Putting "FUN" back into designs and balancing

[steki.1478]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@steki.1478 said:Because casuals dont care about balance, they care about looking pretty and doing shiny achievements.

funny, that the 'competitive' player are usually more shiny than the 'casuals'. Add to the people with some pvp badges trolling around starter zones - and I think you got something fundamentally wrong there.

I didnt say they they are the only people that have rights to be shiny lol. It's just that one playerbase cares only about fashion, while other one is involved in pretty much every corner of the game.

I've also never seen people trolling in starter zones or how pvp badges are relevant to anything in your comment or mine.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

That’s why it’s not fun. You want to heal? Go play firebrand.burst heal maybe, otherwise no.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@steki.1478 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@steki.1478 said:Because casuals dont care about balance, they care about looking pretty and doing shiny achievements.

funny, that the 'competitive' player are usually more shiny than the 'casuals'. Add to the people with some pvp badges trolling around starter zones - and I think you got something fundamentally wrong there.

I didnt say they they are the only people that have rights to be shiny lol. It's just that one playerbase cares only about fashion, while other one is involved in pretty much every corner of the game.

I've also never seen people trolling in starter zones or how pvp badges are relevant to anything in your comment or mine.

well, I mentor a lot in starter zones and if I get trolled, it is ALWAYS someone with a pvp badge up to gold. It is basically a 50/50 chance if someone trollish is there. An it applies, because those low-to-mid pvp players seem to have the need to show off.

You won't see openworld people trying to troll in wvw or pvp. Suck at it, yes. Outright trolling? no.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Swagger.1459

When I say vague, I’m talking about the concept itself being vague. “Fun” is a very very broad and general term. How do you make things more fun? There’s no concrete way to go about such a thing.

Fortnite has no classes, no dodging, relatively simple combat (point/shoot) but this game is still “fun.” Chess has 6 pieces, 64 places to go...and chess is still a “fun” game.

So it doesn’t matter what examples you provide. I’ve never played COH...there are probably many people that haven’t so your examples are useless to me. But I’m sure that it was probably a fun game...one way or another, and I’ll even take your word for it...but it holds no weight in trying to argue for the thesis of your post.

The question is what exactly makes something fun? And then how would you approach a developer with that? Would you say “make the game more fun please by changing spirits into facets.” There is a logical gap there, where you are missing a critical step in why does changing spirits to act like facets make the game fun...

The step your missing is about balance. Again the reason you aren’t having fun is because of build diversity being choked out by balance changes. So instead of saying “change spirits to facets,” you really should be talking about balance and build diversity but you probably have no general thesis on those topics.

[steki.1478]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@steki.1478 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@steki.1478 said:Because casuals dont care about balance, they care about looking pretty and doing shiny achievements.

funny, that the 'competitive' player are usually more shiny than the 'casuals'. Add to the people with some pvp badges trolling around starter zones - and I think you got something fundamentally wrong there.

I didnt say they they are the only people that have rights to be shiny lol. It's just that one playerbase cares only about fashion, while other one is involved in pretty much every corner of the game.

I've also never seen people trolling in starter zones or how pvp badges are relevant to anything in your comment or mine.

well, I mentor a lot in starter zones and if I get trolled, it is ALWAYS someone with a pvp badge up to gold. It is basically a 50/50 chance if someone trollish is there. An it applies, because those low-to-mid pvp players seem to have the need to show off.

You won't see openworld people trying to troll in wvw or pvp. Suck at it, yes. Outright trolling? no.

Low-mid pvp rank has nothing to do with competitive playerbase since anyone can get those ranks. Trolls will troll regardless of their game mode or their casual/competitive play style. I've seen trolls everywhere and majority of them are bad, which doesnt say they are competitive nor casual since it can be either one so idk whats your point.

[Swagger.1459]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:@"Swagger.1459"

When I say vague, I’m talking about the concept itself being vague. “Fun” is a very very broad and general term. How do you make things more fun? There’s no concrete way to go about such a thing.

Fortnite has no classes, no dodging, relatively simple combat (point/shoot) but this game is still “fun.” Chess has 6 pieces, 64 places to go...and chess is still a “fun” game.

So it doesn’t matter what examples you provide. I’ve never played COH...there are probably many people that haven’t so your examples are useless to me. But I’m sure that it was probably a fun game...one way or another, and I’ll even take your word for it...but it holds no weight in trying to argue for the thesis of your post.

The question is what exactly makes something fun? And then how would you approach a developer with that? Would you say “make the game more fun please by changing spirits into facets.” There is a logical gap there, where you are missing a critical step in why does changing spirits to act like facets make the game fun...

The step your missing is about balance. Again the reason you aren’t having fun is because of build diversity being choked out by balance changes. So instead of saying “change spirits to facets,” you really should be talking about balance and build diversity but you probably have no general thesis on those topics.

"So Swagger, what does “fun” look like for you?... Well, I’m going to keep this as short and concise as possible. I’m not going to go into numbers, because I really don’t care about numbers... These would be my “balance for fun first” design thoughts and ideas…

• 2 Weapon slots on professions are "fun" for combat!… The team just made Holosmith the best Engineer spec for combat because it now can be made viable at any distance through the use of 2 quality weapons… 1 good built-in melee weapon and some optional mid to long ranged weapons. Enjoyment levels in combat, and competitiveness, will go up for Engineer and Elementalist if you make 2 weapon slots standard.
• Fast and quick casting attacks are “fun”!... Slow attacks and long cast times are not “fun” period. Pit your Necromance against every profession and it "feels" like playing in mud... The team can speed up slow and long casting attacks across all professions, and all that needs to be done to balance is adjust damage output down a little bit.
• Freedom of movement while attacking is “fun”!... Skills that root a player are not fun in a game designed for high mobility and positioning in combat. There are more than enough movement impairing effects being tossed around by opponents in spvp and wvw as is, and skill root designs kill the "fun" flow of battle. Removing all roots from weapons and skills, while balancing out damage numbers, would be way more "fun".
• “Joy of Movement” is “fun”… Just based off of a “fun feel”, it’s hella enjoyable to run around on Thief. Fast skills. Quick cast times. On demand positioning skills that are super smooth to use… Why not try to replicate that "fun" stuff for all professions somehow? https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills
• Having a “good fight” is “fun”!... Dying in seconds is not exciting. Killing a player in seconds is not healthy for the game because it just generates negativity and lack of interest to participate. The damage creep has gone through the roof while other areas have not been touched… https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/28024/increasing-ttk-would-be-a-healthy-change
• Weapon variety is “fun”!... I’m going to make a weapon improvement wish list for wvw and spvp later, but I just want to say this… There are a bunch of undesirable – mediocre weapons for pvp gameplay. This kills build diversity to a large degree. Example… Know how boring it is to run a Soulbeast build knowing that the best weapons for the build are weapons from August 2012? Staple Soulbeast weapons are Longbow and Greatsword. Druid Staff is not great at all. New Soulbeast main hand dagger, and the old off hand dagger, are almost useless outside of pve.. BORING… It was really awesome of the team to make improvements to Revenant swords and Guardian staff… - Think more efforts like those would hugely boost the “fun” factor for players and well worth the investment. Some examples of “fun designs” for weapons... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/58958/eye-on-necro-ideas, https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/56624/a-few-weapon-suggestions, https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36048/suggestions-to-make-working-condi-builds-for-every-mode-especially-wvw-and-spvp
• Playing the game and focusing on combat is “fun!.. Getting blasted for thousands of damage while needing to focus on building up and micromanage resources isn’t fun. Thief Initiative mechanics are the most “fun”, and well made for “fast- paced action combat”, of them all… The rest, well, not so much... It’s also really “fun” to have a skill there when ya need it, and only deal with a cooldown too. Alternative to having resource designs... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/43721/think-we-could-work-on-getting-rid-of-resource-mechanics-and-create-stances-instead
• Damage roles are super "fun"!... If heal and non-heal support builds, skills and designs were nearly as fluid, impactful, rewarding and “fun” as offensive specs.. THAT would be “fun”!... This is what I mean, and something I brought up to our awesome Ben P. before, and I want every reader to think about it... NOTE- Sorry, I can’t direct quote the below anymore…

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/52283/more-healers-in-pvp".... And on and on and on with examples...

Please talk about the concepts, not how I'm posting. Ty