Downstate has got to go!

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@Nimrod.9240 said:

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:

@"Sylosi.6503" said:Downstate ups the skill cap by adding a layer of teamwork, awareness, decision making, etc to a game where the combat is frankly not particularly skilled, damage application especially is faceroll, even more so on certain classes. (an "action" combat game that aims for you, LOL)

Which is why more skilled players tend to manage downstate better than less skilled ones., such as back when this game had "e-sports" you could see the handful of teams that were actually good, generally handled downstate better than the other PvP teams, let alone bad WvW players.

It adds so much skill cap that no other competitive game has it. Imagine any moba/fps or whatever game with downstate. LMAONot to mention that they are grossly unbalanced between classes. Its a mechanic to carry noobs who technically died. Theres no skill cap involved. And it gets even worse when you do 1vX down someone but u cant just go on the second dude cuz you have stomp the dude that should be dead in the first place while somehow hes still being able to attack you for hefty amount of damage

The general rule is you died = you gtfo to spawn in any semi competent game. And i dont think theres any other game with downstate anyway apart from gw2.

Just from the top of my head, Apex Legends (has 2 diffrent Types of Downstate) and Call of Duty Warzone (has 3 diffrent Types of Downstate).

Which are not the same as an MMO.

In your examples, you are talking FPS games that can have one shot kills in a mode that once you are defeated you are out for the remainder of the game. While in GW2 you keep respawning until the match is over or forever in WvW. You can also be revived from defeated by just pressing F, while in Apex, you have a timer on the banner that you have to either clear the other team before getting, or be super fast and sneaky to recover the banner before the timer expires (and many people camp them). Even still, that doesn't revive the person, you then have to go to well marked respawn points, and stand out in the open with a cast time, which then lets everyone know you are respawning someone, who is coming back into the game without gear and has to jump out of the plane in full view of everyone around to take free shots at. Also, downs in Apex have no skills, utility or self revive outside of gold shield unlike GW2, so your team has to win or push off the other team to get the revive, and revive is static across the board, and you can't stick a revive in Apex while being pushed, you would die, while in GW2 it is not just possible, but common for people to revive while being cleaved, not including special skills or traits that can almost instant revive a downed player, killing someone from the other team that your downed teammate might have hit also does not result in them rallying in Apex either, because that is just a snowball effect which has no place in competitive.

If you want to change downstate to Apex style, in that DS has no skills, no self revive, no rally and requires a teammate to get you up and revive speed is static across all classes etc etc, I would welcome it with open arms. Come to think of it, Apex is actually very close to the idea I would like to see if DS isn't removed.

Side note but worth mentioning, I don't really mind DS in PvP, teams are forced even numbers, and while it might keep you from winning a 1vs2 its not like WvW. Though I would not mind it being removed either. WvW however, 100% remove, it's a snowballing effect and makes stacking servers the most effective tactic in the game, not skill.

[ollbirtan.2915]

Absolutely NO. Down-state is NOT a clutch - it's available to ALL classes, so I would suggest to l2p. The only thing that may need some adjustment is the dps in down state (necros) and pet revival speed (ranger).

[Swagg.9236]

"Reviving players is part of the game" is not really an argument against whether or not it is a good dynamic for gameplay. People make bad decisions within games. People make bad games outright. You can't just say that something is inherently justified due to its intrinsic relationship to another thing.

If anything, the downed state is cancer because it can trap people into longer respawns. It can turn fights on their head through behavior that is, by definition, not actively confronting an opponent in the fight. Moreover, the fact that people can still take rather powerful actions during downstate means that they can still have an inordinate impact on on-going combat despite the fact that a player should generally be punished for dying in a game like this. On top of all of this, rez sig was fine. GW2 is basically an exercise in iteration for iteration's sake without really thinking at all about why its predecessor's foundations worked so well.

[Alaya.8765]

I already mentioned it above but downstate by itself is fine and we will not get rid of it either way.

The biggest problem is that there is no Downed penalty in PvP.You often down people and they get simply rezzed and then healed to full.And what do you get out of it?You have skills on cooldown and the downed person had skills recharge while downed ...

If we would have the Downed penalty from PVE or even a different one it would feel a lot better overall I assume.

Also the other 2 problems were mentioned a lot already so I won't flesh them out again.

1. Rally a whole team with one kill
2. Downed Abilities being totally unbalanced

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Gw2 community complains constantly about all the carry mechanics in the game but at same time doesn't want to lose the carry mechanics they themselves use.Gw2 will always be carrywars 2 cuz in the end it's what the community really wants.

[apharma.3741]

The idea of downstate is so that players, especially at the low end, actually have a chance when they get rushed by the enemy and spiked out. It also adds a choice to the tactics of the fight, rez or not, bleed or not and in the beginning of the game you had to actively cleave a downed person and poison them to prevent a rez in out numbered fights and you can use downstate to bait people into a position that's compromising.

Put simply it creates a wealth of dynamics and choices for players to plan and think about rather than "enemies die brr brr." snow owl sounds

[Abelisk.5148]

Downstate needs some penalty. I find it asinine how that necro we downed 3 times keeps rallying off of a noob's mistake (plus they have a high health pool) and that rez power is FASTER than outdamage potential.

You really expect most people to stomp a body in teamfights with rampant crowd control and gimmicks?

Just add a NO rally penalty debuff upon first downed. You cannot be rallied upon second down. On third down you die. Problem solved ladies and gentlemen.

[crepuscular.9047]

@"Alaya.8765" said:They do not even have to remove the Downstate. It would already improve the whole experience a ton if we could get Downed penalty in PvP.

I agree with down state doesnt have to be removed, but the rally mechanic needs to be disabled in PvP

players should need to spend time off combat to try to resuscitate team mate, creates a mental decision "do i try to rescue my downed team mate at the risk of being cut down, or do i try to remove the treat first and hope my team mate can hold on to life til then?" *looks at the Raven Sanctum*

and I have raised this before in another thread, the rally mechanic benefits the team that have better dps composition, or in general a handicap to the worser team

 

 

i remember i was in a match ones where we spent like 5mins on bell, because both side just kept on rallying

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:Downstate needs some penalty. I find it asinine how that necro we downed 3 times keeps rallying off of a noob's mistake (plus they have a high health pool) and that rez power is FASTER than outdamage potential.

You really expect most people to stomp a body in teamfights with rampant crowd control and gimmicks?

Just add a NO rally penalty debuff upon first downed. You cannot be rallied upon second down. On third down you die. Problem solved ladies and gentlemen.

add in global reduction in revive speed by 10-15% and im sold.Or maybe add in 2s delay before you can attempt revive after being interrupted

[Dark Red Killian.3946]

Downstates in my opinion don’t need to go, but they seriously need rebalanced. I’ve played an engineer forever, and if I am down, I am pretty much done. I’ve pretty much nailed down how to hold out in down state for a little bit before someone can rez me, but if no one else is there, I am done. However, it I go and down a mesmer, it’s clone yourself, condi the crap out of your attacker, down them, kill them, rev yourself. Rangers can even call pet to help rez. Engineer is pretty useless in downed state, especially againsts a stomper.

[ILoveMonotony.1479]

Downed state absolutely has to stay. It adds flavor and a mini game to the actual game. It forces players to make use of a combination of cleave, CC, Poison, corpse play (some CC allows you to launch downed players) and safe stomping (teleport, invulnerabily block, blind, stealth, etc.) to win a team fight. It rewards the player for saving that essential cool down for the stomp. It rewards your team for actually working together to secure the kill. That's exactly what a 5v5 team play oriented game should do: make players work together and reward them for their efforts.

That said, the rally mechanic and revive abilities are two different topics. Whether they need adjusting or not is already being discussed in other threads.

[charles.6809]

Downstate is absolutly fine, wtf is wrong with you, it's part of the basic mechanism of this game

[Luthan.5236]

Now 3 vs. 3 actually would be a good thing to test changes to downstate. (Too bad they now recduce the mini season time to 2 week so. Having it longer but with bigger changes ... would be fun.)

In another thread someone suggested to give huges nerfs to healing (rezzing) and stuff - while downed. Imo rallying is the biggest problem - in 5 vs. 5. (In 3 vs. 3 this might even be fun with 1 downed guy, 1 trying to protect him from stompers while doing damage to them and the third guy rezzing or trying to help kill 1 enemy to help the downed guy rallying.)

Actually ... nerfing healing but also bleeding out ... could be interesting as well I think. Very small bleeding out. (Either attacking or stopming almost necessary to get the kill.) No downed/rallying skill (or any other skills that increase health) for the downed guy. But ... rezzing as a cast bar thing with cast time where interrupts can make it need to get restarted. (Instead of the bigger bleed out and the rezzing restoring health bar when interrupt will still have that progress on the health ... unless a lot of attacks try to "cleave" it down.)

[JorKadeen.3846]

50% of players played builds like that after that event ... (i know that damage got nerved hard.)

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@"JorKadeen.3846" said:

50% of players played builds like that after that event ... (i know that damage got nerved hard.)

All this shows is how broken some builds anet let live on for WAY to long, and people ran this all the time, not just for no DS events. DE was popular at the time as well, as people were getting 50K one shots. That is a horrible balance problem, not a need for DS problem, you don't cover one bad game design with another.

And just like DS, there were many people on here defending those builds as a L2P issue.

What DS is really like for the bulk of WvW fights, is being a crutch for bad players who just stack numbers. Yes, yes, I am not a good player, I can hear the keys clicking now. I just got home from work and I like to have a drink to relax, so you get some random dodges etc thrown in. The point being is that I was far out playing them, but nothing can be done because of DS and second....and third chances.