important questions about the races (/s)

[Dustfinger.9510]

Interestingly, insectivore teeth work well for both exoskeletons and plants that need to be ripped off structures as we see in marine iguanas that feed primarily on seaweed and algae. Without the existence or canines for a "kill bite", Asura are eligible, early on, to have fed primariliy on either exoskeleton creatures, deep cave plants, or both in any proportion.

[Dustfinger.9510]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:so what? There is a pic of the handywork of a notorious american killer. The person who found the body at first thought it was a deer or pig.

Pigs have skin similar to humans but Lucks comparison to skinned bears may have been to point out that a Norns looking like human, may be just a Norn looking like a shaved bear. That is, of course, if they meant "shaved" instead of "skinned".

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Dustfinger.9510" said:Hmmm... Would this make Thruln and his ilk also bears?

Probably not. While Thrulnn does say they were cousins to norn, we cannot be certain the accuracy of his oral tradition history since there's already a couple points of contention and contradiction with what he says about the jotun's fall.

Jotun are confirmed by word-of-god to be cousins to ogres, but that's all we know. They're called "lesser giants", and the norn are even shorter so it's hard to consider norn to be... "lesser, lesser giants" I guess?

@"hugo.4705" said:Based on the shapes of their teeth, Asura are carnivorous. But they also eat fruits occasionally. So maybe, only maybe, Omnivorous.Back in the old day when they were underground, they either were eating cavernous species (Grubs, Spiders, Bats, Beetles.....) or plants in those caverns (Mosses, Vines...) or Mushrooms (fungi, btw not plant).

It was established that the teeth developed that way because underground fungi that was the asura's main food were very tough to eat. They would be either herbivore or omnivore despite their teeth (the way the food system works implies all five playable races are omnivores - even charr, who are established as enjoying certain fruits and vegetables, like strawberries).

But the process of evolution is long... during million of years... if we take us as example, asura may be 2000 years old but who know. The only thing we have from the timelines, if that in 1078 Asura appear on the surface, we are in 1333 AE so they are at least 245 years old. In 100 BE, humans establish Ascalon, but who knows, maybe Asura were already there, hiding so in that case 1433 years old.

While pre-GW1 lore on asura and norn is pretty much non-existent, there are three pieces of lore known for asura during that lengthy period:

1) In 1 BE, the asura noticed a rise and decrease in magic, but were unaware of the change's origins.2) "Centuries" before GW1, the asura were on the surface (the extent of such is unclear); during this time, they established Rata Pten.3) The asura had established contact and trade with both norn and dwarves a lengthy enough time before EotN to have good relations and knowledge of each other.

We don't have an exact timeframe for Rata Pten, but in-game, it's established to be pre-Cataclysm and in the EotN manual you have this statement: "It has been centuries since Asura were seen aboveground. In fact, until recently, many humans thought they were a myth. However, recent reports have confirmed their existence."

Fun fact: the Tarnished Coast ruins are the exact same design as Rata Pten and the Central Transfer Chamber, implying that the "unknown ruins" that the asura settled in... were asuran. But what this interestingly confirms is that the asura were not always subterranean - at least in part - even before the Great Destroyer rose.

I will take Ancient Egypt and Roman Empire to explain. -3150 before JC and -27 before JC. That two periods show an increase of architecture and arts but also complex military. It's a period of 3130 years.

This probably isn't the most ideal comparison. When the Bronze Age collapsed (circa 1200 BCE), this effectively reset mediterranean society advancement and forced many civilizations to start from the proverbial scratch.

[Dustfinger.9510]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Dustfinger.9510" said:Hmmm... Would this make Thruln and his ilk also bears?

Probably not. While Thrulnn does say they were cousins to norn, we cannot be certain the accuracy of his oral tradition history since there's already a couple points of contention and contradiction with what he says about the jotun's fall.

Jotun are confirmed by word-of-god to be cousins to ogres, but that's all we know. They're called "lesser giants", and the norn are even shorter so it's hard to consider norn to be... "lesser, lesser giants" I guess?

Hmm. The deniability of the oral traditions is definately plausible. Though, I'd hesitate to consider Norn as lesser than lesser giants just becasue they are shorter than Jotun. Norn may just be the smaller end of the lesser giants with Jotun in the middle and Ogres at the larger end.

With the reliance on oral traditions to even make a connection between Kodan > Norn and Norn and Jotunn, it seems A-net left their options open. Norn, Jotun, Ogres, Kodan may all be related or none at all or any mix in between.

[Teratus.2859]

@Dustfinger.9510 said:Hmm. The deniability of the oral traditions is definately plausible. Though, I'd hesitate to consider Norn as lesser than lesser giants just becasue they are shorter than Jotun. Norn may just be the smaller end of the lesser giants with Jotun in the middle and Ogres at the larger end.

With the reliance on oral traditions to even make a connection between Kodan > Norn and Norn and Jotunn, it seems A-net left their options open. Norn, Jotun, Ogres, Kodan may all be related or none at all or any mix in between.

In Gw1 Ogres were in fact a creature type rather than an individual race like they are in Gw2..Jotun, Yeti's and Ettins were all classed as Ogres back then as well as defined as lesser giants distantly related to Giganticus Lupicus.

It's kinda funny that in Gw2 Ogres are considered not only an ancient race now.. but one of thee most ancient of races still alive on Tyria XD

Another fun fact is that the names Jotun and Ettin are essentially the same thing as they originate from the same Norse word for Giant, In old Norse that would be jǫtunn, which the jǫ is pronounced kinda like a Y or Eo which is where Eoten came from in old English which today is now Ettin.So despite being two different races in many fantasy games etc they're actually the same thing :)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Dustfinger.9510 said:Hmm. The deniability of the oral traditions is definately plausible. Though, I'd hesitate to consider Norn as lesser than lesser giants just becasue they are shorter than Jotun. Norn may just be the smaller end of the lesser giants with Jotun in the middle and Ogres at the larger end.

With the reliance on oral traditions to even make a connection between Kodan > Norn and Norn and Jotunn, it seems A-net left their options open. Norn, Jotun, Ogres, Kodan may all be related or none at all or any mix in between.

I'd be very hesitant to consider kodan and jotun/ogres to be related. There's not really any relation between the groups at all, either physically or culturally.

[Dustfinger.9510]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Dustfinger.9510 said:Hmm. The deniability of the oral traditions is definately plausible. Though, I'd hesitate to consider Norn as lesser than lesser giants just becasue they are shorter than Jotun. Norn may just be the smaller end of the lesser giants with Jotun in the middle and Ogres at the larger end.

With the reliance on oral traditions to even make a connection between Kodan > Norn and Norn and Jotunn, it seems A-net left their options open. Norn, Jotun, Ogres, Kodan may all be related or none at all or any mix in between.

In Gw1 Ogres were in fact a creature type rather than an individual race like they are in Gw2..Jotun, Yeti's and Ettins were all classed as Ogres back then as well as defined as lesser giants distantly related to Giganticus Lupicus.

It's kinda funny that in Gw2 Ogres are considered not only an ancient race now.. but one of thee most ancient of races still alive on Tyria XD

Another fun fact is that the names Jotun and Ettin are essentially the same thing as they originate from the same Norse word for Giant, In old Norse that would be jǫtunn, which the jǫ is pronounced kinda like a Y or Eo which is where Eoten came from in old English which today is now Ettin.So despite being two different races in many fantasy games etc they're actually the same thing :)

That's pretty interesting. I was (unpleasantly) surprised when I learned a similar situation to goblins and orcs in Tolkiens universe. But, by that time, distinctions had already been broadly made in other media.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dustfinger.9510 said:Hmm. The deniability of the oral traditions is definately plausible. Though, I'd hesitate to consider Norn as lesser than lesser giants just becasue they are shorter than Jotun. Norn may just be the smaller end of the lesser giants with Jotun in the middle and Ogres at the larger end.

With the reliance on oral traditions to even make a connection between Kodan > Norn and Norn and Jotunn, it seems A-net left their options open. Norn, Jotun, Ogres, Kodan may all be related or none at all or any mix in between.

I'd be very hesitant to consider kodan and jotun/ogres to be related. There's not really any relation between the groups at all, either physically or culturally.

Agreed. I'm hestitant to consider any to be related without confirmation or at least a-net leaning more heavily into the fallible evidence. But, tbf: Jotun have about as much in common with Kodan as Norn do. The same evidence of fallible in universe, one sided oral traditionsupports both theories. That oral tradition is either basically correct or incorrect.

[Gundahar.2765]

@Dustfinger.9510 said:

Agreed. I'm hestitant to consider any to be related without confirmation or at least a-net leaning more heavily into the fallible evidence. But, tbf: Jotun have about as much in common with Kodan as Norn do. The same evidence of fallible in universe, one sided oral traditionsupports both theories. That oral tradition is either basically correct or incorrect.

In norse mythology, jotunn are reffered to higher beings (not spirits) aswell, due to Odin himself being a descendant from jotnars.Norns were actually female dieties that ruled destiny of men, much like all other pagan cultures had theirs. It was also a north germanic dialect that we know little of, since it dissapeared rather quickly.I don't know about kodan and where the devs had the inspiration from, all I know is kodan was a style of literature, and the connection I made is this: kodan is japannese, japan has a thing for bears, can't put a panda (WoW has it already) in the norse mythology so its going to be a polar. Connections :)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Dustfinger.9510 said:Agreed. I'm hestitant to consider any to be related without confirmation or at least a-net leaning more heavily into the fallible evidence. But, tbf: Jotun have about as much in common with Kodan as Norn do. The same evidence of fallible in universe, one sided oral traditionsupports both theories. That oral tradition is either basically correct or incorrect.

Well, even ignoring the obvious bear form, norn and kodan have very similar beliefs (which is even noted and used as a lead-in for kodan to tell players about the belief of the Southward Claw being the progenator of norn). The fact both norn and kodan have cultural and religious views of the same exact spirits, when all other races don't, is fairly telling.

Similarly, both ogres and jotun have a distinct lack of religious beliefs - both are as atheistic as you can get in the setting without going full on antitheist like the charr do.

@Gundahar.2765 said:In norse mythology, jotunn are reffered to higher beings (not spirits) aswell, due to Odin himself being a descendant from jotnars.Norns were actually female dieties that ruled destiny of men, much like all other pagan cultures had theirs. It was also a north germanic dialect that we know little of, since it dissapeared rather quickly.I don't know about kodan and where the devs had the inspiration from, all I know is kodan was a style of literature, and the connection I made is this: kodan is japannese, japan has a thing for bears, can't put a panda (WoW has it already) in the norse mythology so its going to be a polar. Connections :)

IIRC, the kodan were born out of random concept art of a polar norn bear form by Kekai Kotaki and random iceberg ship concept art by Daniel Dociu. They don't hold any mythological inspiration.

And while the names for jotun and norn originate from norse, beyond naming conventions and a couple aesthetics, there's nothing else relating to nordic folklore - norn culture is comparatively closer to Native American, particularly the Spirits of the Wild (hence the Boneskinner which was inspired by the Wendigo).

[Gundahar.2765]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

IIRC, the kodan were born out of random concept art of a polar norn bear form by Kekai Kotaki and random iceberg ship concept art by Daniel Dociu. They don't hold any mythological inspiration.

And while the names for jotun and norn originate from norse, beyond naming conventions and a couple aesthetics, there's nothing else relating to nordic folklore - norn culture is comparatively closer to Native American, particularly the Spirits of the Wild (hence the Boneskinner which was inspired by the Wendigo).

Actually, in norse folklore there is a nieche of shamanism that ties to spirits animals, or spirits of the wild if you wish. They are called fylgja and they are guiding/guardian spirits that protect or embody the person giving him the perks or wisdom of that said animal. Stags, bears, wolves and raven were often the fylgjur. Sometimes these spirits can be human, either a diety or a dís, a female spirit that brings bad or good fortune to a person. The dísir, valkyries, norns are multi-referenced on the same matter, depends on the belief of every norse tribe and land.So, totemism is not a stranger to the norse, its been in almost every old culture, more or less. Native American culture was mainly tied to totemism, more than any other, hence they are referenced the most.

[Dustfinger.9510]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Dustfinger.9510" said:Agreed. I'm hestitant to consider any to be related without confirmation or at least a-net leaning more heavily into the fallible evidence. But, tbf: Jotun have about as much in common with Kodan as Norn do. The same evidence of fallible in universe, one sided oral traditionsupports both theories. That oral tradition is either basically correct or incorrect.

Well, even ignoring the obvious bear form, norn and kodan have very similar beliefs (which is even noted and used as a lead-in for kodan to tell players about the belief of the Southward Claw being the progenator of norn). The fact both norn and kodan have cultural and religious views of the same exact spirits, when all other races don't, is fairly telling.

Similarly, both ogres and jotun have a distinct

lack

of religious beliefs - both are as atheistic as you can get in the setting without going full on antitheist like the charr do.

According to Ree, in

The Savage Pride of the Jotun

,:

"The jotun have lost many of the things that once made them great. Their lore is scattered, and much of it lost; any religion, higher learning, or secrets of invention that they once mastered have been eradicated"

So we can't really use religion as a disqualifier here since it may well have been the exact same for the Jotun before they lost it.

The obvious bear form should be considered if grouped with the obvious snowleapard, raven and wolf form. Nothing we know of in lore makes the bear form any more special than the others.

[Leo.3428]

Since we are going the writer's inspiration road, is there any outside-of-lore connection to be guessed between the Asura and their Hindu counterparts? I made a joking post about this earlier in this thread but I genuinely wonder about it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Gundahar.2765 said:Actually, in norse folklore there is a nieche of shamanism that ties to spirits animals, or spirits of the wild if you wish. They are called fylgja and they are guiding/guardian spirits that protect or embody the person giving him the perks or wisdom of that said animal. Stags, bears, wolves and raven were often the fylgjur. Sometimes these spirits can be human, either a diety or a dís, a female spirit that brings bad or good fortune to a person. The dísir, valkyries, norns are multi-referenced on the same matter, depends on the belief of every norse tribe and land.So, totemism is not a stranger to the norse, its been in almost every old culture, more or less. Native American culture was mainly tied to totemism, more than any other, hence they are referenced the most.

This is true; shamanism and animal attributes/association is common in almost every folklore in existence in one form or another, but what was in the norse folklore isn't really similar to what the norn have, and there are some very clear references to Native American folklore over nordic folklore, too.

@Dustfinger.9510 said:The obvious bear form should be considered if grouped with the obvious snowleapard, raven and wolf form. Nothing we know of in lore makes the bear form any more special than the others.

Well, in GW1, norn could only become the Bear. Dunno if this is strict lore or just a case of model limitation though (same would be so for animal forms of the non-Great Spirits). Regardless of animal forms being lore or mechanics though, before Jormag forced the norn south, Bear was the sole Great Spirit - now all four you listed are Great Spirits due to guiding the norn south.

So there is reason in lore that makes Bear and the bear form more special than the others. And could be a much larger lore reason than we have confirmed depending on that question about model limitation or lore.

@"Leo.3428" said:Since we are going the writer's inspiration road, is there any outside-of-lore connection to be guessed between the Asura and their Hindu counterparts? I made a joking post about this earlier in this thread but I genuinely wonder about it.Not really. Asura were originally to be a goblin-like race, super primitive and everything. There's no evidence to suggest that the asura take from Hindu inspiration beyond name, and that could be coincidence or just "nice name" as far as we know. Asura have more in common with goblins and gnome general fantasy lore.

[Dustfinger.9510]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dustfinger.9510 said:The obvious bear form should be considered if grouped with the obvious snowleapard, raven and wolf form. Nothing we know of in lore makes the bear form any more special than the others.

Well, in GW1, norn could only become the Bear. Dunno if this is strict lore or just a case of model limitation though (same would be so for animal forms of the non-Great Spirits). Regardless of animal forms being lore or mechanics though, before Jormag forced the norn south, Bear was the sole Great Spirit - now all four you listed are Great Spirits due to guiding the norn south.

So there

is

reason in lore that makes Bear and the bear form more special than the others. And could be a much larger lore reason than we have confirmed depending on that question about model limitation or lore.

Since the arguement is whether Norn are bears, we are looking at the forms Norn takes. Bear spirit is special in chronology. The form isn't, as far as we know. This arguement only solidifies the idea that the bear form comes from the bear spirit. Just like the other forms come from the other great spirits. Rather than due to Norn being bears.

[Leo.3428]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:There's no evidence to suggest that the asura take from Hindu inspiration beyond name, and that could be coincidence or just "nice name" as far as we know.Ha, too bad. I'd still build some clunky mythology made of technobabble, mysticism and cubes.

[WorldofBay.8160]

@hugo.4705 said:Back in the old day when they were underground, they either were eating cavernous species (Grubs, Spiders, Bats, Beetles.....) or plants in those caverns (Mosses, Vines...) or Mushrooms (fungi, btw not plant).

we all know that one spider that eats asura. that is a rather short cycle of life ...