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how you buff core ele without making other specs op?


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I've been thinking about that and i can't get an answer, I think dagger and scepter could have a water field but them you'd bust weaver and tempest so much

i feel the dmg/sustain balance in core ele is the issue, you push one of those a little bit you lose alot the other side

maybe extra buffs on arcane based on how many elements you get, so you'd get some value picking 2 elements compared to 1 element arcane and another spec

dunno, it's just hard

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Only way to do this is to take from e-spec and give to core - this brings down the power level of e-spec and directly buffs core traitlines. Making core traits more attractive requires more hard choices, not being able to cherry pick with both hands.

For example:

  • Putting Master's Fortitude (modified of course) into Water line. This would lower the defence of offensive fire Weaver, and buff the defense of water Weaver. Core would be buffed no matter what.
  • Putting Invigorating Torrents into Arcane. Water Support Tempest would lose some cleanse, having to take Fire line to make up for it and thereby becoming squishier. Core would be buffed no matter what.

Doing this would also create alot stronger synergy between core lines and elite specs, instead of all the goodies being shoved into the e-spec line.

Of course optimally we want all elite specs to revolve around it's own central mechanic (Holosmith is a great example, hard choices in every tier), however this is a design philosophy that appeared recently and the recent traitline reworks attest to that - which is good!

But most likely this pass won't be made over all released e-specs, so until then the approach of creating stronger synergies between them and core seems the best alternative. Them using 5-minute cooldown placeholders for passive skills sure seems like a great opportunity.

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Improve synergies between core traitlines. Maybe make up some combos that need 3 core traitlines to be picked. It needs an extensive rework(although most of it could be just shuffling trait effects around), but it could be done.

Or as others said, just nerf the elite spec traitlines.

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@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:Buff cantrips through trait lines

This would buff Core but also Elite specs as well, which the whole point of the thread is to buff Core but not Elite specs, there are already buffs to cantrips through traits on water traitline so wouldn't make sense to add more to other traitlines

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Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

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@Kulvar.1239 said:Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

This for sure. Core traits need to be buffed. Not just buffs that help the element, but buffs that create a certain way of fighting: survival, cc, heals, support, etc. If these buffs change elites, then the Elites will need subsequent nerfs.

Either that, or give core an additional mechanic that neither elites have.

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@Stallic.2397 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

This for sure. Core traits need to be buffed. Not just buffs that help the element, but buffs that create a certain way of fighting: survival, cc, heals, support, etc. If these buffs change elites, then the Elites will need subsequent nerfs.

Either that, or give core an additional mechanic that neither elites have.

That would help too.

Tempest has Overloads.Weaver has Dual Attacks.Core has nothing.

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@"Kulvar.1239" said:Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

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@Swagg.9236 said:

@"Kulvar.1239" said:Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

I meant support as in : giving useful boons like Fury, Swiftness, Regeneration, Protection, Vigor.

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@Swagg.9236 said:

@"Kulvar.1239" said:Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

Core Ele in 2012 was described as a powerful mage that deals incredible damage. That was it's identity. Even if Weaver is the new damage dealer, it shouldn't replace Core. Given that Core Ele is a more simple rotation Spec, Weaver should be about powerful dual skills at the cost of heavy rotation. Weaver is also a melee spec, so it can focus on more survivability through evades and barrier. But Core should still be a damage dealing spec that keeps pace with weaver.

Tempest is support through auras by sharing auras and heals. So buffing core wouldn't replace Tempest or out match FB and druid since Aura share is lacking on Core. If you keep those three identities in mind (Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier), then buffing core doesn't seem so complicated.

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@Stallic.2397 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

This for sure. Core traits need to be buffed. Not just buffs that help the element, but buffs that create a certain way of fighting: survival, cc, heals, support, etc. If these buffs change elites, then the Elites will need subsequent nerfs.

Either that, or give core an additional mechanic that neither elites have.

they could also give an extra buff when you attune to an element based on the other elements you have equipped, arcane and elites give you no buffs, so elite automatically loses 1 buff, potencially 2 if they run arcane

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@Stallic.2397 said:

@"Kulvar.1239" said:Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

Core Ele in 2012 was described as a powerful mage that deals incredible damage. That was it's identity. Even if Weaver is the new damage dealer, it shouldn't replace Core. Given that Core Ele is a more simple rotation Spec, Weaver should be about powerful dual skills at the cost of heavy rotation. Weaver is also a melee spec, so it can focus on more survivability through evades and barrier. But Core should still be a damage dealing spec that keeps pace with weaver.

Tempest is support through auras by sharing auras and heals. So buffing core wouldn't replace Tempest or out match FB and druid since Aura share is lacking on Core. If you keep those three identities in mind (Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier), then buffing core doesn't seem so complicated.

but that's note the case, the faster attunement and the presence of water fields in sword and dagger make it more tanky you still have barriers ant traits that push your survival abilities even further, so you can go all in for dmg and still have better survivability than core

same happens to tempest through overloads and traits being both better than core deffensive and agressive

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@Khalisto.5780 said:

@"Kulvar.1239" said:Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

Core Ele in 2012 was described as a powerful mage that deals incredible damage. That was it's identity. Even if Weaver is the new damage dealer, it shouldn't replace Core. Given that Core Ele is a more simple rotation Spec, Weaver should be about powerful dual skills at the cost of heavy rotation. Weaver is also a melee spec, so it can focus on more survivability through evades and barrier. But Core should still be a damage dealing spec that keeps pace with weaver.

Tempest is support through auras by sharing auras and heals. So buffing core wouldn't replace Tempest or out match FB and druid since Aura share is lacking on Core. If you keep those three identities in mind (Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier), then buffing core doesn't seem so complicated.

but that's note the case, the faster attunement and the presence of water fields in sword and dagger make it more tanky you still have barriers ant traits that push your survival abilities even further, so you can go all in for dmg and still have better survivability than core

same happens to tempest through overloads and traits being both better than core deffensive and agressive

Anet nerfed Core DD Ele and ever since then, Elites were bound to make up for those nerfs. Which made elites better and opposite to the side-grades they were supposed to be. Which is ironic, cause Core DD Ele would be an average build in today's meta.

I wouldn't say revert all nerfs in the past so many years, but Anet shouldn't be so panicky of a possible Core DD resurgence.

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@Stallic.2397 said:

@"Kulvar.1239" said:Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

Core Ele in 2012 was described as a powerful mage that deals incredible damage. That was it's identity. Even if Weaver is the new damage dealer, it shouldn't replace Core. Given that Core Ele is a more simple rotation Spec, Weaver should be about powerful dual skills at the cost of heavy rotation. Weaver is also a melee spec, so it can focus on more survivability through evades and barrier. But Core should still be a damage dealing spec that keeps pace with weaver.

Tempest is support through auras by sharing auras and heals. So buffing core wouldn't replace Tempest or out match FB and druid since Aura share is lacking on Core. If you keep those three identities in mind (Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier), then buffing core doesn't seem so complicated.

but that's note the case, the faster attunement and the presence of water fields in sword and dagger make it more tanky you still have barriers ant traits that push your survival abilities even further, so you can go all in for dmg and still have better survivability than core

same happens to tempest through overloads and traits being both better than core deffensive and agressive

Anet nerfed Core DD Ele and ever since then, Elites were bound to make up for those nerfs. Which made elites better and opposite to the side-grades they were supposed to be. Which is ironic, cause Core DD Ele would be an average build in today's meta.

I wouldn't say revert all nerfs in the past so many years, but Anet shouldn't be so panicky of a possible Core DD resurgence.

dagger offhand is so bad right now, but again buffing it would auto buff the elites

I've been trying some core ele builds survivability is always a problem, i still have to try the full defensive build with earth/water/fire, but tempest will still be better I think

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The problem is multiple things. The first being core traitlines have too much focus on buffing one attunement while elite specs tend to buff all aspects of the profession.

The second problem is tempest is a better support and weaver is a better dps. Core ele is argueably a worse dps than tempest and worse at tanking than weaver as well.

Core ele is great at being average at everything but trying to spec for damage makes you below average at staying alive and specing tank makes you bad at dps.

Air attunement needs adjustments that dont rely on being in air and earth attunement needs a straight overhaul.

Also the damage of some skills is really bad now. Offhand dagger is like the bread and butter of core ele but look how they hurt our boi

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