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Raids are not balanced when there is a 9-10k Difference between professions.


Josiah.2967

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:Classes should not be balanced around raids, raids should be designed around class balance.

Agreed and to be fair ... that is exactly what is happening in this game. There is a wide range of class balance, so raids have a really low threshold for success.

If at all, they try to do that, but aren't achieving it at all.There's a reason why almost every single raid boss is either guard or mesmer meta.

If raids are designed around classes, why is there no single boss, where you stack engis, or necros as most effective tactic available (meta)?

Because that's not what they doing. If it was true, they would have never hard nerfed epibounce.

But as time goes on, it's almost time for another pve balance patch (end of this month), let's see where this goes.

Another we love guardian and don't care if it's meta in all three gamemodes on various different builds?Or an actual balance patch that addresses some big issues?

Like reworking guardian quickness elite, that makes it easy to stack perma quickness without investing into boon duration (4guards +off Chrono, or 3guards+ranger with moa stance+off Chrono)

Or nerfing rangers burst power damage (while giving it sustained damage)

Or nerfing guard and eles Condi burst dmg (via burn, while giving it more slow ramp up damage (for example bleeds)

Or buffing necro to a extend, that it can compete with other classes dps. So people can play their favourite class while not feeling like dragging down the whole group

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:Classes should not be balanced around raids, raids should be designed around class balance.

Agreed and to be fair ... that is exactly what is happening in this game. There is a wide range of class balance, so raids have a really low threshold for success.

If at all, they try to do that, but aren't achieving it at all.There's a reason why almost every single raid boss is either guard or mesmer meta.

That doesn't make sense. The reason people can bring a wide variety of builds to instanced content is because the content has low threshold for success. Meta only talks about what is OPTIMAL to succeed. Those two things are completely unrelated. What is meta has NOTHING to do with how raids are balanced to allow for wide class balance range.

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@"Nimon.7840" said:But as time goes on, it's almost time for another pve balance patch (end of this month), let's see where this goes.

Already the yearly PvE patch? No I think they will continue to focus on sPvP/WvW a bit ;-)

Another we love guardian and don't care if it's meta in all three gamemodes on various different builds?Or an actual balance patch that addresses some big issues?

Like reworking guardian quickness elite, that makes it easy to stack perma quickness without investing into boon duration (4guards +off Chrono, or 3guards+ranger with moa stance+off Chrono)

If the issue is quickness, it's quickness that need to be adressed not especially the guardian. The guardian have plenty to be adressed thought...

Or nerfing rangers burst power damage (while giving it sustained damage)

I'm not sure it's the problem. Throught the years, the ranger's issue with balance have always been it's familiar and I believe it's a bit to much of work for ANet to balance (Well, who know, I might be surprised...)

Or nerfing guard and eles Condi burst dmg (via burn, while giving it more slow ramp up damage (for example bleeds)

Aaah, condition damage... The main issue of condition damage come from the fact that auto-attacks are "skills" instead of being standard regular attack common to all professions. This allow a high application rate of conditions promoting short lasting conditions over long lasting conditions. This in return make condition duration less important than it should and make cleansing conditions in PvP environment feel pointless due to the constantly renewed conditions. Burn just happen to benefit the most from such design, nerfing it could soothe some mind but ultimately it wouldn't fix the issue.

Note that elementalists can already use bleed instead of burn, this doesn't make them more balanced.

Or buffing necro to a extend, that it can compete with other classes dps. So people can play their favourite class while not feeling like dragging down the whole group

You perfectly know that it's more complicated than that. The issue of the necromancer is that most of it's tools are ill designed for how PvE group/raid encounters are designed. The thing that need to be done is less a matter of buffing the necromancer than a matter of making it's tools less ill suited for the encounters. And ANet's devs definitely try to do it, fractals instabilities are a great example of their efforts.

Another thing that need to be taken into consideration is that the necromancer is naturally more resilient when dealing damage due to the shroud. It's difficult to justify "competitive damage" on top of something that can deal it's peak damage while shielding it's health pool for extended periods of time.

All in all, fixing the necromancer would requiert a lot of work. Not that ANet don't have opportunities to add some simple change that would benefit the profession in PvE (like making boon corruption interact with defiance) but all in all the focus of the traits on improving damage while being "in shroud" instead of doing it while being "out of shroud" is probably the biggest hurdle they would have to face for the sake of "fairness". And that requiert work that they don't necessarily want to invest since they mostly answer sPvP rants with sPvP balance suggestions that don't go beyond: "reduce [X] damage" or "increase [Y] CD".

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Yoci.2481" said:Classes should not be balanced around raids, raids should be designed around class balance.

Agreed and to be fair ... that is exactly what is happening in this game. There is a wide range of class balance, so raids have a really low threshold for success.

If at all, they try to do that, but aren't achieving it at all.There's a reason why almost every single raid boss is either guard or mesmer meta.

Well, so that's one of those threads. For 5 pages people keep repeating pretty much the same thing that was already answered on the first page, but for some reason they don't understand that.It doesn't matter what is considered "meta", because raids aren't balanced around top dps charts. It's not a raid balancing problem, it's a player attitude probem. And the solution is as simple as creating your own squad instead of joining a sheep-leader's one.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Yoci.2481" said:Classes should not be balanced around raids, raids should be designed around class balance.

Agreed and to be fair ... that is exactly what is happening in this game. There is a wide range of class balance, so raids have a really low threshold for success.

If at all, they try to do that, but aren't achieving it at all.There's a reason why almost every single raid boss is either guard or mesmer meta.

Well, so that's one of those threads. For 5 pages people keep repeating pretty much the same thing that was already answered on the first page, but for some reason they don't understand that.It doesn't matter what is considered "meta", because raids aren't balanced around top dps charts. It's not a raid balancing problem, it's a player attitude probem. And the solution is as simple as creating your own squad instead of joining a sheep-leader's one.

Apparently, EVERY thread is a soapbox to complain about what is meta ... /shrug.

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there is no reason do some pve raid balance .. The raid is to closed. Yesterday I was try find raid run, no result, kp, li, kp kp kp kp .. training 50 kp //There closed burble and let them play inside how they wont, spend any resourse for that 0.5-2% is not any reason.After trying find raid run I back on wvw and get perfect difference how it that content is open, and accessible. No one can't say "you not have kp - no pips for you". Bye raids again for long time.

p.s as for me raid should be same Ascalon dungeon, but for 10 people. But not .. we have that .. so let it live inside kp burble without spend resource from anet.

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@"lare.5129" said:there is no reason do some pve raid balance .. The raid is to closed. Yesterday I was try find raid run, no result, kp, li, kp kp kp kp .. training 50 kp //There closed burble and let them play inside how they wont, spend any resourse for that 0.5-2% is not any reason.

Yes there is. Cause pve needs some kind of balance as well.But open world players will basically not notice, if their class is doing 3k more dps while having optimal buffs.Cause they will never ever have those kind of buffs.

So the only reason to do pve balance at all is instanced pve endgame content, being fractals and especially raids

After trying find raid run I back on wvw and get perfect difference how it that content is open, and accessible. No one can't say "you not have kp - no pips for you". Bye raids again for long time.

p.s as for me raid should be same Ascalon dungeon, but for 10 people. But not .. we have that .. so let it live inside kp burble without spend resource from anet.

And people complaining about li requirements don't even want to raid. They want to kill a boss here and there, but they are not putting in as much time as static groups. If they're really interested, they go, look for a raid learn guild, get their experiences there, and then join a static.

Lots of statics will let you join them, if you are willing to learn.

  • There's also very often groups that take you with them, without you meeting their li-requirements.

Lots of people join, without knowing boss mechanics, or join with very inappropriate builds, that have to much toughness for example (best thing I had was a full soldier ele)But you are joining a group with limited player space. You can't expect people to carry your a... All doing mechanics and dmg. While you do 10dps autoattack and wiping their group by not doing mechanics correctly.

That's why lots of groups want kp. They want a proof, that you can bring something to the group, cause for a lot of statics, raids are still "hard" content.

And for the better groups, the content is on farm status, so they don't want to waste a lot of time, as long as there's no new content.And then there's some people, that basically can't play the class in this content, they're enjoying the most, cause that class does a lot less dps than others.So if you buff that class, it might make it easier for the first kind of groups, that think that raids are still work to to to clear.It will also make the gamemode more enjoyable for players of the other kinds of groups, that just farm the content, wanna have a fun time with some people, but clear the content as fast as possible.

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@"Nimon.7840" said:Yes there is. Cause pve needs some kind of balance as well.for that?? if only 1-2% can touch that

But open world players will basically not notice, if their class is doing 3k more dps while having optimal buffs.3k is normal dps in normal build and nomal set. 80% stat combination have toughness or vitality. This is fail stats ? Don't think so. Just raiders don't understand gw2, or something wrong wiht raids.

Lots of people join, without knowing boss mechanics, or join with very inappropriate builds, that have to much toughness for example (best thing I had was a full soldier ele)good stats. You need check tank, if he not cap toughness and not use toughness food.. On soldier toughness not main stat, main is power, so check tank !!

While you do 10dps autoattack and wiping their group by not doing mechanics correctly.yes, I was told what any time modification and achievement whit speed kill should be removed from raid.

That's why lots of groups want kp. They want a proof, that you can bring something to the group, cause for a lot of statics, raids are still "hard" content.This is not "hard" , this is "closed." And keep attention that in gw2 we not have stat boost every half year, and can't complete these raids solo !

And for the better groups, the content is on farm status, so they don't want to waste a lot of time, as long as there's no new content.yes, you right ! 0.5-2% burble? so why we should worry them ??? They will farm ir anyway if it "farm"

And then there's some people, that basically can't play the class in this content, they're enjoying the most, cause that class does a lot less dps than others.if this is as you say have only "farm status" for 1-2% - they can make meta class and farm with less enjoy.

It will also make the gamemode more enjoyable for players of the other kinds of groups, that just farm the content, wanna have a fun time with some people, but clear the content as fast as possible.farmer want clear? and we ask helm to that elitare part more support ?? for that? this is seriously ???

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Giving it some thought. I really think a Grave Digger could use a significant buff. Increase the damage Grave Digger does at 50% damage, 25%, 15%. Kind of like Thief. That way it is a backloaded DPS spec and most of the damage is outside of shroud in that state.

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@lare.5129 said:...

You proved multiple times that you have no idea how this game works. Tank needs max toughness? For real? He just needs 1 more than everyone else which shouldn't be any higher than 1151 on most bosses when you have a soulbeast in the group.It wouldn't surprise me at all if some commanders have you on their blacklist since the stuff you post all the time just shows your lack of understanding game mechanics. You even did fractal cms for more than a year and still think that scourges and other bad builds are good in there. I dont even want to know what kind of abstrusity you try to play in raids if you think soldiers is a good stat combo. Hint, it was already bad during old dungeon days.

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Figure I'll throw my hat I'm the ring since this is something I care about but just didn't have the time to discuss. Let's see.

I do think the gap is a bit too high. This shouldn't be much of an argument, yet here we are. I'd personally be okay with 3-5k difference as I feel that's large enough for people to really feel rewarded for playing their elementalist complicated mega rotation. But the gap is much higher than that which is problematic.

As for raid fights specifically, Arena net could apply weakness of the bosses which could benefit specific builds. So bosses could and probably should have completely unique boons players can't get which can drastically change the fight's dynamic. These boons shouldn't make the fight impossible just more difficult so you could do it without a Spellbreaker or Necromancer for example but it might be difficult. However these mechanics are mostly meaningless if we keep mesmer's sword auto attack with a boon strip. This undermines the utility that the necro or Spellbreaker would bring so that should be removed. I'd suggest moving a boon strip to sword 3's teleport on the mesmer so it can keep the utility but it should never be on an auto attack.

As for Boss weaknesses we could have something like chill could cause a weakened break bar and/or the break bar shows up more frequently. There is also the possibility of something like an extra burst of damage based on the one applying the chill. Just as an example.

Of course my personal favorite would probably be skills interacting with the environment in unique ways. So let's say there's a mechanic where a pillar is summoned that summons ghosts and damages foes in its radius and the radius grows over time. Normally its difficult to remove but perhaps a necromancer could walk into it without death shroud and they begin to absorb it and gain life force, breaking it down quickly. They could still take the damage so it's still risky for them. Perhaps they take more from damage than one of the other 8 classes so it's a real risk for them to do this. Maybe we get a terminal where an engineer can hack a turret to turn on the enemy.

Maybe the above example is a bit too gimmicky, but it could be fun and they're just off hand examples.

As for profession balance, which we should go back to. The reaper is an easy class to use and learn. It is designed to he a tank and it is quite tanky. The issue is that it doesn't provide utility like the other tanks you could bring. Which makes it undesirable. I don't see a real way to fix this issue either. Taunt doesn't really do much in raids as it is so even if reaper did have taunt it wouldn't matter. What anet probably should do is rework Agro so taunt influences the threat and it should be clear who the boss is agroed onto. Having it be "who's got the biggest toughness" is probably the wrong way to go about it but idk. This is a bit beyond my depth.

Contrary to what people might think, Scourge is not an easy elite spec to use. Unlike reaper, scourge has a lot of nuance and quarks of its playstyle which I can only describe as a bit clunky(but super fun) and there are a lot of misconceptions in the community on how it actually works. Which has lead to raid website taking over a year to figure out what is optimal because of their combined low ceiling on damage output and their high skill requirement. Scourge does need a bump up for sure in its DPS build and if it has to sacrifice some party support for its DPS build this should be taken.

As for Engineer. Their condi rotation is probably a bit too complex for what you get out of it. I've used it quite a bit and its quite risky. For me personally, this rotation is much easier to pull off than scourge rotation even though I have more experience on scourge but the payoff is a bit finicky. It would be nice to see some of these rotations like engineer and Elementalist simplified since the issue isn't so much the complexity of the rotation as it just is the skill ordering and timing. Where scourge requires internal timing, resource management and skill priorities it doesn't have the skill bar bloat that the engineer and elementalist does. The subtle nuances of something like scourge are fine which you only get with experience but the means to master a engineer or elementalist being based on repetition is a bit of an issue in my opinion. I wont deny that the Elementalist rotation is more difficult than the scourge, it is. It's just more difficult in a less engaging way imo.

Even if the elementalist and others were made simplier in their rotation I would still say they should be higher damage than a class like a necromancer but lack in utility. Which they do not. I strongly disagree with the idea that if the dps was closer to each other that no one would take Ele or Guardian because there is no proof of that. This only happens when massive gaps are in the game such as during the berserker meta.

This issue also might not be as big if arena net went over and done a balance pass on Dungeons to make them more in line with their content of 2020. If the maps are too finicky to work with, throw them out. You have the resources and textures from them to reuse. Different builds and classes function differently in smaller groups which have to deal with mobs in different ways. Reaper might not ever be that good in raids but they could be amazing in revamped dungeons.

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@"Nephalem.8921" said:You proved multiple times that you have no idea how this game works.And I don't want. I have my vision and spread it. And I get success. So this is one of reasons why I like GuildWars2

Tank needs max toughness? For real? He just needs 1 more than everyone else which shouldn't be any higher than 1151 on most bosses when you have a soulbeast in the group.yes, tank should have max or near max value by mmo concept. GuildWars2 give you chance not do it precisionsly, but it not as rule.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if some commanders have you on their blacklist since the stuff you post all the time just shows your lack of understanding game mechanics.ofc some have. But I try do raids one week per year, so it is not "all". But how we see raid a 1% burble, so who knows? may be all.

You even did fractal cms for more than a year and still think that scourges and other bad builds are good in there.yes, 4 scourges and ministrel crhono or plaguedoctor rev is good choose.

I dont even want to know what kind of abstrusity you try to play in raids if you think soldiers is a good stat combo.it not very good, but it can be. Or you suggest only zek and viper ?? This is smell elitism.. shame on you !!!

Hint, it was already bad during old dungeon days.but magic find armor start was meta :))

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@Josiah.2967 said:Giving it some thought. I really think a Grave Digger could use a significant buff. Increase the damage Grave Digger does at 50% damage, 25%, 15%. Kind of like Thief. That way it is a backloaded DPS spec and most of the damage is outside of shroud in that state.

I think it would make Reaper boring and much more simple to play. It would just be a major buff.Gravedigger spam under 50%, with very high healing per attack from Soul Eater, while we can receive healing from allies and take hits from enemies without loosing damage.

Having high damage while our health is shielded is what allows to increase Reaper damage without make Reaper overpowered.

We have to avoid taking damage before entering shroud, to not loose 5% bonus from Scholar runes.We have to avoid taking damage while we are in shroud, to not loose a lot of DPS.We can’t be healed while in shroud, so we loose a very big amount of incoming support and often there is not heal for us when, after leaving shroud, we really need it.

Reapers that use Shroud to shield Health, are usually “bad Reapers”, and they do very low damage. They are also not really durable in fights (unless support is very good, but that has nothing to do with the strength of Reaper).

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I don’t want Scourge to have higher dps.

Scourge is the support spec of the Necromancer, and I don’t want it to be also our best DPS choice.

Scourge (in its condition version) is harder than Reaper (which is not really simple as some people claim it to be) to play well and I really hope it can be simplified, to make its difficulty more similar to the difficulty of our other elite spec.

Scourge difficulty is also a kind of difficulty that I find not healthy for the game, since it encourage to watch the skill bar all the time, paying less attention to many other things that happens around. We already have to pay attention to so many things.

Reapers and Scourges are both Necromancers, and it is generally not fun choosing a profession and seeing it become drastically different, and then even feeling forced by others to play the part of it that you hate (both for support and DPS).

It would make more sense, to me, having Reaper being the best DPS choice and Scourge the best support choice.

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@Black Storm.6974 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Giving it some thought. I really think a Grave Digger could use a significant buff. Increase the damage Grave Digger does at 50% damage, 25%, 15%. Kind of like Thief. That way it is a backloaded DPS spec and most of the damage is outside of shroud in that state.

I think it would make Reaper boring and much more simple to play. It would just be a major buff.Gravedigger spam under 50%, with very high healing per attack from Soul Eater, while we can receive healing from allies and take hits from enemies without loosing damage.

Having high damage while our health is shielded is what allows to increase Reaper damage without make Reaper overpowered.

We have to avoid taking damage before entering shroud, to not loose 5% bonus from Scholar runes.We have to avoid taking damage while we are in shroud, to not loose a lot of DPS.We can’t be healed while in shroud, so we loose a very big amount of incoming support and often there is not heal for us when, after leaving shroud, we really need it.

Reapers that use Shroud to shield Health, are usually “bad Reapers”, and they do very low damage. They are also not really durable in fights (unless support is very good, but that has nothing to do with the strength of Reaper).

I am just trying to find a quick and relatively easy fix.1.) You have to be alive for the first half of the fight, and still do good damage the first have of the fight. To maybe it does the most damage at 10%.2.) Let's say they buff Grave Digger damage at the 50% threshold damage by 20%. 5% of 20% is a 1% increase. I doubt anybody is going to notice the difference.3.) The Reaper rotation changes even more while the enemy is closer to death. In the end (where quite often more damage is going on) you will be doing more damage outside of using your life force. The time you probably want to use it to mitigate some of the damage. Meaning you are also more vulnerable to maximize your DPS potential.4.) Get rid of the cancel animation for the 300 DPS boost. (The above buff will more than justify it)5.) The theme of the Reaper doing more and more damage the closer the enemy is to death is cool.

Obviously we don't want the whole buff to be around Grave Digger. It would be nice if Axe did more damage...but it's to safe to make it do close to as much damage as the Greatsword. Warhorn 5 could use a huge buff to become part of our rotation again. It may not be perfect, but I think it is a huge improvement.

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@Josiah.2967 said:Giving it some thought. I really think a Grave Digger could use a significant buff. Increase the damage Grave Digger does at 50% damage, 25%, 15%. Kind of like Thief. That way it is a backloaded DPS spec and most of the damage is outside of shroud in that state.

@Josiah.2967 said:I am just trying to find a quick and relatively easy fix.

What are you trying to fix? You realize that if you want to close a 9-10K DPS gap with Gravedigger or just reaper in general, you would have to make some skills the most broken DPS skills in the game right? I mean, why would Anet break a class to that level to address a problem you already have a solution for?

Let's be honest here. Do you think a buff is going to get into the DPS inner circle for raids? Even if you somehow got the gap down to 4-5K ... you still aren't going to get into that inner circle because this already happened before a few years back. The solution here is not likely a buff to DPS because it will never be enough to get you teams how you are trying to get them with the people you aim to team with.

If you are claiming 9-10 K DPS is preventing you from teaming, then you need 9-10K more DPS, not 2,3 or 4.

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@Black Storm.6974 said:I don’t want Scourge to have higher dps.

Scourge is the support spec of the Necromancer, and I don’t want it to be also our best DPS choice.

Scourge (in its condition version) is harder than Reaper (which is not really simple as some people claim it to be) to play well and I really hope it can be simplified, to make its difficulty more similar to the difficulty of our other elite spec.

Reapers and Scourges are both Necromancers, and it is generally not fun choosing a profession and seeing it become drastically different, and then even feeling forced by others to play the part of it that you hate (both for support and DPS).

It would make more sense, to me, having Reaper being the best DPS choice and Scourge the best support choice.

The scourge being so different from reaper and core is what makes it so much fun. Reaper is just awful to play for us GW1 necromancer mains. Same with core necro

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@Lily.1935 said:

@Black Storm.6974 said:I don’t want Scourge to have higher dps.

Scourge is the support spec of the Necromancer, and I don’t want it to be also our best DPS choice.

Scourge (in its condition version) is harder than Reaper (which is not really simple as some people claim it to be) to play well and I really hope it can be simplified, to make its difficulty more similar to the difficulty of our other elite spec.

Reapers and Scourges are both Necromancers, and it is generally not fun choosing a profession and seeing it become drastically different, and then even feeling forced by others to play the part of it that you hate (both for support and DPS).

It would make more sense, to me, having Reaper being the best DPS choice and Scourge the best support choice.

The scourge being so different from reaper and core is what makes it so much fun. Reaper is just awful to play for us GW1 necromancer mains. Same with core necro

I’m playing GW2, necromancer is something different here and a lot of people love it. I enjoyed core necromancer and I find Reaper incredibly fun to play (as many other people). I enjoy playing support Scourge too, anyway.

I can’t play Scourge condition, but I’m not here asking for “imbalance”. Scourge is the support spec of necromancer, and making it its best DPS spec would be a terrible idea.

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@Black Storm.6974 said:

@Black Storm.6974 said:I don’t want Scourge to have higher dps.

Scourge is the support spec of the Necromancer, and I don’t want it to be also our best DPS choice.

Scourge (in its condition version) is harder than Reaper (which is not really simple as some people claim it to be) to play well and I really hope it can be simplified, to make its difficulty more similar to the difficulty of our other elite spec.

Reapers and Scourges are both Necromancers, and it is generally not fun choosing a profession and seeing it become drastically different, and then even feeling forced by others to play the part of it that you hate (both for support and DPS).

It would make more sense, to me, having Reaper being the best DPS choice and Scourge the best support choice.

The scourge being so different from reaper and core is what makes it so much fun. Reaper is just awful to play for us GW1 necromancer mains. Same with core necro

I’m playing GW2, necromancer is something different here and a lot of people love it. I enjoyed core necromancer and I find Reaper incredibly fun to play (as many other people). I enjoy playing support Scourge too, anyway.

I can’t play Scourge condition, but I’m not here asking for “imbalance”. Scourge is the support spec of necromancer, and making it its best DPS spec would be a terrible idea.

Why? Its glassier than Reaped and more difficult to use.

Do you have a real reason other than you don't think it should be? Scourge having support isn't a reason.

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@Lily.1935 said:

@Black Storm.6974 said:I don’t want Scourge to have higher dps.

Scourge is the support spec of the Necromancer, and I don’t want it to be also our best DPS choice.

Scourge (in its condition version) is harder than Reaper (which is not really simple as some people claim it to be) to play well and I really hope it can be simplified, to make its difficulty more similar to the difficulty of our other elite spec.

Reapers and Scourges are both Necromancers, and it is generally not fun choosing a profession and seeing it become drastically different, and then even feeling forced by others to play the part of it that you hate (both for support and DPS).

It would make more sense, to me, having Reaper being the best DPS choice and Scourge the best support choice.

The scourge being so different from reaper and core is what makes it so much fun. Reaper is just awful to play for us GW1 necromancer mains. Same with core necro

I’m playing GW2, necromancer is something different here and a lot of people love it. I enjoyed core necromancer and I find Reaper incredibly fun to play (as many other people). I enjoy playing support Scourge too, anyway.

I can’t play Scourge condition, but I’m not here asking for “imbalance”. Scourge is the support spec of necromancer, and making it its best DPS spec would be a terrible idea.

Why? Its glassier than Reaped and more difficult to use.

Do you have a real reason other than you don't think it should be? Scourge having support isn't a reason.

Scourge having support is a valid reason for keeping its DPS lower than Reaper. It is a clear advantage over Reaper, especially for Raids and other group contents.

Scourge is glassier than Reaper when playing solo, but in raids not having Shroud is an advantage (offensively, defensively and difficulty wise) for it (see my arguments about how easily Reaper can loose a lot of DPS if taking damage). Scourge is also already much better than Reaper at doing ranged DPS.

That extra ranged DPS also let Scourge be safer, while Reaper have to risk melee all the time to keep a high DPS. That necessity to stay melee bring another type of difficulty that Reaper have to face more than Scourge.

You are asking that extra damage because of Raids, where Scourge clearly already has big advantages over Reaper.

Scourge is necromancer and necromancer is not only Scourge. There are also many necromancer that hate Scourge.

Letting one spec be mainly for DPS and the other mainly for support can be called balance. Letting Scourge be the best at both things can be called imbalance.

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About raid : raid it not like dungeons for some reasons.. Ofc we can discus that this is no ok, but it is.Bosses have enrage time. It is smell fail. Some achievements also depend form time. This is not good...
So we can't take normal chill roleplay people to raid and get success..

So how we can fix that raid issue ? we have different ways..1)make armor stats less dependable from player total dps.2)make raid boses more dependable from mechanic, and more more less dependable from dps3) nerf raid, by cut 50-80% hp for all time, or one day per week ?Probably Dhuum cm will be more fun if cut 90% from him.

4) make 1 +2 +3

@Nephalem.8921 said:No it was not. Only very selfish people used it. Reduced dps to 0 and required the rest of the group to clear the dungeon for you. Using it in pugs was probably the worst someone could do.But it was standard. It was cool.

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@Lily.1935 said:

@Black Storm.6974 said:I don’t want Scourge to have higher dps.

Scourge is the support spec of the Necromancer, and I don’t want it to be also our best DPS choice.

Scourge (in its condition version) is harder than Reaper (which is not really simple as some people claim it to be) to play well and I really hope it can be simplified, to make its difficulty more similar to the difficulty of our other elite spec.

Reapers and Scourges are both Necromancers, and it is generally not fun choosing a profession and seeing it become drastically different, and then even feeling forced by others to play the part of it that you hate (both for support and DPS).

It would make more sense, to me, having Reaper being the best DPS choice and Scourge the best support choice.

The scourge being so different from reaper and core is what makes it so much fun. Reaper is just awful to play for us GW1 necromancer mains. Same with core necro

I’m playing GW2, necromancer is something different here and a lot of people love it. I enjoyed core necromancer and I find Reaper incredibly fun to play (as many other people). I enjoy playing support Scourge too, anyway.

I can’t play Scourge condition, but I’m not here asking for “imbalance”. Scourge is the support spec of necromancer, and making it its best DPS spec would be a terrible idea.

Why? Its glassier than Reaped and more difficult to use.

Do you have a real reason other than you don't think it should be? Scourge having support isn't a reason.

To be fair, 'glassier' and 'more difficult aren't good reasons either. The tools a class (or espec) gets is based on it's theme determined by Anet, not some notion of performance or 'filling a role' gap.

I think we can see that Scourge isn't a primarily DPS spec; if the numbers were stripped away and we focused on what it's toolset did when it was released, it become very clear what it was meant to do. Reaper ... that couldn't scream DPS spec more if it tried.

As normal, the core class design has made a direct link between sustain and DPS ... anyone that thinks we just peg another X DPS to anything Necro to make it 'raid-worthy' simply doesn't understand the class they play or the approach Anet uses to develop the Necro family of specs. This link makes Necro's unique in this manner.

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@Black Storm.6974 said:

@Black Storm.6974 said:I don’t want Scourge to have higher dps.

Scourge is the support spec of the Necromancer, and I don’t want it to be also our best DPS choice.

Scourge (in its condition version) is harder than Reaper (which is not really simple as some people claim it to be) to play well and I really hope it can be simplified, to make its difficulty more similar to the difficulty of our other elite spec.

Reapers and Scourges are both Necromancers, and it is generally not fun choosing a profession and seeing it become drastically different, and then even feeling forced by others to play the part of it that you hate (both for support and DPS).

It would make more sense, to me, having Reaper being the best DPS choice and Scourge the best support choice.

The scourge being so different from reaper and core is what makes it so much fun. Reaper is just awful to play for us GW1 necromancer mains. Same with core necro

I’m playing GW2, necromancer is something different here and a lot of people love it. I enjoyed core necromancer and I find Reaper incredibly fun to play (as many other people). I enjoy playing support Scourge too, anyway.

I can’t play Scourge condition, but I’m not here asking for “imbalance”. Scourge is the support spec of necromancer, and making it its best DPS spec would be a terrible idea.

Why? Its glassier than Reaped and more difficult to use.

Do you have a real reason other than you don't think it should be? Scourge having support isn't a reason.

Scourge having support is a valid reason for keeping its DPS lower than Reaper. It is a clear advantage over Reaper, especially for Raids and other group contents.

Scourge is glassier than Reaper when playing solo, but in raids not having Shroud is an advantage (offensively, defensively and difficulty wise) for it (see my arguments about how easily Reaper can loose a lot of DPS if taking damage). Scourge is also already much better than Reaper at doing ranged DPS.

That extra ranged DPS also let Scourge be safer, while Reaper have to risk melee all the time to keep a high DPS. That necessity to stay melee bring another type of difficulty that Reaper have to face more than Scourge.

You are asking that extra damage because of Raids, where Scourge clearly already has big advantages over Reaper.

Scourge is necromancer and necromancer is not only Scourge. There are also many necromancer that hate Scourge.

Letting one spec be mainly for DPS and the other mainly for support can be called balance. Letting Scourge be the best at both things can be called imbalance.

There are plenty of other specs which do both support and damage. Ranger and elementalist both do, mesmer does. This isn't unique at all. And it's not like reaper doesn't have more dps in places. It does. Its power DPS. But reaper is much more bulky in raids. You only don't think so because you're playing a healer scourge which is wearing much bulkier gear. So your perspective is warped extremely heavily.

If you're spending a lot of time in shroud you're probably doing the reaper's rotation wrong. Its 10 in 10 out. I've used reaper quite a bit in raids and it is absolutely more tanky than condi scourge. I've used both power and condi reaper. It outpaces scourge in power damage and falls behind in condi. As it should be.

But it's not like the reaper can't provide support either. It can. I've taken Signet of vampirism as an experiment before. Worked just fine as damage support and healing. Which made reaper even tankier which they were already ridiculous.

Scourge requires pacing. If you don't pace out your skills as a condi scourge your dps drops far below that of the reaper. What you're arguing is that scourge shouldn't be rewarded for their more difficult play patter because of an internalized bias against ot based on nothing.

And it's not even like I didn't make a suggestion in my above post to remove the support elements on demonic lore by replacing the condi conversation and barrier application so it can be focused purely on dps, I did. But if reaper was better at condi than scourge, I'd just stop using necromancer. I'd learn mesmer or just continue on my engineer.

Now neither spec is particularly glassy. But I do want a glassy necromancer spec. One that sacrifices health like the necromancer is supposed to do. But the closest we got to that is condi builds which only does that when something has gone wrong with their rotation.

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