Why play any other support but Scrapper?

[aaron.7850]

Playing Scrapper has ruined other healers for me.Finally leveled an engineer and decided to try scrapper, the learning curve was very easy compared to Firebrand or druid, I tested it all day long in wvw and I couldnt believe what I was experiencing.Gargantuan amounts of healing, gargantuan amount of cleansing, gargantuan amount of utility... I just dont see the point of playing my other healers now, maybe except Firebrand but even then Scrapper is easier to play.For a class that is supposed to be "jack of all trades", medikit scrapper is more like "master of all trades".

I am not calling for a nerf to scrapper, if anything, please buff Ventari Revs and Druids so they can provide more to the fight.

[Infusion.7149]

Let's see...Stability (firebrands)heal range / ranged CC (staff tempest)boon rip / range pressure (cele scourge)boon rip / CC (shout spellbreaker)

Scrapper is strong in a group because med kit scales with boons

[Sovereign.1093]

Well. Hehe If you buff those, you may regret it. Because in the right hands they are already op.

Try this.

Have a fb scrapper and rev (core jalis malyx) in your party and see how stronger you guys become.

With scrapper, is potential stealth. So imagine one per party and becomes op.

[Strider.7849]

@"aaron.7850" said:Playing Scrapper has ruined other healers for me.Finally leveled an engineer and decided to try scrapper, the learning curve was very easy compared to Firebrand or druid, I tested it all day long in wvw and I couldnt believe what I was experiencing.Gargantuan amounts of healing, gargantuan amount of cleansing, gargantuan amount of utility... I just dont see the point of playing my other healers now, maybe except Firebrand but even then Scrapper is easier to play.For a class that is supposed to be "jack of all trades", medikit scrapper is more like "master of all trades".

I am not calling for a nerf to scrapper, if anything, please buff Ventari Revs and Druids so they can provide more to the fight.

Well you're comparing one of the best supports in WvW to the worst, druid. Druid has decent burst heals but is gated by celestial avatar, needs to be aimed, has no access to reliable stability (the elite is on too long a cooldown), and outputs no boons (the might stacking is severely nerfed in WvW as well). Also it's weapons have bad cleave with bad utility (immob has a long cast time with thin radius and needs investment into expertise to immob for a second, the water field being okay).

I agree, scrapper doesn't need nerfing, but instead druid needs to be fixed. Many many threads have been posted on this but for some reason druid keeps getting nerfed every patch. It needs a rework

[bambi.6214]

Scrapper (and engi in general) has hardly any shared stability, like others mentioned. On top of that your boon output is dependent on condition application of your enemy. If you had only scrappers you'd run into battle butt-naked in terms of boons, except some potential swiftness , regen and 3 stacks of stability.

[Voltekka.2375]

Druid is never used in blobbing wvw, firebrand has a different role, tempest fills cleansing role, so you pretty much compare apples to oranges

[Virdo.1540]

@Sovereign.1093 said:Well. Hehe If you buff those, you may regret it. Because in the right hands they are already op.

Try this.

Have a fb scrapper and rev (core jalis malyx) in your party and see how stronger you guys become.

With scrapper, is potential stealth. So imagine one per party and becomes op.

this is not ventari. Also we would have to let one of the other 2 legends fall for it.

[Sugar Min.5834]

@"aaron.7850" said:Playing Scrapper has ruined other healers for me.Finally leveled an engineer and decided to try scrapper, the learning curve was very easy compared to Firebrand or druid, I tested it all day long in wvw and I couldnt believe what I was experiencing.Gargantuan amounts of healing, gargantuan amount of cleansing, gargantuan amount of utility... I just dont see the point of playing my other healers now, maybe except Firebrand but even then Scrapper is easier to play.For a class that is supposed to be "jack of all trades", medikit scrapper is more like "master of all trades".

I am not calling for a nerf to scrapper, if anything, please buff Ventari Revs and Druids so they can provide more to the fight.

So much exaggeration and assumption :) It is quite clear that you calling for a nerf to Scrapper but doing it very discreetly and indirectly. You know ANet never buff skills for all these years but only nerf them. Even when they said they are doing a balancing or making some changes, in the end it always tally to a "net " nerf. Always. I believe you never play FB or Tempest that's why you assumed that Scrapper has the " gargantuan " amount of every thing. Each support class has the gargantuan amount of one or two things, but never all. Please try playing actively a few months of support FB or pure healer Tempest so that you will know who has the gargantuan amount of whatever.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Infusion.7149 said:Let's see...Stability (firebrands)heal range / ranged CC (staff tempest)boon rip / range pressure (cele scourge)boon rip / CC (shout spellbreaker)

Scrapper is strong in a group because med kit scales with boons

You omitted dagger/x tempest which will out cleanse a scrapper while putting out respectable AoE damage and CC on a melee push.

And that's kind of the point. Scrapper has a place, but it isn't a jack of all trades as the OP suggests, it has strengths and weaknesses like everyone else.

Staff Tempest has crazy good heal throughput and solid ranged CC, but they fall behind the level of the defensive and offensive boons a Dagger/x Tempest can give, never mind what can be done on a Firebrand.

Offensively a Scrapper is rather mediocre compared to the damage output of a Firebrand with burning, reflects and retaliation, or a Tempest with overloads, auras and shouts.

If you broke down what support builds bring to a group (boons, condition cleanse, CC, damage, utility, etc) you won't find a single build that is best at all of them.

[aaron.7850]

@Mil.3562 said:

@"aaron.7850" said:Playing Scrapper has ruined other healers for me.Finally leveled an engineer and decided to try scrapper, the learning curve was very easy compared to Firebrand or druid, I tested it all day long in wvw and I couldnt believe what I was experiencing.Gargantuan amounts of healing, gargantuan amount of cleansing, gargantuan amount of utility... I just dont see the point of playing my other healers now, maybe except Firebrand but even then Scrapper is easier to play.For a class that is supposed to be "jack of all trades", medikit scrapper is more like "master of all trades".

I am not calling for a nerf to scrapper, if anything, please buff Ventari Revs and Druids so they can provide more to the fight.

So much exaggeration and assumption :) It is quite clear that you calling for a nerf to Scrapper but doing it very discreetly and indirectly. You know ANet never buff skills for all these years but only nerf them. Even when they said they are doing a balancing or making some changes, in the end it always tally to a

"net "

nerf. Always. I believe you never play FB or Tempest that's why you assumed that Scrapper has the "

gargantuan

" amount of every thing. Each support class has the

gargantuan

amount of one or two things, but never all. Please try playing actively a few months of support FB or pure healer Tempest so that you will know who has the

gargantuan

amount of whatever.

I dont want Scrapper nerfs, I want Druid and Ventari revs to be buffed in wvw.

[Jski.6180]

@"Infusion.7149" said:Let's see...Stability (firebrands)heal range / ranged CC (staff tempest)boon rip / range pressure (cele scourge)boon rip / CC (shout spellbreaker)

Scrapper is strong in a group because med kit scales with boons

Scraper is strong because of its looping effects with boons on clears and condi conversion. As long as you have that the out put of healing from scraper will allways be stronger then any thing else in the game. As for its boon support due to the pool of boons it can give from conversion having the "stronger" or class defining boons your always going to have a broken support effect.

I would say there 2 support FB and scraper. CC tempest often becomes more of an means of giving the other team resistances. Boon rip is more from your "support" classes who are filling a dps roll.

[Fricken.3819]

Just make my Ventari Rev. work like Scourge shades and make my day. give it a 6 skill make f skill place tome and utility skills work around you 360 range without placement plz and thank you.

[Lahmia.2193]

Scrapper has pretty meh healing when compared to Firebrand or Tempest. It's strength comes from its ability to cleanse (or rather convert) conditions - via anti-toxin runes/purity of purpose or alturism runes/mortar kit, and easy on demand stealth.

Note - during SMC 3 way fights scrapper healing is good when only auto attacks activate and you can pssshhhh psshhhh psshhhh.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Don’t believe much of what you see here. Scrapper is right now, the best cleanser and now a way better healer in comparison to Tempest. The nerfs to Tempest deleted it from viability.

[Infusion.7149]

@Lahmia.2193 said:Scrapper has pretty meh healing when compared to Firebrand or Tempest. It's strength comes from its ability to cleanse (or rather convert) conditions - via anti-toxin runes/purity of purpose or alturism runes/mortar kit, and easy on demand stealth.

Note - during SMC 3 way fights scrapper healing is good when only auto attacks activate and you can pssshhhh psshhhh psshhhh.

Med blaster pulses three times and scales with boons ; the 600 range is quite generous. Even without crazy boon scaling it's roughly 500 health a second on up to 5 people at 1500 heal power. As such it is a great build for newer players that doesn't rely on comboing or timing so much , provided scout designation is given to make up for the lack of tagging enemies while camping med kit.It heals more than firebrand while moving and if the tempest isn't camping water on staff with full heal spec (1500+ heal power). In addition, firebrand mace needs the entire auto chain to connect for ~1.1K heal in 180 radius otherwise you're looking at mainly ~1K heals via Pure of Heart from aegis (12s cooldown on mace 3 Protector's Strike traited which has 240 radius, 20s cooldown on shield 4 Shield of Judgment , 9 to 12 seconds on Mantra of Solace with 180 radius / 450 range), Battle Presence sharing Absolute Resolution specced Virtue of Honor (<220 per second on up to 5 people) , and Selfless daring dodges (~100 health a second since it heals roughly 1K on up to 5 people).

Due to the power damage nerfs , aegis loses some of its value because the damage negated is less. So it wouldn't call it meh healing when the heal is quite competitive with firebrand mace auto, virtue sharing, and dodges combined. If Pure of Heart doesn't proc due to boon rip/strip/corrupt then the value is lost there since it only works on block. It gets better the more boons you have, so synergy with classes such as heralds or firebrands is a plus.

---

Ventari rev and druid have their own issues. Namely for druid , astral force generation (ability to remain in Celestial Avatar since staff is weak) and the pet not being permanently stowable. Ventari has no stunbreak and needs to micromanage the tablet as well as energy.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

The main features of zerg support classes:Scrapper - sustained healing, cleansing, superspeedFirebrand - boons (especially aegis/stab), side/passive healing, stunbreaks&tomesTempest - sustained and large group healing, cleansing, auras

In pirate ship pugs, healing/cleansing is usually more important. If you want to push anything, or survive getting pushed, FB is essential.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Virdo.1540 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:Well. Hehe If you buff those, you may regret it. Because in the right hands they are already op.

Try this.

Have a fb scrapper and rev (core jalis malyx) in your party and see how stronger you guys become.

With scrapper, is potential stealth. So imagine one per party and becomes op.

this is not ventari. Also we would have to let one of the other 2 legends fall for it.

Well you already got the fb and scrapper as healers. Why you need more? 2 healers is a five man party is basic. 1 healer is for pirateship zergs. And having 3 healers will make you tanky but will have hard time killing stuff.

Of course you can alter everyone else's builds so you can choose the healers you want and they can focus on that stuff.

Example

Fb warrior healer. The other 3 ae damage noon rip

Fb scrapper healer. The other 3 damage boon rip

Fb rev healer. The other 3 damage boon rip.

You can get rid of fb because of stab. And ranger stab while having more stacks , the other utilities is less useful.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Intensive healing on Engi is potentially the strongest in the game by far, but is dependant on allies having full boons.

Bringing the boons yourself is difficult, as it requires Purity of Purpose and some other traits, which make sacrifices like HGH for example which translates to less heals from Elixer Gun & Mortar Kit and less frequent revives from Elixer R. Similarity, it works best with Anticorrosion Plating which sacrifices Medical Dispersion Field which is like, half of the Engi's healing output, etc.

Thus at some point you'll need a Firebrand or even a Herald with you to heal effectively.

This delima is the very reason that alot of Engis chose to play as cleansers (and stealth frontliners as Scrapper) instead of trying to heal, because while the Engi healing is incredible, the cleansing builds are more efficient and effective.

But any buffer + Engi (don't even need Scrapper here) will always be the strongest combination for support.

[Strider.7849]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Infusion.7149 said:Let's see...Stability (firebrands)heal range / ranged CC (staff tempest)boon rip / range pressure (cele scourge)boon rip / CC (shout spellbreaker)

Scrapper is strong in a group because med kit scales with boons

You omitted dagger/x tempest which will out cleanse a scrapper while putting out respectable AoE damage and CC on a melee push.

And that's kind of the point. Scrapper has a place, but it isn't a jack of all trades as the OP suggests, it has strengths and weaknesses like everyone else.

Staff Tempest has crazy good heal throughput and solid ranged CC, but they fall behind the level of the defensive and offensive boons a Dagger/x Tempest can give, never mind what can be done on a Firebrand.

Offensively a Scrapper is rather mediocre compared to the damage output of a Firebrand with burning, reflects and retaliation, or a Tempest with overloads, auras and shouts.

If you broke down what support builds bring to a group (boons, condition cleanse, CC, damage, utility, etc) you won't find a single build that is best at all of them.

As someone who's currently playing heal tempest (since my druid is broke :( ) and have played support scrapper as well.. I can say that while tempest can cleanse more with soldier runes, the scrappers ability to convert conditions to boons is far more valuable. It also doesn't get ping longed around as much as tempest - the reflects are about on par with each other; tempest has more access to reflects but the duration is far shorter, heal wise tempest wins there. Scrapper has better damage and group stealth.. also the superspeed is amazing. Tempest has better CC.

I find the scrapper easier to play and more valuable to a group in general. The thing that really irks me with engineer as a whole is the kits are very outdated in my opinion (I know the engineer forum feels differently) and I like to customize and change things up every so often. Ele has options and diversity, scrapper is a bit more limited

[Virdo.1540]

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Virdo.1540 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:Well. Hehe If you buff those, you may regret it. Because in the right hands they are already op.

Try this.

Have a fb scrapper and rev (core jalis malyx) in your party and see how stronger you guys become.

With scrapper, is potential stealth. So imagine one per party and becomes op.

this is not ventari. Also we would have to let one of the other 2 legends fall for it.

Well you already got the fb and scrapper as healers. Why you need more? 2 healers is a five man party is basic. 1 healer is for pirateship zergs. And having 3 healers will make you tanky but will have hard time killing stuff.

Of course you can alter everyone else's builds so you can choose the healers you want and they can focus on that stuff.

Example

Fb warrior healer. The other 3 ae damage noon rip

Fb scrapper healer. The other 3 damage boon rip

Fb rev healer. The other 3 damage boon rip.

You can get rid of fb because of stab. And ranger stab while having more stacks , the other utilities is less useful.

its not having "more healers" ,its about having a bigger choice to play

even if people dont have all classes and maybe even prefer to only play one main character (like me) ,they could play healer.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Virdo.1540 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Virdo.1540 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:Well. Hehe If you buff those, you may regret it. Because in the right hands they are already op.

Try this.

Have a fb scrapper and rev (core jalis malyx) in your party and see how stronger you guys become.

With scrapper, is potential stealth. So imagine one per party and becomes op.

this is not ventari. Also we would have to let one of the other 2 legends fall for it.

Well you already got the fb and scrapper as healers. Why you need more? 2 healers is a five man party is basic. 1 healer is for pirateship zergs. And having 3 healers will make you tanky but will have hard time killing stuff.

Of course you can alter everyone else's builds so you can choose the healers you want and they can focus on that stuff.

Example

Fb warrior healer. The other 3 ae damage noon rip

Fb scrapper healer. The other 3 damage boon rip

Fb rev healer. The other 3 damage boon rip.

You can get rid of fb because of stab. And ranger stab while having more stacks , the other utilities is less useful.

its not having "more healers" ,its about having a bigger choice to play

even if people dont have all classes and maybe even prefer to only play one main character (like me) ,they could play healer.

Aye. It's unfortunate that the optimal group will always have an fb rev

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

well, good thing tempest can cleanse ten people at once. So you dont need one in every party.FB healing... dunno. I see more heals from every other class. With cleanses the gap between tempest, scrapper and fb is HUGE.The only thing fb is good for is stab and aegis.

[Sovereign.1093]

Fb is good for that 8 water fields too blast it especially team quickness

[Dawdler.8521]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:well, good thing tempest can cleanse ten people at once. So you dont need one in every party.FB healing... dunno. I see more heals from every other class. With cleanses the gap between tempest, scrapper and fb is HUGE.The only thing fb is good for is stab and aegis.Then why do everone call for fbs? Its all commanders want. They dont care about the rest. They dont even care about skill. You can bring an fb in level 20 blue gear and commanders will be like thank god we have another fb.

Is this kind of like the same situation where thieves are the worst roamers and shit at 1v1? I mean why do people even play that crap.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

why does everyone mention aegis as if its relevant? it blocks one attack lol, and isn't a stackable boon.