When we nerf thief...no one considers this

[Teratus.2859]

@wevh.2903 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

When you get out played, then you will say they are too evasive.

SO you want a really squishy warrior, but you will say war is evasive.

Look, a game with only necro, guardian, and engineer is f-word boring.

Ranger has access to a lot of stealth too if you build for it, It's just not a core class mechanic like Theif's is.

But yes I agree, I'd rather see Thief loose combat stealth (gain perma or close to it outside combat for scouting) and a little mobility but recieve buffs to their damage, sustain and evade to give them far more of a Assassin style playstyle like in Gw1 which was a much better class imo.

People would still be able to ambush someone from stealth, but they'd finally be committed to any fight they choose to engage in and not be able to just run away as easily, though it will still be a possibility but their target will have a chance at running them down and killing them as they should be able to before combat is broken.

Is there something wrong about thief disengaging on a spvp scenario ? This is the pvp forum not the wvw my friend .

The problem exists with the class not the game mode.

still thief cant 1v1 thief cant take almost no 2v2 and definitely no 3v3 whats the problem disengaging from 1v11? every class can disengage of a 1v1 since u leave the node and disengaging 2v2 same stuff plus ur teammate gets ez kolled if cant disengage so its not class problem . i guess ur wvw player i can name endless stuff that are brokn in wvw actually xd

Because as i've mentioned multiple times in multiple threads the thiefs over abundance of mobility and harassment potential with stealth is the main reason why it's damage, sustain and defensive potential has been nerfed into the ground as badly as it has been over the years.

Every time I talk about this problem all thief players ever do is whine about people complaining about stealth and then go on to complain about damage etc.

No matter how many times I say I WANT! thiefs damange, sustain and defensive potential to get buffed in exchange for mobility and mostly stealth nerfs all thief players ever seem to take from those comments is "Nerf thief more"..

[UNOwen.7132]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

When you get out played, then you will say they are too evasive.

SO you want a really squishy warrior, but you will say war is evasive.

Look, a game with only necro, guardian, and engineer is f-word boring.

Ranger has access to a lot of stealth too if you build for it, It's just not a core class mechanic like Theif's is.

But yes I agree, I'd rather see Thief loose combat stealth (gain perma or close to it outside combat for scouting) and a little mobility but recieve buffs to their damage, sustain and evade to give them far more of a Assassin style playstyle like in Gw1 which was a much better class imo.

People would still be able to ambush someone from stealth, but they'd finally be committed to any fight they choose to engage in and not be able to just run away as easily, though it will still be a possibility but their target will have a chance at running them down and killing them as they should be able to before combat is broken.

Is there something wrong about thief disengaging on a spvp scenario ? This is the pvp forum not the wvw my friend .

The problem exists with the class not the game mode.

still thief cant 1v1 thief cant take almost no 2v2 and definitely no 3v3 whats the problem disengaging from 1v11? every class can disengage of a 1v1 since u leave the node and disengaging 2v2 same stuff plus ur teammate gets ez kolled if cant disengage so its not class problem . i guess ur wvw player i can name endless stuff that are brokn in wvw actually xd

Because as i've mentioned multiple times in multiple threads the thiefs over abundance of mobility and harassment potential with stealth is the main reason why it's damage, sustain and defensive potential has been nerfed into the ground as badly as it has been over the years.

Stealth has been completely irrelevant for the majority of theives presence in the game. S/D was viable a lot more than D/P, and S/D doesnt use stealth (because it only has in-combat stealth available which is trash). But yes, mobility and top tier dueling would be too much. But thief right now doesnt just lack top tier dueling. They lack +1 power. Which is one of the only 2 things keeping them relevant.

Every time I talk about this problem all thief players ever do is whine about people complaining about stealth and then go on to complain about damage etc.

Thieves are well aware of this problem. But there is no solution without nerfing shortbow 5, and by extent, removing a playstyle many enjoy. Im not selfish enough to do that. So at least thief should be good at +1ing. Which currently, it is not.

No matter how many times I say I WANT! thiefs damange, sustain and defensive potential to get buffed in exchange for mobility and mostly stealth nerfs all thief players ever seem to take from those comments is "Nerf thief more"..

Because you fixate on the wrong things. Stealth, outside of maybe something about out of combat stealth (Im thinking a max duration that cant be exceeded, maybe just disable stealth out of combat alltogether) is irrelevant and not only doesnt need a nerf, but the in-combat version needs a buff. As for shortbow 5, as I said, that would take away a playstyle people like. Its not an option.

[Teratus.2859]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

When you get out played, then you will say they are too evasive.

SO you want a really squishy warrior, but you will say war is evasive.

Look, a game with only necro, guardian, and engineer is f-word boring.

Ranger has access to a lot of stealth too if you build for it, It's just not a core class mechanic like Theif's is.

But yes I agree, I'd rather see Thief loose combat stealth (gain perma or close to it outside combat for scouting) and a little mobility but recieve buffs to their damage, sustain and evade to give them far more of a Assassin style playstyle like in Gw1 which was a much better class imo.

People would still be able to ambush someone from stealth, but they'd finally be committed to any fight they choose to engage in and not be able to just run away as easily, though it will still be a possibility but their target will have a chance at running them down and killing them as they should be able to before combat is broken.

Is there something wrong about thief disengaging on a spvp scenario ? This is the pvp forum not the wvw my friend .

The problem exists with the class not the game mode.

still thief cant 1v1 thief cant take almost no 2v2 and definitely no 3v3 whats the problem disengaging from 1v11? every class can disengage of a 1v1 since u leave the node and disengaging 2v2 same stuff plus ur teammate gets ez kolled if cant disengage so its not class problem . i guess ur wvw player i can name endless stuff that are brokn in wvw actually xd

Because as i've mentioned multiple times in multiple threads the thiefs over abundance of mobility and harassment potential with stealth is the main reason why it's damage, sustain and defensive potential has been nerfed into the ground as badly as it has been over the years.

Stealth has been completely irrelevant for the majority of theives presence in the game. S/D was viable a lot more than D/P, and S/D doesnt use stealth (because it only has in-combat stealth available which is trash). But yes, mobility and top tier dueling would be too much. But thief right now doesnt just lack top tier dueling. They lack +1 power. Which is one of the only 2 things keeping them relevant.

If that were true then the past 7 years of this game wouldn't have had hundreds if not more people complaining about it.You can tell me over and over and over again how irrelevant stealth is but it doesnt change the fact that myself and plenty of others encounter thieves using it constantly and excessively in combat.

Every time I talk about this problem all thief players ever do is whine about people complaining about stealth and then go on to complain about damage etc.

Thieves are well aware of this problem. But there is no solution without nerfing shortbow 5, and by extent, removing a playstyle many enjoy. Im not selfish enough to do that. So at least thief should be good at +1ing. Which currently, it is not.

No matter how many times I say I WANT! thiefs damange, sustain and defensive potential to get buffed in exchange for mobility and mostly stealth nerfs all thief players ever seem to take from those comments is "Nerf thief more"..

Because you fixate on the wrong things. Stealth, outside of maybe something about out of combat stealth (Im thinking a max duration that cant be exceeded, maybe just disable stealth out of combat alltogether) is irrelevant and not only doesnt need a nerf, but the in-combat version needs a buff. As for shortbow 5, as I said, that would take away a playstyle people like. Its not an option.

It's not the mobility.. being able to see a thief setting up for an attack or being able to follow their shadowsteps makes a great deal of difference than not being able to see them, that is the problem.The second they blink you have a chance to put up a guard/block or launch an interupt.. that is impossible to do from stealth for obvious reasons.Same goes for that annoying undefendable for morst classes, stealth finisher that theives are always doing.

Taking their combat stealth away and giving them the power boost they need to be capable dulists would make the class far less annoying to fight and far more enjoyable for those who want to fight them on an even footing.

The only thing that would suffer is the ability to harass with stealth builds.If thief players really wanted to duel based on skill then they would be on board with that.. but considering how many defend stealth im far more inclined to believe a lot of people play thief specifically because they just want to be that guy who runs around annoying people.. hence the reason thieves are hated more than any other class in the game.. while everyone loved Assassins in Gw1 which were fantastic duelists with great mobility.. exactly what thieves should be in Gw2.

If Stealth really is as bad as you claim then it wouldn't matter at all if such a change took place.. if anything you'd stand to benefit greatly from it.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

When you get out played, then you will say they are too evasive.

SO you want a really squishy warrior, but you will say war is evasive.

Look, a game with only necro, guardian, and engineer is f-word boring.

Ranger has access to a lot of stealth too if you build for it, It's just not a core class mechanic like Theif's is.

But yes I agree, I'd rather see Thief loose combat stealth (gain perma or close to it outside combat for scouting) and a little mobility but recieve buffs to their damage, sustain and evade to give them far more of a Assassin style playstyle like in Gw1 which was a much better class imo.

People would still be able to ambush someone from stealth, but they'd finally be committed to any fight they choose to engage in and not be able to just run away as easily, though it will still be a possibility but their target will have a chance at running them down and killing them as they should be able to before combat is broken.

Is there something wrong about thief disengaging on a spvp scenario ? This is the pvp forum not the wvw my friend .

The problem exists with the class not the game mode.

still thief cant 1v1 thief cant take almost no 2v2 and definitely no 3v3 whats the problem disengaging from 1v11? every class can disengage of a 1v1 since u leave the node and disengaging 2v2 same stuff plus ur teammate gets ez kolled if cant disengage so its not class problem . i guess ur wvw player i can name endless stuff that are brokn in wvw actually xd

Because as i've mentioned multiple times in multiple threads the thiefs over abundance of mobility and harassment potential with stealth is the main reason why it's damage, sustain and defensive potential has been nerfed into the ground as badly as it has been over the years.

Stealth has been completely irrelevant for the majority of theives presence in the game. S/D was viable a lot more than D/P, and S/D doesnt use stealth (because it only has in-combat stealth available which is trash). But yes, mobility and top tier dueling would be too much. But thief right now doesnt just lack top tier dueling. They lack +1 power. Which is one of the only 2 things keeping them relevant.

If that were true then the past 7 years of this game wouldn't have had hundreds if not more people complaining about it.

The number of complaints doesnt really mean much. Tons of people complained about P/P thief. A build that had never been more than a meme. Or about Staff Thief. Hell you have people right now complaints about Photonic Blasting Module Engineer. None of these are good. None of these are or were used at a high level. Still they drew complaints.

You can tell me over and over and over again how irrelevant stealth is but it doesnt change the fact that myself and plenty of others encounter thieves using it constantly and excessively in combat.

I mean S/D thief not using stealth isnt exactly a hot take. Even low level players didnt use stealth on it. No reason to, its a lot of initiative to get it and the stealth attack sucks. But sure, there are still bad thieves who havent learned yet that using stealth in-combat is a terrible idea, and there are bad players who cant punish something as bad as in-combat stealth.

Every time I talk about this problem all thief players ever do is whine about people complaining about stealth and then go on to complain about damage etc.

Thieves are well aware of this problem. But there is no solution without nerfing shortbow 5, and by extent, removing a playstyle many enjoy. Im not selfish enough to do that. So at least thief should be good at +1ing. Which currently, it is not.

No matter how many times I say I WANT! thiefs damange, sustain and defensive potential to get buffed in exchange for mobility and mostly stealth nerfs all thief players ever seem to take from those comments is "Nerf thief more"..

Because you fixate on the wrong things. Stealth, outside of maybe something about out of combat stealth (Im thinking a max duration that cant be exceeded, maybe just disable stealth out of combat alltogether) is irrelevant and not only doesnt need a nerf, but the in-combat version needs a buff. As for shortbow 5, as I said, that would take away a playstyle people like. Its not an option.

It's not the mobility.. being able to see a thief setting up for an attack or being able to follow their shadowsteps makes a great deal of difference than not being able to see them, that is the problem.The second they blink you have a chance to put up a guard/block or launch an interupt.. that is impossible to do from stealth for obvious reasons.Same goes for that annoying undefendable for morst classes, stealth finisher that theives are always doing.

Its entirely the mobility. If they stealth mid-combat, you take that window of free damage/cc and kill them. Thats why good thieves dont use it. You also cant follow their shadowsteps unless they go for in-combat stealth and give you the time to catch up. It has the opposite effect of what you claim. Also, stealth finishers? Really? Youve got things like stab finishers, invuln finishers, and you focus on stealth finishers ,the only category that every class can defend against (besides just aiming to where the thief was as he entered stealth, stealth doesnt cover the full finisher, so you can hit them as they exit stealth for it. Also, obviously, cleave). Like there is a reason you see more thieves go for the shadowstep stomp than a stealth stomp.

Taking their combat stealth away and giving them the power boost they need to be capable dulists would make the class far less annoying to fight and far more enjoyable for those who want to fight them on an even footing.

Im sorry, but thats incredibly naive. All that would happen is that all the fools who complained about in-combat stealth finally realise that it was bad anyway, and that now they made the actually good thieves stronger and more annoying. It would backfire so badly, it aint even funny.

The only thing that would suffer is the ability to harass with stealth builds.If thief players really wanted to duel based on skill then they would be on board with that.. but considering how many defend stealth im far more inclined to believe a lot of people play thief specifically because they just want to be that guy who runs around annoying people.. hence the reason thieves are hated more than any other class in the game.. while everyone loved Assassins in Gw1 which were fantastic duelists with great mobility.. exactly what thieves should be in Gw2.

Or rather, a large number of skills and traits become suddenly unusable requiring a huge rework of entire weaponsets. Thats a lot of effort for a change that doesnt improve the game in the slightest. It also reduces design space, and removes the potentially interest in-combat stealth builds like D/D that just need small buffs to make it less unusable.

If Stealth really is as bad as you claim then it wouldn't matter at all if such a change took place.. if anything you'd stand to benefit greatly from it.

Perhaps I would. But the problem, besides the obvious fact that its a lot of work and effort for a change that at best does nothing and at worst makes the game worse, is that in-combat stealth is interesting. Its currently bad because of how easily its punished, but with a few tweaks it could be a good and actually healthy method for the thief to have indirect defenses that still are vastly inferior to things like block, evade and invuln, but sufficiently effective at letting them reposition. Its also not only ignoring the only problem stealth has, out of combat stealth, its doubling down on it.

[NotFound.7813]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:People cry stealth, then they cry about ranger who is pretty evasive, but doesn't really have much stealth or spammable stealth access.

We look for a reason we lose, but if they made changes to stealth or removed it, thief would need a health boost, a change to their stealth attack mechanic, and a damage boost all around.

When you get out played, then you will say they are too evasive.

SO you want a really squishy warrior, but you will say war is evasive.

Look, a game with only necro, guardian, and engineer is f-word boring.

Ranger has access to a lot of stealth too if you build for it, It's just not a core class mechanic like Theif's is.

But yes I agree, I'd rather see Thief loose combat stealth (gain perma or close to it outside combat for scouting) and a little mobility but recieve buffs to their damage, sustain and evade to give them far more of a Assassin style playstyle like in Gw1 which was a much better class imo.

People would still be able to ambush someone from stealth, but they'd finally be committed to any fight they choose to engage in and not be able to just run away as easily, though it will still be a possibility but their target will have a chance at running them down and killing them as they should be able to before combat is broken.

Is there something wrong about thief disengaging on a spvp scenario ? This is the pvp forum not the wvw my friend .

The problem exists with the class not the game mode.

still thief cant 1v1 thief cant take almost no 2v2 and definitely no 3v3 whats the problem disengaging from 1v11? every class can disengage of a 1v1 since u leave the node and disengaging 2v2 same stuff plus ur teammate gets ez kolled if cant disengage so its not class problem . i guess ur wvw player i can name endless stuff that are brokn in wvw actually xd

Because as i've mentioned multiple times in multiple threads the thiefs over abundance of mobility and harassment potential with stealth is the main reason why it's damage, sustain and defensive potential has been nerfed into the ground as badly as it has been over the years.

Every time I talk about this problem all thief players ever do is whine about people complaining about stealth and then go on to complain about damage etc.

No matter how many times I say I WANT! thiefs damange, sustain and defensive potential to get buffed in exchange for mobility and mostly stealth nerfs all thief players ever seem to take from those comments is "Nerf thief more"..

still whats the problem in having high movility with a class that cant kill you 2v1 if u have some cd? seems like u whish making pvp a bunch of brainless fights where no one movers or rotates aroud just ppl spamming stuff on a node

[Buran.3796]

@wevh.2903 said:

A thief cant 1v1 and thief is a bad class on a 2v2 or 3v3 so whats the point of preventing or noy damage in stealth?

Thieves can beat (and oftenly they do) classes as Mesmers, Revs and Guardians on 1 vs 1, speacilly now that breakstuns were removed/nerfed while the stuns and dazes from thieves remains mostly the same and they are also the most mobile class in the game, so they are still crucial at decapping uncontested nodes. If revs can play a role as +1 without stealth I don't see the reason why thieves can't do the same, specially if stealth were removed entirely from PvP/WvW, in all the classes.

[NotFound.7813]

@Buran.3796 said:

@"wevh.2903" said:

A thief cant 1v1 and thief is a bad class on a 2v2 or 3v3 so whats the point of preventing or noy damage in stealth?

Thieves can beat (and oftenly they do) classes as Mesmers, Revs and Guardians on 1 vs 1, speacilly now that breakstuns were removed/nerfed while the stuns and dazes from thieves remains mostly the same and they are also the most mobile class in the game, so they are still crucial at decapping uncontested nodes. If revs can play a role as +1 without stealth I don't see the reason why thieves can't do the same, specially if stealth were removed entirely from PvP/WvW, in all the classes.When i say thieves cant 1v1 of course i mean sidenoders and duelers , rev is a teamfighter and roamer class not a 1v1er so thief can 1v1 them (even if thief counters rev this is a pretty cloase match) while mesmer is completely garbage this meta vs all stuff . Symbolbrand(dueler/teamfighter) got a lot of nerfs but anyway a decent guardian cant lose 1v1 agaisnt a same skill lv thief , more if guard is runnig sagebrand . The value of thief is sneaky decap stuff and sneaky outnumber ppl with high movility and stealth while trying to kill low cd/hp target on a TF , the high movility part MAYBE was a problem when thief could easily oneshot everyone at +1 on the last meta resulting on comps runnig two thiefs ganking eveyone aroud but right now a thief rarely can get a kill if the guy who plus one has some CD. U mentiones revs doing +1 right? rev can actually easily kill someone 1v2 easily than thief while rev has a high value at TF . Also rev can take good 2v2s when thief cant take almost any 2v2 . Rev only get pusnihed when doing bad +1 cuz revs cant disengage .

Of course thieves can play without stealth runnig S/D but this build gets hardcountered by D/P and P/D while also losing the "sneaky" part .

WvW consist on group fight between lots on players , none of the actual organized guilds of smallscale(cake for example) and gvg runs any thiefs on their comps ,WvW has A LOT OF BROKEN STUFF where deadeye oneshot perma stealth builds are one of them . but its only a meme build based on troll pvp 1v1 cuz there isnt a realistic objetive in wvw for solo players . This perma stealth deadeye buids are USELESS in pvp cuz here r not overtuned dmg (DE was a problem in pvp back when they could one shot ppl)

CONDI THIEF is the only actual problem of this class in pvp

In conclusion your whole argument is pointless

[Poledra Val.1490]

Ok so its safe to say now that condie thief will be around until the end of the season and Anet as per usual has failed yet again to live up to there oh so many promises of fixing clearly broken builds that are overperforming on every level of pvp.

Hate to say it but i almost bought into there promises of fixing things rapidly when there is something clearly broken.

What a shame.