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NA's Low Platinum population and its effect on PvP, also how to improve it


Chaith.8256

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@apharma.3741 said:Are you really about to disagree that Pro League didn't pay off for ESL and their advertising? Think very carefully about this Chaith, I know you like to disagree with me but you're getting close to shooting yourself in the foot.

LMAO what the heck are you talking about. I was just asking as to how you knew for a fact why they cancelled weekly ESL, and therefore are convinced its possible to bring it back.. no answer on that. My point is not that pro league paid off big time, seriously where are you getting that from? This conversation quality just went down the drain

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Great post.I'll play ranked PvP when I can queue an entire team myself. I don't like being punished for the mistakes of others. 2v2 ranked was incredibly fun and rewarding for skilled players, it should always be available. At least I carry 50% of the weight of my team in a 2v2.

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@"apharma.3741" said:It's not that ESLs are my wish list, it's that I think it's a better idea than "let's throw more rewards at people at Platinum rank" which solves nothing or "let's give PvP players access to everything via PvP" as all that does is stop players branching out to different content. If you have a better and more well thought out idea I'd be all up for hearing it though.

I disagree and think that throwing any bone to the match quality without causing a whole new slew of problems is something we should do, it can only have a positive impact on match quality, even if it's small in worst case. I personally would grind out a bunch of Black Lion weapon skins for example while on Covid19 leave.

Any cosmetic incentives to play the game will fix population issues better than sitting here loyal to the delusion that ESL can come back!

The reason why nobody, including myself, are throwing out more complicated and well thought out suggestions (as if I didn't think about this) is because they all carry the risk of flopping, backfiring hard, wasting huge developer resources, and don't have any more likelihood of succeeding. That's why I only suggested things that didn't have big risks backing it.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:Are you really about to disagree that Pro League didn't pay off for ESL and their advertising? Think very carefully about this Chaith, I know you like to disagree with me but you're getting close to shooting yourself in the foot.

LMAO what the heck are you talking about. I was just asking as to how you knew for a fact why they cancelled weekly ESL, and therefore are convinced its possible to bring it back.. no answer on that. My point is not that pro league paid off big time, seriously where are you getting that from? This conversation quality just went down the drain

It went down the hill when you accused me of "wild speculation" for stating: "They didn't renew because they were hoping the big GW2 Pro League tournaments would pay off, they didn't."

Whatever you think the cause of it not paying off is up to you, I didn't give a cause and either did you but you decided to drag the quality of the conversation downhill.

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:It's not that ESLs are my wish list, it's that I think it's a better idea than "let's throw more rewards at people at Platinum rank" which solves nothing or "let's give PvP players access to everything via PvP" as all that does is stop players branching out to different content. If you have a better and more well thought out idea I'd be all up for hearing it though.

I disagree and think that throwing any bone to the match quality without causing a whole new slew of problems is something we should do, it can only have a positive impact on match quality, even if it's small in worst case. I personally would grind out a bunch of Black Lion weapon skins for example while on Covid19 leave.

Any cosmetic incentives to play the game will fix population issues better than sitting here loyal to the delusion that ESL can come back!

The reason why nobody, including myself, are throwing out more complicated and well thought out suggestions (as if I didn't think about this) is because they all carry the risk of flopping, backfiring hard, wasting huge developer resources, and don't have any more likelihood of succeeding. That's why I only suggested things that didn't have big risks backing it.

Throwing more rewards at something very rarely plays out long term. Adding a revenue stream like BL keys to a repeatable easy to grind out chest falls into the category of ill thought out suggestions. You said it yourself "I personally would grind out a bunch of Black Lion weapon skins for example while on Covid19 leave." but think nothing of it's impact on either gem sales or the gold economy.

Instead of repeating myself I'll just copy and paste from earlier:Your idea misses the point because it's a blanket increase to rewards in platinum rank but the way you worded your problem it's the time period that's the issue not necessarily the rank as you're saying it's not an issue during prime. An incentive to play a little longer outside "peak" time might help, it won't be a magic bullet but extending prime time a little if done right.

That's regardless of whether I agree or disagree with your statements.

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@"apharma.3741" said:It went down the hill when you accused me of "wild speculation" for stating: "They didn't renew because they were hoping the big GW2 Pro League tournaments would pay off, they didn't."

Sorry, you may not like it, but it's a fact. You don't know which side(s) wasn't interested in renewing, or are privy to any of the negotiation between ArenaNet and ESL. For instance, why are you ruling out the fact that weekly ESL wasn't renewed because weekly ESL wasn't paying off? Still waiting.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:It went down the hill when you accused me of "wild speculation" for stating: "They didn't renew because they were hoping the big GW2 Pro League tournaments would pay off, they didn't."

Sorry, you may not like it, but it's a fact. You don't know which side(s) wasn't interested in renewing, or are privy to any of the negotiation between ArenaNet and ESL. For instance, why are you ruling out the fact that weekly ESL wasn't renewed because weekly ESL wasn't paying off? Still waiting.

Point me to the part in this sentence where I say who didn't want to renew:

"They didn't renew because they were hoping the big GW2 Pro League tournaments would pay off, they didn't." Now Drennon assumed it was ESL that didn't renew, I personally think differently however because that would be "wild speculation" I didn't say who only that it wasn't renewed because Pro League didn't pay off.

I stated that Pro League didn't pay off, this is a fact, it didn't.

As for Weekly ESLs they were stopped because Pro League was running, why they weren't started again would be "wild speculation" as I don't know and neither do you but it probably has a lot to do with how much Pro League didn't pay off.

However we do know that weekly ESLs were run from at least Mid October 2013 till Pro League start some time around November 2015, that's 2 years. You don't do that for 2 years if it's not worth it.

Edit: One of the early ESL weeklies from October 2013

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Fun > Prestige > Reward

Imo for incentive to play a game. Ideally, it would have all 3. GW2 has better combat, so asides from the meta being far more enjoyable for me pre-feb patch when cooldowns were lower and damage was higher, it's more fun than other MMO combat atm. Prestige is low. Rewards are trash. So, I barely play this game and when I do it's usually with friends or if I'm streaming. Otherwise, I really couldn't care less about this game and would rather do other things. 1v1 gamemode would have been great before they nerfed the damage and things actually died. I don't think it would work well in a tank meta.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Fun > Prestige > Reward

Imo for incentive to play a game

True. The idea is rewards = more people grind in plat = more match quality = more fun.

Which is fine but you have to understand that people have different reasons for playing a game. I like competition and fun fights. You can increase the rewards massively but I care more about the quality of the time I'm spending rather than how many shinies I get out of it. So if the gold per hour was something crazy but I wasn't enjoying ranked conquest, I don't really want to buy anything in particular so it wouldn't make a difference in the amount I que up.

Hence why I think that having a healthy amount of all 3 would draw people in. Rather than one over the other.

One of the issues is the constant nerfing making everything feel worse to play. Nerfing cooldowns and damage as much as they did drastically reduced fluidity. skill ceiling and floor, and made many things feel worse to play especially when builds don't die even when outplayed. More competition / guild capes / unique items for ranking = more prestige + better rewards.

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Nothing is saving PvP at this point. This isn't a matter of "increase the rewards and people will come"

Look at actually successful PvP games. League of Legends adds new champions every few months, and certainly faster and with

than GW2 has ever released a single balance patch. Same with the Street Fighter games throughout their various iterations. That's what you have to compete with and actually make a mark against.

GW2 basically needs an expansion level, well, expansion. Massively increasing the roster of new specializations. But unlike PoF it can't just throw it out there and then be done with it. And unlike HoT it can't leave literally unkillable specs while it tries to go big. Frankly when WoodenPotatoes was stream casting matches and making PvP videos while mulling over if he should actual make a new "Intro to PvP 2018" series was probably the best time to do so. But that time has passed and you can feel PvP's precipitous decline since then.

Basically GW2 needs a huge update, whether its a new game mode or an expansion's worth of new specs and ArenaNet needs to actually promote it. Like Imagine if Gw2's PvP got a simple trailer like this that hit 400,000 views and showed off gameplay and style the way even something like a small spinoff like this showed off;

Let alone the literally 60,000,000 views other games are able to get to advertise their new characters for the PvP games.

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@"mortrialus.3062" said:Nothing is saving PvP at this point. This isn't a matter of "increase the rewards and people will come"

Look at actually successful PvP games. League of Legends adds new champions every few months, and certainly faster and with

than GW2 has ever released a single balance patch. Same with the Street Fighter games throughout their various iterations. That's what you have to compete with and actually make a mark against.

GW2 basically needs an expansion level, well, expansion. Massively increasing the roster of new specializations. But unlike PoF it can't just throw it out there and then be done with it. And unlike HoT it can't leave literally unkillable specs while it tries to go big. Frankly when WoodenPotatoes was stream casting matches and making PvP videos while mulling over if he should actual make a new "Intro to PvP 2018" series was probably the best time to do so. But that time has passed and you can feel PvP's precipitous decline since then.

Basically GW2 needs a huge update, whether its a new game mode or an expansion's worth of new specs and ArenaNet needs to actually promote it. Like Imagine if Gw2's PvP got a simple trailer like this that hit 400,000 views and showed off gameplay and style the way even something like a small spinoff like this showed off;

Let alone the literally 60,000,000 views other games are able to get to advertise their new characters for the PvP games.

Hahaha yeah I'm aiming a bit lower tbh. My hopes for gw2 are less revolutionary

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@Exedore.6320 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Fun > Prestige > Reward

Imo for incentive to play a game

True. The idea is rewards = more people grind in plat = more match quality = more fun.

Problem is that if it's not fun, you have an influx of players for the rewards who then leave with a sour taste in their mouth and are reluctant to come back.

If you were part of an influx to PvP that went right to plat :tongue:

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Nothing is saving PvP at this point. This isn't a matter of "increase the rewards and people will come"

Look at actually successful PvP games. League of Legends adds new champions every few months, and certainly faster and with
than GW2 has ever released a single balance patch. Same with the Street Fighter games throughout their various iterations. That's what you have to compete with and actually make a mark against.

GW2 basically needs an expansion level, well, expansion. Massively increasing the roster of new specializations. But unlike PoF it can't just throw it out there and then be done with it. And unlike HoT it can't leave literally unkillable specs while it tries to go big. Frankly when WoodenPotatoes was stream casting matches and making PvP videos while mulling over if he should actual make a new "Intro to PvP 2018" series was probably the best time to do so. But that time has passed and you can feel PvP's precipitous decline since then.

Basically GW2 needs a huge update, whether its a new game mode or an expansion's worth of new specs and ArenaNet needs to actually promote it. Like Imagine if Gw2's PvP got a simple trailer like this that hit 400,000 views and showed off gameplay and style the way even something like a small spinoff like this showed off;

Let alone the literally 60,000,000 views other games are able to get to advertise their new characters for the PvP games.

Hahaha yeah I'm aiming a bit lower tbh. My hopes for gw2 are less revolutionary

Is it really revolutionary? Persona 4 had 120,000 unit sales on the Playstation 2, it's original and only platform for years and years. Impressive for a game released on a console long past it's life span. But still, the game was long past it's lifespan and even now the fighting game spin off had FOUR TIMES as many views for its YouTube trailer as the entire game sold on its original platform.

At the end of the day, GW2 withers and dies because the developers LET it wither and die. When the promised Canthan expansion comes out, even if it comes out with amazing cool elite specializations and a PvP meta electric to the touch it will wither and die without publicity. Just like the core game did. Just like HOT did. Just like POF did.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Nothing is saving PvP at this point. This isn't a matter of "increase the rewards and people will come"

Look at actually successful PvP games. League of Legends adds new champions every few months, and certainly faster and with
than GW2 has ever released a single balance patch. Same with the Street Fighter games throughout their various iterations. That's what you have to compete with and actually make a mark against.

GW2 basically needs an expansion level, well, expansion. Massively increasing the roster of new specializations. But unlike PoF it can't just throw it out there and then be done with it. And unlike HoT it can't leave literally unkillable specs while it tries to go big. Frankly when WoodenPotatoes was stream casting matches and making PvP videos while mulling over if he should actual make a new "Intro to PvP 2018" series was probably the best time to do so. But that time has passed and you can feel PvP's precipitous decline since then.

Basically GW2 needs a huge update, whether its a new game mode or an expansion's worth of new specs and ArenaNet needs to actually promote it. Like Imagine if Gw2's PvP got a simple trailer like this that hit 400,000 views and showed off gameplay and style the way even something like a small spinoff like this showed off;

Let alone the literally 60,000,000 views other games are able to get to advertise their new characters for the PvP games.

Hahaha yeah I'm aiming a bit lower tbh. My hopes for gw2 are less revolutionary

Is it really revolutionary? Persona 4 had 120,000 unit sales on the Playstation 2, it's original and only platform for years and years. Impressive for a game released on a console long past it's life span. But still, the game was long past it's lifespan and even now the fighting game spin off had FOUR TIMES as many views for its YouTube trailer as the entire game sold on its original platform.

At the end of the day, GW2 withers and dies because the developers LET it wither and die. When the promised Canthan expansion comes out, even if it comes out with amazing cool elite specializations it will wither and die without publicity. Just like the core game did. Just like HOT did. Just like POF did.

Yeah. I agree with everything you're saying. I just want gw2 to be more match quality to play for fun in ranked, I am sure the Canthan xpac will be marketed well and get many views, it won't translate into PvP population though

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Nothing is saving PvP at this point. This isn't a matter of "increase the rewards and people will come"

Look at actually successful PvP games. League of Legends adds new champions every few months, and certainly faster and with
than GW2 has ever released a single balance patch. Same with the Street Fighter games throughout their various iterations. That's what you have to compete with and actually make a mark against.

GW2 basically needs an expansion level, well, expansion. Massively increasing the roster of new specializations. But unlike PoF it can't just throw it out there and then be done with it. And unlike HoT it can't leave literally unkillable specs while it tries to go big. Frankly when WoodenPotatoes was stream casting matches and making PvP videos while mulling over if he should actual make a new "Intro to PvP 2018" series was probably the best time to do so. But that time has passed and you can feel PvP's precipitous decline since then.

Basically GW2 needs a huge update, whether its a new game mode or an expansion's worth of new specs and ArenaNet needs to actually promote it. Like Imagine if Gw2's PvP got a simple trailer like this that hit 400,000 views and showed off gameplay and style the way even something like a small spinoff like this showed off;

Let alone the literally 60,000,000 views other games are able to get to advertise their new characters for the PvP games.

Hahaha yeah I'm aiming a bit lower tbh. My hopes for gw2 are less revolutionary

Is it really revolutionary? Persona 4 had 120,000 unit sales on the Playstation 2, it's original and only platform for years and years. Impressive for a game released on a console long past it's life span. But still, the game was long past it's lifespan and even now the fighting game spin off had FOUR TIMES as many views for its YouTube trailer as the entire game sold on its original platform.

At the end of the day, GW2 withers and dies because the developers LET it wither and die. When the promised Canthan expansion comes out, even if it comes out with amazing cool elite specializations it will wither and die without publicity. Just like the core game did. Just like HOT did. Just like POF did.

Yeah. I agree with everything you're saying. I just want gw2 to be more match quality to play for fun in ranked, I am sure the Canthan xpac will be marketed well and get many views, it won't translate into PvP population though

It's over for the idea of a general balance or maintenance of the population. There's nowhere to go but down.

The Canthan expansion will bring people into the game

. But if you don't promote and tout the virtues of it it will never last.

Path of Fire could have released a trailer or series of trailers for PvP, advertising the game mode as well as beckoning the people who might be interested like Persona 4 Arena's trailer. And frankly balance wise it was in a better shape to try MLG than most by 2018, and certainly compared to it's HoT shape. I could have made some myself for minimal cost and for sure reach more than 100,000 eyeballs. ArenaNet didn't. Because ArenaNet thinks it is risky and dangerous to do so even though someone like me could make a trailer like with as many views for less than a hundred bucks.

I mean a 2008 PS2 JPRG game with 100,000 units sold manage to pull together a team to advertise their PvP fighting Game Spin off and reach 400,000 views. GW2 can't even do that for it's PvP. And frankly that trailer would cost maybe a couple thousand american dollars if that to produce.

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@"mortrialus.3062" said:It's over for the idea of a general balance or maintenance of the population. There's nowhere to go but down.

The Canthan expansion will bring people into the game

. But if you don't promote and tout the virtues of it it will never last.Path of Fire could have released a trailer or series of trailers for PvP, advertising the game mode as well as beckoning the people who might be interested like Persona 4 Arena's trailer. And frankly balance wise it was in a better shape to try MLG than most by 2018, and certainly compared to it's HoT shape. I could have made some myself for minimal cost and for sure reach more than 100,000 eyeballs. ArenaNet didn't. Because ArenaNet thinks it is risky and dangerous to do so even though someone like me could make a trailer like with as many views for less than a hundred bucks.I mean a 2008 PS2 JPRG game with 100,000 units sold manage to pull together a team to advertise their PvP fighting Game Spin off and reach 400,000 views. GW2 can't even do that for it's PvP. And frankly that trailer would cost maybe a couple thousand american dollars if that to produce.

GW2 is defined by its PvP only a small fraction of a game, so I don't expect ArenaNet's marketing will campaign to draw eyes here, to its PvP section. Especially when GW2's overall health, and expansion popularity, it's doing just fine when they advertise new zones, living story, and PvE systems.

While I agree with your criticism of GW2's PvP marketing effort, they can't just get good and draw a bunch of eyes to GW2 PvP without some new content. There's a content drought since Leagues came out. The expansions don't really expand on PvP outside profession balance. It's just all coming back to the fact that GW2 PvP is only a fraction of a game, and dedicated PvP players here expect the same hype and content as a fully dedicated studio can pump. Just unrealistic.

PvP here has been on maintenance mode, holding steady with only minor fluctuations for several years now. We're holding at a spot where the population is a bit too low though. Trying to be objective here, it's really been the same for several years, but dedicated players like us want to be supported instead so it feels very unsatisfactory.

Players have extremely different definitions of 'saving PvP'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not misrepresenting you to say that in your definition of saving PvP, it means an offering like an expansion worth of new specs, or a new main PvP mode other than conquest, and also advertise it very successfully.

Considering GW2 PvP purposefully isn't the fraction of this game ArenaNet advertises, and the fact that there are not resources or the passion in ArenaNet (IMO) to successfully create a better game mode than conquest, it would absolutely require a complete revolution in ArenaNet to get those things going. Like, everything would have to change internally to get these things.

In reality, from my perspective, all PvP needs to be 'saved' is a few hundred more knowledgeable people playing per region. Then, with better match quality I would consider GW2 PvP to be good enough at what it is supposed to be: a casual solo/duo queue session, with optional AT's.

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What I think about it :1.) Gw 2 is a very casual game so many won't aim to become Platinum instead they just try to do their dailies in pvp up to max 3-5 tries. This is the majority of the pvp players in Gw2.2.) I believe the numbers have also reduced to the changes to the system with the 2 vs 2 because first it is a lot less casual so players stopped all together to play ranked.3.) Certainly there are stuff which players stopped altogether to play pvp any more with the constant nerfs of build and all the other changes.

This is just human natur

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Anet needs to promote pvp. they simply do not promote it. other games are just pvp so all that is required is to promote the game. this game has 3 game modes. pve, wvw and pvp. they promote pve. they dont promote pvp. in game or otherwise. relocate all the features of the mists to lions arch so players get more exposure to pvp. let them browse the rewards from the vendors, which may peak some interest. desegregate the community, its become an exclusive (in a negative way) part of the game. make it more inclusive by giving pvp some promotion in rest of the living world. weve got a raid and fractal portal in LA, but nothing for pvp. you more or less leave the rest of game and move to this exclusive server with other players doing just pvp, called the mists. this reduces overall exposure of the pvp system.

until the population of pvp grows, youll never get an increase in the higher ranks.

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i don't think they will just adjust the thing for 1 server ...accept the ping and move to a better server

east cost people pings aren't even bad around 120 ish

in EU you can get decent high plat games from like Lunch to 9-10pm.

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Or you could just cull the bloat from GW2 so people aren't drowning in options that are just not viable. You could also make a game that isn't a mismatched mess of free-aim and tab-target combat with effectively zero emphasis on manual movement. The only thing that reward baiting does is drive participation for a hot second before people gather what they want and leave or burn out (see every PvE-focused patch drop and how many "end-game" PvE zones are just utterly dead nowadays). You could also cite how people are still crying about PvP participation despite NOT JUST A MONTH OR SO AGO, PvP was up to its ears in randoms queuing solely for a legendary trinket; not only did people complain about "tourists" during the influx, but the place is super dead again. Rewards don't work if the gameplay isn't good.

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@"Swagg.9236" said:Or you could just cull the bloat from GW2 so people aren't drowning in options that are just not viable. You could also make a game that isn't a mismatched mess of free-aim and tab-target combat with effectively zero emphasis on manual movement. The only thing that reward baiting does is drive participation for a hot second before people gather what they want and leave or burn out (see every PvE-focused patch drop and how many "end-game" PvE zones are just utterly dead nowadays). You could also cite how people are still crying about PvP participation despite NOT JUST A MONTH OR SO AGO, PvP was up to its ears in randoms queuing solely for a legendary trinket; not only did people complain about "tourists" during the influx, but the place is super dead again. Rewards don't work if the gameplay isn't good.

That could be like 4 different threads. Also I think good gameplay is incredibly subjective. I feel like most who plays GW2 thinks the mechanics of it is good, or is it just for the amazing ranked queue system that keeps people playing? Kappa

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I think a good place to start in bringing more people to plat would be increasing viable build diversity leading up to the higher levels of game play, if you want more skilled players playing the game mode they first need to get invested into the game mode and giving huge amounts of options that are just as shit early on as they are in the end game isnt exactly a good way to get people invested and more rewards dosent make people invested it just turns it into another grind just with the added benefit of dealing with the saltiness of pvp

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