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Is heart of thorns meant to feel this hard as a new player?


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For me it wasn't that hard. I play engineer though and tried the scrapper (elite spec that was released first - so supposed to use it in HoT I guess) which helped a lot. Story instances the Stavemaster Aryn boss was super annoying.

Besides that only some things that kept you from rushing through the map - when mobs attacked and hit you hard while you just tried to move past without killing them. (Stealth gryo from scrapper helped me a lot here.) Later with mounts (nowadays people get them ... at least raptor ... first) it seemed a lot easier in Auric Basin for example. (Moving fast and ignoring the pocket raptors ha ha.)

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The only ones I hate are the snipers. They seem to have an unnatural ability to get you no matter how you move, their trails last a long time, and then if you face many .... ugggg.

Use to hate the smoke dogs until someone pointed out how to easily best them. Wish I would have known sooner.

Maybe it is a bit harder, but you learn which enemies to run past -- looking at you mushrooms -- cause they aren't worth fighting, and which are worth taking on

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I remember back when the Mordrem first appeared in Tyria; and leading up to the release of the Silverwastes – it was the biggest learning curve for every player, it was almost a matter of re-thinking old tactics, and interrupts and knockbacks became vital for the first time in PvE scenarios. It was absolutely amazing.

I've only returned (computer issues, but by god this game is still the best mmo on the market) since the Silverwastes release and I noticed either the mobs are easier, I've retained all of that muscle memory, or they've been nerfed somewhat. I suspect it's a bit of all three.

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@Obliviscaris.6937 said:I remember back when the Mordrem first appeared in Tyria; and leading up to the release of the Silverwastes – it was the biggest learning curve for every player, it was almost a matter of re-thinking old tactics, and interrupts and knockbacks became vital for the first time in PvE scenarios. It was absolutely amazing.

I've only returned (computer issues, but by god this game is still the best mmo on the market) since the Silverwastes release and I noticed either the mobs are easier, I've retained all of that muscle memory, or they've been nerfed somewhat. I suspect it's a bit of all three.

They where nerfed. There was a mass of feedback when HOT came out and it mostly negative, some of enemies still exist unchanged, but for the most part it was reduced(Note, the nerfs where done before the expansion was even out for the most part.) I do believe they got nerfed later on as well.

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I initially thought it wsa hard. However, one key change has made the maps so much easier to deal with. Don't rush around the place. You can't skip mobs in the jungle. If you carefully trek through the map, neutralizing any threats you come across, it gets so much easier. What instakills you is when mobs stack up against you, which is very liekely if you rush around.

This is assuming that you have an effective build (gear included). If you don't, then I agree with everyone else. That is where you start. Your build needs to be balanced in the jungle. You need to be ready for any situation.

Side note, rushing through on a raptor could lead to some hilarious moments. I jumped through some brush and found myself with enough air time to question the poor decisions that led me to falling 789230147891074389201752305 miles to the ground. A truly self-reflective moment.

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@Dante.1763 said:

@Obliviscaris.6937 said:I remember back when the Mordrem first appeared in Tyria; and leading up to the release of the Silverwastes – it was the biggest learning curve for every player, it was almost a matter of re-thinking old tactics, and interrupts and knockbacks became vital for the first time in PvE scenarios. It was absolutely amazing.

I've only returned (computer issues, but by god this game is still the best mmo on the market) since the Silverwastes release and I noticed either the mobs are easier, I've retained all of that muscle memory, or they've been nerfed somewhat. I suspect it's a bit of all three.

They where nerfed. There was a mass of feedback when HOT came out and it mostly negative, some of enemies still exist unchanged, but for the most part it was reduced(Note, the nerfs where done before the expansion was even out for the most part.) I do believe they got nerfed later on as well.

That's kind of a shame.I suppose this was when the Souls series was at it's peak, so this kind of gameplay was thrilling, but niche, so I can understand it, seeing as new player now has the option of being funnelled to HoT, and past the Personal Story which is essentially a 'How to play' tutorial from 1-80.

Still a shame, nevertheless.

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@XatraZaytrax.2601 said:The only ones I hate are the snipers. They seem to have an unnatural ability to get you no matter how you move, their trails last a long time, and then if you face many .... ugggg.

Use to hate the smoke dogs until someone pointed out how to easily best them. Wish I would have known sooner.

Maybe it is a bit harder, but you learn which enemies to run past -- looking at you mushrooms -- cause they aren't worth fighting, and which are worth taking on

Might help the OP to get some basic how-to-fight-HoT-mobs tips for beginners, so here goes.

Snipers: Eventually you get the mastery that lets you see them 100% of the time. Until then, be alert for a red target circle over your head. That means a sniper has acquired you. Strafe left or right to reduce the chance you will be on the red line when it appears, since they shoot where you are when they acquire. Maybe move forward or back at the same time in case they are shooting from the side. If you see a red line in your way, dodge-roll over it.

Pocket Raptors: squish them with aoe.

Smokescales: Kite them out of their circles of invulnerability. They want to melee you, they'll come out if you move away enough. Then you dps them until they deploy a new circle, rinse and repeat.

Bristlebacks: Have some way to absorb or reflect missiles while you cc to wreck the blue bar. DPS like crazy when the blue bar is gone.

Mushrooms: Range the bastages down. Dodge or reflect any ranged they toss at you. It's not easy or fast (I haaaaate the mushrooms), but ranged is your safest bet. Still not easy, just less likely to have you eating dirt in seconds.

Chak: Varies with type of bug, read the text under their target bar to see what they do. Mostly stay out of the blue goo and dodge-roll to shake it off your heels when it does cling to you. There is a mastery to shake it all off in one dodge, but that's typically the very last mastery people bother to unlock in HoT afaik. So dodge as much as you can without using up your dodge energy for emergency use. The one chak that needs further explanation is the Bracer. Little flying one that orbits another chak with a light beam between them. It's protecting the other chak, and the only way to stop it is to cc it to wreck its blue bar. Stuns, knockbacks, roots, dazes, anything that hurts blue bar, use it on the bracer.

There are probably more mob types (like variants of frogs) to discuss but that's what I have first draft off the top of my head.

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Just make sure you have aoe burst ready for raptors and stay very, very far away from Bristlebacks. The Mordrem are really annoying and punishing, but you will soon learn their patterns and they shouldn't be a problem anymore unless you're hopelessly outnumbered. Chak can be tricky, you need the mastery to not get fully decimated by them. Luckily they die rather quickly.

All in all the first expansion is a HUGE leap from the base game, which has been proven to be beatable using only a ranger pet and never a single skill, lol.

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@"DisabledVelociraptor.7865" said:The leap in difficulty from the personal story to heart of thorns is insane... forgive me for complaining here ...

Complaining is why the forums exist!

But before you consider uninstalling, take a look around at the other players in the jungle: No one is walking. Everyone is on their mount and racing past the mobs and it ain't because they're in a hurry to see Lord Faren. Well, maybe. He's adorkable. But the point is that even the super elite vets still find the maps hard enough that they don't want to get caught out. You're not alone in finding the jungle tough.

Landscape- Avoid what you can. Even if you do become a super elite vet it's usually not worth the time it takes to clear out a horde of pocket raptors. Take your time with everything else. As the game ages you'll find yourself alone trying to retake a pact control point more often than not. Try to peel off some of the mobs from the group. Hit and run tactics. Consider yourself the Predator and the mordrem a group of 1980s muscle-heads with machine guns.

Story- Don't rush in and try to solo cull. Let Rytlock and the gang draw the aggro first. Dragon's Watch are your meat shields. The "take your time" advice hold true here too.

I feel this is important so allcaps- JOIN AN HP TRAIN. Not only will your friendly commander show you the how to get through the jungle and help you get "swole", a good commander will keep you informed all the way through. Especially if you admit that you're a newbie to the map. Being surrounded by folks who have done it before will be that helping hand you need. Once you make your way to the opposite end of the map you'll probably be feeling a lot better about your ability to handle things.

Good luck and remember: You ain't got time to bleed.

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@Rogue.4756 said:HoT was never hard. Perhaps you're playing above your experience level.

It depends. Many hero point are not soloable or would require extremely specific builds. Same for events. It is a major difficulty hike over anything before it.

Is it hard for a veteran player? No.

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Yes HoT was harder when it was first released, and while it isn't as tough as before it is still a place that you need to pay attention to your surroundings and avoid triggering to many adds if you can. All that being said you should really also start looking at your gear in that you are much better off making sure you have fully exotic gear (some rares as long as they aren't major amounts of stats like a chest piece or amulet and no greens or blues) and also check your traits out to make sure that they really help you on the damage and sustain at least until you get your footing.And make sure you don't to far ahead of yourself , Verdant Brink is rough and Auric Basin is somewhat tougher , Tangled Depths messes players up alot because you can turned around easily and also it tougher still, while Dragon Stand while tough you are generally going to be in there with a squad.

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@Etria.3642 said:Just ask a friend to join you.

@"DisabledVelociraptor.7865"Better option is to call out in map chat. There is always somebody that also need that Mastery, Event or Hero Challenge, so it shouldn't be to hard to find somebody that help you with those. Look in LFG if somebody are planning to do meta or event. You can also look up GW2Timer for when main event chain is happening.

https://gw2timer.com/?page=Chains

Use gear that have stats that work together. Condition damage and some expertise (for duration) helps a lot in a hostile environment where you need to avoid take damage or get hit from conditions yourself. Power is best for burst damage (but need a couple more attributes to get there), might (boon that boost both power and condi damage) are all good option to invest in for gear. Traiblazer have more defense and there are other four stat/attributes that might help you to survive better. Don't use a pure Berserker attribute (only have power, precision and ferocity as attributes - glass canon) as you then lack defence and have no real time to avoid taking damage, if you can't apply CC during that time. It depends on your profession and what you have access to what is best for you. But in general HoT you need time to learn what is what and it is best to go on defence until you know what to expect and can manage your cooldowns and control what damage you can take without getting killed.

Always have soft CC and hard CC independent on build as you will want to take down break bars. Soft CC is typically Blind, Chill and what you have access from as conditions (not all conditions do damage, but is still important). Hard CC often have long cooldown or cost (energy) and come often from skills on your bar. The are also limited to single target or up to five targets (Mesmer have access to Daze which can be traited to hit five from shattering as an example).

Condi is a good option when you need to avoid damage and at same time do damage on target. Direct damage (power) is better to combo with a lot of CC types, but that is hard to use when some enemies can go into stealth (de-target) a lot. You will over time learn their attack pattern and can avoid the worse part of it, but don't let enemies be able to put a target over you head (use invis if you have Mesmer, LB Ranger or Thieves among other professions have access to go into Stealth). Pick skills that cleanse (remove condition), apply chill (slow down targets attack and movement), torment (condition that does more damage the more target moves) are also a good option. And never pull too many enemies at once. That is the ground rule for HoT. Stay alert and keep the number for enemies that you know about in reasonable control.

Go for more vitality (increase health pool and give some more time to react or cleanse condition). Reflects are also good for ranged attack that are projectiles. Have some AoE or cleave (can hit more then one target).

Make sure to get your Gliding Mastery fully upgraded as you then can jump away from damage or change path with less enemies targeting you and combine it with mushroom jumping etc. You will feel that HoT is not that difficult when you have more tools like this to get around.

After looking at that video above I would just add that there is some creatures (like Tangle Depths) that use a special kind of Conditions that you can not cleanse with normal tools, until you get that Mastery which you use to dodge to cleanse that poison (purple icon) where you have your other boon and conditions. There is also one Hero Challenge where you need to glide down and interact while you take damage from this special poison. Don't try to get this done until you have open that Mastery as is will be frustrating to try to do this as you can not move out of that poison or out heal its damage. There are certain things that work in this way in this game and the only way to deal with it is to get the Mastery you need.

As for gear: there are some gear that you can buy for Karma, so you shouldn't have too much trouble to find exotic gear, if you have been playing in core Tyria before you went to HoT maps.

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@DisabledVelociraptor.7865 said:The leap in difficulty from the personal story to heart of thorns is insane... forgive me for complaining here but this is kitten near unenjoyable.. I wish there was some kind of difficulty setting for instances because I just want to experience the story without feeling like i'm being completely crushed by everything

I think most of us have felt this way when we first get that slap in the face that is HoT's difficulty. It's particularly rough if you did not play Season 2 where there was a slightly more gradual ramp in the difficulty curve as @"Randulf.7614" pointed out.

In order to give you better advice than the lazy "just bring a friend" meme:1.What class are you playing?2.Would you share your build with us?

  1. What kind of gear do you have on?
  2. Did you find the core Personal Story challenging in any way?
  3. Have you played Season 2?

Build and gear play a very big part in your performance in this game. Having a build with a few synergies in it can make the encounters MUCH easier.Give us an idea of what you are running and I am sure you will have a half dozen people offering you more targeted advice than the tired cliche of "bring other people".

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@"Mortifera.6138" said:It was meant to be played with groups (more than one person taking down a mob), but the player base has moved on, as it’s no longer the latest content.

In one way you are right and in another you a wrong. Yes a lot can be done when there is a group or zerg around, but as always when there is a disorganised groups (even player that aren't grouped up with party or squad tool - those called PUGs). It reduces the number of active NPCs that are hostile or can turn hostile when there is more players around.

To illustrate this five player have a skill that each can hit 5 targets. Meaning 25 targets can be hit so each player don't need that much damage kill a mob of 25 targets. With only one player around it would be overwhelming to keep up with cooldowns and to have enough damage to kill the same amount of targets. There is also synergies that you lack when there is only one player or two player around (as boon sharing often have a limited range) and blasting combo fields need some coordination to be useful.

Add to this the environmental damage from vines casting ranged poison projectiles and those big rolling creatures that can knock down (or interrupt skills), then things get more complicated. There have also been changes to Stability (boon) which could reduce the impact of CCs from creatures which in turn make this harder to avoid.

Our damage have also been reduced or changed in general from when HoT where released until today which also make it harder for new player to do the same thing which the first generation that entered HoT maps have done when there was more players around, they had more base damage and they where hunting for rewards. I don't know how our healing have changed since then, but it also have en impact on how maps feels when you suddenly have to deal with a large damage spikes. Most older player only go there now to farm for some weapon collection, mats or do some "easy" event chains. They don't stay in these maps which also force maps to create new empty maps when they leave for next event chain in other maps like PoF or Ice brood Saga.

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@Obliviscaris.6937 said:

@Obliviscaris.6937 said:I remember back when the Mordrem first appeared in Tyria; and leading up to the release of the Silverwastes – it was the biggest learning curve for every player, it was almost a matter of re-thinking old tactics, and interrupts and knockbacks became vital for the first time in PvE scenarios. It was absolutely amazing.

I've only returned (computer issues, but by god this game is still the best mmo on the market) since the Silverwastes release and I noticed either the mobs are easier, I've retained all of that muscle memory, or they've been nerfed somewhat. I suspect it's a bit of all three.

They where nerfed. There was a mass of feedback when HOT came out and it mostly negative, some of enemies still exist unchanged, but for the most part it was reduced(Note, the nerfs where done before the expansion was even out for the most part.) I do believe they got nerfed later on as well.

That's kind of a shame.I suppose this was when the Souls series was at it's peak, so this kind of gameplay was thrilling, but niche, so I can understand it, seeing as new player now has the option of being funnelled to HoT, and past the Personal Story which is essentially a 'How to play' tutorial from 1-80.

Still a shame, nevertheless.

The Silverwastes mobs were nerfed heavily with the release of Heart of Thorns, which made the jump from Season 2 to Heart of Thorns even worse for newer players

Mordrem Wolves used to 1-shot players when hitting from behind or the sides, it was essential to kill them fast, use crowd control, or don't let them flank you. And unlike Pocket Raptors they had loads of health. Further, they tend to attack in groups AND on top of that use Retaliation, so you kill yourself if you use area of effect skills to kill a lot of them at once. Their damage was nerfed so much that they no longer deal much more damage when flanking and instead of Retaliation they use Swiftness... yes they have a 2 second cast skill that provides them Swiftness. If you want to remember the "good old days" of the Mordrem Wolves go to Iron Marches, there is a Veteran Mordrem Wolf there that uses the old mechanics, probably some developer forgot to nerf that one. They made Pocket Raptors look like jokes, but alas they are no longer available and players still hate the Pocket Raptors instead

Then we got Mordrem Thrashers. Those spinning vines that leave a trail of poison, cripple and torment. Initially they were invulnerable unless you hit them from behind, as they were evading every attack from all other sides. So you had to let them spin towards you, evade them, and hit them from behind, from the poison/torment area. But they were teaching players positioning and how to avoid well telegraphed attacks. Yet to this day you see players being hit by things like charging mushrooms. How did they nerf these? Simple, they removed their evasion while spinning, they are vulnerable from anywhere.

A more light version was the beetle. The beetle was invulnerable from the front too, so you had to let them charge, then sidestep and attack from the side or the back while they were recovering. Or use crowd control on them (they flipped over) which also made them vulnerable. There was that event in Dry Top that required collecting trash from beetles, it was fun watching all the players auto attacking the beetles and doing no damage. Just like the Thrasher, they removed the invulnerability from the front so they are just "regular" mobs now.

With so many mobs that were invulnerable and required some thought process to deal with, it was surprising that so many players had issues with Smokescales, which, just like those older mobs, have an "invulnerability" phase too. Not to mention, compared to the older powerful mobs, Heart of Thorns mobs have no health, Pocket Raptors die if you sneeze at them, and Smokescales die with a single hit from a Thief Backstab. I believe it's mostly because those mobs appeared only in Dry Top and Silverwastes, which were mostly done in big squads, so those in in-vulnerabilities were hardly felt by a lot of players. They saw mobs getting killed and thought they were doing something to them, when it reality they weren't doing anything.

This turned longer than expected, but it's good to remember how things used to be and how people call Heart of Thorns mobs "hard" as if they never fought the original Mordrem.

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yea, they would prolly be better off if they removed it from the story and just made it a endgame instance for farming.i remember the mass exodus when they released it, it wasnt pretty.if you unlock springer first , it will be MUCH easier. and of course, you have to change your toons...both gear and build.in other words: you cant play the way, you used to

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It can be hard for a new player. But in time when you return with knowledge, gear and skill you will probably appreciate the difficulty and that everything doesn't just die in a second. Makes the maps more engaging.Even most if not all hero points can actually be soloed if tackled correctly. For now don't be afraid to ask for help.

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@Rogue.8235 said:I initially thought it wsa hard. However, one key change has made the maps so much easier to deal with. Don't rush around the place. You can't skip mobs in the jungle. If you carefully trek through the map, neutralizing any threats you come across, it gets so much easier. What instakills you is when mobs stack up against you, which is very liekely if you rush around.

That's now. At launch, the mob density was bigger and the respawn rates were faster. It was easy to aggro a new mob just bu dodging the attack from the current one. And of course aggro ranges of HoT mobs are bigger than those from core (although still smaller than those of PoF mobs).

This is assuming that you have an effective build (gear included). If you don't, then I agree with everyone else. That is where you start. Your build needs to be balanced in the jungle. You need to be ready for any situation.Not balanced, actually. HoT was where the balanced builds stopped being useful - you needed to get all offense, because if you weren't killing opponents fast enough, you'd get swamped in them very, very fast. The best strategies on dealing with enemies in HoT all revolve around the concept of overkill.

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@otto.5684 said:

@Rogue.4756 said:HoT was never hard. Perhaps you're playing above your experience level.

It depends. Many hero point are not soloable or would require extremely specific builds. Same for events. It is a major difficulty hike over anything before it.

Is it hard for a veteran player? No.

Mostly no. I have soloed all hero points except the Balthazar hp. I imagine there are plenty of players way better than myself who can even solo that one. I'm not a great player and I solo ALL of gw2.

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