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Time to bring down the Nerf hammer on guardian


Tyse the Black.6789

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Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

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@cryorion.9532 said:Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

FB should lose some offense and DH should lose some defense.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"RUNICBLACK.7630" said:

But let's be REAL honest ... that's not what the OP is asking for. He want's change, just for changes sake because there is some fallacy that mixing it all up again is actually APPEALING to established and new players ... does that actually make sense to anyone here?

Again, a bad assumption. I want overperforming specs brought in line... not just changes "for the sake of it." Guardian is overperforming and has been for years.

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@Tyse the Black.6789 said:

@"RUNICBLACK.7630" said:

But let's be REAL honest ... that's not what the OP is asking for. He want's change, just for changes sake because there is some fallacy that mixing it all up again is actually APPEALING to established and new players ... does that actually make sense to anyone here?

Again, a bad assumption. I want overperforming specs brought in line... not just changes "for the sake of it." Guardian is overperforming and has been for years.

Your wording is more than questionable if that was your intent. Something is always going to be meta, so complaining that something is meta for too long isn't about overperforming specs being brought inline ... that's simply a call for changes to make something else meta. I made no assumptions ... I just understand what meta is.
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@Obtena.7952 said:Well, let's start here ... I'm certainly not ... the argument against closer DPS is that the game and its content is designed to accommodate those wide DPS ranges to begin with, so the need for closer DPS doesn't exist if you play the game with that understanding.

If you actually want to take us down the 'things need to be fair between classes' path, then you have to be more honest in recognizing that the sum of all the 'things' a class will have to make those comparisons isn't something that can be measured to make a sound and logical argument in the first place.

But let's be REAL honest ... that's not what the OP is asking for. He want's change, just for changes sake because there is some fallacy that mixing it all up again is actually APPEALING to established and new players ... does that actually make sense to anyone here?

in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?no idea what you're trying to say in the second part.I'm not necessarily for nerfing guards cuz they're strong, but rather buff low dps classes.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Well, let's start here ... I'm certainly not ... the argument against closer DPS is that
the game and its content is designed to accommodate those wide DPS ranges to begin with
, so the need for closer DPS doesn't exist if you play the game with that understanding.

If you actually want to take us down the 'things need to be fair between classes' path, then you have to be more honest in recognizing that the sum of all the 'things' a class will have to make those comparisons isn't something that can be measured to make a sound and logical argument in the first place.

But let's be REAL honest ... that's not what the OP is asking for. He want's change, just for changes sake because there is some fallacy that mixing it all up again is actually APPEALING to established and new players ... does that actually make sense to anyone here?

in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?

For reasons that aren't related to DPS. Are you implying you can't think of a single reason other than DPS to play a class? I am sad for you if that's the case because the whole game is designed to allow people to do exactly that ... play for whatever reason they want.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?

For reasons that aren't related to DPS. Are you implying you can't think of a single reason other than DPS to play a class? I am sad for you if that's the case because the whole game is designed to allow people to do exactly that ... play for whatever reason they want.

what the hell. the convo is about pve dps being widely unequal, don't try to change the subject. additionally, don't try to make this a meta vs. play how you want scenario either, this is specifically about meta dps in pve. lol.

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@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

what the hell. the convo is about pve dps being widely unequal, don't try to change the subject. additionally, don't try to make this a meta vs. play how you want scenario either, this is specifically about meta dps in pve. lol.

Actually Tyse started the thread complaining about Guardians dominating in PvP(I really don't know where he is seeing that I'm PvP almost every season and I'm not seeing that) and then said that he is running into 2 to 3 Guardians in AT's (again I do tourneys and I'm not seeing it but to be fair other people's experience may vary) and than he was complaining about Guardians dominating in WvW an one of the main reasons for the WvW pirate ship model of conflict , the whole discussion on PvE was started later by other people.

"Guardian (core, dragonhunter and firebrand) has been meta defining for too long. Most automated tournament teams have 2-3 guardians and guardian is why the super boring WvW pirateship meta works so well."

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?

For reasons that aren't related to DPS. Are you implying you can't think of a single reason other than DPS to play a class? I am sad for you if that's the case because the whole game is designed to allow people to do exactly that ... play for whatever reason they want.

what the hell. the convo is about pve dps being widely unequal, don't try to change the subject. additionally, don't try to make this a meta vs. play how you want scenario either, this is specifically about meta dps in pve. lol.

OK ... I'm not changing any subject ... it's not a problem that there is widely unequal PVE DPS. The game is designed for those things to work in those wide ranges.

And to be honest, you aren't correct. Seems to me the OP is complaining about a PVP/WvW issue. If anything it was YOU that initiated this diversion about DPS for PVE, not me.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?

Because top-tier PvE dps classes and builds usually are trash at soloing content. Or because they had bad mechanics which don't transfer well from Fractals/Raids to open world bosses, etc. As example: scholar runes are absolute gabage for map completion, specailly for a Guardian.

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@Buran.3796 said:

in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?

Because top-tier PvE dps classes and builds usually are trash at soloing content. Or because they had bad mechanics which don't transfer well from Fractals/Raids to open world bosses, etc. As example: scholar runes are absolute gabage for map completion, specailly for a Guardian.

I prefer fire works in OW, but scholar is one of the best runes for DH in most situations. You cannot go wrong with extra damage. Sustainability usually is not an issue.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?

For reasons that aren't related to DPS. Are you implying you can't think of a single reason other than DPS to play a class? I am sad for you if that's the case because the whole game is designed to allow people to do exactly that ... play for whatever reason they want.

what the hell. the convo is about pve dps being widely unequal, don't try to change the subject. additionally, don't try to make this a meta vs. play how you want scenario either, this is specifically about meta dps in pve. lol.

OK ... I'm not changing any subject ... it's not a problem that there is widely unequal PVE DPS. The game is designed for those things to work in those wide ranges.

And to be honest, you aren't correct. Seems to me the OP is complaining about a PVP/WvW issue. If anything it was YOU that initiated this diversion about DPS for PVE, not me.

cuz apparently I can't bring up something that indirectly relates to the topic at hand, ty forgot about that I must be losing my conversational prowess. I am talking about pve end game content and I should've been more specific.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:in pve why would you take a class that does less dps?

For reasons that aren't related to DPS. Are you implying you can't think of a single reason other than DPS to play a class? I am sad for you if that's the case because the whole game is designed to allow people to do exactly that ... play for whatever reason they want.

what the hell. the convo is about pve dps being widely unequal, don't try to change the subject. additionally, don't try to make this a meta vs. play how you want scenario either, this is specifically about meta dps in pve. lol.

OK ... I'm not changing any subject ... it's not a problem that there is widely unequal PVE DPS. The game is designed for those things to work in those wide ranges.

And to be honest, you aren't correct. Seems to me the OP is complaining about a PVP/WvW issue. If anything it was YOU that initiated this diversion about DPS for PVE, not me.

cuz apparently I can't bring up something that indirectly relates to the topic at hand, ty forgot about that I must be losing my conversational prowess. I am talking about pve end game content and I should've been more specific.

Sure you can ... just don't accuse ME of being the one that is changing the subject when it's YOU.

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So, Guardians have too much Aegis, Necros have too much AOE Thiefs have too much Critic, lets nerf everything because you dont like how they play!! Dude Guardians are supposed to be a multiclass, for damage you have warriors and thiefs, for condi Necros and the rest, for Ala you have Mesmerss, the Guardian class was designed to be that way and to act as support or damage , you say that "in all 3 iterations and too much block chain when considered alongside the highly mobile burst potential" I could say the ridiculous amount of AOE the necros have piss me off, same with the stupid high Thief crit damage, Every class has something that makes them unique in their own playstyle. I used to play ton of wvw as a Healer firebrand so I know first hand how crazy is the Necro damage and the thief in pvp.

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@Tyse the Black.6789 said:Most automated tournament teams have 2-3 guardians and guardian is why the super boring WvW pirateship meta works so well.

Actually running more guardians is counter to pirateship meta. Run 2 firebrands per party and no pirateship group will beat you. If people didn't have sustain, blocks and stability, how would they push?

I take you're on NA, because no one on EU runs pirateship. It is just because NA likes running funky things like Mesmer and Revenant commanders on open tags. Just dodge wells (the middle sized AoEs), its that easy.

Btw, dragon banner needs nerfs, it is quite punishing for groups pushing in.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

FB should lose some offense and DH should lose some defense.

Don’t they pretty much already do that?

@Threather.9354 said:

@Tyse the Black.6789 said:Most automated tournament teams have 2-3 guardians and guardian is why the super boring WvW pirateship meta works so well.

Actually running more guardians is counter to pirateship meta. Run 2 firebrands per party and no pirateship group will beat you. If people didn't have sustain, blocks and stability, how would they push?

I take you're on NA, because no one on EU runs pirateship. It is just because NA likes running funky things like Mesmer and Revenant commanders on open tags. Just dodge wells (the middle sized AoEs), its that easy.

Btw, dragon banner needs nerfs, it is quite punishing for groups pushing in.

I’m on NA and run with a Zerg commander that does not do pirate ship meta. We normally chew up the zergs that do this too. Also, we do a very mixed group of classes. The exception being thieves and rangers.

Agree with the dragon banner nerf need. It’s annoying and we avoid using them because it’s a toxic and cheap tactic. Its especially annoying when the opposing Zerg runs 3 banners!

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@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

FB should lose some offense and DH should lose some defense.

Don’t they pretty much already do that?Not really, and that is the problem. You can seriously argue that that they've lost nothing for what they've gained.
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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

FB should lose some offense and DH should lose some defense.

Don’t they pretty much already do that?Not really, and that is the problem. You can seriously argue that that they've lost nothing for what they've gained.

So you would run dps on a FB vs Core dps?

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@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

FB should lose some offense and DH should lose some defense.

Don’t they pretty much already do that?Not really, and that is the problem. You can seriously argue that that they've lost nothing for what they've gained.

So you would run dps on a FB vs Core dps?

You can. Symbol Brand is a thing you know. FB has more things in its kit than a core guardian does.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

FB should lose some offense and DH should lose some defense.

Don’t they pretty much already do that?Not really, and that is the problem. You can seriously argue that that they've lost nothing for what they've gained.

So you would run dps on a FB vs Core dps?

You can. Symbol Brand is a thing you know. FB has more things in its kit than a core guardian does.

Core heavily outweighs FB for dps though. Sure you can do FB dps, but not like Core.

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@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:Indeed, Guardian is the most overperforming profession in game, in general, for years now.People got used to having so much so in case of proper balance, the class will be completely dead, totally unplayable and absolutely non-viable in every game mode. Yikes.I hope the trade offs DH and FB will get will be brutal.

FB should lose some offense and DH should lose some defense.

Don’t they pretty much already do that?Not really, and that is the problem. You can seriously argue that that they've lost nothing for what they've gained.

So you would run dps on a FB vs Core dps?

You can. Symbol Brand is a thing you know. FB has more things in its kit than a core guardian does.

Core heavily outweighs FB for dps though. Sure you can do FB dps, but not like Core.

And FB brings more CC to lock core into the symbols. Raw DPS numbers are not the end all be all of what wins a fight.

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Why did pve come up here all of a sudden? Firebrand is meta only in fractals solely due to quickness and aegis. DH is good dps but not the best. Not necessary in raids at all. They're also good for carrying really bad players throughout the game, but that's not what meta means.

In WvW, Firebrand is only 1/2 the problem. The other half is scourge. Nerfing guardian doesn't help the issue of pirate ship; and in fact Guardian was nerfed. It just got worse because some classes have limited access to stability and corrupts. There is also burn guard, but Anet did not nerf condi damage for some reason. It was also nerfed recently though. Of course, in large scale WvW, only thief and ranger are without a role though immobolize spam has been getting popular from ranger; and these two classes remain strong elsewhere in WvW.

Just because Guardian is the only well designed class doesn't mean you have to be bitter. :) It's not our fault Anet failed to come up with a vision for some classes and specs, thus making them overly specialized. Nerfs or buffs won't suddenly make say, scrapper, viable in pve. These things need to be fundamentally retooled per game mode.

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