3 seconds. It is confusion. Good players do not keep attacking when they have confusion on.. To lead attacks yes that adds damage but I also have far more might on an ongoing basis. The necro steal (20 bleeds) is Burstier. The malicious sneak attack (5 bleeds 5 torments) is burstier . 5 4 seconds base bleeds and 5 torment (1 second base) will do more damage then 6 3 second confusion stacks. The stolen items add plenty of burst specs and have the flexibility of using in one go as in apply 20 bleeds right off at max range or timing so that you can apply 5 bleeds, wait on cleanse apply 15 more. DE can reset the steal. TR can not.

Its not just the confusion. Its the teleport. On Trickery, you steal, skill 3, then use repeater, well, repeatedly. Quick burst the enemy doesnt have much time to react to. On the other hand, if youre using DE, thats not an option. You have to walk up to the enemy, hope they dont stop you in any way, and then skill 3 and repeater slowly. Unless you use Infiltrators Signet, but thats giving up a lot. And what do you gain? Stolen skills that apply condi to builds that make sure that that condi is never going to kill them, but instead is going to kill you? Sustain on a build that cant sustain against any competent build? None of that helps when youre a burst spec that cant burst.

You keep repeating the teleport part. One post you say it teleport then the next you say it burst. When I point out I have just as much burst with stolen items and the #1 malicious sneak attack. you discount burst. As i stated teleport 2 is a HANDICAP against a number of builds and I have no issues getting people to close on me. When I point out I can allow people to close on me, you reply with "they are just going to CC you when you use #3 . If they are going to CC you when you use number 3 it makes no difference if you on TR or in DE.

I do not have to "walk up to the enemy" as only ranger and perhaps mesmer want to really stay at range. DH in fact tries to pull you to him. Warrior comes to you. Ele comes to you. Reve comes to you. Necro comes to you. I do not know what you mean about "using #3 slowly" in a DE build. it is not any faster in TR. Nothing in TR makes it faster to repeat. the Only thing faster is the first use of it then your steal is gone for 21 seconds. In that 21 seconds I can use the BETTER stolen items several times over and rest my steal and use again.

You then talk about the applying conditions that the enemy is going to use to kill you while at the same time suggesting a strategy that is going to put on conditions that allow the enemy to use them against you. What are you on about? If your worry is necro or some other class turning the conditions apply against you then why the heck are you suggesting applying confusion and then porting to that necro to apply condition Being in TR does not change this., You can only kill people by applying conditions so how does being in TR in a condition build help you here?

So let us look at the skills that "transfer conditions" to another person. The Necromancer main one is Plaque signet. It has 25 second cooldown at its range is LESS then the range from which a DE can apply those 20 bleeds. Further to that he Necro can not transfer against stealthed target. The other skills that transfer conditions tend to be "to nearby oppoents" or persons caught in AOE again easier if the person is CLOSED on you then at range. Deathly swarm does not work on people1000+ away. Putrid mark has less r range then your steal and it is much easier to avoid for people further away as opposed to ontop of you where it can be planted at the necroes feet. Same with arcane thievery. You outrange them with condition application and at range it easier to avoid.

Suffer only has 600 range. The steal application is 1500 and so on. Virtually every skill that transfers conditions is much more effective at close range and when you teleport TO those enemies to apply conditions you are at close range.

You then compare daggerstorm to Smeld. I get more BURST conditions using shadowmeld and #1 then you will ever get from Daggerstorm. So is bursting conditions important or not? In the time you have your daggerstortm come off cooldown I can launch multiple malicious sneak attacks each applying more conditions.

Your comment on daggerstorm allowing a better escape then stealth is just wrong on every level and "your damage is going to be outpaced" is simply wrong. When I am roaming it stealth and not daggerstrom that saves me in outnumbereds. Daggerstorm does not give any great boost in damage nor does the TR spec. so what are you mean "damage being outpaced"?

And enough of this "against good opponents. I play the game every night and not every person I face is bad. Those good oppenents can deal more easily with a TR over De spec then vice versa. There nothing in the TR kit in a p/d condition build that makes it better against "good opponents" Confusion every 21 seconds is not better against good opponents. Nor is stealing 2 boons and that all the spec has over DE.

[UNOwen.7132]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I agree with @UNOwen.7132, played some condi p/d after SA rework and I think DE is less reliable than other versions. It feels like people try to add DE for the sake of M7, but for that to comfortably proc, you should add some precision to the mix to actually crit for malice gain. Losing a gap closer on steal also hurts your dmg capabilities unless your opponent wants to sit on your face anyways. Basically it feels like picking DE allows your opponent to decide how he wants to lead the fight, which is meh.

The vast majority of builds in WvW roaming come to you. I find no need of the port to. The Ranger is the only exception.

The ones that come to you, burst you down. You need the steal to get the drop on them.

Since the changes to Repeater Mali7 is easy to build. All you need is around 20 percent precision (When repeater added i tweaked my build so as to achieve that). Malicious intent is one of 7. A single full iteration of #3 will generally add 5 more. It does not take long. You can generally get 2 full loads of malice in the time it takes that steal to come off cooldown on a core build. Mixed with Mercy thats a whole lot more INI using attacks.

Trouble here is getting repeater in the first place (why was I calling it unload?).

Prior to changes I did not use DE for mali 7. I relied on the might add from FFe as this maxxed might in a hurry but with the add of even the odds that might add was redundant.

The nature of the stolen items in DE compared to Core is what puts it over the top in a Condition build and NOT that Mali7 IMO. The only weak steal is the mesmer one. The Necro , revenant and Engineer steals are at the top of the heap. The utilities also better suit Condi and in particular Binding shadows. A cast of that is a death sentence for many.

Actually, Id say the stolen skills are a lot worse on DE. You dont get Consume Plasma. You dont get Blinding Tuft. No Skull Fear. And the Necro and Revenant steals would be nice, except thats the

exact

classes that you dont want to face when playing condi thief. Necro just kills you with your own condis, and Revenant just resistances through them.

The other reason cited for taking TR was the Boon theft. Again I do not find this as important to a p/d condition build. There are only a small number of boons that when on an enemy give issues and the ease at which they reapplied does not garner that great an advantage when you do steal them. Boon theft is much more important to a power build so you can get that damage spike in while the protective boons down.

Resistance is a pretty big one tbh.

Are you serious on resistance? you get a steal once every 21 seconds. That the only chance to take resistance. There not many classes that have resistance and they have to have it up when you do your steal. You talk about playing Good players and being unable to use CND on them. No good player is going to throw up resistance when you have your steal ready and there no conditions on them. They throw it up after you apply the conditions. Rev just throws up an alternate source then what does your confusion do ?

Sometimes one steal is all you need. Especially since Runes of Durability and Resistance are quite common, and they dont give resistance for long.

What do you steal in Core from a rev? I second of slow? the damage component does not amount to much in a condition build.

Apparently its around 3 seconds of slow, supposedly its bugged for some reason. Thats more useful than a condi against a build that will just shrug it off.

To the stolen skills the Only one that is better is Plasma. As I said I can get a Mini plasma every 10 seconds and it actually faster the second time due to Fury kick in. You are not always facing mesmer. Blinding Tuft? That is not important. You state in one post stealth not used and now want blinding tuft? the steal against thief with the DE is the same blind usable twice (4 if in improv) along with Fury which fuels mali 7. There already plenty of stealth in DE. Blinding tuft is not a step up.

With a lot more setup and less reliability than just using Consume Plasma. Stealth isnt used much because

accessing

stealth is a pain in the kitten and generally not really achievable. But Blinding Tuft gives it to you for free. Might as well use it to get access to the stealth attack. Its better access to stealth than DE, since you can use it immediately and it doesnt require giving up anything.

Necro and Revenant? The most commonly encountered Necro builds you face are much easier in DE. In fact this deliberately one of the classes I seek out when in DE. Against Rev you get more resistance sources then he does with your stolen item. In any case how the heck does taking TR over DE help here? You fare worse against Necro and rev using TR by a long shot. Your port to on steal against necro is in fact a handicap.

The most commonly encountered Necro builds are the ones built to hard-counter condi builds. As I said, blast them with a condi-bomb, and they immediately retrasnfer it back to you and kill you with it. They also take your M7 Boons and turn them all into conditions, killing you with it. Trickery however lets you use Skull Fear for the, well, fear. Force them to have a stunbreak, and if they dont, your condis will tick down before they can transfer them to you. That, + not having a ton of boons they corrupt, makes you fare better. Against, Slow does more against power Rev than torment, and you lose against condi rev anyway.

Skull fear? I would rather have the potential to heal 4800 and apply 20 bleeds. You are a condition build apply conditions. This is far more effective then a fear every 21 seconds. (or two if you use improv)

Then those 20 bleeds get thrown back onto you, and you die since you lack condi-clears. CC is more valuable than more damage in a matchup where that damage will be killing

you

, not them. Though ideally you would just avoid Necros in the first place, as I said, they, alongside Revenants and Guardians just happen to be your 3 worst matchups.

As to ranger....Immob and Superspeed. You can go 4 immobs with 12 seconds superspeed (4 poison also added) which gives you the ability to close. Your steals hit from 1500 so even at his max range with his LB you can hit him. This of course varies depending if you take panic strike/improv/potent. in various combinations.

Their max range is actually 1700-ish, more if theyre uphills. Ranger projectiles dont have a hard range cap, they just travel in an arc. And even with Superspeed, youre gonna need like, what, almost 4 full seconds to run up to them? If they cant kill you in those 4 seconds, theyre probably AFK.

Engineer? they are never going to stand in that Core steal field. I want the protection and 10 stacks vuln. You mentioned prior that Flickering shadows only on a short period of time. You mix that up time with stolen protection from engie and the protection coming from mali 7 and there a whole lot of uptime on mitigation.

Well, other than if you use immobilise. But youre right, generally they wont stand in it. The problem is the other version isnt great either. Especially on Engineer, who currently clears condis quite well too, and has projectile denial. As for the uptime on mitigation, Flickering Shadow wont be active very much, and the others get ripped or corrupted. You will find yourself with not that much mitigation very often.

The ele one is also weak in DE but it is not that great in core either. The DE one is better then the core one just because you get multiple uses and the vigor.

Chill is pretty brutal on Eles, it affects their elemental attunements. Not exactly top notch, but quite potent.

To repeater, again I have no issues getting to use it in game. As I stated most classes will close on you.

And as I said, the ones that close on you burst you down. They are the ones to get the drop on you. You wont have much success trying to skill 3 into repeater against a Rev who immobilised you and is now killing you. Or on another thief who jumped on you with backstab, feared you, and is going to match your skill 3 with Shadowshots. Or on a Warrior who is going to keep CCing you. Or on a Mesmer who does the same thing as thief, but probably kills you. Even Weaver wont be great, because theyre gonna evade spam to prevent your skill 3. You need to burst. DE hurts your burst.

Again I swapped to core and stuck with it a long time after enhancements to SA and deadly ambition. This was using the TR version. The big miss is not the BT (downgraded in any case) , it is lead attacks. The other reason to take TR is INI but DE has more. Confusion is the third and that just makes you burstier as opposed to being able to applying sustained damage. Burstier fares worse against Necro and rev. They are much more able to deal with bursts of conditions then sustained.

Thats the point. Being burstier is the way you win. Youre not going to win the sustained fight, because other classes either burst you down or trivialise your conditions.

You spoke about engineers clearing conditions. When you have burst rather then sustained it easier for them. You speak to all the downsides about projectile denial etc and without understanding taking trickery does NOT change that. nor does it diminish cleanses. Added to that the steal in DE is not a projectile.

Only if they run Elixir C. Which they generally dont. Otherwise they have a much easier time clearing sustained condi damage than burst condi damage thanks to Prismatic Converter. And anti-corrosion plating if they play that version. Projectile Denial is something Trickery doesnt help with much, but you still get burst damage out of Bewildering Ambush, and you have more options for up-close attempts.

You claim you are not going to win a fight? I win fights every time I am in the game. I would not play a build where I could not win a fight.

Against a competent necro, or a competent Revenant, you will not win a fight, yes. They crush you. Like,

really

easily.

I win more fights in DE due to the fact it has more access to stealth and can survive longer in a match and when roaming has ways to escape outnumbered situations. When I was in TR spec I died more and would only win more against low cleanse specs. The more cleanses they got the less likely TR version was to win.

DE only has more access to stealth if it gives up valuable utility skills. When it comes to surviving or running away, Stealth is

far

less valuable than, say, Daggerstorm. Sure you survive longer in theory, but in practice you get bursted down before you can get your survivability online, and your damage simply gets outpaced.

You speak of burst in the TR spec. There a single condition add that lasts 3 seconds. It is confusion. Good players do not keep attacking when they have confusion on.. To lead attacks yes that adds damage but I also have far more might on an ongoing basis. The necro steal (20 bleeds) is Burstier. The malicious sneak attack (5 bleeds 5 torments) is burstier . 5 4 seconds base bleeds and 5 torment (1 second base) will do more damage then 6 3 second confusion stacks. The stolen items add plenty of burst specs and have the flexibility of using in one go as in apply 20 bleeds right off at max range or timing so that you can apply 5 bleeds, wait on cleanse apply 15 more. DE can reset the steal. TR can not.

Its not just the confusion. Its the teleport. On Trickery, you steal, skill 3, then use repeater, well, repeatedly. Quick burst the enemy doesnt have much time to react to. On the other hand, if youre using DE, thats not an option. You have to walk up to the enemy, hope they dont stop you in any way, and then skill 3 and repeater slowly. Unless you use Infiltrators Signet, but thats giving up a lot. And what do you gain? Stolen skills that apply condi to builds that make sure that that condi is never going to kill them, but instead is going to kill you? Sustain on a build that cant sustain against any competent build? None of that helps when youre a burst spec that cant burst.

You keep repeating the teleport part. One post you say it teleport then the next you say it burst. When I point out I have just as much burst with stolen items and the #1 malicious sneak attack. you discount burst. As i stated teleport 2 is a HANDICAP against a number of builds and I have no issues getting people to close on me. When I point out I can allow people to close on me, you reply with "they are just going to CC you when you use #3 . If they are going to CC you when you use number 3 it makes no difference if you on TR or in DE.

Your stolen items only help you burst the targets you lose against anyway. On the others, you have no real burst. Stealth requires you to give up too much, and even then Malicious Sneak Atack still pales in comparision to Shadow Strike into Repeater, especially since the torment will only last for a second. Teleporting is never a handicap, its a huge issue. The problem as I said with closing on people is that that makes them have the first strike, not you. The Power Rev will immobilise and obliterate you before you even have a chance to use Shadow Strike. The thief will blind you as he approaches then get a fear off using rending shade. The Warrior Bull Charges you and kills you while youre ccd. Whereas with steal, you have the first strike. You can instantly teleport, then near instantly hit with shadowstrike and start using repeated unload. They cant crush you with ease like they can when youre using DE.

I do not have to "walk up to the enemy" as only ranger and perhaps mesmer want to really stay at range. DH in fact tries to pull you to him. Warrior comes to you. Ele comes to you. Reve comes to you. Necro comes to you. I do not know what you mean about "using #3 slowly" in a DE build. it is not any faster in TR. Nothing in TR makes it faster to repeat. the Only thing faster is the first use of it then your steal is gone for 21 seconds. In that 21 seconds I can use the BETTER stolen items several times over and rest my steal and use again.

Ranger, Mesmer, Necro (both condi and power), Engineer, all of them can easily stay at range. Even some of the others can, though it less common. The problem however as I outlined is that its not going to work like you hope it does, with them walking up like good little dogs, then standing still so you can use your skill 3 and start killing them. No, when they get in close, youre screwed. They CC you, they burst you, they lock you down or they even outright take away your ability to get away or stealth. When you let them close in, you give them the first strike advantage. You need the first strike advantage to win.

You then talk about the applying conditions that the enemy is going to use to kill you while at the same time suggesting a strategy that is going to put on conditions that allow the enemy to use them against you. What are you on about? If your worry is necro or some other class turning the conditions apply against you then why the heck are you suggesting applying confusion and then porting to that necro to apply condition Being in TR does not change this., You can only kill people by applying conditions so how does being in TR in a condition build help you here?

How many times do I have to repeat myself? Ugh. My point isnt "trickery does it better". As I said, youre right. It doesnt. My point is that the one case you present for the stolen skills being better is the one build you never want to face because it hard-counters you. The only stolen skills that are better are the ones in matchups you never want to face. The ones in the matchups you can actually win are worse.

So let us look at the skills that "transfer conditions" to another person. The Necromancer main one is Plaque signet. It has 25 second cooldown at its range is LESS then the range from which a DE can apply those 20 bleeds. Further to that he Necro can not transfer against stealthed target. The other skills that transfer conditions tend to be "to nearby oppoents" or persons caught in AOE again easier if the person is CLOSED on you then at range. Deathly swarm does not work on people1000+ away. Putrid mark has less r range then your steal and it is much easier to avoid for people further away as opposed to ontop of you where it can be planted at the necroes feet. Same with arcane thievery. You outrange them with condition application and at range it easier to avoid.

Uh, Im going to assume youre not familiar with the build. The main one is Plague Sending actually. The other is indeed Putrid Mark. And Superior Rune of the Nightmare. The cooldowns dont matter. Sure, you can in theory steal at the perfect 1500 range, but then the necro turns around and walks away, and suddenly youre out of range. You will find you dont have the luxury of staying out of range. Especially if youre using the various cantrips you need to even cast it multiple times. They will easily transfer the conditions onto you, and then lose. But even if somehow youre able to avoid it ... they just clear them off anyway. No matter how you approach the matter, one thing remains unchanged. Its a matchup you do not win.

Suffer only has 600 range. The steal application is 1500 and so on. Virtually every skill that transfers conditions is much more effective at close range and when you teleport TO those enemies to apply conditions you are at close range.

See above.

You then compare daggerstorm to Smeld. I get more BURST conditions using shadowmeld and #1 then you will ever get from Daggerstorm. So is bursting conditions important or not? In the time you have your daggerstortm come off cooldown I can launch multiple malicious sneak attacks each applying more conditions.

Daggerstorm is there for survivability. Not burst. The burst comes from skill 3 and steal. Sneak Attack bursts much less hard than that, and requires giving up survivability and escape ability. And thats the issue. You give up a lot just to have worse burst, worse matchups accross the board, and only sustain on a build that cannot sustain.

[ferbz.6987]

Yo, babazhook, let it go, you are speaking to a wall that from the look of it he/she is basing all his/her conclusions based on no evidence but just speculations and about literal skill description (necros transfers conditions hence why you lose) - no offense unowen.

Also, I believe he/she is trolling. When I read his/her responses I hear a little kids voice on my head, no rationale. I want ma lolilpop! Again, not trying to offend unowen.

I'm with baba on this one.

[Sobx.1758]

@"ferbz.6987" you know that when you insult someone, call them a kid and mockingly say they "want their lollipop" and add "no offense", it doesn't make it any less insulting, right? If you don't mean to "offend" someone, then don't.

But both of unowen/baba should calm down already, the question was about viable wvw condi/cele build. It's already established that there is no good reason to use cele on thief, but there are some condi builds. Whether OP will use one or another at this point is NOTHING MORE THAN PERSONAL PREFERENCE. I don't see why any of you try to negate another one's build preference. Give out your opinion to the person that asked for it (like you already did) and get over it....or at the very least (and this is the most important thing in this whole thread :p ), remove me from the deeper quotes of the messages you're constantly quoting, because I don't want to get pinged by your responses here anymore :lol:

[UNOwen.7132]

@"ferbz.6987" said:Yo, babazhook, let it go, you are speaking to a wall that from the look of it he/she is basing all his/her conclusions based on no evidence but just speculations and about literal skill description (necros transfers conditions hence why you lose) - no offense unowen.

Or Im basing it on experience playing the matchup from both sides, having played most of the builds involved here in one capacity or another. Im very familiar with the matchup, both as the thief and the necro, and well aware that unless the necro messes up hard, he wins 10/10 times. Its really not even close, and ironically DE makes the matchup even more unwinnable because M7 gets fully corrupted.

Also, I believe he/she is trolling. When I read his/her responses I hear a little kids voice on my head, no rationale. I want ma lolilpop! Again, not trying to offend unowen.

Ironically thats because you are projecting. Youre the one who acts without rationale. So when a well-founded response that dismantles your belief gets presented to you, you block it out, going "nananananana I cant hear you". That is the little kids voice you hear. Yourself.

[ferbz.6987]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"ferbz.6987" said:Yo, babazhook, let it go, you are speaking to a wall that from the look of it he/she is basing all his/her conclusions based on no evidence but just speculations and about literal skill description (necros transfers conditions hence why you lose) - no offense unowen.

Or Im basing it on experience playing the matchup from

both

sides, having played most of the builds involved here in one capacity or another. Im very familiar with the matchup, both as the thief and the necro, and well aware that unless the necro messes up hard, he wins 10/10 times. Its really not even close, and ironically DE makes the matchup even more unwinnable because M7 gets fully corrupted.

Also, I believe he/she is trolling. When I read his/her responses I hear a little kids voice on my head, no rationale. I want ma lolilpop! Again, not trying to offend unowen.

Ironically thats because you are projecting. Youre the one who acts without rationale. So when a well-founded response that dismantles your belief gets presented to you, you block it out, going "nananananana I cant hear you".

That

is the little kids voice you hear.

Yourself

.

Mmmm, okay.

[saerni.2584]

I do so much more damage than you think possible. But whatever, I’m not here to convince you. Do what you will.

[Edu.6984]

I've decided to go SA-Trickery-DA with traillblazer gear. Between krait, udead, thorns and scavenging, which runes would you recommend ?