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Will there ever be new additions to Core classes?


Taril.8619

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@"Lily.1935" said:You might not like that but games have followed these designs for a while. What sort of skills works with what themes. Necromancer is in an unfortunate position of not being too common. So what typically defines them is often left out.

You keep saying this and talk about "Typical Necromancers have X, Y and Z" meanwhile, I've played equal numbers of games to the ones you've mentioned that DON'T portray Necromancers in that specific way (Heck, even in some of the games you've listed they're not portrayed in the way you consider "Typical")

@"Lily.1935" said:Aspects of necromancer's design tropes are pretty specific, trying to shoehorn it into a thief in the example just wouldn't work because their typical mechanical and archetypal design just doesn't match up. Their design is so divergent. At what point does it stop being what it originally was designed to be? If I joined in on a game and the thief was playing the role of the cleric or white mage, or sang songs like bard, at what point is it no longer a thief? The game calls it a thief but it doesn't use steal and it sings songs and heals allies. Is it still a thief because the game says it is? Or is there a clear design disconnect.

The thing is not shoehorning a particular theme into a class, but a mechanic.

A Thief that heals can totally work though. They can do things like steal health potions from the enemy to give to their allies Healing Seed. Provide stealth to allies to prevent them from being attacked (Also, they could apply healing to allies they stealth Merciful Ambush and Shadow Refuge), they could shadowstep to enemies and provide a pulse of AoE healing to allies Shadow Saviour or could even apply life leeching poisons to allies weapons Leeching Venoms

Oh wait, all those examples are from THIS GAME.

Also, nothing about Necromancer's mechanics are specific. Hence why there's such a range of portrayals of Necromancer among fantasy. Some using corpses, some not. Some being tanky, some not. Some raise the dead, some do not.

Again, the only thing that is specific to Necromancer and the only thing that is required for something to be a Necromancer, is the use of "Death Magic" in whatever form that might take. Be it something like GW1's raising of hoards, PoE's summoning of Zombies/Skeletons/Wraiths/Burning Skulls, City of Villains Dark Magic powerset that is standard Blaster/Corrupter damage kit with procs of Blindness, Dungeons of Dredmor's ability to turn into a Lich or even Dragon Age: Origin's entirely CC orientated Death Magics that don't do anything offensive, they just control enemies by putting them to sleep or stunning them and there's no raised dead.

Just like there's nothing specific to any other class outside of the theme of their abilities i.e. Warrior wearing heavy armour and whacking stuff with a melee weapon, Wizard/Sorceror casting spells, Bards singing songs/playing instruments, Thieves stealing stuff, Paladins being pretentious jerks using light themed spells alongside martial weapons and heavy armour etc.

Hence why portrayals of all these other classes also differ heavily between games, because class designers have different visions of how the class will work in their game and sometimes they combine multiple classes together taking bits from each, sometimes they copy an existing design as a template (Such as a D&D class from a specific edition) and other times they just try and think of stuff that's cool and then fit it to work.

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@Taril.8619 said:

@"Lily.1935" said:You might not like that but games have followed these designs for a while. What sort of skills works with what themes. Necromancer is in an unfortunate position of not being too common. So what typically defines them is often left out.

You keep saying this and talk about "Typical Necromancers have X, Y and Z" meanwhile, I've played equal numbers of games to the ones you've mentioned that DON'T portray Necromancers in that specific way (Heck, even in some of the games you've listed they're not portrayed in the way you consider "Typical")

@"Lily.1935" said:Aspects of necromancer's design tropes are pretty specific, trying to shoehorn it into a thief in the example just wouldn't work because their typical mechanical and archetypal design just doesn't match up. Their design is so divergent. At what point does it stop being what it originally was designed to be? If I joined in on a game and the thief was playing the role of the cleric or white mage, or sang songs like bard, at what point is it no longer a thief? The game calls it a thief but it doesn't use steal and it sings songs and heals allies. Is it still a thief because the game says it is? Or is there a clear design disconnect.

The thing is not shoehorning a particular theme into a class, but a mechanic.

A Thief that heals can totally work though. They can do things like steal health potions from the enemy to give to their allies
Healing Seed
. Provide stealth to allies to prevent them from being attacked (Also, they could apply healing to allies they stealth
Merciful Ambush
and
Shadow Refuge
), they could shadowstep to enemies and provide a pulse of AoE healing to allies
Shadow Saviour
or could even apply life leeching poisons to allies weapons
Leeching Venoms

Oh wait, all those examples are from
THIS GAME.

Also, nothing about Necromancer's mechanics are specific. Hence why there's such a range of portrayals of Necromancer among fantasy. Some using corpses, some not. Some being tanky, some not. Some raise the dead, some do not.

Again, the only thing that is specific to Necromancer and the only thing that is required for something to be a Necromancer, is the use of "Death Magic" in whatever form that might take. Be it something like GW1's raising of hoards, PoE's summoning of Zombies/Skeletons/Wraiths/Burning Skulls, City of Villains Dark Magic powerset that is standard Blaster/Corrupter damage kit with procs of Blindness, Dungeons of Dredmor's ability to turn into a Lich or even Dragon Age: Origin's entirely CC orientated Death Magics that don't do anything offensive, they just control enemies by putting them to sleep or stunning them and there's no raised dead.

Just like there's nothing specific to any other class outside of the theme of their abilities i.e. Warrior wearing heavy armour and whacking stuff with a melee weapon, Wizard/Sorceror casting spells, Bards singing songs/playing instruments, Thieves stealing stuff, Paladins
being pretentious jerks
using light themed spells alongside martial weapons and heavy armour etc.

Hence why portrayals of all these other classes also differ heavily between games, because class designers have different visions of how the class will work in their game and sometimes they combine multiple classes together taking bits from each, sometimes they copy an existing design as a template (Such as a D&D class from a specific edition) and other times they just try and think of stuff that's cool and then fit it to work.

Dark magic is not the same thing as death magic. Lets get that straight right away.

BUT! Can you at least admit to my original point that the specific playstyle that I'm talking about, this sacrificial, supportive, controlling playstle which has traditionally been almost exclusive to necromancer is absent from the game. CAN YOU AT LEAST ADMIT TO THAT? because if you can't this is a pointless conversation.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:Mechanically speaking I could slap a shroud mechanic on any class for another Game and it would work just as well with them if the theme was changed. IT actually has been done before. Most resent example of this is Wolcen. They have this avatar system that functions almost exactly like a shroud, all be it both better and worse in a lot of ways. It is mechanically nearly identical, but thematically its distinct. Another Mechanically similar ability to shroud is Dungeon's and Dragon's wildshape mechanic for the druid.

If we boil down what shroud is based on its mechanical design, it could fit a lot of different classes without a problem. The only part of it mechanically speaking that is "Necromancer" is the fact that its generated through deaths. Everything else could easily be emulated on another class.

I can agree that thematically, necromancer is a necromancer. Mechanically, no, I can't. Mechanically its too similar to a watered down druid from Dungeons and dragons than it is to what was unique about the necromancer class in other games.

Mechanically speaking, you can easily turn ANY mechanic into one that fits another class. You just have to think up some thematic way of getting the same end effect.

Hexes? > Rogue uses Poison > Warrior uses debilitating Shout > Paladin smites with divine justice > Wizard uses arcane jiggery pokery etc.

Health as a resource? > Rogue doesn't have "Health" they have "Luck" and once their luck runs out, they get hit and die. Hence, they can spend this luck for power > Warrior your standard Berserker archetype > Paladin makes and offering to the divine (Think: the practice of self flagellation which has been prevalent in many religious cultures) > Wizard casts spells so powerful they drain their very life essence etc.

Minions? > Rogue calls in their Thief Guild buddies > Warrior calls in their Fighter guild buddies > Paladin summons up holy spirits > Wizard conjures elementals etc.

No mechanic is inherently related to a class. It all comes down to how you colour it and what lore you use to substantiate it. Hence why "Zergling Necro" is literally just Mesmer. It has taken the mechanic and made it pink with butterflies and voila, it's now suitable for a Mesmer.

Classes are entirely defined by how their skills are animated and justified. Which is why I've played plenty of Warlocks that summon Demons that play identically to Necromancers just instead of Zombies and Skeletons being summoned and "Death magic" spells, it's Demons and "Demon magic". I've also played some Wizard types that summon Elementals and use "Elemental magic". Just as I've played Wizards and Sorcerors that use their health as a resource (Notably, in Warhammer Online where Bright Wizard and Sorceror classes unique mechanic was that as they cast spells, they build up Power and the higher their power the greater the chance for spells to "Backfire" and deal damage to themselves with increasing damage too but at the same time, the stronger their spells would be)

I've also played things like Engineers that "Hex" because they throw vials of acid and poison as well as bombs to debilitate enemies (Sometimes these Engineers could even build small machines that could run after enemies and nibble at them until they were detonated by the Engineer), even Bards have "Hex-like" effects through debilitating songs (Such as Dirge in EQ2) as well as the occasional poison coated dagger.

So, complaining that a class doesn't "Mechanically feel like a class" is silly. Given that literally any mechanic can be utilized by literally any class because nothing is directly related. At best, there are some stereotypical archetypes that lean on specific tropes (Such as Necromancers raising the dead) but that's not a necessity and stems a lot from how popular Tolkein's fantasy design became (Since it has influenced a large portion of fantasy, from class archetypes to races (I.e. Elves are tall, slender, beautiful, Dwarfs are stout, muscular and 90% beard, Human heroes always have an Elf GF, Orcs are ugly, savage beasts etc) as well as the minutia of various classes such as how Archers are typically Elves because for some reason dexterity/agility is considered the stat needed to use a bow as opposed to strength to actually draw a powerful bow, or how Wizards often have robes, pointy hats and a staff (Ignoring the fairly notable part of the trilogy where Gandalf fights a Balrog with a SWORD but whatever...)) as well as influence from D&D (Which often parallels Tolkein's designs)

too much of a stretch, wouldn't work.

That's not a stretch, that's exactly what you are talking about and it works just as much. Change theme/name/particles and you can switch almost any mechanic to fit a class you want. As you can see multiple people understand that, those last posts were literally added in the span of 3 minutes. You might not like that, but that's the fact.

Its not though. You might not like that but games have followed these designs for a while.

Way too broad statement to be true. Also no matter how many games would copy each other, it doesn't change the meaning of the word necromancer and still doesn't have any other "classic necromancer mechanics" than what was already stated multiple times above.

What sort of skills works with what themes. Necromancer is in an unfortunate position of not being too common. So what typically defines them is often left out.

Any skill, with any theme you want to in literally the same way you said it about necro skills -"change the theme and it fits another class". What's so hard to understand about that?

The only "typically necromancer defining" things are death magic and... generally anything death/black magic related. That's all there is despite you thinking otherwise for some unknown reason.Actually probable reason is just: "
I've played THAT game and I liked THAT deisgn, so now THAT is what necromancer means/is represented by!
" -too bad that's not how it works, so... still wrong.

Aspects of necromancer's design tropes are pretty specific, trying to shoehorn it into a thief in the example just wouldn't work because their typical mechanical and archetypal design just doesn't match up.

It would. You change the skin/particles/name of the skill and it's anything you want it to be for any class. Just like you wrote in your example. For some reason you think it works for whatever you want it to work, but doesn't for anything else. But that's clearly false.

Their design is so divergent. At what point does it stop being what it originally was designed to be?

I mean you were hypotetically allowed to change something that was designed for necro just so you can claim it could fit another class if we change it enough, so... I'm missing the point of your question here. The theme is the main thing making the class, not the mechanic. Reskin minions into elementals, divine beings, animals or anything else and WOAH suddenly it fits 10 other classes, but not necro?! What a surprise. At least to you, apparently.Can be done with any other skill as well if we're allowed to change what we need to (and going by your earlier example, we are).

If I joined in on a game and the thief was playing the role of the cleric or white mage, or sang songs like bard, at what point is it no longer a thief? The game calls it a thief but it doesn't use steal and it sings songs and heals allies. Is it still a thief because the game says it is? Or is there a clear design disconnect.

That's not what anyone here suggested, sorry but it seems you didn't understand what you've read.(but that aside, there were already people suggesting bard for thief espec long time ago. So much for complaining about anet not catering to every player's expectations)

Bard is more commonly suggested for Mesmer and I've read those posts and there is a lot of backlash against it when its suggested for thief. But I did understand it, in the post under this we see them defending that very idea now. Identity of the classes doesn't seem to matter to you two which is just baffling to me which shows me this has been a "Style vs Substance" debate without either side really realize that so we're actually talking past each other.

Y'all want it to LOOK like X. I want it to FEEL like X. There is no agreeing on that because we're coming from different design perspectives.

So Can you at least admit that the type of play style that I have been trying to describe to you is missing in GW2? Can you at least meet me there?

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I don't think they'll ad more classes. We have 3 for each armor type now. That seems balanced. With all the people requesting new elite specs ... for 9 classes it would mean 9 new elite specs and maybe with the next expansion they will consider adding 1 more classe (with 2 elite specs) - cause that probably is more work. (While not adding more elite specs to the other classes.)

Then again ... that would mean different amount of classes per armor type (medium, heavy, light). And if they added 3 classes it would mean the same amount of work as adding another elite spec for every existing class.

I'd prefer more options (other than elite specs) for the existing classes. But that would mean more balancing (especially with regards to the olter content ... or they could ignore it and only balance for later added maps).

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New classes? Probs not. Most new Class types can be done via E-Specs that convert existing classes into something different.

New weapons? As in new weapon types? Probs not, would be a lot of work given they'd need an entirely overhauled loot table to facilitate them as well as a notable inclusion of them (Creating new weapon types that only like 1-2 classes can even use and then only get like 2-3 skills for is a lot of effort for little gain, they'd end up needing to be something ubiquitous like Swords that many classes end up being able to use)

Existing weapon types becoming featured in classes that currently can't use them? Likely. Though, probably will end up locked behind E-Specs.

It's worth noting that weapon type expansion without introducing new types has a hard limit of how many times it can be done. For example, if each class gets 1 new weapon type every time (Say, for every E-Spec), then there will come a point where for example, Warrior will be able to use every weapon in the game and no longer be able to get a new weapon type expansion - I.e. They're only missing; Shortbow, Staff, Scepter, Focus, Pistol MH and Pistol OH at the moment.

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I'd only accept a new class if we also got a new armor type to go with it. Unarmored or Super Heavy/Fortified. But its unlikely because in addition to balance issues, there wouldn't be many skins and people would have to rely on Outfits alot.

Although that might be an economic advantage for ArenaNet..

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I've always wondered what it'd be like to take Mechanical Engineering from the High Legions, or study Magiomathematical Theory at an Asura College. or take a History class in Divinity's Reach (or even better, Hoelbrak) , or diving deep into Art and Design classes with the Sylvari...

Not that any of that is necessary, once we have started our Professions, but adult education is important.

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@Naxos.2503 said:The only way I could think this might work is through hybrid classes or dual classes.

And Boy what a mess that'd be. Interesting still.

In guild wars when we had dual classes , we only got the skills but not their unique “trait”. I think that would maybe work if they were to ever implement dual classes? For example : An ele that wants to take on necro as a second class, just give them the trait lines & skills but not to be given access to necro shroud since that’s unique on the necro class . That’s how I think it could work? Anything is possible at this point.

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Necro is whatever Anet decides it is, not what players expect it to be based on baggage they carry over from other games or works of fiction. Nothing is 'missing' and there isn't a gap to fill thematically for Necro because Anet gets the freedom to define it to be whatever they want it to. If there is a playstyle that isn't sufficiently covered by the numerous especs in the game, regardless of what that playstyle is, nothing dictates it should belong to Necro. I think we need to be really careful when making statements that a 'playstyle' is missing because that's not a very determined term to begin with.

And as for the original topic, I would bet there won't be a new core class ... but if there was, I would be delighted to see it.

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@Luthan.5236 said:I don't think they'll ad more classes. We have 3 for each armor type now. That seems balanced.True on the armor side. Not true on the HP side (we have low, mid and high hp classes for both light and heavy armor category, but we have one low and two mid hp classes for medium armor category).

So, there's definitely some leeway here. Also, i'd really like some of the old classes from GW1 brought back, but i also know that they are impossible to do right as elite specs.

Also, ironically, new class introduces less balance problems than new set of elite specs (ironically, because one of the original goals behind elite specs was for something exactly opposite. Unfortunately it didn't turn out that way).

Unfortunately, i do agree with you that adding even one class would be a lot of work, so i don't think it's going to happen. Still, it is probably still more likely than adding a new race.

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New Professions? No. Elite specs-I hope so. If they release the third expansion and zero elite specs that will be massively disappointing for the players. I don't think there is enough space to make endless elites though so if anything we might get one more round or possibly a few more? You never know. I highly doubt we will ever get a new race even though many people keep shouting TENGU?! At this point, I hope they at least release a Tengu combat tonic to satisfy some fans.

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I actually want them to update the trait system since we are stuck with usually 3 traits no matter the build. I think that's outdated and we should be able to choose (in the core traits at least), the 6 traits we wish from each trait line. Will they have to rebalance some stuff? Probably, but that would make certain build even more effective especially in PVE. I don't like to have a quarter of the auto-traits just sitting around never getting triggered or being relevant.

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