Bronze divisions

[Khalisto.5780]

Why bronze division has a range of 900 rating and the other divisions 300?

I can only think of 2 things

it somewhat helps the matchmaking algorithm

or

to discourage things like climbing from 0 to plat

[montecristo.1324]

I think I never seen a bronze player, except for the peopel with decay. Is bronze division really active?

[Khalisto.5780]

not many, i think something about 10 to 20 players max

[rng.1024]

It's an interesting question.

My guess is it allows for the max 700 point decay without going into the negative, but how do you really end up (and stay) in bronze division?

First of lets take a look at the soft reset of every season, which is:(YourRating + 1200) * 0.5This means if your rating is below 1200 at the end of a season, the soft reset will inevitably bump you up (meaning you start higher than you ended). It also means the minimum possible rating after a soft reset is 600 (300 less than 900). You're not even allowed a rating less than 100, so 650 in reality.

Furthermore lets assume you lose all placement matches. We all know the 30 point swings at start of season right? Well turns out those have a limit to how big they can become. So at worst you can lose 300 rating. Since the minimum rating is 650 and silver starts at 900, this puts the average bronze player at 775 rating. Soft reset gives (775+1200)+0.5=987. Even the 650 minimum yields a rank of 925.

Conclusion:There can't be any true bronze players, you can only get there by decaying. It is solely there to take decay into account. Most likely it is a remnant of the old pip-system in order to make it easy for us to get the order of divisions (bronze,silver,gold etc) but the real ladder starts at Silver 1.

How many players are there in Silver then? We already know 1200 is the gold standard. If you are below you get a buff if you are above you get debuffed. This pulls equally in both directions. If we then look away from soft reset, it's obvious it is the players with a negative winratio who don't have a previous season placement to give them a better starting point.

Aaand.. I am running out of battery on my phone, so the rest will have to wait.

Sources:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

[Tharan.9085]

@"rng.1024" said:It's an interesting question.

My guess is it allows for the max 700 point decay without going into the negative, but how do you really end up (and stay) in bronze division?

First of lets take a look at the soft reset of every season, which is:(YourRating + 1200) * 0.5This means if your rating is below 1200 at the end of a season, the soft reset will inevitably bump you up (meaning you start higher than you ended). It also means the minimum possible rating after a soft reset is 600 (300 less than 900). You're not even allowed a rating less than 100, so 650 in reality.

Furthermore lets assume you lose all placement matches. We all know the 30 point swings at start of season right? Well turns out those have a limit to how big they can become. So at worst you can lose 300 rating. Since the minimum rating is 650 and silver starts at 900, this puts the average bronze player at 775 rating. Soft reset gives (775+1200)+0.5=987. Even the 650 minimum yields a rank of 925.

Conclusion:There can't be any true bronze players, you can only get there by decaying. It is solely there to take decay into account. Most likely it is a remnant of the old pip-system in order to make it easy for us to get the order of divisions (bronze,silver,gold etc) but the real ladder starts at Silver 1.

How many players are there in Silver then? We already know 1200 is the gold standard. If you are below you get a buff if you are above you get debuffed. This pulls equally in both directions. If we then look away from soft reset, it's obvious it is the players with a negative winratio who don't have a previous season placement to give them a better starting point.

Aaand.. I am running out of battery on my phone, so the rest will have to wait.

Sources:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Actually you can loose more than 30 points in a single match

[Avatar.3568]

@Tharan.9085 said:

@"rng.1024" said:It's an interesting question.

My guess is it allows for the max 700 point decay without going into the negative, but how do you really end up (and stay) in bronze division?

First of lets take a look at the soft reset of every season, which is:(YourRating + 1200) * 0.5This means if your rating is below 1200 at the end of a season, the soft reset will inevitably bump you up (meaning you start higher than you ended). It also means the minimum possible rating after a soft reset is 600 (300 less than 900). You're not even allowed a rating less than 100, so 650 in reality.

Furthermore lets assume you lose all placement matches. We all know the 30 point swings at start of season right? Well turns out those have a limit to how big they can become. So at worst you can lose 300 rating. Since the minimum rating is 650 and silver starts at 900, this puts the average bronze player at 775 rating. Soft reset gives (775+1200)+0.5=987. Even the 650 minimum yields a rank of 925.

Conclusion:

There can't be any true bronze players, you can only get there by decaying. It is solely there to take decay into account. Most likely it is a remnant of the old pip-system in order to make it easy for us to get the order of divisions (bronze,silver,gold etc) but the real ladder starts at Silver 1.

How many players are there in Silver then? We already know 1200 is the gold standard. If you are below you get a buff if you are above you get debuffed. This pulls equally in both directions. If we then look away from soft reset, it's obvious it is the players with a negative winratio who don't have a previous season placement to give them a better starting point.

Aaand.. I am running out of battery on my phone, so the rest will have to wait.

Sources:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Actually you can loose more than 30 points in a single match

First this,

Second I know REAL bronze players that are not bots just bad, for real you would not realy think this are real players, more than, a enhanced bot or something similar

These guys playing with arrow keys and activate every skill that isn't 1 with the mouse

THIS IS NOT A JOKE !!!

[rng.1024]

@Tharan.9085 said:

@"rng.1024" said:It's an interesting question.

My guess is it allows for the max 700 point decay without going into the negative, but how do you really end up (and stay) in bronze division?

First of lets take a look at the soft reset of every season, which is:(YourRating + 1200) * 0.5This means if your rating is below 1200 at the end of a season, the soft reset will inevitably bump you up (meaning you start higher than you ended). It also means the minimum possible rating after a soft reset is 600 (300 less than 900). You're not even allowed a rating less than 100, so 650 in reality.

Furthermore lets assume you lose all placement matches. We all know the 30 point swings at start of season right? Well turns out those have a limit to how big they can become. So at worst you can lose 300 rating. Since the minimum rating is 650 and silver starts at 900, this puts the average bronze player at 775 rating. Soft reset gives (775+1200)+0.5=987. Even the 650 minimum yields a rank of 925.

Conclusion:

There can't be any true bronze players, you can only get there by decaying. It is solely there to take decay into account. Most likely it is a remnant of the old pip-system in order to make it easy for us to get the order of divisions (bronze,silver,gold etc) but the real ladder starts at Silver 1.

How many players are there in Silver then? We already know 1200 is the gold standard. If you are below you get a buff if you are above you get debuffed. This pulls equally in both directions. If we then look away from soft reset, it's obvious it is the players with a negative winratio who don't have a previous season placement to give them a better starting point.

Aaand.. I am running out of battery on my phone, so the rest will have to wait.

Sources:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Actually you can loose more than 30 points in a single match

Yeah I know, but I'm talking about rating. You can only drop 300 below your soft reset rating.

If we look at points only you probably can lose up to 1000 during placements, but the volatility value is there to prevent your rating from swinging just as wildly. I picked 30 as an average value.

[Luthan.5236]

Does decay even affect the rating for grouping you into divisions and for matchmaking? I thought it only affects leaderboards (the top #250 list or so).If it affected rating I guess there would be a hard limit at 0 (not possible to become negative) by the system already.

Bronze having 0-900 is probably because it is easy to learn the basics and get at least to the lowest tier of silver. You'd still want the low ratings from 0-900 available for some rare exceptions where the player is really bad. (Maybe physically handicapped people with bad hardware getting lots of bad luck ... bad team members and os ... might get to bronze 1.)

I am silver/gold only - in conquest mode. And I "managed" to get bronze 3 only in the mini season 2 vs. 2 when I tried lots of different classes I never played before just for fun. (Playing the class and build the first time and not caring about wins.)

I rarely see others (but not impossible) with the badge. I guess being in bronze also isn't something people want to show off. Gold and platin seems the most common. Even silver (where still a lot of people should be) seems rare because they probably keep it disabled.

Edit: With 1200 being the middle ... the bordre between silver and gold. I think silver and gold are the most player.s The exeptionally good ones are in platin. Exceptionally bad ones in bronze 3 (600-900).

Legendary and bronze 2 (300-600) might still normally happen ... for super rare exeptions. The god-tier players in legendary. Or the bronze 2 for the very bad where lots of things come together that make the player bad. Bronze 1 (0-300) for people that just learn to use a keyboard and are afk in the starter area most of the matches. (Though they should use unranked and other means to train first.)

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Anet has stated that the the average player is somewhere between silver III and Gold I.

With the way ranked works, the amount of rating you gain/lose partially depends a lot on your current rank. This means a bronze players will run into the opposite issue that a legendary player will, in that at legendary you gain +1~5 per win and -25 per lose. Bronze players will lose very little per loss and probably gain +20~30 per win.

What this means is that it's OK for Bronze to have a very low floor because only very new or very bad players are statistically capable of being in bronze as it requires an absurdly low win ratio. You basically have to be so useless for your team that you being AFK would barely make any difference.

[Khalisto.5780]

there's an old discussion about population x divisions

devs joined the thread and gave us some answers, so somebody asked if there were bronze players and they said yes, there's more bronze players than legendary players, but not a lot more

the decay doesn't really affects your rating when it comes to matchmaking, you don't play against lower players, but it'll affect your position in leaderboards and your badge

[montecristo.1324]

Thanks guys for the clarification, I didn't want to start an offtopic discussion but I was really curious about the population in bronze, I thought it was an empty division!

[GeneralFailure.3402]

@Khalisto.5780 said:there's an old discussion about population x divisions

devs joined the thread and gave us some answers, so somebody asked if there were bronze players and they said yes, there's more bronze players than legendary players, but not a lot more

the decay doesn't really affects your rating when it comes to matchmaking, you don't play against lower players, but it'll affect your position in leaderboards and your badge

good old gauss distribution with peak on silver3/gold1

[georgessj.4198]

@montecristo.1324 said:Thanks guys for the clarification, I didn't want to start an offtopic discussion but I was really curious about the population in bronze, I thought it was an empty division!

The 900 at bronze was made to keep the thousands of bots there no other reason for it but since arena practically legalized botting by never baning them their population outgrowed the players in total and thats why you can never play a silver division without at least 2 bots, and ofc gold has a decent amount of them.

[Crab Fear.1624]

there is no bronze ranked bot.

but there are bots.

think about that

[Khalisto.5780]

@"rng.1024" said:It's an interesting question.

My guess is it allows for the max 700 point decay without going into the negative, but how do you really end up (and stay) in bronze division?

First of lets take a look at the soft reset of every season, which is:(YourRating + 1200) * 0.5This means if your rating is below 1200 at the end of a season, the soft reset will inevitably bump you up (meaning you start higher than you ended). It also means the minimum possible rating after a soft reset is 600 (300 less than 900). You're not even allowed a rating less than 100, so 650 in reality.

Furthermore lets assume you lose all placement matches. We all know the 30 point swings at start of season right? Well turns out those have a limit to how big they can become. So at worst you can lose 300 rating. Since the minimum rating is 650 and silver starts at 900, this puts the average bronze player at 775 rating. Soft reset gives (775+1200)+0.5=987. Even the 650 minimum yields a rank of 925.

Conclusion:There can't be any true bronze players, you can only get there by decaying. It is solely there to take decay into account. Most likely it is a remnant of the old pip-system in order to make it easy for us to get the order of divisions (bronze,silver,gold etc) but the real ladder starts at Silver 1.

How many players are there in Silver then? We already know 1200 is the gold standard. If you are below you get a buff if you are above you get debuffed. This pulls equally in both directions. If we then look away from soft reset, it's obvious it is the players with a negative winratio who don't have a previous season placement to give them a better starting point.

Aaand.. I am running out of battery on my phone, so the rest will have to wait.

Sources:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

Last placements i lost 107 or 6 rating in my first match, you can check that in gw2efficiency if you curious, but the first 3 matches always have this big swings usually in 60-90 range, as you play more matches it get less volatile going all the way down 10 by 10 till you reach the 30 ish range as you get close to your 10th match. I'll post the screenshot when i get my pc back.

[Fueki.4753]

@rng.1024 said:how do you really end up (and stay) in bronze division?

How do people actually end up (and stay) in Gold or higher ranks? by winning most of the time.The opposite happens to those in Bronze.

[crepuscular.9047]

@Khalisto.5780 said:not many, i think something about 10 to 20 players max

which is stupid, you would think that the lower the rank the higher the population pool, which isnt the case

[Fueki.4753]

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@Khalisto.5780 said:not many, i think something about 10 to 20 players max

which is stupid, you would think that the lower the rank the higher the population pool, which isnt the case

Why would you think that? THe highest amount obviously is around the average, which supposedly is around Gold 1/Silver 3.You can imagine the player distribution like a Gauss bell. The x-axis lists the rank points and the y-axis is the player number.The outer ends are sparsely populated, while the vast majority accumulates somewhere in the middle.

But rather than the Bronze player count being similar to only legends', I'd say the number is closer to legends' and platinum's together.

[Luthan.5236]

Yeah. I tried to think about it in my post above. If the border (real middle) of the distribution is between silver 3 and gold 1 then bronze 3 is similar to platin. (Since both have the same 300 span.) Bronze 2 for Legendary. Bronze 1 is additional. Might have very few (almost non existant.)

Makese sense to say that Bronze player amount is similar to the amount of Platin and Legendary.

[rng.1024]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@rng.1024 said:how do you really end up (and stay) in bronze division?

How do people actually end up (and stay) in Gold or higher ranks? by winning most of the time.The opposite happens to those in Bronze.

Yeah but imagine the fringe case of you being in silver 1 - the algorithm withdraws you around 5 points for a loss and give 20 points for a win. Which means your ratio has to be less than 0,25 winrate for you not to climb out of there. Statistcally if you face other silver players your ratio should be 50/50, so you need to actively be throwing the matches you are in and the matchmaker needs to acknowledge that :s

[Serenity.6304]

On prime time when I was creating a fresh alt acc and climbing the shortest queue times were 100 % in gold 1. I could play like instantly. In silver 1 it took much longer, about 3-4 min. Then in g3 it was like 1.5 min and in p1 and p2 on both accounts it is usually between 2 and 5 minutes. If queue times allow drawing conclusions on population I would support those who say g1 has the highest playerbase.

[xp eke xp.6724]

Wait the algorithm didn´t say you dont get points if you play mesmer?PLS FIX!!!! xD

[Tharan.9085]

@Fueki.4753 said:

But rather than the Bronze player count being similar to only legends', I'd say the number is closer to legends' and platinum's together.

It has been confirmed by Ben that there are roughly as many legends as bronze players