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Roaming // Condi builds forcing us to sacrifice crucial build elements for cleanse uptime


solemn.9670

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Core necro's problem is with its ridiculous sustain, not because of condi. Plus unlike some of the other listed classes cannot chase you down. Most of the time people die to core necro is because they chase the necro since everyone's been conditioned to think necro is a free kill and get upset when they are not.. (I have yet to shake this mentality myself)

Mirage has always been a problem, but condi or not, it is still.

Burn guard in 1v1 with their 1 condition? I dunno. Guardians are probably the lowest threat level to me tbh, regardless of class. Maybe it's because I main guard and it's one of the most popular classes so most are insanely predictable, not that it isn't a predictable class to begin with.

Overperforming specs and too much sustain seems to be a bigger problem than condi. I'm thinking all 4 stat armor should be nerfed only in wvw, but not sure how that works since nothing can be changed in this game because technical limitations. Maybe we could nerf concentration and expertise.

BTW unless you're totally already loaded on condi clears (running purge gyro or one of the cleanse mantras or something), antitoxin runes are not the way to go. Why is this? It only works when you actually have condi clear. Clearing that extra cover condi doesn't help. So it does nothing to help you when you need it, especially vs attackers that just focus on a single type of condi. This is why cleansing sigils are massively valued; they clear your condis when you need to!

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:Overperforming specs and too much sustain seems to be a bigger problem than condi. I'm thinking all 4 stat armor should be nerfed only in wvw, but not sure how that works since nothing can be changed in this game because technical limitations. Maybe we could nerf concentration and expertise.

Which would be ok if all classes had nearly identical active/passive defenses built into their kits. However they’re not even close.Fact to the matter is that some classes require investment in defensive stats to survive, while others can roll zerker gear and be fine on sustain. That alone makes such a suggestion unfeasible, at least with the way things are right now.

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@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Overperforming specs and too much sustain seems to be a bigger problem than condi. I'm thinking all 4 stat armor should be nerfed only in wvw, but not sure how that works since nothing can be changed in this game because technical limitations. Maybe we could nerf concentration and expertise.

Which would be ok if all classes had nearly identical active/passive defenses built into their kits. However they’re not even close.Fact to the matter is that some classes require investment in defensive stats to survive, while others can roll zerker gear and be fine on sustain. That alone makes such a suggestion unfeasible, at least with the way things are right now.

Why is it unfeasible when that's how it was before HoT? All 4 stats gear really does is power creep and remove the need for trade offs.

People still use core stats like dire.

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Overperforming specs and too much sustain seems to be a bigger problem than condi. I'm thinking all 4 stat armor should be nerfed only in wvw, but not sure how that works since nothing can be changed in this game because technical limitations. Maybe we could nerf concentration and expertise.

Which would be ok if all classes had nearly identical active/passive defenses built into their kits. However they’re not even close.Fact to the matter is that some classes require investment in defensive stats to survive, while others can roll zerker gear and be fine on sustain. That alone makes such a suggestion unfeasible, at least with the way things are right now.

Why is it unfeasible when that's how it was before HoT? All 4 stats gear really does is power creep and remove the need for trade offs.

People still use core stats like dire.

I apologize, I missed the part about 4 stat gears. Yes those did introduce an unnecessary power creep. Then further introduced the need for ANet to balance base condi duration from skills to balance them out. However as it is now, short of them removing expertise and concentration as stats to go back to the original +% values awarded by traits and skills, I really don’t see a fix. So that ship set sails long time ago and talking about it now makes little sense.

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Ok so I just got back from my Ele guy. He looked over the Metabattle Fire Weaver spec, said you can get around 15 condi cleanses in the first 30 secs of a fight with a couple trait swaps, without slotting Antitoxin or Cleansing sigil. He then mentioned, that slotting Antitoxin in that build makes a lot of sense since you get that extra condi damage on top of the extra cleanse.So tell me again man, what exactly is your problem here? Sorry you can’t slot even more damage or duration on your burns, but at some point you gotta draw the line and min/max. You’re NOT by any means required to slot those runes, but you can choose to and get 175 extra condi damage. I really don’t understand your gripe.

And with that being said... /thread

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@ArlAlt.1630 said:Ok so I just got back from my Ele guy. He looked over the Metabattle Fire Weaver spec, said you can get around 15 condi cleanses in the first 30 secs of a fight with a couple trait swaps, without slotting Antitoxin or Cleansing sigil. He then mentioned, that slotting Antitoxin in that build makes a lot of sense since you get that extra condi damage on top of the extra cleanse.So tell me again man, what exactly is your problem here? Sorry you can’t slot even more damage or duration on your burns, but at some point you gotta draw the line and min/max. You’re NOT by any means required to slot those runes, but you can choose to and get 175 extra condi damage. I really don’t understand your gripe.

And with that being said... /thread

My guy, Solemn Sacrilege probably knows all this information already and is probably 100x better than 99% of the people who’ve made comments on this thread thus far.

Do you really think the research you just did qualifies as actual research that deserves a /thread? You’ve basically said absolutely nothing of real impact.

What Solemn is saying is that you have to spec into antitoxin in order to fight condi meta because condi application meta is so strong you need to spec full cleansing to just be alive and do things in a fight. You can’t NOT afford to take this rune.

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You also got to factor in the skill of the player.

What that means is if you face bad players, you probably can 1v many for awhile. But if they know how to coordinate, they will bomb at the same time, bursting you with condi. And you will lose.

I remember pre nerf of burn on ren, you can actually do a lot of 1v many bad players. Now, it's not as easy.

There's builds which makes you immortal for a bit. Like the old school mace shield war. Or the unkillable core necro, but as patches happen, the old God's lose the edge.

In the end you'll be thinking Mara cavalier ranger. Let's go.

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@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:I typed a long detailed post and decided to delete it because condi-mains will just reply with "jUsT cLeanSe JuSt DoDgE" regardless. You can't fix people like that and I won't try to change their minds.

Fact of the matter: condi is OP and every competent player who wants to win at least 8/10 matchups is forced to run a build with antitoxin rune, or lose every time vs condi mirage, core necro, occasionally to burn guard, and condi rev (to an even lesser degree). There is simply not enough condi cleanse in the game to deal with these builds without specifically building against them (i.e. antitoxin fire weaver), sacrificing crucial traits that would be of value vs power enemies or forcing certain builds and decreasing build diversity/overall fun of the game...

Condi mirage is probably still busted tbh, at least as far as very smallscale fights go (at least when you're outnumbered).

Core necro, just don't engage, they have 0 chase potential and extremely low dmg, but they're so tanky 1v1 that it's not worth the effort. If you're in a group just chainstun them.

Burnguard is annoying cause it's so bursty but they have no personal CC and possibly the worst sustain in the game. Just focus them and they either die or do invuln>block and run away (very slowly).

Condirev has low mobility and bad access to stab with mediocre sustain (outside of Tormenting Runes hitting multiple targets, in which case they're in melee with multiple enemies so high risk high reward).

overpowered builds are overpowered, enough said. please don't take half a year to patch this.

-solemn

So the best anti condi tool in the game is sigil of cleansing, takes up 1 sigil slot, for power builds sigil slots are extremely low value. You essentially give up nothing for it. It isn't even mentioned in your post where you mention stuff like antitoxin.

Antitoxin isn't needed on a single build to get a good condi matchup, but it does allow you completely crush all condi matchups as you take essentially 0 dmg.

By itself cleansing is probably enough to make you able to win against most condi builds assuming you have no other clears.

That you have to go a up valuable traits/skills to improve your condi matchups doesn't seem that weird, you're just arguing from a point of view where power is the default.

I could whine that I have to give up precious cleanses to improve my matchups versus power builds and it would be the same thing.

Why should I have to give up running plaguedoctor on my support elementalist and be "forced" to run minstrel instead just because I get shredded by the obscene power damage otherwise?

Why should I be forced to run - 10% dmg taken food instead of - 20% condi duration food?

I run cleansing sigil and 2 other mediocre clears and have no issues with condi builds, neither does anyone in my group (usual groupsize 3) who runs similar amounts of condi clears. We essentially have no group clears (about 5-15% of my clears for example is from party members,according to logs).

The best solution is to kill them before they kill you and cleansing generally shifts that in your favor.

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:Ok so I just got back from my Ele guy. He looked over the Metabattle Fire Weaver spec, said you can get around 15 condi cleanses in the first 30 secs of a fight with a couple trait swaps, without slotting Antitoxin or Cleansing sigil. He then mentioned, that slotting Antitoxin in that build makes a lot of sense since you get that extra condi damage on top of the extra cleanse.So tell me again man, what exactly is your problem here? Sorry you can’t slot even more damage or duration on your burns, but at some point you gotta draw the line and min/max. You’re NOT by any means required to slot those runes, but you can choose to and get 175 extra condi damage. I really don’t understand your gripe.

And with that being said... /thread

My guy, Solemn Sacrilege probably knows all this information already and is probably 100x better than 99% of the people who’ve made comments on this thread thus far.

I'd honestly be embarrassed if one of my friends made a similar post about how good I am and how everyone should listen to me on the forums....

Do you really think the research you just did qualifies as actual research that deserves a /thread? You’ve basically said absolutely nothing of real impact.

What Solemn is saying is that you have to spec into antitoxin in order to fight condi meta because condi application meta is so strong you need to spec full cleansing to just be alive and do things in a fight. You can’t NOT afford to take this rune.

But you really really don't.

Every single class can currently get okay condi clear with just sigil of cleansing. With that and 2-3 skills/traits (that are often good anyway) most classes have fantastic clears.

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@lodjur.1284 said:I'd honestly be embarrassed if one of my friends made a similar post about how good I am and how everyone should listen to me on the forums....

We’re not friends. I’ve just seen him in action when he occasionally showed up in our open field GvGs when my guild was linked to his server

@"Dahir.4158" said:@JusticeRetroHunter.7684

You're an ele. You don't need Antitoxin to fight condi players xD

I don’t just play Ele, I play almost every class.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:the pve extremes of builds in any direction (power, condi, tank) are pretty lame and anet won't do anything about them. the simple solution (may not be easy tho) is to nerf the extremes of stat stacking on gear so people can't stack 3k power/ 2k condi/ 3.6k toughness.

The problem with this in WvW is that Condi stacks 2 of those does really good damage while stacking alot of armor. I do feel condi does need to be toned down a bit. When they nerf overall power damage it just made Condi builds all that more difficult to kill. IMO they should find a way to make condi damage have to crit to do big damage. That way there isn't Vit and Toughness stacking on condi builds

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@Sovereign.1093 said:You also got to factor in the skill of the player.

What that means is if you face bad players, you probably can 1v many for awhile. But if they know how to coordinate, they will bomb at the same time, bursting you with condi. And you will lose.

I don't get where this argument is coming from. If anything, it's easier to 1v2 condi classes than two power classes.

If two condi classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you can cleanse and you may have the advantage as your 1 cleanse erases both players' burn stacks.

If two power classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you're just dead because their damage is instant.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:I'd honestly be embarrassed if one of my friends made a similar post about how good I am and how everyone should listen to me on the forums....

We’re not friends. I’ve just seen him in action when he occasionally showed up in our open field GvGs when my guild was linked to his server

Course not. Sounds very believable.

@"Dahir.4158" said:@JusticeRetroHunter.7684

You're an ele. You don't need Antitoxin to fight condi players xD

I don’t just play Ele, I play almost every class.

And none of em needs antitoxin.

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@coro.3176 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:You also got to factor in the skill of the player.

What that means is if you face bad players, you probably can 1v many for awhile. But if they know how to coordinate, they will bomb at the same time, bursting you with condi. And you will lose.

I don't get where this argument is coming from. If anything, it's
easier
to 1v2 condi classes than two power classes.

If two condi classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you can cleanse and you may have the advantage as your 1 cleanse erases
both
players' burn stacks.

If two power classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you're just dead because their damage is instant.

Its simple. If your enemy is skilled, or more skilled than you, you probably will lose.

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@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:You also got to factor in the skill of the player.

What that means is if you face bad players, you probably can 1v many for awhile. But if they know how to coordinate, they will bomb at the same time, bursting you with condi. And you will lose.

I don't get where this argument is coming from. If anything, it's
easier
to 1v2 condi classes than two power classes.

If two condi classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you can cleanse and you may have the advantage as your 1 cleanse erases
both
players' burn stacks.

If two power classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you're just dead because their damage is instant.

Its simple. If your enemy is skilled, or more skilled than you, you probably will lose.

Agreed, but given equal skill of opponents, it is easier to 1v2 condi than it is to 1v2 power, because with 1v2 condi, you might be able to nullify both of their damage with a single cleanse. With power, their damage is always fully applied.

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@coro.3176 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:You also got to factor in the skill of the player.

What that means is if you face bad players, you probably can 1v many for awhile. But if they know how to coordinate, they will bomb at the same time, bursting you with condi. And you will lose.

I don't get where this argument is coming from. If anything, it's
easier
to 1v2 condi classes than two power classes.

If two condi classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you can cleanse and you may have the advantage as your 1 cleanse erases
both
players' burn stacks.

If two power classes burst you at the same time and you fail to dodge/block, you're just dead because their damage is instant.

Its simple. If your enemy is skilled, or more skilled than you, you probably will lose.

Agreed, but given equal skill of opponents, it is easier to 1v2 condi than it is to 1v2 power, because with 1v2 condi, you might be able to nullify both of their damage with a single cleanse. With power, their damage is always fully applied, given that it hits.

But that's not the situation. I'm saying. It's easy to beat bad players. But the moment they're good, you can't easily 1v2. Certain classes don't just put condi they corrupt stuff.

If you face equal opponents most likely the build will carry. Or the knowledge of kiting thru territory. Etc. The running around game.

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@kiwituatara.6053 said:What’s the opportunity cost of taking trailblazer or dire gear? It’s not like you need other offensive stats to do good condition damage. There is minimal sacrifice to condition damage when you pick up dire/trailblazer gear.

As @Dawdler.8521 alluded to above, the opportunity cost is time.

In short, condi takes more time to kill its targets than power

  • either because the condi application is constant and gradual (low damage, but hard to cleanse)
  • or because it's bursty (high damage, but will be cleansed so must be reapplied, and that means waiting on cooldowns)

Thus, the condi player needs to survive enemy counterattacks longer while the damage ticks. Hence, more defensive stats on condi sets.

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@"Sovereign.1093" said:If they nerf burn then condi will be easier to beat. It's the status that acts like power burst daamge.

They kind of did already on a lot of classes. On engi, for example, they basically cut burn damage in half on its main damage skill: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blowtorch

That used to do 4 stacks for 6 seconds. Now it does 2 stacks for 12, but since there is so much cleanse, it's always going to be cleansed before 6 seconds have passed.

They also increased the cooldown by 25%.

If that's not a heavy nerf, I don't know what is.

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Saying that condi takes more time to kill is not true. Torment Burn and confusion are the main problems with condi damage I have had a 10k Burn tick proc on me and torment and confusion punish u for doing anything. There is no way anyone can convince me that Trailblazers and dire are needed for condi players just because of ramp up time.

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@Helly.2597 said:

@God.2708 said:Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

You're totally right, trade offs are required. That is at the core of balance. But I struggle to find the trade offs for using dire/tb/minstrels. You don't lose dmg (or support ability for minstrels), you don't lose toughness, you don't lose hp. You're gotten away with countering builds (such as burst builds) that are supposed to combat yours without actually making a concession.

I'm not against condi I'm against stat sets being no brainer decisions. There are reasons dire/tb/minstrels don't exist in spvp, and it's not because spvpers don't know how to properly counter builds.

There's a lot of nobrain sets for all roles.Only combinations we lack IMO

  • Power, Precision, Vitality
  • Power, Ferocity, Precision, Vitality
  • Precision, Condition Damage, Vitality, Expertise
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