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how you buff core ele without making other specs op?


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@Stallic.2397 said:

@"Kulvar.1239" said:Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

Core Ele in 2012 was described as a powerful mage that deals incredible damage. That was it's identity. Even if Weaver is the new damage dealer, it shouldn't replace Core.

But it did.

Given that Core Ele is a more simple rotation Spec, Weaver should be about powerful dual skills at the cost of heavy rotation.

Except that a "heavy rotation" isn't really a burden in GW2 since this game's rotations generally have buffer bits in them which insulate risk for the user. Weaver sacrifices nothing and gains the only thing that there is to gain in GW2: more damage.

Weaver is also a melee spec, so it can focus on more survivability through evades and barrier. But Core should still be a damage dealing spec that keeps pace with weaver.

That's the problem: there is no difference between melee weaver and core staff ele because the range that a staff ele puts between itself and an enemy serves the exact same purpose as the weaver's passive damage negation via evades and barrier (in fact, the evasion is much better than distance because everybody uses teleports and stability). You're making two of the exact same builds. So, naturally, one is going to just be better than the other. That's bloat, and no amount of buffs or nerfs is going to address that bloat: you will always end up with "the worse build" at some point, languishing in irrelevance.

Tempest is support through auras by sharing auras and heals. So buffing core wouldn't replace Tempest or out match FB and druid since Aura share is lacking on Core.

Healing is healing is healing. It doesn't matter if you heal via aura share or not; the only thing that matters are numbers. If you buff core to fill a "support" role that somehow makes it viable alongside things like FB and Druid, then Tempest would be worthless since it still wouldn't outpace FB or Druid, and core ele would just be better at making people not die.

If you keep those three identities in mind (Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier), then buffing core doesn't seem so complicated.

Just as I said before, the issue here isn't so much trying to elevate core ele to a "viable" level; it's the fact that "Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier" are, in truth, just "Damage/Healing/Damage." GW2 isn't a game that's deep enough to have nine classes each with three respective build types. Given any particular class in GW2, you can't do that much which is different than any other build. Everything just starts crashing into itself and vying for competition based solely on DPS breakdowns or how little risk is involved in just running toward enemies and pressing buttons. You can't address the core issue of this game--bloat--without culling and re-working things. Stat increases and passive triggers are only going to create powercreep or viability deficiencies within the context of what already exists in-game.

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@Swagg.9236 said:

@"Kulvar.1239" said:Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

Core Ele in 2012 was described as a powerful mage that deals incredible damage. That was it's identity. Even if Weaver is the new damage dealer, it shouldn't replace Core.

But it did.

Given that Core Ele is a more simple rotation Spec, Weaver should be about powerful dual skills at the cost of heavy rotation.

Except that a "heavy rotation" isn't really a burden in GW2 since this game's rotations generally have buffer bits in them which insulate risk for the user. Weaver sacrifices nothing and gains the only thing that there is to gain in GW2: more damage.

Weaver is also a melee spec, so it can focus on more survivability through evades and barrier. But Core should still be a damage dealing spec that keeps pace with weaver.

That's the problem: there is no difference between melee weaver and core staff ele because the range that a staff ele puts between itself and an enemy serves the exact same purpose as the weaver's passive damage negation via evades and barrier (in fact, the evasion is much better than distance because everybody uses teleports and stability). You're making two of the
exact same builds
. So, naturally, one is going to just be better than the other. That's bloat, and no amount of buffs or nerfs is going to address that bloat: you will always end up with "the worse build" at some point, languishing in irrelevance.

Tempest is support through auras by sharing auras and heals. So buffing core wouldn't replace Tempest or out match FB and druid since Aura share is lacking on Core.

Healing is healing is healing. It doesn't matter if you heal via aura share or not; the only thing that matters are numbers. If you buff core to fill a "support" role that somehow makes it viable alongside things like FB and Druid, then Tempest would be worthless since it still wouldn't outpace FB or Druid, and core ele would just be better at making people not die.

If you keep those three identities in mind (Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier), then buffing core doesn't seem so complicated.

Just as I said before, the issue here isn't so much trying to elevate core ele to a "viable" level; it's the fact that
"Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier"
are, in truth, just
"Damage/Healing/Damage."
GW2 isn't a game that's deep enough to have nine classes each with three respective build types. Given any particular class in GW2, you can't do that much which is different than any other build. Everything just starts crashing into itself and vying for competition based solely on DPS breakdowns or how little risk is involved in just running toward enemies and pressing buttons. You can't address the core issue of this game--bloat--without culling and re-working things. Stat increases and passive triggers are only going to create powercreep or viability deficiencies within the context of what already exists in-game.

that's what I said, both tempest and weaver have better deffensive capabilities from whatever source, which allows them to get better offensive options

weaver has a trait that gives you basically 5k hp, water fields and barriertempest also has deffensive options in his trait line and water and earth overload to make you more tanky

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@Khalisto.5780 said:

@"Kulvar.1239" said:Make Fire/Air/Water good at Power DPS.Make Fire/Earth/Arcane good at Condi DPS.Make Air good at CC, Water good at Healing, Earth good at Survivability, Arcane good at Support.When you have that, taking an elite means losing a good traitline as trade-off.

Those are the only mechanics in the game which remotely matter on a macro scale. Condi and Power are both just untyped damage anyway; people are going to always just take one and not the other based on numerical readouts and passive survivability. "Support" is such a throwaway term nowadays, and it won't have any impact on anything unless you just duplicate FB or Druid healing output. Most importantly, this will accomplish nothing considering you are still going to have to, through almost nothing but PASSIVE PROCS AND STAT INCREASES, out-compete the power of just having extra buttons on your skill bar with zero real downside (which is what elite specs are).

Core Ele in 2012 was described as a powerful mage that deals incredible damage. That was it's identity. Even if Weaver is the new damage dealer, it shouldn't replace Core.

But it did.

Given that Core Ele is a more simple rotation Spec, Weaver should be about powerful dual skills at the cost of heavy rotation.

Except that a "heavy rotation" isn't really a burden in GW2 since this game's rotations generally have buffer bits in them which insulate risk for the user. Weaver sacrifices nothing and gains the only thing that there is to gain in GW2: more damage.

Weaver is also a melee spec, so it can focus on more survivability through evades and barrier. But Core should still be a damage dealing spec that keeps pace with weaver.

That's the problem: there is no difference between melee weaver and core staff ele because the range that a staff ele puts between itself and an enemy serves the exact same purpose as the weaver's passive damage negation via evades and barrier (in fact, the evasion is much better than distance because everybody uses teleports and stability). You're making two of the
exact same builds
. So, naturally, one is going to just be better than the other. That's bloat, and no amount of buffs or nerfs is going to address that bloat: you will always end up with "the worse build" at some point, languishing in irrelevance.

Tempest is support through auras by sharing auras and heals. So buffing core wouldn't replace Tempest or out match FB and druid since Aura share is lacking on Core.

Healing is healing is healing. It doesn't matter if you heal via aura share or not; the only thing that matters are numbers. If you buff core to fill a "support" role that somehow makes it viable alongside things like FB and Druid, then Tempest would be worthless since it still wouldn't outpace FB or Druid, and core ele would just be better at making people not die.

If you keep those three identities in mind (Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier), then buffing core doesn't seem so complicated.

Just as I said before, the issue here isn't so much trying to elevate core ele to a "viable" level; it's the fact that
"Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier"
are, in truth, just
"Damage/Healing/Damage."
GW2 isn't a game that's deep enough to have nine classes each with three respective build types. Given any particular class in GW2, you can't do that much which is different than any other build. Everything just starts crashing into itself and vying for competition based solely on DPS breakdowns or how little risk is involved in just running toward enemies and pressing buttons. You can't address the core issue of this game--bloat--without culling and re-working things. Stat increases and passive triggers are only going to create powercreep or viability deficiencies within the context of what already exists in-game.

that's what I said, both tempest and weaver have better deffensive capabilities from whatever source, which allows them to get better offensive options

weaver has a trait that gives you basically 5k hp, water fields and barriertempest also has deffensive options in his trait line and water and earth overload to make you more tanky

Yeah, and I agree. I was just trying to tell it to this guy. You can't just "keep GW2 design paradigms" in mind because GW2 has such a shallow, bloated design. The only way that you're going to get core ele to compete with weaver or tempest is to just passively buff it to have bigger numbers despite pressing the same buttons as always. That's only going to create more bloat.

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@Kulvar.1239 said:

@Khalisto.5780 said:they could transfer the buffs from elemental lockdown to the minor adept traits and get the trait better buffs, since you have to land a cc to get them, something like stab on earth the other ones are actually ok i think

Or remove the need for CC so you get more build freedom

that was changed in the big patch, cuz ele was farting boons, the old one you got a boon everytime you were struck based on your attunement, so they changed to not be passive, but the boons were not updated to make up for how hard is to get them, i think they could add 5 secs duration to fire, air and water boons and give you stab 4 secs since the one is hard to get if you're not running staff.

and then add boons to your minor adepts when you get hit, only if you have that element traitline equipped

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@"Swagg.9236" said:That's the problem: there is no difference between melee weaver and core staff ele because the range that a staff ele puts between itself and an enemy serves the exact same purpose as the weaver's passive damage negation via evades and barrier (in fact, the evasion is much better than distance because everybody uses teleports and stability). You're making two of the exact same builds. So, naturally, one is going to just be better than the other. That's bloat, and no amount of buffs or nerfs is going to address that bloat: you will always end up with "the worse build" at some point, languishing in irrelevance.

Healing is healing is healing. It doesn't matter if you heal via aura share or not; the only thing that matters are numbers. If you buff core to fill a "support" role that somehow makes it viable alongside things like FB and Druid, then Tempest would be worthless since it still wouldn't outpace FB or Druid, and core ele would just be better at making people not die.

Just as I said before, the issue here isn't so much trying to elevate core ele to a "viable" level; it's the fact that "Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier" are, in truth, just "Damage/Healing/Damage." GW2 isn't a game that's deep enough to have nine classes each with three respective build types. Given any particular class in GW2, you can't do that much which is different than any other build. Everything just starts crashing into itself and vying for competition based solely on DPS breakdowns or how little risk is involved in just running toward enemies and pressing buttons. You can't address the core issue of this game--bloat--without culling and re-working things. Stat increases and passive triggers are only going to create powercreep or viability deficiencies within the context of what already exists in-game.

I agree with the first point. Ele's Elites are better than core. But you assume that it's IMPOSSIBLE to change that which I just think is a lack of creativity.

As for the second part. Support and healing are not the same thing. Take a look at FB and Tempest in their current viability. Tempest has better raw healing while FB has more support through boons. Tempest's design are about sharing auras. That's the support they provide. Tempest doesn't have to be a healing traitline. If you combine Tempest with Water. Then you have aura share and heals. Easy way to make these changes are swapping Powerful Aura and Elemental Bastion. Swapping those two traits buffs core and nerfs Tempest.

Damage/Aura Share/ Melee & Barrier is not just Damage/Healing/Damage. Everything after that statement is a broad assumption. If Core Ele is focused on Damage for the most part, and Adequate healing/damage reduction in water/earth, then you can focus the elites on their raw design. Tempests can focus solely on share auras, shouts, and overloads, while weaver focuses more on dual skills/barrier/and even evades. A trait like Flow like Water, should really be in Weaver

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@Stallic.2397 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:That's the problem: there is no difference between melee weaver and core staff ele because the range that a staff ele puts between itself and an enemy serves the exact same purpose as the weaver's passive damage negation via evades and barrier (in fact, the evasion is much better than distance because everybody uses teleports and stability). You're making two of the
exact same builds
. So, naturally, one is going to just be better than the other. That's bloat, and no amount of buffs or nerfs is going to address that bloat: you will always end up with "the worse build" at some point, languishing in irrelevance.

Healing is healing is healing. It doesn't matter if you heal via aura share or not; the only thing that matters are numbers. If you buff core to fill a "support" role that somehow makes it viable alongside things like FB and Druid, then Tempest would be worthless since it still wouldn't outpace FB or Druid, and core ele would just be better at making people not die.

Just as I said before, the issue here isn't so much trying to elevate core ele to a "viable" level; it's the fact that
"Damage/Aura Share/Melee & Barrier"
are, in truth, just
"Damage/Healing/Damage."
GW2 isn't a game that's deep enough to have nine classes each with three respective build types. Given any particular class in GW2, you can't do that much which is different than any other build. Everything just starts crashing into itself and vying for competition based solely on DPS breakdowns or how little risk is involved in just running toward enemies and pressing buttons. You can't address the core issue of this game--bloat--without culling and re-working things. Stat increases and passive triggers are only going to create powercreep or viability deficiencies within the context of what already exists in-game.

I agree with the first point. Ele's Elites are better than core. But you assume that it's IMPOSSIBLE to change that which I just think is a lack of creativity.

As for the second part. Support and healing are not the same thing. Take a look at FB and Tempest in their current viability. Tempest has better raw healing while FB has more support through boons. Tempest's design are about sharing auras. That's the support they provide. Tempest doesn't have to be a healing traitline. If you combine Tempest with Water. Then you have aura share and heals. Easy way to make these changes are swapping Powerful Aura and Elemental Bastion. Swapping those two traits buffs core and nerfs Tempest.

Damage/Aura Share/ Melee & Barrier is not just Damage/Healing/Damage. Everything after that statement is a broad assumption. If Core Ele is focused on Damage for the most part, and Adequate healing/damage reduction in water/earth, then you can focus the elites on their raw design. Tempests can focus solely on share auras, shouts, and overloads, while weaver focuses more on dual skills/barrier/and even evades. A trait like Flow like Water, should really be in Weaver

It's certainly not a lack of creativity. It's a matter of whether or not you want to go through with a transformation that would effectively make GW2 into a different game by the end of it. The moment that players manually move with raptor mount leaps and rollerbeetle boosts while trying to joust each other in mid air with melee-range attack skills is the moment that GW2 becomes cool enough play. Chaining springer jumps and jackal teleports through the sky before skyscale clinging to walls and griffon sweeping back toward a point in order to throw down some AoE damage is what you want when it comes to manual movement.

This game has cool movements and abilities in it; they just can't be used by players in PvP, and that's what holds it back.

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