Conditions need a Damage Nerf as well!!!

[UNOwen.7132]

@Axl.8924 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

quote me

You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if

thief

does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree.

quote me

"the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell."

"ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened".

Or if we take things from other threads, how about "I have 1 condi cleanse every 30s and im doing guchi".

Oh or my personal favourite, "condi builds cant do that other then some niche or specific cases like burn buard or mass confusion from condi mesmer into you hurting yourself with confusion.". Yeah apparently when Mesmer kills you with confusion its you hurting yourself. When thief does it, its thieves fault. Cognitive dissonance as a result of irrational anti-thief bias. Nothing more.

, as usual, you fail to read and comprehend what is written, case closed.

Translation: "I have no answer and would rather keep my cognitive dissonance, so I will try and deflect". So let me ask this. Why is Mesmers confusion burst fine, but Thieves isn't? Mesmers aren't any avoidable after all. In your eyes, it's fine because it only does damage if the opponent spams like an idiot, but the same is true for thief, yet you have a problem with thief (remember that video where the guy died to thief steal burst, but only because he lost 9k hp from using abilities through the confusion?). The simple truth is that the same thing you just ardently defended becomes a problem, just because thief used it. All because you have an irrational bias against the thief.

You would have to overhaul sustainabilities and other stuff, and it might not be possible due to complications.

Not really. The same tools power builds have available are, largely, available to condi builds as well. The only exceptions are weapon skills, but you would need to change those anyway.

See conditions have to deal damage and kill you, and generally speaking there are maybe a couple of actual specs that can burst you fast enough with conditions to kill you.

I cant think of any that cannot in the current state, unless you burst cleanse. Condi Guard, Thief, Mirage, Rev all burst hard. Even Core Engineer and Warrior would, if they werent terrible.

Your best bet is to probably change the problematic specs and leave the others alone. Suppose for instance C rev wasn't a problem and it gets hit with a massive condi nerf affecting a certain amount of its builds for pve and SPVP, well the players would be furious and you would possibly risk having ANET lose even more people for PVP.

That A, just delays the neccessary change, and B, keeps conditions binary. Besides, its entirely possible to change conditions while preserving PvE builds, most are split anyway.

I'm not sure how good Condi thief is, but I fear for them, I worry that they will get destroyed in conditions, and for those who say good, think again, because your spec could be next on the chopping block.

Oh that build is gonna get nerfed for sure, its a thief build, the threshold for being nerfed is lower for them (Pistol/Pistol got nerfed for example). But thats besides the point.

[Axl.8924]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

quote me

You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if

thief

does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree.

quote me

"the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell."

"ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened".

Or if we take things from other threads, how about "I have 1 condi cleanse every 30s and im doing guchi".

Oh or my personal favourite, "condi builds cant do that other then some niche or specific cases like burn buard or mass confusion from condi mesmer into you hurting yourself with confusion.". Yeah apparently when Mesmer kills you with confusion its you hurting yourself. When thief does it, its thieves fault. Cognitive dissonance as a result of irrational anti-thief bias. Nothing more.

, as usual, you fail to read and comprehend what is written, case closed.

Translation: "I have no answer and would rather keep my cognitive dissonance, so I will try and deflect". So let me ask this. Why is Mesmers confusion burst fine, but Thieves isn't? Mesmers aren't any avoidable after all. In your eyes, it's fine because it only does damage if the opponent spams like an idiot, but the same is true for thief, yet you have a problem with thief (remember that video where the guy died to thief steal burst, but only because he lost 9k hp from using abilities through the confusion?). The simple truth is that the same thing you just ardently defended becomes a problem, just because thief used it. All because you have an irrational bias against the thief.

You would have to overhaul sustainabilities and other stuff, and it might not be possible due to complications.

Not really. The same tools power builds have available are, largely, available to condi builds as well. The only exceptions are weapon skills, but you would need to change those anyway.

See conditions have to deal damage and kill you, and generally speaking there are maybe a couple of actual specs that can burst you fast enough with conditions to kill you.

I cant think of any that cannot in the current state, unless you burst cleanse. Condi Guard, Thief, Mirage, Rev all burst hard. Even Core Engineer and Warrior would, if they werent terrible.

Your best bet is to probably change the problematic specs and leave the others alone. Suppose for instance C rev wasn't a problem and it gets hit with a massive condi nerf affecting a certain amount of its builds for pve and SPVP, well the players would be furious and you would possibly risk having ANET lose even more people for PVP.

That A, just delays the necessary change, and B, keeps conditions binary. Besides, its entirely possible to change conditions while preserving PvE builds, most are split anyway.

I'm not sure how good Condi thief is, but I fear for them, I worry that they will get destroyed in conditions, and for those who say good, think again because your spec could be next on the chopping block.

Oh that build is gonna get nerfed for sure, its a thief build, the threshold for being nerfed is lower for them (Pistol/Pistol got nerfed for example). But that's beside the point.

clustering the problematic condis with nonproblematic ones, would delete certain condi specs all together and stifle variety.

Imagine for instance some power builds are problematic let's say for instance necro is doing too much damage and a warrior isn't and let's say weaver is and somehow holo isn't.

Hitting warrior and holo would be stupid because you make them weak and break them.

It's wiser and better to only touch what is necessary to be touched, no more no less, and even then, when you touch something, you could break it. Class balance is complicated, which is why no PVP game I've seen has the absolutely perfect balance.

Not everything needs to be slashed and burn and not everything has to be hit with a chainsaw, and its probably better to use a scalpel if you understand my metaphor than using a chainsaw.

Using a chainsaw is why ANET got into such big trouble with the balance in the past, and why even blizzard did too. Blizzard performed HUUGE nerfs that were class destroying.

And also conditions burst hard because wow and guild wars 2 don't function the same. The ability to burst on conditions has to happen somewhat, or it would literally be impossible to kill some players.

Just imagine for instance if conditions got nerfed and people could just constantly cleanse and then also on top of that they could heal, it would be broken. It would mean that conditions would become pointless in this current metagame, and a lot of builds I see already are power condi hybrids or some power build with sustain.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Ya had me til you stated a nerf to condi duration isnt a nerf to condis. After that you lost me.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"frareanselm.1925" said:The "Nerf this" threads should be forbidden in a official forum. Everybody defends their main profession and really dont care about true balance.

Correction: everyone whines about the things that they lose to and makes up some narrative explaining why it's actually just good design.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Axl.8924 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison.

I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all.

quote me

You were defending condi the entire first half of this thread, and now youre suddenly against it so long as thief is using it. Are you denying either half? I mean not that it helps you much, its at this point become clear that you think anything thief does is a problem, but only if

thief

does it, and its fine if any other class does it. Just irrational thief hatred taken to an extreme degree.

quote me

"the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell."

"ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened".

Or if we take things from other threads, how about "I have 1 condi cleanse every 30s and im doing guchi".

Oh or my personal favourite, "condi builds cant do that other then some niche or specific cases like burn buard or mass confusion from condi mesmer into you hurting yourself with confusion.". Yeah apparently when Mesmer kills you with confusion its you hurting yourself. When thief does it, its thieves fault. Cognitive dissonance as a result of irrational anti-thief bias. Nothing more.

, as usual, you fail to read and comprehend what is written, case closed.

Translation: "I have no answer and would rather keep my cognitive dissonance, so I will try and deflect". So let me ask this. Why is Mesmers confusion burst fine, but Thieves isn't? Mesmers aren't any avoidable after all. In your eyes, it's fine because it only does damage if the opponent spams like an idiot, but the same is true for thief, yet you have a problem with thief (remember that video where the guy died to thief steal burst, but only because he lost 9k hp from using abilities through the confusion?). The simple truth is that the same thing you just ardently defended becomes a problem, just because thief used it. All because you have an irrational bias against the thief.

You would have to overhaul sustainabilities and other stuff, and it might not be possible due to complications.

Not really. The same tools power builds have available are, largely, available to condi builds as well. The only exceptions are weapon skills, but you would need to change those anyway.

See conditions have to deal damage and kill you, and generally speaking there are maybe a couple of actual specs that can burst you fast enough with conditions to kill you.

I cant think of any that cannot in the current state, unless you burst cleanse. Condi Guard, Thief, Mirage, Rev all burst hard. Even Core Engineer and Warrior would, if they werent terrible.

Your best bet is to probably change the problematic specs and leave the others alone. Suppose for instance C rev wasn't a problem and it gets hit with a massive condi nerf affecting a certain amount of its builds for pve and SPVP, well the players would be furious and you would possibly risk having ANET lose even more people for PVP.

That A, just delays the necessary change, and B, keeps conditions binary. Besides, its entirely possible to change conditions while preserving PvE builds, most are split anyway.

I'm not sure how good Condi thief is, but I fear for them, I worry that they will get destroyed in conditions, and for those who say good, think again because your spec could be next on the chopping block.

Oh that build is gonna get nerfed for sure, its a thief build, the threshold for being nerfed is lower for them (Pistol/Pistol got nerfed for example). But that's beside the point.

clustering the problematic condis with nonproblematic ones, would delete certain condi specs all together and stifle variety.

It doesnt really come down to the exact condis. Rev uses Torment, Mirage used Confusion, Thief relies on bleeding and Poison, Guardian uses burn. Oh and Core Necro uses bleeding a lot. All conditions are or have been a problem before. They can also all be balanced around anyway.

Imagine for instance some power builds are problematic let's say for instance necro is doing too much damage and a warrior isn't and let's say weaver is and somehow holo isn't.

Hitting warrior and holo would be stupid because you make them weak and break them.

The point isnt to "hit" any of the builds, its to rework them. That includes retooling stacks and duration, and all the like.

It's wiser and better to only touch what is necessary to be touched, no more no less, and even then, when you touch something, you could break it. Class balance is complicated, which is why no PVP game I've seen has the absolutely perfect balance.

Not everything needs to be slashed and burn and not everything has to be hit with a chainsaw, and its probably better to use a scalpel if you understand my metaphor than using a chainsaw.

Using a chainsaw is why ANET got into such big trouble with the balance in the past, and why even blizzard did too. Blizzard performed HUUGE nerfs that were class destroying.

Im going to answer these 3 paragraphs at once. This would be true if we were talking about balance. But we were talking about design. Conditions have major design problems in how binary and uninteractive they are. When the entire category has design issues, you change the design of the entire category.

And also conditions burst hard because wow and guild wars 2 don't function the same. The ability to burst on conditions has to happen somewhat, or it would literally be impossible to kill some players.

Not exactly. They burst hard because conditions can be cleansed. You cant rely on the damage of the entire duration of condis because they get removed long before that. So they have to do most of their damage very quickly, or theyre useless.

Just imagine for instance if conditions got nerfed and people could just constantly cleanse and then also on top of that they could heal, it would be broken. It would mean that conditions would become pointless in this current metagame, and a lot of builds I see already are power condi hybrids or some power build with sustain.

Thats why my suggestion is to make it so cleanses dont remove damage conditions (only debilitating ones like weakness), and then retune them around that.