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"Remove Amulets, increase cooldown by 500%, etc" - Anet never learns


Tao.5096

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I have other idea - they changes is not do for fix some "problems". There is no any problems for maintream. If you feel it -change build, class, tactic, game .. No any path will fix something. This is balance, what men only changes for changes, bot not for some useless equality.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"mistsim.2748" said:Big brain fact - balancing is easier when there are less things to balance.

Actually this isn’t a fact.

Take Nature as a real life example, of an extremely diverse system that is able to self balance itself. By extremely diverse, we are talking trillions if not near infinite things that Nature has to deal with, and yet we have a planet that can self sustain itself quite well for billions of years.

The exact definition of balance means that two (or more) things have to be equal. This is an inherently impossible task because two things that are different can never be equal until they are the same.

This has to do with the study complexity theory, something probably to big brained for you.

Given the trend of these balance patches, it’s easy to predict why they continue to face harder and harder balance issues, going now as far as removing nearly all the amulets. Instead of looking at natural balance systems that are exhibited in nature (which is balance by way of diversity) they tend towards this other form of balance which simply doesn’t work in highly complex/diverse systems like gw2.

Nope, when it comes to problem solving it really is a fact.

It’s not. That’s literally what complexity theory is about. It’s about chaotic (nearly unsolvable behavior) that arises from very simple initial conditions or constituents. It’s a subset of chaos theory.

No, it's not even close to related to complexity theory.

The devs know every element they put in the game, there are no "unknowns".

The more you add, the more you have to balance.

There is no "uncertainty".

Please don't fling around concepts to try and prove a point.

This is not nature.

It is a construct.

More things means the devs added more things.

If they are unable to solve the math, the simplest thing to do is remove "the things".

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@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:Oh yeah, bringing unholy sanctuary in line with other lifesaving passives is such a bad move (oh wait, it still has a 3min shorter cd)

I think we all agreed that 5 minute cooldowns were ridiculous, and 2 minutes is still really long too, especially since we can't see the CD of traits (Anet plz fix that).

The 5 min cd was because the trait is being removed/changed. But the balance team isn't the one that changes those things.

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@"Crab Fear.1624" said:No, it's not even close to related to complexity theory.

The devs know every element they put in the game, there are no "unknowns".

Sorry, but It’s kinda easy to tell when someone just googles something for less than 10 minutes and then pretends to be able to speak on the subject as if they are an expert. I’ve been studying it for years. So you have to try a little harder cause I can see right through you.

But I’m rational. Let me give you a brief introductory high school level 101 to complex and chaos systems so that you at least know what the subject is even about and how it works. then why it applies to guild wars 2.

Chaos is complex behavior that arises when two or more things have nearly the same initial conditions due to divergence of exponential functions. Divergence is an inevitable consequence of exponents, and it’s because of this quality that chaotic behavior shows up in deterministic systems.

Chaos Theory was actually created to explain this divergent behavior specifically to address why deterministic systems create wildly varying and seemingly random behaviors. With the main idea being that randomness is an inevitable consequence of the divergent properties of exponential functions in these deterministic systems.

Back in Newton’s days when physics was described by determinism, Newtons deterministic equations made sense at small time scales, but when applied to larger time scales would yield far different and divergent outcomes. This was the infamously titled 3 body problem that he had trouble solving, one of the reason he needed to invent calculus and he eventually took this problem to the grave. Only centuries later when complexity systems and chaos theory were pioneered, were they truly solved.

Divergence is a mathematical inevitability of deterministic systems and really has nothing to do with randomness. Chaos Theory is also responsible for finding reoccurring patterns and fractal structure in divergences. This where the term “butterfly” comes from as a description of the visual representation of The Lorenz Attractor.

To be more clear,

. As wolfs eats rabbits, the wolf population exponentially grows, and the rabbit population exponentially shrinks. When the rabbit population gets too small the wolf population starts running low on rabbits to eat and the wolf population begins to exponentially decrease and the rabbit population begins to exponentially increase, and this feedback loop reoccurs indefinitely. This pattern is chaotic but also exhibits cyclic patterns like the Lorenz attractor.

Complex systems is not just “a concept” it is a serious field of study that has applications in nearly every field that exists today. In an interview with The Sims creator revealed that he studied and hired complex systems analysts to help create the game. This is actually fairly common in sandbox games like GTA, and Garry’s Mod and other games that want to simulate real world complex behavior.Watch this entire lecture from Will Wright (The Sims creator) You can skip to 29:55 and watch through the Dynamic's section where he talks more about Complexity, Chaos and Competition (59:28-1:01:50), Autonomous Agents and Emergence (40:59), and pretty much everything I've said thus far in the discussion

One such game set out to prove that with nothing but a few simple rules, you can create vast complexity...Conways Game of Life is literally the proof that games with simple set of deterministic constituents can create vast complexity.

Guild Wars 2 seems to be no different. It shares many commonalities with divergent and complex behavior. With a vast reservoir of skills to pick, the number of combinations is exponentially vast. As players pick and choose which traits and abilities to pick and how they are played in tandem, the initial conditions for each player always vary by some margin and end up creating complex behavior. Again, chaos and complexity are results of divergent exponential functions.

Even if everyone is given nearly the same set of initial conditions (everything being homogeneous) you can still see complex and chaotic behaviors arise. This is how games like Fortnite work.

PS...Edited to cite sources.

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Bill Nye the science guy putting way too much thought into it. ^

Bottom line the game is 8 years old and hasn't achieved any semblance of balance. In 8 years they havnt settled into a 1.0 state. I come back every couple years and they're still messing around with class identities.

It isn't rocket science. Other companies are managing fine. I just don't think this dev team gets it. I mean how many more years do they need to get PvP to a 1.0 state where the class identities are locked in and people can finally learn the game and meta? It shouldn't be in this much flux 8 years in.

Wall of text science doesn't prove anything. All you need to do is take a step back and look at the populations and financials of other competing games. All of which are bigger and more successful than GW2.

There's no secret sauce. They just don't have the manpower or money to finish PvP. So they poke at it with % changes and hope for the best.

You're giving them far too much credit with the complexity argument. No. This is a company thats on maintenance mode with a small team working on LW episodes. This is a team that has seen tons of layoffs and simply doesn't have the resources or desire to finish the game mode.

Whatever roadblocks you think they need to over come are entirely self imposed through bad design decisions.

I think it's pretty telling what kind of budget the skeleton PvP team is working with when after 8 years, we're still playing the same tired game mode and maps. This alone tells me they had no intentions of ever taking it seriously.

I also won't subscribe to the complexity argument because they allocated resources to create raids across 2 expansions. That's a massive brunt of your budget being allocated to an extremely niche game mode.They were willing to gamble on raids despite promoting their game as an alternative to raid-centric mmos back in 2012.

But PvP still feels like it's in early alpha.....

It's poor management and resource allocation not some complex hierarchy of code and systems. They placed a higher value on chasing an entirely new demographic through raids than they have on an existing game mode that had an existing player base.

Blinded fanboy or not, any intelligent consumer had to have realized there was going to be a massive shift in development focus back when they hired a raid designer from blizzard. That's where all your potential PvP development money went. It isn't being lost in some next gen level coding.

There's no magic in games. It's just money and their willingness to spend it.

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