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The new player experience needs love


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GW2 is a great game, but for new players not so much. While the game has fixed objectives for lvl 80 players with daily strikes, fractals, legendary obtainment etc, for the new player there is no definite aim which imo is really bad. As a new player the GW2 experience is basically hearts and map exploration. This sounds good. BUT, in a game where the rewards are crafting materials, there is no incentive to craft items! There are no recipe vendors that give you an idea of what you can do with the materials you have gathered, there is no daily crafting to even get you started in crafting. Instead you are left with mindlessly going through the open world with zero objective until it becomes boring and you quit the game. For the new player, the game desperately needs objectives. Put in a system where the new player can obtain recipes to craft level 80 exotic gear, this way the player will know what certain materials are used for and the player will have the objective of going out and gathering those materials, participating in events, etc. This will make the leveling up experience rewarding and fun. Put in a system of daily crafting. We should not go to an external website to begin crafting! This is a game where the rewards are crafting materials, introducing crafting to new players should be high up on the priority list. Have a daily dungeon system similar to the daily strike missions with rewards at the end of the week. I feel like these daily missions can be given out at the order you joined (vigil, priory, whispers). The order can give out daily missions with recipe rewards so you actually feel like an initiate climbing up the ranks and by the time you reach 80, you would have crafted your armor and weapons ready to explore Tyria and beyond.

Totally unrelated: Please can we have campfires in maps as a place to cook food.

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You seem pretty hung up on crafting. The problem with making crafting useful for leveling is that leveling is a temporary state. How long does the average player spend at level 14, for instance? Half an hour? How much time can you realistically spend crafting gear that only serves you for a few hours before it becomes obsolete?

You also have to keep in mind economics. If the value of the gear itself is less than the value of the materials used to craft it, as is often the case, players would simply buy the gear on TP (which makes sense, since leveling gear upgrades only cost a few silver!). You could artificially raise the value of crafted gear by giving it a vendor value high enough to make it worthwhile to craft simply for the vendor price, but that would also raise the value of the materials used to craft it (they're inexpensive for a reason!). And round and round we go!

You don't need to craft your armor at level 80 to explore Tyria and beyond. They make that relatively easy. Crafting in this game is mostly used for crafting collection items and ascended/legendary gear. These are things players need/want to achieve various objectives and so they do have value. Crafting isn't useless. It just doesn't work the way you want it to and the things you suggest wouldn't make that happen.

Having said that, I have no problem with them adding crafting dailies or dungeon dailies. We already have it set up so you only need to do 3 objectives from any daily list. Adding more ways to play the way you want is not a bad idea. But I did want to point out that we have something called "fractals" which are simply dungeons by another name, and fractals do have their own dailies as well as their own form of progression which requires ascended gear crafting and has significantly better rewards when you progress to T4 and challenge mode fractals. It's a great way to earn a bunch of gold every day, but you have to gear your way to the top in fractals and crafting might help you to do that!

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I just came back to the game a month ago. I had a level 50 character, but couldn't remember anything, so just started a new character. The leveling process from 1 - 80 was pretty good in my opinion. The first few levels were basically just a tutorial and I started my personal story. When I had to gain more levels to continue my personal story I completed maps, which I find pretty cool since there are all kinds of environments and jumping puzzles to stumble on for a new player to experience.

As you say, crafting wasn't anything I was interested in while leveling. I didn't need to craft anything, and I really didn't have enough mats while leveling anyway. I did some cooking crafts just to try it out while leveling. But, basically I gathered resources during my game play once I found out the ease of depositing into material storage. Maybe some short tutorial at early levels urging players to proactively collect materials and showing that materials will not take up precious inventory space? It could even be a heart quest at the starting area to try to make it a bit more new player friendly. You could get some cool recipes with once the quest is complete as well?

In my experience, when my character hit level 80 I basically leveled up my weapon crafting to almost 400 in just a couple hours because I had tons of materials from my many hours exploring maps. But honestly I am glad I didn't have to worry about crafting for progression or gaining gear, and just could have fun roaming the lands of Tyria and progressing my personal story. I think offering a few high level recipes (one or two exotic weapons/armor, etc.) for the chosen class may be a good way to pique interest in the system from an earlier start however. I like that nothing really felt like a grind though. Just story, explore, story, explore. I liked the sandbox feel to the game with the option to do the story to kind of lead you somewhere.

So, maybe it is just me, but I found the story to be enough to keep me leveling to 80. My definite aim as a new player was to kill an elder dragon for those 100 or so hours or game play. Haha. Granted, for the last 15 levels or so I had the 50% XP bonus from the recent event, so maybe that made things smoother at the higher levels? I dunno.

On a side note regarding the story, although weak in some parts, overall it was fun. One thing I found strange was that Destiny's Edge just stayed inside the airship when I had to use the cannons to fight the elder dragon minions in the last instance. Why weren't they out there helping keep the mobs on deck off my back? Seemed really...out of place? Maybe it was just my instance and it was bugged? Also, I wanted to do the story missions for the Tyria Dungeons when I got the emails, but it is hard to get a group since the majority of players are focusing on 80+ content, speed runs, etc. I wish there was a way to do the story version of dungeons "solo" or with AI support or something. Maybe somehow the story Dungeons can be made solo-able and provide some crafting related recipes?

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Exploring the world of Tyria is in of itself, an objective for a new player.

Doing hearts and map completions is a goal to acheive for new players and is one of the primary draws that the initial release game had. The other is getting to level 80 so you unlock all your class skills and specs while gaining access to all the level 80 daily activities.

As far as crafting goes... It's more expensive to level up a craft from 1-400 than it is to buy a full set of level 80 Exotics of the market with perfect stats. This doesn't even include the expense that is actually crafting said exotics after reacing 400 crafting (Or the fact that a single crafting discipline cannot produce 1 full set of gear as Armour, Weapons and Jewelery all require different disciplines, with weapons being additionally split across multiple disciplines)

AND this is while factoring in leveling crafting via following a crafting website's optimized leveling guide to level you up at the lowest cost possible.

As such, I don't think pushing players towards crafting would be beneficial at all. Given that crafting in of itself is only really useful for obtaining Ascended gear and Legendaries (With Cooking and Artificing being useful to make your own consumables) both of which are only valuable while at level 80 and quite rich. Oh, and also getting big bags (Though, sell enough materials and you can get gold to buy some bags)

Imagine how impressed new players would be spending hours leveling crafting, spending all their resources (Gold and Karma) on getting recipes and vendor bought ingredients... Only to then recieve better gear from level up rewards or personal story for free anyway.

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@"AliamRationem.5172" said:You seem pretty hung up on crafting. The problem with making crafting useful for leveling is that leveling is a temporary state. How long does the average player spend at level 14, for instance? Half an hour? How much time can you realistically spend crafting gear that only serves you for a few hours before it becomes obsolete?

You also have to keep in mind economics. If the value of the gear itself is less than the value of the materials used to craft it, as is often the case, players would simply buy the gear on TP (which makes sense, since leveling gear upgrades only cost a few silver!). You could artificially raise the value of crafted gear by giving it a vendor value high enough to make it worthwhile to craft simply for the vendor price, but that would also raise the value of the materials used to craft it (they're inexpensive for a reason!). And round and round we go!

You don't need to craft your armor at level 80 to explore Tyria and beyond. They make that relatively easy. Crafting in this game is mostly used for crafting collection items and ascended/legendary gear. These are things players need/want to achieve various objectives and so they do have value. Crafting isn't useless. It just doesn't work the way you want it to and the things you suggest wouldn't make that happen.

Having said that, I have no problem with them adding crafting dailies or dungeon dailies. We already have it set up so you only need to do 3 objectives from any daily list. Adding more ways to play the way you want is not a bad idea. But I did want to point out that we have something called "fractals" which are simply dungeons by another name, and fractals do have their own dailies as well as their own form of progression which requires ascended gear crafting and has significantly better rewards when you progress to T4 and challenge mode fractals. It's a great way to earn a bunch of gold every day, but you have to gear your way to the top in fractals and crafting might help you to do that!

I have mentioned crafting because the rewards for doing almost anything in game are crafting materials. Rewards motivate play. Currently, you do map events and get crafting materials. For a new player crafting materials are not really a reward. There should be an in game system where a player feels rewarded for obtaining these items. This was the reason i mentioned gear recipes. Also the crafting reward need not be an instant reward but rather it can build up to one. Just imagine you have a recipe for a cool looking armor set or a weapon set that needs you to obtain resources, complete hearts, do dungeons, obtain collectables, etc right from level 15 to level 80 regions. You would go around collecting this while leveling up and it would feel rewarding at the end. They have this system for legendaries, and they can implement something similar for new players.

I don't see how the economy of the game would suffer if more people are using the systems in game. I know you do not need to have level 80 gear to explore the base game, but having lvl 80 gear adds a sense of achievement. Just like all achievements in game are optional, many complete it for the same reason.

Also why would you say crafting is useless when most rewards are crafting materials? In ESO and WOW you get gear by exploration etc. That is not the case in GW2. In GW2 for the new player the only option available to them is dungeon gear and crafting. Fractals are a very good system, but the dungeons are introduced in the story and they contain elements of the story. For a new player who is just coming in, they are much more likely to try out the dungeons first.

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@"firedragon.8953" said:You could get some cool recipes with once the quest is complete as well?

I think offering a few high level recipes (one or two exotic weapons/armor, etc.) for the chosen class may be a good way to pique interest in the system from an earlier start however.

Also, I wanted to do the story missions for the Tyria Dungeons when I got the emails, but it is hard to get a group since the majority of players are focusing on 80+ content, speed runs, etc. I wish there was a way to do the story version of dungeons "solo" or with AI support or something. Maybe somehow the story Dungeons can be made solo-able and provide some crafting related recipes?

The last paragraph is exactly why I made this thread. I have come across many new players wanting to try out dungeons and they cannot find groups. This is such a shame because the dungeons in GW2 are really nicely made with voice acting, a story etc. I have no idea why dungeons are just ignored. I do not think dungeons should be made solo (currently, they can be done solo if you got the gear and build), group content can be really enjoyable but incentivizing players to do dungeons would be a good way to repopulate this area.

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@Tazer.2157 said:

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:You seem pretty hung up on crafting. The problem with making crafting useful for leveling is that leveling is a temporary state. How long does the average player spend at level 14, for instance? Half an hour? How much time can you realistically spend crafting gear that only serves you for a few hours before it becomes obsolete?

You also have to keep in mind economics. If the value of the gear itself is less than the value of the materials used to craft it, as is often the case, players would simply buy the gear on TP (which makes sense, since leveling gear upgrades only cost a few silver!). You could artificially raise the value of crafted gear by giving it a vendor value high enough to make it worthwhile to craft simply for the vendor price, but that would also raise the value of the materials used to craft it (they're inexpensive for a reason!). And round and round we go!

You don't need to craft your armor at level 80 to explore Tyria and beyond. They make that relatively easy. Crafting in this game is mostly used for crafting collection items and ascended/legendary gear. These are things players need/want to achieve various objectives and so they do have value. Crafting isn't useless. It just doesn't work the way you want it to and the things you suggest wouldn't make that happen.

Having said that, I have no problem with them adding crafting dailies or dungeon dailies. We already have it set up so you only need to do 3 objectives from any daily list. Adding more ways to play the way you want is not a bad idea. But I did want to point out that we have something called "fractals" which are simply dungeons by another name, and fractals do have their own dailies as well as their own form of progression which requires ascended gear crafting and has significantly better rewards when you progress to T4 and challenge mode fractals. It's a great way to earn a bunch of gold every day, but you have to gear your way to the top in fractals and crafting might help you to do that!

I have mentioned crafting because the rewards for doing almost anything in game are crafting materials. Rewards motivate play. Currently, you do map events and get crafting materials. For a new player crafting materials are not really a reward. There should be an in game system where a player feels rewarded for obtaining these items. This was the reason i mentioned gear recipes. Also the crafting reward need not be an instant reward but rather it can build up to one. Just imagine you have a recipe for a cool looking armor set or a weapon set that needs you to obtain resources, complete hearts, do dungeons, obtain collectables, etc right from level 15 to level 80 regions. You would go around collecting this while leveling up and it would feel rewarding at the end. They have this system for legendaries, and they can implement something similar for new players.

I don't see how the economy of the game would suffer if more people are using the systems in game. I know you do not need to have level 80 gear to explore the base game, but having lvl 80 gear adds a sense of achievement. Just like all achievements in game are optional, many complete it for the same reason.

Also why would you say crafting is useless when most rewards are crafting materials? In ESO and WOW you get gear by exploration etc. That is not the case in GW2. In GW2 for the new player the only option available to them is dungeon gear and crafting. Fractals are a very good system, but the dungeons are introduced in the story and they contain elements of the story. For a new player who is just coming in, they are much more likely to try out the dungeons first.

What you're describing are collections, craftable skins, and useful combat enhancements (i.e. gear). The crafting system is used for all of these things. You're just new and haven't experienced that part of the game yet. This is an MMO and like most MMOs, the leveling experience is just the tip of the iceberg. Love the feedback and I don't disagree with what you're saying. I just think you lack perspective and need to play a bit more before you understand what you're looking at.

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@Tazer.2157 said:

Also why would you say crafting is useless when most rewards are crafting materials? In ESO and WOW you get gear by exploration etc. That is not the case in GW2. In GW2 for the new player the only option available to them is dungeon gear and crafting.

Dungeon gear and crafting isn't the only way to get gear in GW2. If that were the case, most of my characters would still be in their starter gear. I have put a lot of years into WoW and have also played ESO some as well, so I know how their gear systems work. There are a number of ways in GW2 to get gear without crafting or doing dungeons. Gear drops in the world while you are exploring, killing mobs, doing heart quests, etc. While I play, my inventory is constantly being filled with weapons and armor of blue and green quality. I have to stop often to either put it on the trading post or salvage. There is also gear almost always rewarded during your story quests and living world chapters.

Also, many of the karma reward merchants offer gear once you open them up from doing heart quests. That's actually where I got a majority of my gear when I first started playing GW2. I did some crafting in the beginning, but really didn't go very far with it in the beginning because as others have said here, you level faster than you can keep yourself geared from crafting. I suppose if you wanted to spend a lot of gold to buy mats to keep it in line with your level you could, but that wouldn't be easy for a new player at all.

I also disagree that new players don't have any fixed objectives. I think there are many objectives a new player has to work towards. You have the zone completion, map completion, the story missions, etc. The open world exploration, heart quests and story of GW2 is the objective in my opinion. As you continue to level you have more and more to work towards. The mastery system, crafting ascended armor, legendary weapons, LW chapters, expansions, fractals, world bosses, tons of events and the like.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding somewhat, but GW2 definitely isn't a game that I see lacking really for the new player. There is so much to do and work towards, no matter if you want to work towards it casually or at a quicker pace.

I do agree with you on the part though about the few people who do dungeons. That's pretty unfortunate because they tie into the story and can be fun.

Edited to add: I do like some of your suggestions though. I could see some of them being fun and beneficial for some new players. Maybe you should post those in the suggestions section. I just disagree that the new player experience is lacking in objectives. I think there is lots in this game for a new player to aim towards. You also have achievements to work towards. This game is different from other mmo's like WoW and ESO. I for one am very happy it is different and hope it never starts going in the direction of other mmo's. I love that GW2 is different and unique.

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Crafting mats are a source of Gold; that's why there is a Trading Post, and an integral part of the game's economy.
A (new) player can buy the gear they need from the Trading Post.The New Player Tutorial has an achievement that involves crafting.The Level-Up rewards include information on most aspects of the game, as well as gear.

It may, or may not, be easier to find groups for Dungeons when they are on offer as a Daily.

I don't think 'new' players could craft most Exotic gear while leveling as they don't have access to the mats from gathering. They would need to buy the mats from the Trading Post, which brings us back to....players can buy their gear on the Trading Post. Also, there are Exotic gear Vendors in Orr for a reason.

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The lack of direction in the NPE is one of the biggest issues with the change. It used to be that you received a story quest every 2 levels or so, and that was enough to guide your map exploration. Even if you needed to spend some time leveling up, you had a direction to move toward because that next step was always visible, and you could do the hearts on the way to prepare for it. After they moved all the story quests to 10 level increments with no pointers to where you should go in between, the journey feels completely aimless.

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@"Tazer.2157" said:The last paragraph is exactly why I made this thread. I have come across many new players wanting to try out dungeons and they cannot find groups. This is such a shame because the dungeons in GW2 are really nicely made with voice acting, a story etc. I have no idea why dungeons are just ignored. I do not think dungeons should be made solo (currently, they can be done solo if you got the gear and build), group content can be really enjoyable but incentivizing players to do dungeons would be a good way to repopulate this area.

To my understanding there are two choices when doing a dungeon (I still haven't done one yet, so I don't really know). Even if people were going to do them again for loot or rewards, I'm guessing they would choose the faster "non-story" version of the dungeon. The reason why I think the story mode should be solo-able is so that the play can continue to enjoy the story. The personal story can be done alone, but the dungeons can't. In the personal story you really don't know much about Destiny's Edge, and they are with you at the end of the story, but they seem very "side-lined" that I really didn't care too much about who they were. From a story telling perspective, allowing a player the ability to access the dungeons when they become available would be great in my opinion.

I also wouldn't mind getting rewarded with a recipe to craft a "Masterwork" version of the Royal Ascalonian Weapons (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Royal_Ascalonian_weapons). They look cool enough to entice people to craft to get the skins and make sense to receive from Ascalonian Dungeons. It may compete with other reward tracks though because I'm not so sure how this could potentially devalue the exotic versions of these weapons.

Also, dungeons and even the higher level content somehow seems a little intimidating because there is almost too much to do. I think letting players understand what dungeons are beforehand at their own pace seems nice and would maybe spark an interest in doing the "explorable" version of the dungeons with friends later on. How I see it now, it just creates additional holes in the personal story and leaves newer players in a weird type of limbo where they are unable to access content they are deliberately told to go check out.

@"Leablo.2651" said:After they moved all the story quests to 10 level increments with no pointers to where you should go in between, the journey feels completely aimless.

Interesting. They changed the interval?

With the experience of a new player fresh in my mind, I definitely didn't feel like my journey was aimless. Maybe that's kind of what I expected from an open world game though. I liked making my own aims. I'm going to get this map to 100% was a common one, usually followed by, "I wonder if I can get up here". I guess I really just like the exploration element of this game and why I play it over more over more "guided" games. I don't feel like I have to do anything, but I always have something to do.

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@"firedragon.8953" said:Interesting. They changed the interval?

With the experience of a new player fresh in my mind, I definitely didn't feel like my journey was aimless. Maybe that's kind of what I expected from an open world game though. I liked making my own aims. I'm going to get this map to 100% was a common one, usually followed by, "I wonder if I can get up here". I guess I really just like the exploration element of this game and why I play it over more over more "guided" games. I don't feel like I have to do anything, but I always have something to do.

It's mostly at the start of the game that this is an "issue". Once you finish the tutorial instance, you cannot progress the story, instead, you go around helping random people for a while until you reach level 10. The rest of the story being every 10 levels instead of 2 isn't as bad in my opinion, in fact I prefer the new version, you can play the story in one go, instead of splitting it in several pieces. It's only that first story that requires reaching level 10 that is a bit questionable, although not a big deal by any means.

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So the majority of arguments are

Buy everything on the tp.
First as many try the game a with free to play accounts, they do not have access to the trading post. Also if they do have access to the tp is it really better gameplay to have new players skip majority of the game systems and have them buy items directly off the tp? The game should atleast make an effort to let new players know what the game contains. I’m not a new player and I have played gw2 for over a year or two, but I know less about the systems in gw2 than say eso, a game I played for 6 months. In ESO the leveling up system is great. You discover recipes, you begin your crafting journey, you feel like your character is getting stronger. For example, in eso I used to craft consumables all the time. In gw2 on the other hand, I don’t even bother.

New players have hearts and map completion. Put another way, why bother with hearts and map completion at all when all you can do as the game encourages is get on a farm train, sell items on tp for gold and repeat. When there is no need to complete an objective, that objective is useless. Again is this an mmo or a farming simulator where the ultimate aim is not to learn the game or even find out what the game contains but to buy and sell items on the trading post.

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@Tazer.2157 said:Also if they do have access to the tp is it really better gameplay to have new players skip majority of the game systems and have them buy items directly off the tp?

Given that buying stuff off the TP is literally the best way to obtain items, yes.

Otherwise, you're going to spent hours and hours and hours working with RNG. Be it getting RNG Exotics from drops or getting crafting materials (Trophies required to make stat components, Ectoplasms for Exotic gear etc) and spending far, far, far more gold that you would simply buying the items you need off the TP allowing you to simply care about playing the game.

Since that's the thing. Crafting is literally just an end-game thing. It's not worthwhile to pursue it for any reason other than Legendaries or Ascended gear. It's far easier to obtain Exotics through just purchasing off the TP and in the case of HoT stat lines, participating in HoT events (Which are far easier when you have a set of Exotic gear with not trash stats)

It's only a very minor part of the game. There are a plethora of other parts of the game outside of crafting. OW (Where you can get achievements, rare skins, transmutation charges to use said rare skins and participate in events and world bosses), Dungeons, Fractals, Strikes, Raids, WvW and PvP.

None of these other systems are being bypassed simply by getting a starter set of gear via purchasing off the TP. Heck, a new player might even use a level 80 boost at some point and get a free set of Exotics and some 15 slot bags. Does that mean they skipped a majority of the games systems? Or does it mean that they can instead focus on enjoying the games systems because collecting loot is an incredibly minor part of this game which defines itself as not being a gear treadmill type game.

@Tazer.2157 said:In ESO the leveling up system is great. You discover recipes, you begin your crafting journey, you feel like your character is getting stronger. For example, in eso I used to craft consumables all the time. In gw2 on the other hand, I don’t even bother.

Different strokes for different folks honestly.

I played ESO quite a lot and crafting was never a thing I really did. I was never incentivised to do it. Anything I needed, I could just buy because I had a huge stack of gold from... "Borrowing" items from civilian NPC's...

With crafting really only being worthwhile if you happened to want gear with one of the few crafting exclusive set bonuses (Otherwise you can just farm a particular zone or dungeon to get the stuff you need and eventually get the highest rarity and be done with gearing)

As a result, I only did crafting after getting all my characters set up, just because why not just do the daily crafting orders for something to do... Gotta spend my truckload of gold somewhere...

@Tazer.2157 said:New players have hearts and map completion. Put another way, why bother with hearts and map completion at all when all you can do as the game encourages is get on a farm train, sell items on tp for gold and repeat. When there is no need to complete an objective, that objective is useless. Again is this an mmo or a farming simulator where the ultimate aim is not to learn the game or even find out what the game contains but to buy and sell items on the trading post.

Hearts can be fun. Map completion can be fun. You can also get items for collections from Heart vendors, as well as some unique skins.

The objective here is fun. GW2 is all about finding what you consider fun and doing it. You don't need to farm gold (The game literally gives it to you, 2g per day from daily PvE bag for doing like 4 events and taking a Mesmer portal at a JP. Plus whatever you eke out from selling loot on the TP such as like 20s per Ecto which can be easily obtained from salvaging the stacks of 250+ Unidentified Items you get from doing basically anything in the OW) especially since most Exotic gear on the TP is dirt cheap, we're talking like 30s-2g a piece (With only really Berserker gear being 2g because it's BiS for DPS most other stats are 1g max)

As such, Crafting is something not everyone finds fun. Ergo, forcing people into it is probably not a good idea.

Hearts and Map completion is something not everyone finds fun. But it's not forced on anyone. If someone wishes, they can skip that and just level up doing PS/Events/mob farming (The latter being extremely efficient with boosters. I.e. With a Birthday Booster and a Killstreak Booster I can level a character 1-80 in about 3 hours) and then start doing level 80 content such as LW (If available), events, instanced content or ust hop into WvW/PvP (Heck a level 2 character can simply hop into sPvP and skip literally the majority of the game and only play sPvP if they wanted)

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I think the game is pretty easy to learn and you make quick progress - quicker than in other MMORPG. Maybe a lot of stuff is "too much" for new players: There are dungeons, raids, fractals. And lots of crafting stuff. But they don't need to know that all at once.

Also in most cases exotic gear (at least for story and open world pve) is enough. Crafting not needed at all.

Expansions seem to do a good job in introducing the masteries slowly. At least HoT. (Haven't played further than prologue of PoF.)

The main problem I see is: The latest stuff is used for advertising and to bring in new players. They might be confused by jumping directly to season 5 (Icebrood Saga) for example. Doing personal core story and normally leveling to 80 ... is great for new players. Game should encourage them to do so instead of jumping to latest content and using a boost 80 ticket.

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@"Luthan.5236" said:I think the game is pretty easy to learn and you make quick progress - quicker than in other MMORPG. Maybe a lot of stuff is "too much" for new players: There are dungeons, raids, fractals. And lots of crafting stuff. But they don't need to know that all at once.Also in most cases exotic gear (at least for story and open world pve) is enough. Crafting not needed at all.Expansions seem to do a good job in introducing the masteries slowly. At least HoT. (Haven't played further than prologue of PoF.)The main problem I see is: The latest stuff is used for advertising and to bring in new players. They might be confused by jumping directly to season 5 (Icebrood Saga) for example. Doing personal core story and normally leveling to 80 ... is great for new players. Game should encourage them to do so instead of jumping to latest content and using a boost 80 ticket.

Highly agree.

More emphasis should be put into teaching about how experience points are not earned faster by killing high-level mobs when you are a low-level as it does in other games.( Plus, in our wiki, the Experience -> Mechanics -> Defeating Foes section needs to be better worded so it doesn't promote this idea )

Our most excellent /wiki (game guide) doesn't seem to be promoted during low-level training experiences. A mention of buff utility and food items would be good for new players as well.

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@"Tazer.2157" said:So the majority of arguments are

Buy everything on the tp.

First as many try the game a with free to play accounts, they do not have access to the trading post. Also if they do have access to the tp is it really better gameplay to have new players skip majority of the game systems and have them buy items directly off the tp? The game should atleast make an effort to let new players know what the game contains. I’m not a new player and I have played gw2 for over a year or two, but I know less about the systems in gw2 than say eso, a game I played for 6 months. In ESO the leveling up system is great. You discover recipes, you begin your crafting journey, you feel like your character is getting stronger. For example, in eso I used to craft consumables all the time. In gw2 on the other hand, I don’t even bother.

New players have hearts and map completion. Put another way, why bother with hearts and map completion at all when all you can do as the game encourages is get on a farm train, sell items on tp for gold and repeat. When there is no need to complete an objective, that objective is useless. Again is this an mmo or a farming simulator where the ultimate aim is not to learn the game or even find out what the game contains but to buy and sell items on the trading post.

By "playing" for 2 years, you mean you've had an account for 2 years. Honestly, with the assumptions you're making, you sound pretty much brand new to this game. Are you sure you aren't just an ESO player who has a F2P GW2 account they never use?

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@Tazer.2157 said:So the majority of arguments are

Buy everything on the tp.

First as many try the game a with free to play accounts, they do not have access to the trading post. Also if they do have access to the tp is it really better gameplay to have new players skip majority of the game systems and have them buy items directly off the tp? The game should atleast make an effort to let new players know what the game contains. I’m not a new player and I have played gw2 for over a year or two, but I know less about the systems in gw2 than say eso, a game I played for 6 months. In ESO the leveling up system is great. You discover recipes, you begin your crafting journey, you feel like your character is getting stronger. For example, in eso I used to craft consumables all the time. In gw2 on the other hand, I don’t even bother.

New players have hearts and map completion. Put another way, why bother with hearts and map completion at all when all you can do as the game encourages is get on a farm train, sell items on tp for gold and repeat. When there is no need to complete an objective, that objective is useless. Again is this an mmo or a farming simulator where the ultimate aim is not to learn the game or even find out what the game contains but to buy and sell items on the trading post.

I listed a number of ways to get gear in my previous post that doesn’t involve crafting, dungeons or buying off the trading post. I personally have rarely bought from the trading post. I’m confused as to how you don’t seem to see in all this time you say you have played, that mobs drop gear, you get gear from karma merchants from doing heart quests, from your personal story, living world stories, etc.

The more of your posts I read, it sounds as if maybe the systems of this game just aren’t to your liking and you prefer other mmo’s, and that’s perfectly fine. The problem with your arguments though is much of what you are trying to say is just false.

If anything, I think they have improved upon the new player experience over the years. I originally started playing from the very first closed beta. The game now has more pop ups and direction than it once did. Every time you level you are given tips about what to expect in the levels to come. If you actually click on those tips, it gives you even more information. You are even given gear and gathering tools as you level. I don’t see where the game doesn’t help guide you.

The heart quests and encouraged exploration is part of what people love about the game. You do those and you open up achievements, karma merchants, etc. GW2 has so many different things a player can do. You aren’t on rails like WoW as an example. Maybe you prefer that type of play style? If so, all good. But GW2 is a different type of mmo and I don’t feel we need it to be another clone of others. Many people like this game because it’s different.

I suppose the game is only a farming simulator if that’s how you choose to play it and see it. I personally haven’t ever played it that way and don’t see it that way at all. You have many options what to do and how to play. How you choose to play it is your choice. The game doesn’t need to change because you don’t want to explore or see what the game has to offer.

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@"Tazer.2157" said:

By "playing" for 2 years, you mean you've had an account for 2 years. Honestly, with the assumptions you're making, you sound pretty much brand new to this game. Are you sure you aren't just an ESO player who has a F2P GW2 account they never use?

Great assumption there bud. But you are right, as a player who has been playing the game for 2 + years I barely know anything about the game because the game barely bothers with it anyway Why bother playing the game when you can have others play it for you. All you have to do it buy items off the TP right? That really defines FUN. For most of my time even up to path of fire, I was stuck with gear I got grinding PvP for dungeon rewards because dungeons are empty. That was it. I am pretty sure I am not alone in this because again by the time you reach Orr for the "karma merchants" ppl are so fond of you lose interest in the game. Buying armor for karma is the most basic experience you can ask for. It is a lazy design and I am pretty surprised that people defend this when they complain about grinding crafting materials when they have no problem grinding karma.

I am not asking crafting to be made mandatory, I am asking for a better experience than just running around aimlessly doing hearts. Teach the in game systems to the players coming in. Have the gameplay be more engaging. Make the exploration more rewarding.

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@"SummerRayne.4672" said:

I listed a number of ways to get gear in my previous post that doesn’t involve crafting, dungeons or buying off the trading post. I personally have rarely bought from the trading post. I’m confused as to how you don’t seem to see in all this time you say you have played, that mobs drop gear, you get gear from karma merchants from doing heart quests, from your personal story, living world stories, etc.

Green, yellow and blue gear does not count :/ They can be considered trash drops. These gear drops create no excitement when they drop and they serve no purpose other than to be scavenged. The system of getting gear from karma merchants is lazy. It does not introduce you to the systems in game, it only encourages karma grind. The point I am making is not "ways to get gear" it is about creating more engaging gameplay.

The more of your posts I read, it sounds as if maybe the systems of this game just aren’t to your liking and you prefer other mmo’s, and that’s perfectly fine. The problem with your arguments though is much of what you are trying to say is just false.

Stop assuming what I enjoy and what I don't. If I do not care about the game, I would not spend time coming in here and trying to put in suggestions.

If anything, I think they have improved upon the new player experience over the years. I originally started playing from the very first closed beta. The game now has more pop ups and direction than it once did. Every time you level you are given tips about what to expect in the levels to come. If you actually click on those tips, it gives you even more information. You are even given gear and gathering tools as you level. I don’t see where the game doesn’t help guide you.

Do those rewards make you excited? No they don't. Reward system should feel rewarding. Currently the reward system feels like a system put in because it has to be there.

The heart quests and encouraged exploration is part of what people love about the game. You do those and you open up achievements, karma merchants, etc. GW2 has so many different things a player can do. You aren’t on rails like WoW as an example. Maybe you prefer that type of play style? If so, all good. But GW2 is a different type of mmo and I don’t feel we need it to be another clone of others. Many people like this game because it’s different.

WoW has more content than GW2. If anything is on rails, it is GW2. On the contrary exploration is not encouraged in the game. Why? Because it is more efficient to go directly to a lvl 80 zone like Orr, wait for a farming train, join up, get the drops, sell them on tp, and repeat. Is doing hearts really fun? If they are fun why were they removed in the expansions? The expansions barely have hearts. Players complain about heart completion. Why is making heart completion mandatory a good thing?

I suppose the game is only a farming simulator if that’s how you choose to play it and see it. I personally haven’t ever played it that way and don’t see it that way at all. You have many options what to do and how to play. How you choose to play it is your choice. The game doesn’t need to change because you don’t want to explore or see what the game has to offer.

I wish the game would show us the various ways we can play it. That is what I am asking for. By making daily dungeons, daily crafting achievements, it shows new players different ways to approach the game other than karma merchants and the tp.

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@Tazer.2157 said:Put in a system where the new player can obtain recipes to craft level 80 exotic gear

The necessary recipes for that are either just doing discovery or already available from the NPC standing right next to the crafting station.

We should not go to an external website to begin crafting!

Sure ... those websites didn't even exist back when many us were leveling our crafting. Seems like pretty great proof that they are not necessary.

This is a game where the rewards are crafting materials,

It rewards you with items. Some items can be used for crafting. If you choose to craft then you need to learn how to do it. If you want to do something then you have to have to learn, there is simply no getting around that.

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@keenedge.9675 said:

@"Luthan.5236" said:I think the game is pretty easy to learn and you make quick progress - quicker than in other MMORPG. Maybe a lot of stuff is "too much" for new players: There are dungeons, raids, fractals. And lots of crafting stuff. But they don't need to know that all at once.Also in most cases exotic gear (at least for story and open world pve) is enough. Crafting not needed at all.Expansions seem to do a good job in introducing the masteries slowly. At least HoT. (Haven't played further than prologue of PoF.)
The main problem
I see is: The latest stuff is used for advertising and to bring in new players. They might be confused by jumping directly to season 5 (Icebrood Saga) for example. Doing personal core story and normally leveling to 80 ... is great for new players. Game should encourage them to do so instead of jumping to latest content and using a boost 80 ticket.

Highly agree.

More emphasis should be put into teaching about how experience points are not earned faster by killing high-level mobs when you are a low-level as it does in other games.( Plus, in our wiki, the Experience -> Mechanics -> Defeating Foes section needs to be better worded so it doesn't promote this idea )

Our most excellent /wiki (game guide) doesn't seem to be promoted during low-level training experiences. A mention of buff utility and food items would be good for new players as well.

Crafting explained at L12Food explained at L28Utility Consumables at L32

It would be good if the Wiki, and how to access it in-game was mentioned, I will agree.

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@"SummerRayne.4672" said:I also disagree that new players don't have any fixed objectives. I think there are many objectives a new player has to work towards. You have the zone completion, map completion, the story missions, etc. The open world exploration, heart quests and story of GW2 is the objective in my opinion. As you continue to level you have more and more to work towards. The mastery system, crafting ascended armor, legendary weapons, LW chapters, expansions, fractals, world bosses, tons of events and the like.

GW2 has objectives. The main difference with other games is that it doesn't really do anything to push you towards doing them.

In some other game there is things you must do to continue progressing(if you want to fight this boss then you must defeat that boss first, your gear must be at least this good to do this content, etc.). In GW2 it's "hey there are some stuff to do ... you could do them if you want or not". Even in the exceptional case with fractals and AR you can potentially avoid getting that by figuring out how to avoid the attacks that applies agony but that in itself is a goal that the player has decided on.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding somewhat, but GW2 definitely isn't a game that I see lacking really for the new player. There is so much to do and work towards, no matter if you want to work towards it casually or at a quicker pace.

Key point being "if you want to". Should it start being more pushy? That would start undermining one of its key features.

Must I do crafting? NoMust I do the story? NoMust I do fractals? NoMust I do raids? NoMust I do map completion? NoMust I do dungeons? No...There is only one thing that is a must. You must want to play the game but what actually constitute playing the game is up to you to decide and this is why research has found that having choices makes at least some people unhappy.

@firedragon.8953 said:

@"Tazer.2157" said:The last paragraph is exactly why I made this thread. I have come across many new players wanting to try out dungeons and they cannot find groups. This is such a shame because the dungeons in GW2 are really nicely made with voice acting, a story etc. I have no idea why dungeons are just ignored. I do not think dungeons should be made solo (currently, they can be done solo if you got the gear and build), group content can be really enjoyable but incentivizing players to do dungeons would be a good way to repopulate this area.

To my understanding there are two choices when doing a dungeon (I still haven't done one yet, so I don't really know). Even if people were going to do them again for loot or rewards, I'm guessing they would choose the faster "non-story" version of the dungeon. The reason why I think the story mode should be solo-able is so that the play can continue to enjoy the story. The personal story can be done alone, but the dungeons can't. In the personal story you really don't know much about Destiny's Edge, and they are with you at the end of the story, but they seem very "side-lined" that I really didn't care too much about who they were. From a story telling perspective, allowing a player the ability to access the dungeons when they become available would be great in my opinion.

The reason people will choose the non-story dungeon regardless is because the story paths have always had worse rewards. In particular they don't give any dungeon token(except maybe a tiny amount from some enemies in some dungeons).

I also wouldn't mind getting rewarded with a recipe to craft a "Masterwork" version of the Royal Ascalonian Weapons (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Royal_Ascalonian_weapons). They look cool enough to entice people to craft to get the skins and make sense to receive from Ascalonian Dungeons. It may compete with other reward tracks though because I'm not so sure how this could potentially devalue the exotic versions of these weapons.

People only really care about the skin. Except maybe for the hardcore roleplayers, most aren't going to care if it is via crafting or drops or buying from the dungeon vendor.

Also, dungeons and even the higher level content somehow seems a little intimidating because there is almost too much to do. I think letting players understand what dungeons are beforehand at their own pace seems nice and would maybe spark an interest in doing the "explorable" version of the dungeons with friends later on. How I see it now, it just creates additional holes in the personal story and leaves newer players in a weird type of limbo where they are unable to access content they are deliberately told to go check out.

The lack of people doing dungeons is directly related to their rewards being lacking. Also a bunch of dungeons still have bugs that are old as dirt. When thinking about rewards it has to be from the perspective of something that can endure. Skins can get people in the door but they won't keep people around. There has to be a reason to stay around once you have unlocked everything. Timegating can delay things but that is still temporary.

@"Leablo.2651" said:After they moved all the story quests to 10 level increments with no pointers to where you should go in between, the journey feels completely aimless.

Interesting. They changed the interval?

With the experience of a new player fresh in my mind, I definitely didn't feel like my journey was aimless. Maybe that's kind of what I expected from an open world game though. I liked making my own aims. I'm going to get this map to 100% was a common one, usually followed by, "I wonder if I can get up here". I guess I really just like the exploration element of this game and why I play it over more over more "guided" games. I don't feel like I have to do anything, but I always have something to do.

They didn't change the interval so much as putting one in. There used to be no restriction. You could do the level 10 story at lv2 or try to. Some people did try. Some people got pounded into the ground by the NPCs and became not very happy with ANet for giving them the freedom to get themselves into that situation. Alternatively the story step could have pointed to a map that is higher level. This can get especially tricky for maps with wide level range and multiple entrances.

An alternative is to have each story step reward enough exp to get you to the next required level(level requirements needs to be kept since they can send you to maps of higher level) and provide some gear at some intervals. As part of providing the gear they could even provide some information and suggestions(via templates?) on builds. This would provide a pretty simple and straightforward way to level and gear your character. Other options could be explored on later characters or just later.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@firedragon.8953 said:Interesting. They changed the interval?

With the experience of a new player fresh in my mind, I definitely didn't feel like my journey was aimless. Maybe that's kind of what I expected from an open world game though. I liked making my own aims. I'm going to get this map to 100% was a common one, usually followed by, "I wonder if I can get up here". I guess I really just like the exploration element of this game and why I play it over more over more "guided" games. I don't feel like I have to do anything, but I always have something to do.

It's mostly at the start of the game that this is an "issue". Once you finish the tutorial instance, you cannot progress the story, instead, you go around helping random people for a while until you reach level 10. The rest of the story being every 10 levels instead of 2 isn't as bad in my opinion, in fact I prefer the new version, you can play the story in one go, instead of splitting it in several pieces. It's only that first story that requires reaching level 10 that is a bit questionable, although not a big deal by any means.

There is a presentation issue. Instead of having some sort of message in the story tracker saying "next story step available at level X" it is just empty.

@Taril.8619 said:

@"Tazer.2157" said:Also if they do have access to the tp is it really better gameplay to have new players skip majority of the game systems and have them buy items directly off the tp?

Given that buying stuff off the TP is literally the best way to obtain items, yes.

Even the crafting system itself is set up in a way with the expectation that not everyone will craft.I did the whole level my crafting along with my character thing. I also tried to do the "use the things I crafted" approach. However despite crafting with only 3 characters and gearing 8(this was waaaay before there was even a hint rev, in fact this was before ascended gear even existed), I was still left with excess items. What are you going to do with those extras? Sell them to people who do not want to do crafting. This worked better back in the day since the price difference between crafted and dropped gear wasn't so huge.

It was only with the introduction of ascended weapons and armor that made crafting somewhat inevitable but with strikes we can move it back to "mostly optional, required for some stats".

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@Tazer.2157 said:The system of getting gear from karma merchants is lazy. It does not introduce you to the systems in game, it only encourages karma grind.

Karma grind? You mean, interacting with systems in the game that provide karma? Such as doing daily achievements (For Central Tyria and LW maps), doing Fractals, doing Raids or engaging in content inside a LW map that offers Karmic Retribution?

As opposed to what? Crafting? Which is, go to a website, find out what you need to craft then go stand in a town pushing the "Craft" button over and over until you have enough skill to push a button that says "Here, have the item you actually care about"?

Unless you're trying to argue that the obtaining of materials (Through, running around using gathering tools for ore/lumber/plants or for trophies, sitting in the middle of a bunch of trash enemies farming them for hours on end) is more "Interactive"?

@Tazer.2157 said:The point I am making is not "ways to get gear" it is about creating more engaging gameplay.

Which would require a complete and total overhaul of the games crafting system to actually be engaging gamplay, before your suggestion of increasing the focus on crafting would actually make any sort of improvement to gameplay engagement.

The way the game itself is structured, it's all about finding what you as an individual finds engaging. If new players come in, try out the games systems (Leveling up, doing some map completions, dabbling in some crafting, maybe do a dungeon, some WvW and a bit of PvP) and doesn't like it, well it's possible that the game just isn't for them. Not everyone will like the same things.

If it's a case of new players simply aren't trying certain activities, then by all means, implement some more pointers to alert players of these activities as well as maybe improving the reward for some currently pretty barren activities (Such as Story Dungeons. Something as simple as a Daily Story Dungeon achivement reward could be enough to populate these)

But don't force anyone into a particular activity. That's not how you retain new players, that's how you get new players to leave when they're forced to do stuff they don't like. It's one of the reasons why PvP in this game auto-levels you to 80 and lets you pick up whatever gear you want from the vendor, so that PvP fans, don't have to wade through 80 levels of PvE and then grind PvE content to get the gear they need to do PvP.

Which is honestly, one of the best core systems for PvP in any MMO ever. It allows anyone to participate and be on an equal footing to everyone else (As opposed to something like WoW where due to how grindy gear acquisition is, especially for current season stuff that is futher locked behind weekly caps, it means that unless you start PvPing literally the first available point in the expansion, you'll forever be behind on gear)

@Tazer.2157 said:On the contrary exploration is not encouraged in the game. Why? Because it is more efficient to go directly to a lvl 80 zone like Orr, wait for a farming train, join up, get the drops, sell them on tp, and repeat.

Uhh... Not really.

Exploration literally is encouraged in the game. That's why you get rewards for map completions. That's why the content guide will literally point you towards exploring the current map if there's not an event nearby and you aren't tracking a story quest. In fact, with the Elite Specializations, they have also come with collections for their weapons in which one of the points is "Get a map completion in [Current Expansion Zone] as X Class" which ends up with you obtaining an Ascended quality weapon.

@Tazer.2157 said:Is doing hearts really fun? If they are fun why were they removed in the expansions? The expansions barely have hearts. Players complain about heart completion. Why is making heart completion mandatory a good thing?

Hearts can be fun. It's like questing. Only, not mandatory.

Hearts removed from expansions? PoF is full of hearts. In fact, mount acquisition is tied to completing hearts. Then of course the LW maps have REPEATABLE HEARTS. Meaning every day, it gets reset and you can do the heart again for more rewards (Also, to access the vendor again)

Making heart completion mandatory isn't a good thing. Making anything mandatory isn't a good thing. Luckily, at the moment, nothing in GW2 is mandatory.

@Tazer.2157 said:I wish the game would show us the various ways we can play it. That is what I am asking for. By making daily dungeons, daily crafting achievements, it shows new players different ways to approach the game other than karma merchants and the tp.

For the most part, it does.

At around level 5-6, every character working through their starter zone winds up at a town/camp that is full of crafters where they can learn to craft. Characters also get given a set of gathering tools as a level up reward.

Every 10 levels, you get a mail sent to you telling you about a new dungeon.

The content guide will literally point you towards events that are happening. With some things like World Bosses and Bloodstone Crazed monsters being announced zone wide with a zone wide marker on the minimap.

WvW gets announced as a level up reward at level 31 (60 for F2P accounts)

There's an entire line of Mastery points dedicated to crafting Legendaries and running Fractals.

Raids get announced if you go near an entrance portal (I think they're also mentioned upon hitting level 80 too)

What content isn't shown to players?

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