Core Elementalists problem is that it is impossible to compete with the weaver and tempest lines.

[God.2708]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I don't have any specifics to fill in the blanks, but here's a basic framework for one possible way of creating advantages for core builds relative to the elite specs. Create benefits associated with each core trait line, then additional benefits for pairing trait lines.

Example:

Water/Earth Tempest gains benefits W, E, and WE while Water/Earth/Fire Core gains the same benefits plus WEF, WF, EF, and F.

Yup, I like this way of thinking of it. A lot of it was centralized around the cleansing water trait in water, the arcane line, then choosing a synergy in the arcane line. Tempest came along and did that better though. There would need to be a small re-vamp or some trait swapping to bring it about again.

@Opopanax.1803 said:To be fair, most elites are much more powerful than core only builds.

Yes, but in general ele is one of the largest and longest sufferers of core being mostly useless. Anet in their (probably misplaced) tirade of trade-offs have brought quite a few core builds back into the fold in at least one mode, sometimes more. Rev being the exception where they honestly suffer a somewhat similar problem to elementalist.

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:the main question:

why?

core is fine as it is. It does not have to deal with tempests really long cooldowns or weavers clunky mechanics. It can use three useful traitlines and does not have to worry about all the kitten in tempest/weaver lines.

Core is fine. You can run water/fire/arcane and be a sustain monster. You can run fire/air/earth and be a power/condi monster. You can run water/earth/arcane and be a total bunker. Really. What is you problem?

The problem is that all three ele specs, for all the clunky mechanics and keyboard piano DO NEITHER ENOUGH DAMAGE NOR ENOUGH SUPPORT.

I disagree. Weaver is one of the strongest damage specs in both PvE and WvW, though lack of additional team support steers it away from the go to 'meta', on top of having some presence in PvP. Likewise Tempest performs admirably in all three modes with a swath of builds. Core? Nowhere to be found. Anywhere you would apply a core build you can drop one of the traitlines for weaver or tempest and simply do what you were trying to do better.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@God.2708 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I don't have any specifics to fill in the blanks, but here's a basic framework for one possible way of creating advantages for core builds relative to the elite specs. Create benefits associated with each core trait line, then additional benefits for pairing trait lines.

Example:

Water/Earth Tempest gains benefits W, E, and WE while Water/Earth/Fire Core gains the same benefits plus WEF, WF, EF, and F.

Yup, I like this way of thinking of it. A lot of it was centralized around the cleansing water trait in water, the arcane line, then choosing a synergy in the arcane line. Tempest came along and did that better though. There would need to be a small re-vamp or some trait swapping to bring it about again.

@Opopanax.1803 said:To be fair, most elites are much more powerful than core only builds.

Yes, but in general ele is one of the largest and longest sufferers of core being mostly useless. Anet in their (probably misplaced) tirade of trade-offs have brought quite a few core builds back into the fold in at least one mode, sometimes more. Rev being the exception where they honestly suffer a somewhat similar problem to elementalist.

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:the main question:

why?

core is fine as it is. It does not have to deal with tempests really long cooldowns or weavers clunky mechanics. It can use three useful traitlines and does not have to worry about all the kitten in tempest/weaver lines.

Core is fine. You can run water/fire/arcane and be a sustain monster. You can run fire/air/earth and be a power/condi monster. You can run water/earth/arcane and be a total bunker. Really. What is you problem?

The problem is that all three ele specs, for all the clunky mechanics and keyboard piano DO NEITHER ENOUGH DAMAGE NOR ENOUGH SUPPORT.

I disagree. Weaver is one of the strongest damage specs in both PvE and WvW, though lack of additional team support steers it away from the go to 'meta', on top of having some presence in PvP. Likewise Tempest performs admirably in all three modes with a swath of builds. Core? Nowhere to be found. Anywhere you would apply a core build you can drop one of the traitlines for weaver or tempest and simply do what you were trying to do better.Disagree with you in some of this.

Rev core treatment is just what ele core needs. The two specs it has are already fairly well balanced. Nerf them anymore to make a trade off and you make them useless completely. Adding to core is realistically the only way to avoid this. If you change core traits around you also risk the synergy with the elite traits.

Weaver does have the damage spec title, but does not have enough support. You play weaver in a wvw Zerg and you will be asked quickly to change to Tempest; Tempest being the superior support.

Personally, I like dual daggers but hate it on weaver. Core is better here then because Tempest does not have as many potential damage modifiers. However, I don’t like the “plainness” core offers. So I play with Tempest. Adding a functionality to core would help here once again.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@God.2708 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I don't have any specifics to fill in the blanks, but here's a basic framework for one possible way of creating advantages for core builds relative to the elite specs. Create benefits associated with each core trait line, then additional benefits for pairing trait lines.

Example:

Water/Earth Tempest gains benefits W, E, and WE while Water/Earth/Fire Core gains the same benefits plus WEF, WF, EF, and F.

Yup, I like this way of thinking of it. A lot of it was centralized around the cleansing water trait in water, the arcane line, then choosing a synergy in the arcane line. Tempest came along and did that better though. There would need to be a small re-vamp or some trait swapping to bring it about again.

@Opopanax.1803 said:To be fair, most elites are much more powerful than core only builds.

Yes, but in general ele is one of the largest and longest sufferers of core being mostly useless. Anet in their (probably misplaced) tirade of trade-offs have brought quite a few core builds back into the fold in at least one mode, sometimes more. Rev being the exception where they honestly suffer a somewhat similar problem to elementalist.

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:the main question:

why?

core is fine as it is. It does not have to deal with tempests really long cooldowns or weavers clunky mechanics. It can use three useful traitlines and does not have to worry about all the kitten in tempest/weaver lines.

Core is fine. You can run water/fire/arcane and be a sustain monster. You can run fire/air/earth and be a power/condi monster. You can run water/earth/arcane and be a total bunker. Really. What is you problem?

The problem is that all three ele specs, for all the clunky mechanics and keyboard piano DO NEITHER ENOUGH DAMAGE NOR ENOUGH SUPPORT.

I disagree. Weaver is one of the strongest damage specs in both PvE and WvW, though lack of additional team support steers it away from the go to 'meta', on top of having some presence in PvP. Likewise Tempest performs admirably in all three modes with a swath of builds. Core? Nowhere to be found. Anywhere you would apply a core build you can drop one of the traitlines for weaver or tempest and simply do what you were trying to do better.

yeah, weaver is still present in pug blobs and some roamers run it. Guilds dropped it already or are planning to drop it. Because scrapper, burnguards, revs are just better at it. Tempest is either cleanse+heal bot or cleanse+cc bot.

[Jski.6180]

Core for sure is lacking in effect it use to be the field aura class but as they added in more effects for other class as well as ele elite spec them self you saw all of its effect taken away of use.If f5 the only thing that in-between an core vs and elite spec then maybe adding in a field f5 AND a stronger combo finnish for these fields.

Right now core ele is mostly a week weaver as for tempest it only very just so with a bit more support and 4 more skills that have massive draw backs for use.

[Stallic.2397]

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:Add swiftness + regen boons to Water minor traits and add protection boon to Earth minor traits.Then we won't all be forced to run arcane or weird builds that make up for the lack of boons. And it might actually be worth running water or earth again.

It's crazy how strong the boons of Arcane are. I've tried core aura builds with Earth. Either you get 2sec of prot from aura's (Elemental Shielding) or 5.5 sec of prot from just attuning to Earth (Elemental Attunement). Not to mention another 4.5 of prot every time you stun while in Earth, which is very easy to pull of with good timing. And just like that, Earth Traitline is swapped with Arcane instead.

Regen on Water Attunement (Elemental Attunement) is nearly the same as soothing mist minor trait. The boons in Arcane are insane. If not a flat out boon increase to Earth and Water traitlines, then more benefits need to be added; otherwise, Arcane will always be the better choice.

[God.2708]

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:Disagree with you in some of this.

Rev core treatment is just what ele core needs. The two specs it has are already fairly well balanced. Nerf them anymore to make a trade off and you make them useless completely. Adding to core is realistically the only way to avoid this. If you change core traits around you also risk the synergy with the elite traits.

Weaver does have the damage spec title, but does not have enough support. You play weaver in a wvw Zerg and you will be asked quickly to change to Tempest; Tempest being the superior support.

Personally, I like dual daggers but hate it on weaver. Core is better here then because Tempest does not have as many potential damage modifiers. However, I don’t like the “plainness” core offers. So I play with Tempest. Adding a functionality to core would help here once again.

I mean you say this, but how many core rev builds do you see floating around? It lacks cohesive trait support and the herald and renegade lines act as stronger fillers than any of the other lines do in a somewhat similar but slightly different way to what elementalist has troubles with trait wise. Adding new features to core won't do anything unless they are so out of line that it ends up making weaver and/or tempest a non-choice instead.

@Stallic.2397 said:

It's crazy how strong the boons of Arcane are. I've tried core aura builds with Earth. Either you get 2sec of prot from aura's (Elemental Shielding) or 5.5 sec of prot from just attuning to Earth (Elemental Attunement). Not to mention another 4.5 of prot every time you stun while in Earth, which is very easy to pull of with good timing. And just like that, Earth Traitline is swapped with Arcane instead.

Regen on Water Attunement (Elemental Attunement) is nearly the same as soothing mist minor trait. The boons in Arcane are insane. If not a flat out boon increase to Earth and Water traitlines, then more benefits need to be added; otherwise, Arcane will always be the better choice.

That could be an interesting way to go about it, if you add things like the weavers and tempests boon effectiveness increases into arcane, then improve the boon output of the respective elemental lines. If you want superior regen + protection you'd need to go water, earth, arcane, which shuts tempest/weaver out from it, but they could choose a singular one if they wanted and try to utilize others via runes or something. This is all looking at it from a solo angle though, if you have teammates that could lead to the arcane line being extraordinarily overpowered.

[Strider.7849]

As experience has shown, you probably won't get core brought up (especially since making another line even stronger won't solve the issue as it's just more options for weaver and tempest). Instead, what you are indirectly asking for is a nerf to weaver and tempest.

I believe what they'll most likely do is nerf the damage multipliers on weaver (since it's utility over core makes it strong (i.e. pulsing aoe damage, extra evades, etc) and add some sort of trade off to tempest that will ultimately cripple it into a PvE only spec. There are functional builds on core (s/d FA, d/d arcane) that some other classes don't have.

I'm not saying this to disagree with you, but it's more of a "becareful what you wish for" sort of thing. I pretty much exclusively play only ele now after the heavy nerfs to ranger all around. I'm writing this as a "don't take what little enjoyment I have left in this game, away".

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@God.2708 said:

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:Disagree with you in some of this.

Rev core treatment is just what ele core needs. The two specs it has are already fairly well balanced. Nerf them anymore to make a trade off and you make them useless completely. Adding to core is realistically the only way to avoid this. If you change core traits around you also risk the synergy with the elite traits.

Weaver does have the damage spec title, but does not have enough support. You play weaver in a wvw Zerg and you will be asked quickly to change to Tempest; Tempest being the superior support.

Personally, I like dual daggers but hate it on weaver. Core is better here then because Tempest does not have as many potential damage modifiers. However, I don’t like the “plainness” core offers. So I play with Tempest. Adding a functionality to core would help here once again.

I mean you say this, but how many core rev builds do you see floating around? It lacks cohesive trait support and the herald and renegade lines act as stronger fillers than any of the other lines do in a somewhat similar but slightly different way to what elementalist has troubles with trait wise. Adding new features to core won't do anything unless they are so out of line that it ends up making weaver and/or tempest a non-choice instead.

@Stallic.2397 said:

It's crazy how strong the boons of Arcane are. I've tried core aura builds with Earth. Either you get 2sec of prot from aura's (Elemental Shielding) or 5.5 sec of prot from just attuning to Earth (Elemental Attunement). Not to mention another 4.5 of prot every time you stun while in Earth, which is very easy to pull of with good timing. And just like that, Earth Traitline is swapped with Arcane instead.

Regen on Water Attunement (Elemental Attunement) is nearly the same as soothing mist minor trait. The boons in Arcane are insane. If not a flat out boon increase to Earth and Water traitlines, then more benefits need to be added; otherwise, Arcane will always be the better choice.

That could be an interesting way to go about it, if you add things like the weavers and tempests boon effectiveness increases into arcane, then improve the boon output of the respective elemental lines. If you want superior regen + protection you'd need to go water, earth, arcane, which shuts tempest/weaver out from it, but they could choose a singular one if they wanted and try to utilize others via runes or something. This is all looking at it from a solo angle though, if you have teammates that could lead to the arcane line being extraordinarily overpowered.

Going to have to agree to disagree with you, especially on the trait comments. Why do you think there isn’t trait cohesion?

[God.2708]

@Strider.7849 said:As experience has shown, you probably won't get core brought up (especially since making another line even stronger won't solve the issue as it's just more options for weaver and tempest). Instead, what you are indirectly asking for is a nerf to weaver and tempest....

It happened to necro. They keep trying to do it to guard to varying levels of success. Ranger unfortunately went the route of nerfs, but IMO was a needed direction the nerfs were just the wrong sort to maintain the elite specs 'fun-ness'.

I could buy into a possible tempest nerf, the extended attunement CD for overloading isn't really a consequence per se like the weaver's inability to quick access 3-4-5 is, but Anets trend on spec nerfs is indeed bad. IMO a clean proper rework of something like arcane line that synergizes with core lines but doesn't add much to elite specs could do the same thing though without needing to add funny features or nerfing tempest.

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Going to have to agree to disagree with you, especially on the trait comments. Why do you think there isn’t trait cohesion?

Rev traits, or Elementalist? Elementalist traits are pretty cohesive, but in matters that count (Support, Damage increases) tempest and weaver out do the core traits as argued in the OP. Revenant traits have two trait lines almost entirely dedicated to specific legends that makes them half useless if you don't take said legend (Though corruptions change somewhat alleviated that, still hampered by lack of a secondary condi weapon for core). It would be like if elementalist had to pick two attunements then you took the air line without having access to the air attunement. You can't cohesively mix and match traits, basically every build is [Relevant Legend Trait], [invocation], [Elite Spec].

The major difference is mostly in weapon skill choices. Elementalist traits are more cohesive since every build has access to every element so power traits still help earth attunement abilities even though they are mostly bad at dealing power damage, for example. Revenant weapons AND utilties are shoehorned by design which makes them very inflexible.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@God.2708 said:

@Strider.7849 said:As experience has shown, you probably won't get core brought up (especially since making another line even stronger won't solve the issue as it's just more options for weaver and tempest). Instead, what you are indirectly asking for is a nerf to weaver and tempest....

It happened to necro. They keep trying to do it to guard to varying levels of success. Ranger unfortunately went the route of nerfs, but IMO was a needed direction the nerfs were just the wrong sort to maintain the elite specs 'fun-ness'.

I could buy into a possible tempest nerf, the extended attunement CD for overloading isn't really a consequence per se like the weaver's inability to quick access 3-4-5 is, but Anets trend on spec nerfs is indeed bad. IMO a clean proper rework of something like arcane line that synergizes with core lines but doesn't add much to elite specs could do the same thing though without needing to add funny features or nerfing tempest.

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Going to have to agree to disagree with you, especially on the trait comments. Why do you think there isn’t trait cohesion?

Rev traits, or Elementalist? Elementalist traits are pretty cohesive, but in matters that count (Support, Damage increases) tempest and weaver out do the core traits as argued in the OP. Revenant traits have two trait lines almost entirely dedicated to specific legends that makes them half useless if you don't take said legend (Though corruptions change somewhat alleviated that, still hampered by lack of a secondary condi weapon for core). It would be like if elementalist had to pick two attunements then you took the air line without having access to the air attunement. You can't cohesively mix and match traits, basically every build is [Relevant Legend Trait], [invocation], [Elite Spec].

The major difference is mostly in weapon skill choices. Elementalist traits are more cohesive since every build has access to every element so power traits still help earth attunement abilities even though they are mostly bad at dealing power damage, for example. Revenant weapons AND utilties are shoehorned by design which makes them very inflexible.

On ele, Core traits are better for dps than tempest. You are right about weaver though, but that’s supposed to be the dps traitline. It’s problem is the clunkiness of dual attunements. Tempest is the support line, so sure it is going to out perform Core and Weaver in that role. Where does that leave Core? Somewhere in the middle. So, once again, I go back to adding functionality to Core.

On Rev, which two trait lines are you referring to? Salvation and what else? I don’t see the non cohesiveness. Personally, the build I run doesn’t even use invocation, but I do use Kalla, only for the Shortbow however. I’d rather run Core, but it doesn’t have Shortbow. That to me is what the problem is: Not enough Core weapon choices, like you mentioned.

[Jski.6180]

@Stallic.2397 said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:Add swiftness + regen boons to Water minor traits and add protection boon to Earth minor traits.Then we won't all be forced to run arcane or weird builds that make up for the lack of boons. And it might actually be worth running water or earth again.

It's crazy how strong the boons of Arcane are. I've tried core aura builds with Earth. Either you get 2sec of prot from aura's (Elemental Shielding) or 5.5 sec of prot from just attuning to Earth (Elemental Attunement). Not to mention another 4.5 of prot every time you stun while in Earth, which is very easy to pull of with good timing. And just like that, Earth Traitline is swapped with Arcane instead.

Regen on Water Attunement (Elemental Attunement) is nearly the same as soothing mist minor trait. The boons in Arcane are insane. If not a flat out boon increase to Earth and Water traitlines, then more benefits need to be added; otherwise, Arcane will always be the better choice.

Just wanted to point out only comparing to eles other boons would you call arcane boons crazy strong. If you compare them to any other class in the game ele and arcane boons are the weakest in the game.

The best roll for core ele is its old field game play letting it fill the in-between roll. The countless nerfs to healing and dmg effects that where aimed for tempest and weaver hit core ele to often for it to fill that in-between roll. To fix this you would have to nerf tempest healing and weaver dps at the same time buffing core effects healing base and dmg base effects.

You can some what do this with an F5 combo field game play where you both get healing and dmg effects from putting them down and comboing them your self but they need to be much stronger then what we have now.This is why i suggest add in an earth field that only core ele can use with its F5 (as well as it getting an air fire water field from the F5) and getting stronger combo finnisher effect with these fields from both the core ele AND any one who combos in the "ele" field.

Or better yet we could add in Off fields though this F5 (earth, wind, lava, mist) that have the old fields effects and added effects. Earth blast would be protection and barrier, leap would be earth aura and immobilizes, projectile would be bleed and cripal as well as whirl. Wind blast would be swiftness and super speed, leap would be lighting aura and stun, projectile would be vuniabitly and "shock" added dmg hits as well as whirl. Lava blast would be might and condi clear, leap fire aura and weekends, projectile burning and blind as well as whirl . Mist blast would be a heal and reg, leap heal and frost aura (i would love a water aura but that maybe asking too much), projectile reg and chill as well as whirl.

[God.2708]

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

On ele, Core traits are better for dps than tempest. You are right about weaver though, but that’s supposed to be the dps traitline. It’s problem is the clunkiness of dual attunements. Tempest is the support line, so sure it is going to out perform Core and Weaver in that role. Where does that leave Core? Somewhere in the middle. So, once again, I go back to adding functionality to Core.

On Rev, which two trait lines are you referring to? Salvation and what else? I don’t see the non cohesiveness. Personally, the build I run doesn’t even use invocation, but I do use Kalla, only for the Shortbow however. I’d rather run Core, but it doesn’t have Shortbow. That to me is what the problem is: Not enough Core weapon choices, like you mentioned.

Salvation and Corruption. Corruption got changed recently so it's better, but because of it's focus you gain basically nothing from trying to do say... corruption with a power build or support build. Compare that to something like radiance in guardian or fire in elementalist where there are options you'd still try to pursue in different build types.

You aren't wrong per se, but I'd argue that's a paradigm Anet needs to shift. There's realistically only two things in the game and they are introducing another elite spec (hopefully) with the expansion, so what is that going to do? Out support tempest and make it obsolete? I'm trying to steer clear of theorycrafting planning and focusing more on clearly identifying the problem, but the issue I see is that core can't compete with tempest or weaver on those fronts (because of themes) so they need to clarify the themes into more subgroups and give core access to one in a way the elites can't utilize. It's honestly already at the threshhold with condi damage, earth just needs to not be hot garbage and there needs to be some small improvements to core weapons condi wise.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@God.2708 said:

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

On ele, Core traits are better for dps than tempest. You are right about weaver though, but that’s supposed to be the dps traitline. It’s problem is the clunkiness of dual attunements. Tempest is the support line, so sure it is going to out perform Core and Weaver in that role. Where does that leave Core? Somewhere in the middle. So, once again, I go back to adding functionality to Core.

On Rev, which two trait lines are you referring to? Salvation and what else? I don’t see the non cohesiveness. Personally, the build I run doesn’t even use invocation, but I do use Kalla, only for the Shortbow however. I’d rather run Core, but it doesn’t have Shortbow. That to me is what the problem is: Not enough Core weapon choices, like you mentioned.

Salvation and Corruption. Corruption got changed recently so it's better, but because of it's focus you gain basically nothing from trying to do say... corruption with a power build or support build. Compare that to something like radiance in guardian or fire in elementalist where there are options you'd still try to pursue in different build types.

You aren't wrong per se, but I'd argue that's a paradigm Anet needs to shift. There's realistically only two things in the game and they are introducing another elite spec (hopefully) with the expansion, so what is that going to do? Out support tempest and make it obsolete? I'm trying to steer clear of theorycrafting planning and focusing more on clearly identifying the problem, but the issue I see is that core can't compete with tempest or weaver on those fronts (because of themes) so they need to clarify the themes into more subgroups and give core access to one in a way the elites can't utilize. It's honestly already at the threshhold with condi damage, earth just needs to not be hot garbage and there needs to be some small improvements to core weapons condi wise.

Lol, given Anet’s track record thus far, they’ll make the new elite very OP so that you’ll want (read that as NEED) the expansion to compete. The other trait lines will become subpar.

[Jski.6180]

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

On ele, Core traits are better for dps than tempest. You are right about weaver though, but that’s supposed to be the dps traitline. It’s problem is the clunkiness of dual attunements. Tempest is the support line, so sure it is going to out perform Core and Weaver in that role. Where does that leave Core? Somewhere in the middle. So, once again, I go back to adding functionality to Core.

On Rev, which two trait lines are you referring to? Salvation and what else? I don’t see the non cohesiveness. Personally, the build I run doesn’t even use invocation, but I do use Kalla, only for the Shortbow however. I’d rather run Core, but it doesn’t have Shortbow. That to me is what the problem is: Not enough Core weapon choices, like you mentioned.

Salvation and Corruption. Corruption got changed recently so it's better, but because of it's focus you gain basically nothing from trying to do say... corruption with a power build or support build. Compare that to something like radiance in guardian or fire in elementalist where there are options you'd still try to pursue in different build types.

You aren't wrong per se, but I'd argue that's a paradigm Anet needs to shift. There's realistically only two things in the game and they are introducing another elite spec (hopefully) with the expansion, so what is that going to do? Out support tempest and make it obsolete? I'm trying to steer clear of theorycrafting planning and focusing more on clearly identifying the problem, but the issue I see is that core can't compete with tempest or weaver on those fronts (because of themes) so they need to clarify the themes into more subgroups and give core access to one in a way the elites can't utilize. It's honestly already at the threshhold with condi damage, earth just needs to not be hot garbage and there needs to be some small improvements to core weapons condi wise.

Lol, given Anet’s track record thus far, they’ll make the new elite very OP so that you’ll

want

(read that as NEED) the expansion to compete. The other trait lines will become subpar.

I realty hope not Anet is soo bad at making elites for ele (tempest was remade a few times and simply ran out of time and weaver was remade comply i would love to see what the older version of these where like) the only way they make the new elite "op" vs core ele is often just to nerf the core ele.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Jski.6180 said:

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

On ele, Core traits are better for dps than tempest. You are right about weaver though, but that’s supposed to be the dps traitline. It’s problem is the clunkiness of dual attunements. Tempest is the support line, so sure it is going to out perform Core and Weaver in that role. Where does that leave Core? Somewhere in the middle. So, once again, I go back to adding functionality to Core.

On Rev, which two trait lines are you referring to? Salvation and what else? I don’t see the non cohesiveness. Personally, the build I run doesn’t even use invocation, but I do use Kalla, only for the Shortbow however. I’d rather run Core, but it doesn’t have Shortbow. That to me is what the problem is: Not enough Core weapon choices, like you mentioned.

Salvation and Corruption. Corruption got changed recently so it's better, but because of it's focus you gain basically nothing from trying to do say... corruption with a power build or support build. Compare that to something like radiance in guardian or fire in elementalist where there are options you'd still try to pursue in different build types.

You aren't wrong per se, but I'd argue that's a paradigm Anet needs to shift. There's realistically only two things in the game and they are introducing another elite spec (hopefully) with the expansion, so what is that going to do? Out support tempest and make it obsolete? I'm trying to steer clear of theorycrafting planning and focusing more on clearly identifying the problem, but the issue I see is that core can't compete with tempest or weaver on those fronts (because of themes) so they need to clarify the themes into more subgroups and give core access to one in a way the elites can't utilize. It's honestly already at the threshhold with condi damage, earth just needs to not be hot garbage and there needs to be some small improvements to core weapons condi wise.

Lol, given Anet’s track record thus far, they’ll make the new elite very OP so that you’ll

want

(read that as NEED) the expansion to compete. The other trait lines will become subpar.

I realty hope not Anet is soo bad at making elites for ele (tempest was remade a few times and simply ran out of time and weaver was remade comply

Not true, Weaver was meant to be the spec for HoT however they ran out of time and rushed on something a bit more simple hence why Tempest got warhorn instead of Sword. they did a good job on tempest considering it was rushed to be honest.

[Jski.6180]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

On ele, Core traits are better for dps than tempest. You are right about weaver though, but that’s supposed to be the dps traitline. It’s problem is the clunkiness of dual attunements. Tempest is the support line, so sure it is going to out perform Core and Weaver in that role. Where does that leave Core? Somewhere in the middle. So, once again, I go back to adding functionality to Core.

On Rev, which two trait lines are you referring to? Salvation and what else? I don’t see the non cohesiveness. Personally, the build I run doesn’t even use invocation, but I do use Kalla, only for the Shortbow however. I’d rather run Core, but it doesn’t have Shortbow. That to me is what the problem is: Not enough Core weapon choices, like you mentioned.

Salvation and Corruption. Corruption got changed recently so it's better, but because of it's focus you gain basically nothing from trying to do say... corruption with a power build or support build. Compare that to something like radiance in guardian or fire in elementalist where there are options you'd still try to pursue in different build types.

You aren't wrong per se, but I'd argue that's a paradigm Anet needs to shift. There's realistically only two things in the game and they are introducing another elite spec (hopefully) with the expansion, so what is that going to do? Out support tempest and make it obsolete? I'm trying to steer clear of theorycrafting planning and focusing more on clearly identifying the problem, but the issue I see is that core can't compete with tempest or weaver on those fronts (because of themes) so they need to clarify the themes into more subgroups and give core access to one in a way the elites can't utilize. It's honestly already at the threshhold with condi damage, earth just needs to not be hot garbage and there needs to be some small improvements to core weapons condi wise.

Lol, given Anet’s track record thus far, they’ll make the new elite very OP so that you’ll

want

(read that as NEED) the expansion to compete. The other trait lines will become subpar.

I realty hope not Anet is soo bad at making elites for ele (tempest was remade a few times and simply ran out of time and weaver was remade comply

Not true, Weaver was meant to be the spec for HoT however they ran out of time and rushed on something a bit more simple hence why Tempest got warhorn instead of Sword. they did a good job on tempest considering it was rushed to be honest.

Weaver was made once and then remade this is what happen they even talked about it when they where first talking about PoF elite spec. Tempest was a failer of a elite spec as it did not add an elite spec level of add on to the ele class. Often it was only a ele who happen to heal better.

[Luc.7569]

I'm considering now that elite spec is the 3rd line only, why not put a core trait line into the 3rd place and it gives you something like you get from elite spec.For example, i make core A/ core B/ arcane, then i get arcane mage or something like that, and it provides you ability that you get 1s alacrity when you swap attunement. :)

[steki.1478]

@Luc.7569 said:I'm considering now that elite spec is the 3rd line only, why not put a core trait line into the 3rd place and it gives you something like you get from elite spec.For example, i make core A/ core B/ arcane, then i get arcane mage or something like that, and it provides you ability that you get 1s alacrity when you swap attunement. :)

Because there would be nothing elite about elite specs.

[Yasai.3549]

They need to give Cores a special Core weapon.

Heck if they do this for all professions, we will instantly see more build variety because I know for a fact many players play a certain build only because of the weapon and synergy.

Give Core Ele a special Core Rifle or something.

[God.2708]

@Yasai.3549 said:They need to give Cores a special Core weapon.

Heck if they do this for all professions, we will instantly see more build variety because I know for a fact many players play a certain build only because of the weapon and synergy.

Give Core Ele a special Core Rifle or something.

They'd likely achieve a lot simply by making weapons not e-spec locked. Leave the traits on the e-spec so they have to take if they want the reduced cooldowns or whatever bonuses, but it felt very gimmicky, albeit I guess somewhat thematic, to lock weapons behind a traitline.

[EUmad.7645]

I don't agree with the post. Core Ele is one of the best core profession of the game . Core DD, fire, water arcana is greatly viable for wvw roaming and for spvp. Better than weaver ? Yes and no. Weaver is probably stronger for an high skilled player but it is much more complex to play , with a stronger rotation to follow . core ele d/d is really easy. Core D/D can have a good sustain , a great mobility and a decent damage and great CC. In my opinion Ele is one of the class with a better core speak in the game . It is not too weak in respect of tempest and weaver. It is really easier to play than weaver so it is easier for a middle player to win 1 vs 1 and it is different and fits different roles/gameplay from weaver and tempest. Try it and you see that it is great . I also prefer S/F freshair on core rather than on weaver. But it is a personal taste in this case .

[Stand The Wall.6987]

this is something that affects all profs. you can't have viable core with op elites, so solution is to nerf elites. now you have noodle elites that don't do what they are meant to so why the hell did I pay this money for expacs. so lets buff core. well ok but now elites can take core and become even stronger. my only idea to solve this conundrum is to give the "core elite" (i.e. for ele its arcane, for guard its virtues etc.) a bonus effect/ buff when slotted into the 3rd trait slot where you would normally put an elite. this may have been suggested already, idk but imo it may work.

[draxynnic.3719]

That's really not true. Most professions now have competitive core-only builds. This comes about through a combination of tradeoffs and, as the OP states, having three (or more!) traitlines which cross-synergise with each other such that giving any of them up for an elite traitline is a nontrivial decision. A lot of the elite specialisations are therefore now at the point where if you're not actively using what the elite specialisation brings, you're probably better off taking a third core traitline.

A lot of people still do, because the elite specialisations are flashy and impressive, but for most professions the days where slotting in an elite specialisation without thinking about how it fits with your build automatically makes you stronger are long gone.

Elementalist, however, just isn't there yet. Probably because tempest hasn't really been overperforming, so it's been a lower priority than trimming back the elite specialisations that were dominating.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

@""draxynnic.3719"

:+1:

Most of e-spec come with a "new" gameplay, a new identity. So of course it encompass the core spec to mix or improve some facets. IMO this is not the case with Elem, not as distinct.Tempest with shouts/auras ? Elem already got auras, auras were already one the major support gameplay of elem with the Water lane, there is nothing new. Worst, it shows how bad were the differents traits on auras before tempest and we lost or got nerfed some. Edit; By Major, I mean it was one of the few.Weaver : It's just dps elem but stronger, more sustainable. A bit like Soulbeast were Ranger but stronger, or daredevil to thief .... There is no real trade-off about weaver ; a 4sec CD on attunement and dual skills often stronger than core skills ... I've seen worst.

Elem lacks strong utility skills and traits able to support allies in a different way than Auras/shouts. Same for DPS, we need something to compensate the fresh-air overload from tempest (or nerf Transcendant tempest trait ) and all the skills and buffs traits from weaver ( Weaver's prowess, superior's elements, Swift Revenge, Elemental Polyphony, elements of rage ... it's A LOT for an elite spec)

! Arcane could share "stronger" boons and some buffs without to rally on auras.!! > Arcane Prowess, and Arcane restoration : for 5 players! > Renewing Stamina : should compete with Latent Stamina. Apply to 5 players vigor and alacrity , or vigor you apply effectiveness +25%, something like that.! > Final Shielding is kitten : new trait ; arcane skills (Arcane power + the arcane healing skill + arcane wave) apply boons to allies based upon your current element ( Might/vigor/resistance/alacrity/quickness/unblockable/stab ...)! > Same for Elemental surge : give the +150 ferocity to allies affected with.!! Earth could make core skills a bit stronger to support allies!

! > Add a trait to share the bonus of Conjured Weapons to 4 allies. Signets could apply barriers or a combo field.....

! > Etc.!! For auras.! May be we could move Elemental Bastion from Tempest to Water, and Powerful Aura from Water to arcane or earth. Add a new trait on Shouts (-20% CD, larger range, +1sec to auras from shouts , shouts grants Resistance or Alacrity or +5% dmg..... )! Elemental Shielding could cast a Magnetic Aura. Same for Zephyr boons in Air-lane. So you could make Auramancer a Core build; And tempest will be more focused on Shouts rather than only making auras stronger.! For Weaver, honestly I don't know. May be low all the differents buff traits and upgrade a bit the power/heal base from weapons and core skills ? I don't know how to give a proper identity without break all the fun I have with.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

@""draxynnic.3719"

:+1:

Most of e-spec come with a "new" gameplay, a new identity. So of course it encompass the core spec to mix or improve some facets. IMO this is not the case with Elem, not as distinct.

Tempest

with

shouts/auras

? Elem already got auras, auras were already one the major support gameplay of elem with the Water lane, there is nothing new. Worst, it shows how bad were the differents traits on auras before tempest and we lost or got nerfed some. Edit; By Major, I mean it was one of the few.

Weaver

: It's just dps elem but stronger, more sustainable. A bit like Soulbeast were Ranger but stronger, or daredevil to thief .... There is no real trade-off about weaver ; a 4sec CD on attunement and dual skills often stronger than core skills ... I've seen worst.

Elem lacks strong utility skills and traits able to support allies in a different way than Auras/shouts. Same for DPS, we need something to compensate the fresh-air overload from tempest (or nerf

Transcendant tempest

trait ) and all the skills and buffs traits from weaver (

Weaver's prowess, superior's elements, Swift Revenge, Elemental Polyphony, elements of rage

... it's A LOT for an elite spec)

! Arcane could share "stronger" boons and some buffs without to rally on auras.!! > Arcane Prowess, and Arcane restoration : for 5 players! > Renewing Stamina : should compete with Latent Stamina. Apply to 5 players vigor and alacrity , or vigor you apply effectiveness +25%, something like that.! > Final Shielding is kitten : new trait ; arcane skills (Arcane power + the arcane healing skill + arcane wave) apply boons to allies based upon your current element ( Might/vigor/resistance/alacrity/quickness/unblockable/stab ...)! > Same for Elemental surge : give the +150 ferocity to allies affected with.!! Earth could make core skills a bit stronger to support allies!

! > Add a trait to share the bonus of Conjured Weapons to 4 allies. Signets could apply barriers or a combo field.....

! > Etc.!! For auras.! May be we could move Elemental Bastion from Tempest to Water, and Powerful Aura from Water to arcane or earth. Add a new trait on Shouts (-20% CD, larger range, +1sec to auras from shouts , shouts grants Resistance or Alacrity or +5% dmg..... )! Elemental Shielding could cast a Magnetic Aura. Same for Zephyr boons in Air-lane. So you could make Auramancer a Core build; And tempest will be more focused on Shouts rather than only making auras stronger.! For Weaver, honestly I don't know. May be low all the differents buff traits and upgrade a bit the power/heal base from weapons and core skills ? I don't know how to give a proper identity without break all the fun I have with.

I love weaver, so for me it's no hardship. However, to say that it isn't a tradeoff to be able to access only part of your skillset within a single swap at any given time is simply inaccurate. It is absolutely a limitation that you have to accept with weaver. You can ask the many players who really dislike the feel of weaver as a result of this. Again, for me it's absolutely perfect and fits like a glove. But it doesn't play like core ele at all. I call it quite brilliant, really. But your mileage may vary!

Now is that tradeoff compensated? Definitely! Weaver is amazing! I can agree that core ele does not measure up well to it.