Is heart of thorns meant to feel this hard as a new player?

[Tails.9372]

@"mindcircus.1506" said:Changing your build, adapting to new play styles is quite simply "part of the game" It is as integral to your progression as successfully completing mechanics.This is why you are able and encouraged to make changes without cost any time you are out of combat.The developers encourage and facilitate this. The game is balanced around it. It's why the timer on Eater of Souls' breakbar is how it is. It's why there's a platform over the battle area in Hearts and Minds, it's why the game tells you if you have an unselected trait line, it's why we have build templates.The devs. giving you the freedom to experiment does not mean that being "forced to change your build" for anything but optimization for difficult content is part of the game. If someone is trying to fight big groups of mobs with a weapon set geared towards 1v1 then yes, the player in question should take a moment to think about what he's doing. But if he runs an optimized build, is on the "right target" and still underperforms despite doing the thing he's "supposed to do" than it's on A-Net to fix this. Now you don't need to take him into your group but he has every right to criticize A-Net for the issues he's facing. There's really no need to defend bad game design.

@"mindcircus.1506" said:All the rhetoric and insults you wish to throw about other peopleNow that's just presumptuous don't you think? Tell me, who do I "want to insult"? I was merely stating some facts. Nothing more, nothing less.

[knite.1542]

@"Tails.9372" said:

change your buildBut this advice only goes so far as long as "changing your build" doesn't require the player to change their underlying playstyle. Asking the player to optimize their build for their given weapon set is one thing and should be something every player is expected to do if they want to tackle more difficult content but let's not act as if there aren't any issues with the weapon sets themselves. Some of them even punish the players for doing the break bars. If your already running a build optimized for your weapon set and it still fails to be good at the thing it's supposed to be good at then it's on A-Net to fix these issues because at this point they're the only ones who can. For these cases telling people to just "change their build" is nothing but ignorance because you ignore one of the main reasons why players play the the game to begin with.

Interesting point of view. I don't really want to argue with the points you are making but I will say that anet probably isn't going to change this content anytime soon so the choices are probably change his playstyle or never clear the content. Just being realistic. Maybe if the majority of the playerbase couldn't do it they would change it but I doubt that's the case.

[battledrone.8315]

@"knite.1542" said:It's not very hard. Chances are you either have a bad build, bad gear, or you just need to practice your class more. (Or a combination of all of those.)

Maybe you could try a different class as well. Some classes definitely have an easier time than others. Necromancer for example, would probably much easier for most people to do this content on than elementalist.

If all else fails though, you could definitely try to find people to help you.

Good luck!

Edit: one more thing. Don't be afraid to change your build (weapons/utilities ect) for the situation. A lot of people get into a one build mindset and try to clear any and all encounters without ever changing what they are doing. Expirement!

his "bad "build was good enough to get him this far, and it was obviously the ONE HE LIKED TO PLAYthe whole "tutorial" (AKA levelling process) didnt stop him from doing so eitherif you cant see the problem here...

[battledrone.8315]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Tails.9372" said:

change your buildBut this advice only goes so far as long as "changing your build" doesn't require the player to change their underlying playstyle. Asking the player to optimize their build for their given weapon set is one thing and should be something every player is expected to do if they want to tackle more difficult content but let's not act as if there aren't any issues with the weapon sets themselves. Some of them even punish the players for doing the break bars. If your already running a build optimized for your weapon set and it still fails to be good at the thing it's supposed to be good at then it's on A-Net to fix these issues because at this point they're the only ones who can. For these cases telling people to just "change their build" is nothing but ignorance because you ignore one of the main reasons why players play the the game to begin with.Changing your build, adapting to new play styles is quite simply "part of the game" It is as integral to your progression as successfully completing mechanics.This is why you are able and encouraged to make changes without cost any time you are out of combat.The developers encourage and facilitate this. The game is balanced around it. It's why the timer on Eater of Souls' breakbar is how it is. It's why there's a platform over the battle area in Hearts and Minds, it's why the game tells you if you have an unselected trait line, it's why we have build templates.

This clinging to things that don't work "because it's my playstyle" and blaming the developers if you have to make an (easily reversible) trait change to adapt situationally is a self imposed limit. All the rhetoric and insults you wish to throw about other people's "ignorance" does not change this.It's no different than someone who doesn't understand how a knight moves on a chess board and loudly proclaims that the problem is with the game and not their understanding.

1: the customer has the ultimate power, when there is no money left to fund it, it will automatically go away2: chess is fine example, it ALWAYS has the same rules. so, why shouldnt pressing the same button have the same function?because THEY CHANGED THE RULES

[Sigmoid.7082]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Tails.9372" said:

change your buildBut this advice only goes so far as long as "changing your build" doesn't require the player to change their underlying playstyle. Asking the player to optimize their build for their given weapon set is one thing and should be something every player is expected to do if they want to tackle more difficult content but let's not act as if there aren't any issues with the weapon sets themselves. Some of them even punish the players for doing the break bars. If your already running a build optimized for your weapon set and it still fails to be good at the thing it's supposed to be good at then it's on A-Net to fix these issues because at this point they're the only ones who can. For these cases telling people to just "change their build" is nothing but ignorance because you ignore one of the main reasons why players play the the game to begin with.Changing your build, adapting to new play styles is quite simply "part of the game" It is as integral to your progression as successfully completing mechanics.This is why you are able and encouraged to make changes without cost any time you are out of combat.The developers encourage and facilitate this. The game is balanced around it. It's why the timer on Eater of Souls' breakbar is how it is. It's why there's a platform over the battle area in Hearts and Minds, it's why the game tells you if you have an unselected trait line, it's why we have build templates.

This clinging to things that don't work "because it's my playstyle" and blaming the developers if you have to make an (easily reversible) trait change to adapt situationally is a self imposed limit. All the rhetoric and insults you wish to throw about other people's "ignorance" does not change this.It's no different than someone who doesn't understand how a knight moves on a chess board and loudly proclaims that the problem is with the game and not their understanding.

2: chess is fine example, it ALWAYS has the same rules. so, why shouldnt pressing the same button have the same function?because THEY CHANGED THE RULES

The rules haven't changed. You just can't approach every game of chess the same way. The game teaches you how the pieces move. The strategy is up to you.

[Cuks.8241]

@battledrone.8315 said:1: the customer has the ultimate power, when there is no money left to fund it, it will automatically go away2: chess is fine example, it ALWAYS has the same rules. so, why shouldnt pressing the same button have the same function?because THEY CHANGED THE RULES

What rules have they changed that doesn't let you do Hot anymore? Sure there are balance changes and new additions but we are talking open world content and just some basic adaptations to you build. Usually just changing one or 2 utility skills makes a world of difference.The rules are the same only your opponent got harder and maybe having another opening next to the Sicilian defense would be a good idea to mix it up.

[Shikaru.7618]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Tails.9372" said:

change your buildBut this advice only goes so far as long as "changing your build" doesn't require the player to change their underlying playstyle. Asking the player to optimize their build for their given weapon set is one thing and should be something every player is expected to do if they want to tackle more difficult content but let's not act as if there aren't any issues with the weapon sets themselves. Some of them even punish the players for doing the break bars. If your already running a build optimized for your weapon set and it still fails to be good at the thing it's supposed to be good at then it's on A-Net to fix these issues because at this point they're the only ones who can. For these cases telling people to just "change their build" is nothing but ignorance because you ignore one of the main reasons why players play the the game to begin with.Changing your build, adapting to new play styles is quite simply "part of the game" It is as integral to your progression as successfully completing mechanics.This is why you are able and encouraged to make changes without cost any time you are out of combat.The developers encourage and facilitate this. The game is balanced around it. It's why the timer on Eater of Souls' breakbar is how it is. It's why there's a platform over the battle area in Hearts and Minds, it's why the game tells you if you have an unselected trait line, it's why we have build templates.

This clinging to things that don't work "because it's my playstyle" and blaming the developers if you have to make an (easily reversible) trait change to adapt situationally is a self imposed limit. All the rhetoric and insults you wish to throw about other people's "ignorance" does not change this.It's no different than someone who doesn't understand how a knight moves on a chess board and loudly proclaims that the problem is with the game and not their understanding.

1: the customer has the ultimate power, when there is no money left to fund it, it will automatically go away2: chess is fine example, it ALWAYS has the same rules. so, why shouldnt pressing the same button have the same function?because THEY CHANGED THE RULES

They didnt change the rules, you just didnt know what the rules were when you started. Leveling 1 to 80 taught you that pawns forward so that's what you think the game is holistically. If anything is to change here, it would be the core leveling experience from 1 to 80 needs to teach and demand way more from the player. Plenty of people completed the expansions with no trouble at all. You can either adapt to make the content easier or continue to struggle. If you want actual help you should post a screenshot of your equipment and traits.

[Tsakhi.8124]

Story TimeI confess, one of the first characters I had, I boosted. So, I waddle my dumb butt into HoT, thinking "How bad could it be?" right? So, having had my butt handed to me too many times to count, I decided I'd level the good old fashioned way. (I was also wondering who the hell these people were and why were they so angry.) I learned the ins and outs of my class, had a dang good teacher and then went back to HoT and didn't die as much. I consider myself a very mediocre player. I eventually learned to read the enemies and study their tactics and that helped a lot. Just hang in there, my friend, it does get easier. If you need help, please feel free to add me and I'll see if I can help you out.

As for those saying "git gud" or anything else along those lines, have you considered that maybe you don't know the full story? Maybe, just maybe, try to have a little bit of empathy.

Edited because I'm sort of an addled brain dolyak.

[Gwynhara.7261]

I think what throws new players for a loop here is that GW2's overall design differs from other MMOs in that (1) there is very little true vertical progression, in terms of gear, after level cap, which makes your character statistically better (and therefore noticeably more performance effective relative to the content) in large leaps and (2) the "open world" content at level cap is tuned to be quite difficult, rather than keeping the difficult content sequestered away in group instances (the latter of course exist, but they are not the only place tuned to a higher difficulty setting).

Players from other games (WoW for certain but certainly not only WoW) are simply not used to reaching level cap and having the level cap open world content lay them out again and again and again and, further, not having a way to out-gear the issue in the relatively short term. GW2, not being a primarily gear-progression game, has decided to create "endgame difficulty" in other ways -- namely by creating open world content that is markedly more difficult than it is in pretty much any other MMO at level cap, and forcing players to overcome this by learning the detailed ins and outs of every aspect of their class -- all of the trait options, all of the skill options, all of the weapons options -- in detail to optimize performance and adapt to situations. It's an advancement scheme that isn't gear-related as much as it is player-related -- in that sense it is much less of an RPG in the sense where the advancement is all about your character and its stats (as in gearing games) and more of an adventure game where the advancement is all about the knowledge and skill of the player driving the character as an avatar of the player.

It's simply a different approach to the one most MMOs take, and therefore it's going to be jarring for lots of new players when they reach 80 and discover that anet's approach to endgame difficulty is very different from other MMOs. The jarring effect is amplified by the fact that the design of the game from 1-80 does basically nothing much to force the player to learn said detailed ins and outs of their class in the detail that the follow-on content expects, as a baseline, in order to not get laid out repeatedly.

[Dayra.7405]

@Gwynhara.7261 said:forcing players to overcome this by learning the detailed ins and outs of every aspect of their class

It’s not only that you have to learn your class to get better. You have to learn any (dangerous) opponent. Which attacks (Animations) are dangerous which aren’t? When do I have to dodge to avoid the attack? Which range does it have? Which of my skills help to hinder attacks on which mobs or block/evade/reflect/reduce damage of which attacks.

You also have to watch your surroundings to not lure new mobs, to not be surprised by wandering or respawning mobs. You have to watch out for signs of invisible mobs (till stealth detection (nuhoch-4) ), ...

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Tsakhi.8124 said:

@Shikaru.7618 said:

@Tsakhi.8124 said:

Story Time

I confess, one of the first characters I had, I boosted. So, I waddle my dumb butt into HoT, thinking "How bad could it be?" right? So, having had my butt handed to me too many times to count, I decided I'd level the good old fashioned way. (I was also wondering who the hell these people were and why were they so angry.) I learned the ins and outs of my class, had a dang good teacher and then went back to HoT and didn't die

as

much. I consider myself a very mediocre player. I eventually learned to read the enemies and study their tactics and that helped a lot. Just hang in there, my friend, it does get easier. If you need help, please feel free to add me and I'll see if I can help you out.

As for those saying "git gud" or anything else along those lines, have you considered that maybe you don't know the full story? Maybe, just maybe, try to have a little bit of empathy.

Edited because I'm sort of an addled brain dolyak.

There would be more empathy if the people complaining would instead:

1. Admit there is some shortcoming on their end in the form of game knowledge, or physical limitation.
2. Asked for help in overcoming these shortcomings

Instead we get people that are fully convinced they're perfect and it's in fact the games fault they're failing. Yes the game does a terrible job of teaching people how to play and theres a huge difficulty jump. It's not insurmountable with the right mindset.

In most cases, that's true and I'd completely agree. However, not once did the OP brag that they were good at this game. Unless I missed something, which is entirely possible because I'm running on zero hours of sleep, lol. I really do gotta learn better presentation.

The entire premise is that the game is the problem (not the player) and the OP has been rather rabidly defending that position. In other words, they aren't looking for advice. They're just here to complain and pick fights with other players. Well, you got what you were looking for, didn't you?

I have empathy, but this guy has no intention of listening to anything anyone has to say here. He just wants to be heard. Good! Be heard! But the rest of us have opinions, too. Be ready for that!

[maddoctor.2738]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:The entire premise is that the game is the problem (not the player) and the OP has been rather rabidly defending that position. In other words, they aren't looking for advice. They're just here to complain and pick fights with other players. Well, you got what you were looking for, didn't you?

I have empathy, but this guy has no intention of listening to anything anyone has to say here. He just wants to be heard. Good! Be heard! But the rest of us have opinions, too. Be ready for that!

The OP made only one post in this thread other than opening:

@DisabledVelociraptor.7865 said:Thank you very much for all the advice : )

Was polite and the thread they started was well written and on the subject. You are probably thinking of someone else that has been posting lately about the subject and is very much against anything the game has released in the last 8 years. But that wasn't the OP.

[Asum.4960]

@"Tails.9372" said:But if he runs an optimized build, is on the "right target" and still underperforms despite doing the thing he's "supposed to do" than it's on A-Net to fix this.

If someone is struggling at all in Open World they are not in any shape or form running an optimised build, as that's not even needed for OW.If you have a half decent open world build with 100% Crit Chance, 25 Might and Vuln, something which every profession can do these days, or at least come reasonably close to, it doesn't matter what weapon playstyle you enjoy etc., pretty much everything in Open World will be completely trivialized and melt before your eyes.

@"mindcircus.1506" said:The person who fails at something in this game and chooses not to find people to help or rise to the challenge themselves, but instead turns to the forums to argue for lower difficulty does not do so over an overtuned encounter.There are currently zero overtuned encounters in the game.

This game goes out of it's way to protect the player from the feeling of failure. You can show up at a world boss and autoattack the boss a few times, get immediately smoked, not bother to WP, beg for a rez and still get the same reward as the half dozen people who actually carried the encounter.You were not given any kind of feedback from the game that indicated poor play...hell if it happened at Tequatl you might even get an ascended chest.

It's no small wonder then that when the same player goes from "beating the elder dragon of death" by pressing 1 to getting savaged by 5 pocket raptors that they think the problem is with the game. They've never had to pass a DPS check, and every single boss they have ever fought could be beaten in a battle of attrition. Imagine that player who goes from Frostgorge Sound to Verdant Brink.Both are, on the surface, level 80 content.

There isn't a class in this game that doesn't have a tool or two to deal with pocket raptors efficiently but in this very thread we see examples of this "The problem isnt me" mentality. It's easier for the player's ego to maintain the fantasy that they are amazing and that the developers are somehow at fault than admit that they didn't know about a skill they could have slotted on their bar at any moment while out of combat, or that they have put on gear that doesn't leverage their skills and traits....or that the dodge tutorial they skipped past in Queensdale might have actually been relevant.

Agreed. I would really like to see a study being done on where the mindset of "the game forces me to change my playtsyle" is coming from, and if those players would actually enjoy a game so simplistic that from the moment you start to forever more they never need to think, change and improve with no relevant game mechanics anyone ever needs to adapt to as the game progresses. And if those players would be happy with that, why they chose to play an (MMO)RPG of all things, in which player and character progression usually is a fundamental game pillar.

Yes, GW2 does a bad job at teaching those game mechanics since the core/leveling experience is so easy that they can all be ignored.I'm sure there are plenty level 80 players who still think for example that you need to dodge out of AoE's to avoid them, instead of being able to just dodge in them, etc., and a little tutorial to dodge through some spikes, followed by 100h+ of content until HoT in which you never need to actively dodge isn't going to help that.But as you say, that doesn't mean the problem lies in HoT and it's perceived difficulty, but in the lack of player preparation leading up to it.

If someone is disabled that's one thing, although again, there are builds with which one literally only has to press 3-5 buttons casually while standing still to easily clear 99% of HoT solo.Otherwise it's just an opportunity for player growth and nobody has to be an "elite hardcore player" to easily clear that content. Not even close.

To me these PvE players who just blame the game as being unfair while disregarding any advice of people who clearly are fine with the content seem to have the same toxic mindset as the PvP players who always rage at their teammates when things go wrong, rather than trying to consider that maybe they themselves could have easily done something different and looking for ways to always learn and improve.It's the same harmful and toxic mindset to protect their ego at the cost of their own improvement and enjoyment (and that of those around them).

[Tails.9372]

@"Asum.4960" said:If someone is struggling at all in Open World they are not in any shape or form running an optimised build, as that's not even needed for OW.If you have a half decent open world build with 100% Crit Chance, 25 Might and Vuln, something which every profession can do these days, or at least come reasonably close to, it doesn't matter what weapon playstyle you enjoy etc., pretty much everything in Open World will be completely trivialized and melt before your eyes.You don't need to struggle to acknowledge that there are some issues here. Like I said some weapon sets punish you for doing the break bars, now these sets can still deal with the things OW usually throws at them but I don't think that "just ignore game mechanics" is a good thing to incentivise.

[kharmin.7683]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I think it'd almost be better to deal with the toxicity of unmoderated forums...which is what I gather most players do.Isn't that what reddit is for?

[mindcircus.1506]

@Asum.4960 said:

@"Tails.9372" said:But if he runs an optimized build, is on the "right target" and still underperforms despite doing the thing he's "supposed to do" than it's on A-Net to fix this.

If someone is struggling at all in Open World they are not in any shape or form running an optimised build, as that's not even needed for OW.If you have a half decent open world build with 100% Crit Chance, 25 Might and Vuln, something which every profession can do these days, or at least come reasonably close to, it doesn't matter what weapon playstyle you enjoy etc., pretty much everything in Open World will be completely trivialized and melt before your eyes.I don't believe this to be true. While putting together a decent build certainly helps matters, it also needs to be played correctly. You can lead someone to a pretty comfortable build with decent equipment and they can still struggle when they are new with things like targetting or the platforming this game has. The combat speed, the identifying when to dodge and when to stand your ground... there's a lot of things a comfortable build cannot address.For some players a healthy amount if Vit is far more important than self-stacking 25 might.This doesn't even speak to those who are suffering from some form of physical impairment.I think it's important that when we have these discussions we don't make blanket statements such as "As long as you have a build like this you will be fine". What works for one person does not work for all, and saying "your build must self stack 25 might, apply vuln and give you 100% crit chance" just creates a different kind of meta for players who don't need or want meta to begin with.Agreed. I would really like to see a study being done on where the mindset of "the game

forces

me to change my playtsyle" is coming from, and if those players would actually enjoy a game so simplistic that from the moment you start to forever more they never need to think, change and improve with no relevant game mechanics anyone ever needs to adapt to as the game progresses. And if those players would be happy with that, why they chose to play an (MMO)RPG of all things, in which player and character progression usually is a fundamental game pillar.A good example of this is DCUO which @"battledrone.8315" has brought up a few times and is a game I am pretty familiar with.In DCUO I choose a power set. My power set defines my "role" in a team. All power sets have a Damage Role and one other (Tank, Healer or "Control" which is just a energy healer). This role is set via a drop down menu. If I want to play DPS, I set myself for Damage, if I want to Tank and my power set allows it, I choose Tank. The game then prevents me from even equipping items that I cannot set my role to. Other than that I have a loadout of powers on my bar that can be changed and a small single line trait system with a few small choices. But if I want to make changes to my traits I need to respec, and that involves a time and currency sink.And that's it... there is no adaptation, very little experimentation, very little flexibility.... and consequently, very little room for me to bork my toon.The progression is similar to most other MMOs. My toon grows more powerful as I get better gear. That "mmo progression" itch is satisfied by a gear treadmill. We can argue the merits of this all we want, but millions of WoW players have proven that a gear treadmill is a perfectly viable MMO progression system.There's nothing wrong with this kind of system. It appeals to a large number of players.It is however the antithesis of some of the core design systems behind Guild Wars 2, and coming onto the forums to berate the developers for it is roughly analogous to shouting at a dog for not being a cat.If someone is disabled that's one thing, although again, there are builds with which one literally only has to press 3-5 buttons casually while standing still to easily clear 99% of HoT solo.Again these kind of blanket statements aren't true, don't address the needs of many players and are not healthy to the discussion.I can give a new player perfect exotic gear, and a solid build and they still wont know when to dodge, or more importantly when not to dodge. A good build doesn't teach the muscle memory that only experience will give.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@"Tails.9372" said:But if he runs an optimized build, is on the "right target" and still underperforms despite doing the thing he's "supposed to do" than it's on A-Net to fix this.

If someone is struggling at all in Open World they are not in any shape or form running an optimised build, as that's not even needed for OW.If you have a half decent open world build with 100% Crit Chance, 25 Might and Vuln, something which every profession can do these days, or at least come reasonably close to, it doesn't matter what weapon playstyle you enjoy etc., pretty much everything in Open World will be completely trivialized and melt before your eyes.I don't believe this to be true. While putting together a decent build certainly helps matters, it also needs to be played correctly. You can lead someone to a pretty comfortable build with decent equipment and they can still struggle when they are new with things like targetting or the platforming this game has. The combat speed, the identifying when to dodge and when to stand your ground... there's a lot of things a comfortable build cannot address.For some players a healthy amount if Vit is far more important than self-stacking 25 might.This doesn't even speak to those who are suffering from some form of physical impairment.I think it's important that when we have these discussions we don't make blanket statements such as "As long as you have a build like this you will be fine". What works for one person does not work for all, and saying "your build must self stack 25 might, apply vuln and give you 100% crit chance" just creates a different kind of meta for players who don't need or want meta to begin with.Agreed. I would really like to see a study being done on where the mindset of "the game

forces

me to change my playtsyle" is coming from, and if those players would actually enjoy a game so simplistic that from the moment you start to forever more they never need to think, change and improve with no relevant game mechanics anyone ever needs to adapt to as the game progresses. And if those players would be happy with that, why they chose to play an (MMO)RPG of all things, in which player and character progression usually is a fundamental game pillar.A good example of this is DCUO which @"battledrone.8315" has brought up a few times and is a game I am pretty familiar with.In DCUO I choose a power set. My power set defines my "role" in a team. All power sets have a Damage Role and one other (Tank, Healer or "Control" which is just a energy healer). This role is set via a drop down menu. If I want to play DPS, I set myself for Damage, if I want to Tank and my power set allows it, I choose Tank. The game then prevents me from even equipping items that I cannot set my role to. Other than that I have a loadout of powers on my bar that can be changed and a small single line trait system with a few small choices. But if I want to make changes to my traits I need to respec, and that involves a time and currency sink.And that's it... there is no adaptation, very little experimentation, very little flexibility.... and consequently, very little room for me to bork my toon.The progression is similar to most other MMOs. My toon grows more powerful as I get better gear. That "mmo progression" itch is satisfied by a gear treadmill. We can argue the merits of this all we want, but millions of WoW players have proven that a gear treadmill is a perfectly viable MMO progression system.There's nothing wrong with this kind of system. It appeals to a large number of players.It is however the antithesis of some of the core design systems behind Guild Wars 2, and coming onto the forums to berate the developers for it is roughly analogous to shouting at a dog for not being a cat.If someone is disabled that's one thing, although again, there are builds with which one literally only has to press 3-5 buttons casually while standing still to easily clear 99% of HoT solo.Again these kind of blanket statements aren't true, don't address the needs of many players and are not healthy to the discussion.I can give a new player perfect exotic gear, and a solid build and they still wont know when to dodge, or more importantly when not to dodge. A good build doesn't teach the muscle memory that only experience will give.

Actually, there are builds where you can literally just push buttons. It doesn't address the "issue" of play however you want, but if you want to roll face just go staff mirage. You can't lose as long as you just keep pushing 1 and dodge. Literally.

[Asum.4960]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@"Tails.9372" said:But if he runs an optimized build, is on the "right target" and still underperforms despite doing the thing he's "supposed to do" than it's on A-Net to fix this.

If someone is struggling at all in Open World they are not in any shape or form running an optimised build, as that's not even needed for OW.If you have a half decent open world build with 100% Crit Chance, 25 Might and Vuln, something which every profession can do these days, or at least come reasonably close to, it doesn't matter what weapon playstyle you enjoy etc., pretty much everything in Open World will be completely trivialized and melt before your eyes.I don't believe this to be true. While putting together a decent build certainly helps matters, it also needs to be played correctly. You can lead someone to a pretty comfortable build with decent equipment and they can still struggle when they are new with things like targetting or the platforming this game has. The combat speed, the identifying when to dodge and when to stand your ground... there's a lot of things a comfortable build cannot address.For some players a healthy amount if Vit is far more important than self-stacking 25 might.This doesn't even speak to those who are suffering from some form of physical impairment.I think it's important that when we have these discussions we don't make blanket statements such as "As long as you have a build like this you will be fine". What works for one person does not work for all, and saying "your build must self stack 25 might, apply vuln and give you 100% crit chance" just creates a different kind of meta for players who don't need or want meta to begin with.Agreed. I would really like to see a study being done on where the mindset of "the game

forces

me to change my playtsyle" is coming from, and if those players would actually enjoy a game so simplistic that from the moment you start to forever more they never need to think, change and improve with no relevant game mechanics anyone ever needs to adapt to as the game progresses. And if those players would be happy with that, why they chose to play an (MMO)RPG of all things, in which player and character progression usually is a fundamental game pillar.A good example of this is DCUO which @"battledrone.8315" has brought up a few times and is a game I am pretty familiar with.In DCUO I choose a power set. My power set defines my "role" in a team. All power sets have a Damage Role and one other (Tank, Healer or "Control" which is just a energy healer). This role is set via a drop down menu. If I want to play DPS, I set myself for Damage, if I want to Tank and my power set allows it, I choose Tank. The game then prevents me from even equipping items that I cannot set my role to. Other than that I have a loadout of powers on my bar that can be changed and a small single line trait system with a few small choices. But if I want to make changes to my traits I need to respec, and that involves a time and currency sink.And that's it... there is no adaptation, very little experimentation, very little flexibility.... and consequently, very little room for me to bork my toon.The progression is similar to most other MMOs. My toon grows more powerful as I get better gear. That "mmo progression" itch is satisfied by a gear treadmill. We can argue the merits of this all we want, but millions of WoW players have proven that a gear treadmill is a perfectly viable MMO progression system.There's nothing wrong with this kind of system. It appeals to a large number of players.It is however the antithesis of some of the core design systems behind Guild Wars 2, and coming onto the forums to berate the developers for it is roughly analogous to shouting at a dog for not being a cat.If someone is disabled that's one thing, although again, there are builds with which one literally only has to press 3-5 buttons casually while standing still to easily clear 99% of HoT solo.Again these kind of blanket statements aren't true, don't address the needs of many players and are not healthy to the discussion.I can give a new player perfect exotic gear, and a solid build and they still wont know when to dodge, or more importantly when not to dodge. A good build doesn't teach the muscle memory that only experience will give.

Actually, there are builds where you can literally just push buttons. It doesn't address the "issue" of play however you want, but if you want to roll face just go staff mirage. You can't lose as long as you just keep pushing 1 and dodge. Literally.

There are tons of virtually unfailable immortal open world builds like that, like my current favourite to recommend: Power Renegade.

All you need to do is press is Darkrazor's Daring and Icerazor's Ire in Kalla, swap to Shiro and activate Impossible Odds, then AA.

20k DPS, 5 Target Large AoE that perma Dazes, instant 25 Might, 25 Vuln, Fury, Protection, self heals passively for 2k HP per second with Battle Scars, never Dodge, gets 73% crit chance just from Traits.

Something like this.

[battledrone.8315]

@Cuks.8241 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:1: the customer has the ultimate power, when there is no money left to fund it, it will automatically go away2: chess is fine example, it ALWAYS has the same rules. so, why shouldnt pressing the same button have the same function?because THEY CHANGED THE RULES

What rules have they changed that doesn't let you do Hot anymore? Sure there are balance changes and new additions but we are talking open world content and just some basic adaptations to you build. Usually just changing one or 2 utility skills makes a world of difference.The rules are the same only your opponent got harder and maybe having another opening next to the Sicilian defense would be a good idea to mix it up.

lol. i got stuck at the guy that is sitting in a shield bubble. HE is totally invulnerable, but he can still fill the entire area with bombs just by waving his handin short,,,a ONE WAY FORCE FIELD WITH UNLIMITED ENDURANCE. not even STAR TREK has this advanced tech. come again?

[AliamRationem.5172]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:1: the customer has the ultimate power, when there is no money left to fund it, it will automatically go away2: chess is fine example, it ALWAYS has the same rules. so, why shouldnt pressing the same button have the same function?because THEY CHANGED THE RULES

What rules have they changed that doesn't let you do Hot anymore? Sure there are balance changes and new additions but we are talking open world content and just some basic adaptations to you build. Usually just changing one or 2 utility skills makes a world of difference.The rules are the same only your opponent got harder and maybe having another opening next to the Sicilian defense would be a good idea to mix it up.

lol. i got stuck at the guy that is sitting in a shield bubble. HE is totally invulnerable, but he can still fill the entire area with bombs just by waving his handin short,,,a ONE WAY FORCE FIELD WITH UNLIMITED ENDURANCE. not even STAR TREK has this advanced tech. come again?

Hmm, invulnerable boss. Nothing seems to work. Yet he's throwing bombs. I wonder what I could do with those?

[battledrone.8315]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:1: the customer has the ultimate power, when there is no money left to fund it, it will automatically go away2: chess is fine example, it ALWAYS has the same rules. so, why shouldnt pressing the same button have the same function?because THEY CHANGED THE RULES

What rules have they changed that doesn't let you do Hot anymore? Sure there are balance changes and new additions but we are talking open world content and just some basic adaptations to you build. Usually just changing one or 2 utility skills makes a world of difference.The rules are the same only your opponent got harder and maybe having another opening next to the Sicilian defense would be a good idea to mix it up.

lol. i got stuck at the guy that is sitting in a shield bubble. HE is totally invulnerable, but he can still fill the entire area with bombs just by waving his handin short,,,a ONE WAY FORCE FIELD WITH UNLIMITED ENDURANCE. not even STAR TREK has this advanced tech. come again?

Hmm, invulnerable boss. Nothing seems to work. Yet he's throwing bombs. I wonder what I could do with those?

i know, but he is teleporting around too. and of course, there are adds . and dont giver me that "call for help " BS , i spammed chat for for many hoursbut the rules DOES change. logic would imply, that the bombs wouldnt be able to get OUT of the bubble, if they can IMPACT on the bubble.but...somehow...they can. ITS MAGIC!

[kharmin.7683]

@"mindcircus.1506" said:

In DCUO I choose a power set. My power set defines my "role" in a team. All power sets have a Damage Role and one other (Tank, Healer or "Control" which is just a energy healer). This role is set via a drop down menu. If I want to play DPS, I set myself for Damage, if I want to Tank and my power set allows it, I choose Tank. The game then prevents me from even equipping items that I cannot set my role to. Other than that I have a loadout of powers on my bar that can be changed and a small single line trait system with a few small choices. But if I want to make changes to my traits I need to respec, and that involves a time and currency sink.And that's it... there is no adaptation, very little experimentation, very little flexibility.... and consequently, very little room for me to bork my toon.But, doesn't this go against ANet's design of characters not having a specific, trinity role? The fact that every class should be proficient in all three roles (to varying degrees, sure) is what leads to this perceived notion that HoT makes things dramatically harder. In my opinion, it is exactly that players do not wish to change builds and adapt to the different content difficulty. I don't believe that the issue is with HoT, but with the stubborn players. And that's saying a lot from me being a very casual player.

For me, I think that pre-nerf HoT was too difficult. It was way more than I could handle, even making build changes. I'm just not that good of a player. After nerf, I was able to get through the content but it was still quite difficult for me. I think that the HoT maps are wonderful in design and am glad for the level of difficulty that they bring for those players who enjoy it. I do not and hardly step foot in HoT maps, but that's ok because there are plenty of other places I can go.

[Adenin.5973]

Don't go full glascannon with your build/equipment unless you are experienced to know what you're doing or unless you have a class that can still survive.If you go with more defensive gear and a build that has some self heals/survivability built in, it's really pretty easy to do.

I often see new players that either have no build whatsoever and do zero damage and have zero survivability, or they use some meta build that is meant for raids and still hits not really strong, due to weak self buffing ability and those players are most of the time onehitted by some random mobs.

Go to YT, search for your your class/elitespec that you want and just search "Solo PvE build" and filter for last year. Tons of great builds that pull most of the time more AoE dmg than most glascannon builds would under such conditions, and these builds also provide tons of CC and survivability for every open world/dungeon/story or even some fractal content and allow you more often than not to solo champions or legendary bosses all on your own, once you've truly mastered your class

[mindcircus.1506]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"mindcircus.1506" said:

In DCUO I choose a power set. My power set defines my "role" in a team. All power sets have a Damage Role and one other (Tank, Healer or "Control" which is just a energy healer). This role is set via a drop down menu. If I want to play DPS, I set myself for Damage, if I want to Tank and my power set allows it, I choose Tank. The game then prevents me from even equipping items that I cannot set my role to. Other than that I have a loadout of powers on my bar that can be changed and a small single line trait system with a few small choices. But if I want to make changes to my traits I need to respec, and that involves a time and currency sink.And that's it... there is no adaptation, very little experimentation, very little flexibility.... and consequently, very little room for me to bork my toon.But, doesn't this go against ANet's design of characters not having a specific, trinity role?This goes against the very core of several design philosophies of GW2...not the least of which is the absence of a rigid trinity.Lack of gear treadmill, respecs that require time/currency sinks,...the list goes onThe fact that every class should be proficient in all three roles (to varying degrees, sure) is what leads to this perceived notion that HoT makes things dramatically harder.

It is not a perception issue.HoT is indeed harder than the content before it....and in most cases afterward.I don't believe that the issue is with HoT, but with the stubborn players. And that's saying a lot from me being a very casual player.There are lots of "issues" with the difficulty of HoT. Some of it is players being stubborn and choosing to gimp themselves in the name of "play style" or "theme". Some of it is a gear system that never explains a few basics. Some of it the way that the fundamentals of combat and boon play are taught in optional and skippable content.Saying the issue is stubborn players may be a little myopic.For me, I think that pre-nerf HoT was too difficult. It was way more than I could handle, even making build changes. I'm just not that good of a player. After nerf, I was able to get through the content but it was still quite difficult for me. I think that the HoT maps are wonderful in design and am glad for the level of difficulty that they bring for those players who enjoy it. I do not and hardly step foot in HoT maps, but that's ok because there are plenty of other places I can go.And that's a decent perspective.... seeing yourself as a player with options and not a customer who must be gratified.

[morty.4019]

As a (relatively) new (and very casual) player to Guild Wars 2 (been playing about 2 months) I have to agree that the first time doing HoT was a real eye-opener, I was getting one-shotted at every turn (Smokescales and those pesky pocket raptors) and was wondering what the hell was going on to the point of almost quitting because "why make a story area so kitten difficult to progress in?!!". However, after taking a breather, going back to do some more of the core world content to increase Hero Points and having a read of the forums I learnt to adapt and watch out for certain enemies attacks. Granted, I still get overwhelmed at times (especially when I don't pay attention to where I'm going/what's around me) but it's all part of the learning process, just try, try again as they always say (well, except for Yoda that is).

I do think there is a big ramp up between core and HoT as previously noted, with little transition in the game compared to other MMO's. Certainly upgrading to Exotic equipment helped me (easy enough to pick up full gear set for under 10g) and (even though I bought it half way through HoT) I found LW2 a bit of help in adjusting too when I realised what they were. Though LW3 - seriously, how the hell you beat some of those bosses with no deaths is beyond me - thank god for checkpoints.

Saying that, I love the HoT story line and the areas within it (even if I still get a bit lost in it at times) and can't wait to try it with my Guardian. Could Anet have done more to help with the transition between core and hot? Maybe. Is it that bad that it stops you playing? I don't believe it is, as others have said, it's about learning your character, adjusting your play method, and getting some upgrades here and there. If it's really bad, ask around for help - I've found this game to have the most mature and helpful community in an MMO to date (or I've been really lucky to miss the toxic players).

I can certainly see why some have said HoT was/is intended for group play and personally I'm glad it has been made a little more solo friendly as I'm not a big fan of forced group play to progress through a story arc. Just be glad it's not like FFXI (well, when it first came out anyway) where EVERYTHING required a party for progress and if you died, you lost XP and levels!

Anyway, each to their own and OP - I hope you find a way to enjoy HoT a bit more and progress through it :)