Deadeye - Too powerful?

[Yasai.3549]

The only thing about DE that needs nerfing is their extremely overloaded Cantrip, Binding Shadow.It:

• Immobilizes
• inflicts Poison, if not for damage, but for heal block as well
• Knocks down if target is Marked
• 15 Vuln stacks
• 2 Boons ripped
• Can be pre-casted from Stealth with 0 tell and without revealing themselves until the damage tick applies along with the above-listed effects

Half the time a DE ever gets a kill, it's because this skill sets up their target to be the most helpless baby elephant which probably has brain damage due to how it gives complete and absolute lockdown on the target, only countered if the target somehow is able to resist the knockdown and resist/remove the immobilize, which is also accounted for btw, due to Boon ripping prioritizing Stability first.

Its cooldown is 30s, but for how many things it achieves with a single button press, it may as well be an elite skill.(If yu ask me, there are alot of skills which are basically mini elite skills in the game right now that also needs nerfing, but this is just DE for this topic)

[kash.9213]

@Yasai.3549 said:The only thing about DE that needs nerfing is their extremely overloaded Cantrip, Binding Shadow.It:

• Immobilizes
• inflicts Poison, if not for damage, but for heal block as well
• Knocks down if target is Marked
• 15 Vuln stacks
• 2 Boons ripped
• Can be pre-casted from Stealth with 0 tell and without revealing themselves until the damage tick applies along with the above-listed effects

Half the time a DE ever gets a kill, it's because this skill sets up their target to be the most helpless baby elephant which probably has brain damage due to how it gives complete and absolute lockdown on the target, only countered if the target somehow is able to resist the knockdown and resist/remove the immobilize, which is also accounted for btw, due to Boon ripping prioritizing Stability first.

Its cooldown is 30s, but for how many things it achieves with a single button press, it may as well be an elite skill.(If yu ask me, there are alot of skills which are basically mini elite skills in the game right now that also needs nerfing, but this is just DE for this topic)

I'd probably end up taking Binding Shadow over Shadow Meld in WvW if it were an elite. I'd use it now if it could pull off walls. I kind of forget why I stopped using it in open field, might have been the ammo management of Scorpion Wire having better sustain overall.

[Taobella.6597]

i think deadeye in a fine state. i wouldn't mind seeing shadow retreat slightly nerf in some way maybe just adding like 2 second hard CD to it. but outside of that deadeye does not hit hard enough for it to really matter.

[sector.9634]

Its a normal class. You win/lose against him. And its not even the best class. Its more difficult to play now. Not so hard carryed by class, which is okay.Many new player think "nice Im invis whole time yay", they try and realized it is a weak class and not very forgiving.

There are multible mechanics to fight it (refelect, barrier, invul, los, bodycover from minions/ pets, doges, interrupts, blocks).

If you are engaged this all, you would loose against every other class too. Even against a Npc of a camp.

If ppl have trouble with de, I guess they have trouble with a lot other classes too.

[Qaju.2058]

@"Taobella.6597" said:i think deadeye in a fine state. i wouldn't mind seeing shadow retreat slightly nerf in some way maybe just adding like 2 second hard CD to it. but outside of that deadeye does not hit hard enough for it to really matter.

Huh what? That skill doesn't exist anymore. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_RetreatDid you mean rifle#4 death's retreat instead? Its ini cost was already increased on big patch so can't use it 3x in row in Trickery, can only use it twice.

Thief core design philosophy on weapon skills don't have hard CD to them. The soft cd already in place is the ini cost and ini regen. And it puts death's retreat to 6s cd already in its current state.

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

If DE gets "toned down" it is dead. I can win more 1v1 matchups with my necro than DE. I play DE because it plays differently and is fun, but it is not OP. It counters certain builds really well, but that's always the case. It shuts down necros well who didn't bring mobility related skills. But it gets shut down by several other builds too.

Also...i find any good D/P can kill a DE by maybe that's just me

[Taobella.6597]

@aleron.1438 said:

@"Taobella.6597" said:i think deadeye in a fine state. i wouldn't mind seeing

shadow retreat

slightly nerf in some way maybe just adding like 2 second hard CD to it. but outside of that deadeye does not hit hard enough for it to really matter.

Huh what? That skill doesn't exist anymore.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Retreat

Did you mean rifle#4 death's retreat instead? Its ini cost was already increased on big patch so can't use it 3x in row in Trickery, can only use it twice.

Thief core design philosophy on weapon skills don't have hard CD to them. The soft cd already in place is the ini cost and ini regen. And it puts death's retreat to 6s cd already in its current state.

yeah that one Lol. anything open to change at some point.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Vashuddha.1538 said:snip it's the patronizing arroganse that usually comes with it that I have a problem with snip

If you're willing to help, and perhaps share some of your knowledge, then I am all ears, but let's keep it factual and civil ☺️

@Vashuddha.1538 said:What are you babbling about?

Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaah. Factual and civil.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Yasai.3549 said:The only thing about DE that needs nerfing is their extremely overloaded Cantrip, Binding Shadow.It:

• Immobilizes
• inflicts Poison, if not for damage, but for heal block as well
• Knocks down if target is Marked
• 15 Vuln stacks
• 2 Boons ripped
• Can be pre-casted from Stealth with 0 tell and without revealing themselves until the damage tick applies along with the above-listed effects

Half the time a DE ever gets a kill, it's because this skill sets up their target to be the most helpless baby elephant which probably has brain damage due to how it gives complete and absolute lockdown on the target, only countered if the target somehow is able to resist the knockdown and resist/remove the immobilize, which is also accounted for btw, due to Boon ripping prioritizing Stability first.

Its cooldown is 30s, but for how many things it achieves with a single button press, it may as well be an elite skill.(If yu ask me, there are alot of skills which are basically mini elite skills in the game right now that also needs nerfing, but this is just DE for this topic)

This is a fair comment tbh. The skill is pretty overloaded for what it is.

[Arheundel.6451]

Lol...players asking for buffs on deadeye....absurd...completely absurd

-Only a well played herald or sustain soulbeast got any chance to kill a DE not played by a potato-Most specs haven't got the mobility to either catch it up or run away from it-things like Silent Scope are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

[UNOwen.7132]

@Arheundel.6451 said:Lol...players asking for buffs on deadeye....absurd...completely absurd

Yeah, its so absurd that people want an elite spec that is completely unviable in both PvP gamemodes to be buffed. Though, that being said, a rework is better, just cut kneel.

-Only a well played herald or sustain soulbeast got any chance to kill a DE not played by a potato-Most specs haven't got the mobility to either catch it up or run away from it-things like Silent Scope are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

The only type of DE that cant be killed is the one that also doesnt do anything. That is equally useless. You dont need to catch up to a class when that class is entirely useless, just ignore them and enjoy your free 5v4. And Silent Scope is still just a 1 second stealth that basically does nothing.

[saerni.2584]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:Lol...players asking for buffs on deadeye....absurd...completely absurd

Yeah, its so absurd that people want an elite spec that is completely unviable in both PvP gamemodes to be buffed. Though, that being said, a rework is better, just cut kneel.

-Only a well played herald or sustain soulbeast got any chance to kill a DE not played by a potato-Most specs haven't got the mobility to either catch it up or run away from it-things like

Silent Scope

are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

The only type of DE that cant be killed is the one that also doesnt do anything. That is equally useless. You dont need to catch up to a class when that class is entirely useless, just ignore them and enjoy your free 5v4. And Silent Scope is still just a 1 second stealth that basically does nothing.

It’s better in WvW where you can use food to get +40% endurance regen. That lets you chain a lot more stealth and effectively stall out most people permanently (guess what I fought earlier today in WvW lol). Plenty of my less capable allies were ending up downed in fights with that DE.

IMO DE needs more work on Rifle skills themselves or how rifle plays. Non-rifle DE is actually fine. Kneel as a mechanic is interesting but doesn’t work well in PvP where your movement skills should automatically break your kneel stance but don’t.

The disconnect on DE is the potential power of the specialization is much higher than your average player is able to get without resorting to permastealth. Good DE will have dangerous levels of damage and not be permastealth. But that is balanced and the people complaining about permastealth DE are actually just falling into the trap of trying to fight an attrition stealth build and complaining about that. That’s not a clean fight, it relies on the target sticking around to “fight” while the other party takes potshots until the DE either wins or disengages due to becoming outnumbered. It’s a mind game and has little to do with the balance of the game.

[ASP.8093]

@Arheundel.6451 said:-things like Silent Scope are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? The damage has been nerfed.

[Sobx.1758]

@ASP.8093 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:-things like

Silent Scope

are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? The damage

has

been nerfed.

Seriously, that sentence seemed pretty ridiculous to me. Basically "it would be broken, but it's not!" uh... ok?

[UNOwen.7132]

@saerni.2584 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:Lol...players asking for buffs on deadeye....absurd...completely absurd

Yeah, its so absurd that people want an elite spec that is completely unviable in both PvP gamemodes to be buffed. Though, that being said, a rework is better, just cut kneel.

-Only a well played herald or sustain soulbeast got any chance to kill a DE not played by a potato-Most specs haven't got the mobility to either catch it up or run away from it-things like

Silent Scope

are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

The only type of DE that cant be killed is the one that also doesnt do anything. That is equally useless. You dont need to catch up to a class when that class is entirely useless, just ignore them and enjoy your free 5v4. And Silent Scope is still just a 1 second stealth that basically does nothing.

It’s better in WvW where you can use food to get +40% endurance regen. That lets you chain a lot more stealth and effectively stall out most people permanently (guess what I fought earlier today in WvW lol). Plenty of my less capable allies were ending up downed in fights with that DE.

Thing is, stalling out doesnt really do much. The build still has to find a way to do damage without letting the opponent retaliate in any of the myriad of ways that can crush the DE. Its good against bad players because apparently people just dont like dodging Deaths Judgment. Its puzzling really.

IMO DE needs more work on Rifle skills themselves or how rifle plays. Non-rifle DE is actually fine. Kneel as a mechanic is interesting but doesn’t work well in PvP where your movement skills should automatically break your kneel stance but don’t.

Kneel mechanics problem is that the entire concept is flawed. Anchoring yourself is a big downside, and it needs a major benefit to be worth it. But at the same time if the benefit actually is major, the thing becomes uninteractive. Imagine if a DE could actually down you in a couple seconds from far away with you having little chance to stop it. And as it is, the kneeled skills are outright worse than the regular ones, so you have 0 reason to ever kneel.

The disconnect on DE is the potential power of the specialization is much higher than your average player is able to get without resorting to permastealth. Good DE will have dangerous levels of damage and not be permastealth. But that is balanced and the people complaining about permastealth DE are actually just falling into the trap of trying to fight an attrition stealth build and complaining about that. That’s not a clean fight, it relies on the target sticking around to “fight” while the other party takes potshots until the DE either wins or disengages due to becoming outnumbered. It’s a mind game and has little to do with the balance of the game.

Good DEs will have more damage than people trying to go for permastealth, but it will still be heavily outclassed by other ranged builds, such as, well, ranger. Hypothetically this should be balanced out by range, but Ranger outright has 200 more range than DE does, and since you dont ever kneel, thief is on par with everyone else.

[HowlKamui.5120]

@Vashuddha.1538 said:

@Friday.7864 said:If it was OP I'd be seeing a lot more of the class wherever I go. But I don't, barely anyone I know plays it.

I'm not sure if I agree with this logic. There could be many contributing factors to why people choose to utilize another build over the other.

There's literally 2 reasons.

1. They like the flavor of other builds; and
2. Other builds are stronger.

[HowlKamui.5120]

@Yasai.3549 said:The only thing about DE that needs nerfing is their extremely overloaded Cantrip, Binding Shadow.It:

• Immobilizes
• inflicts Poison, if not for damage, but for heal block as well
• Knocks down if target is Marked
• 15 Vuln stacks
• 2 Boons ripped
• Can be pre-casted from Stealth with 0 tell and without revealing themselves until the damage tick applies along with the above-listed effects

Half the time a DE ever gets a kill, it's because this skill sets up their target to be the most helpless baby elephant which probably has brain damage due to how it gives complete and absolute lockdown on the target, only countered if the target somehow is able to resist the knockdown and resist/remove the immobilize, which is also accounted for btw, due to Boon ripping prioritizing Stability first.

Its cooldown is 30s, but for how many things it achieves with a single button press, it may as well be an elite skill.(If yu ask me, there are alot of skills which are basically mini elite skills in the game right now that also needs nerfing, but this is just DE for this topic)

It's their only CC though. And every class should have a stun break. So against a deadeye you should be holding your stunbreak until you get hit by this.

[Yasai.3549]

@mikdepadua.8376 said:

It's their only CC though. And every class should have a stun break. So against a deadeye you should be holding your stunbreak until you get hit by this.

It's not the CC portion I care about, it's how it just dumps a whole load of Conditions as well as boon rips which annoys me.

And this is far from their only CC.They have by far the most consistent CC in the entire game : Spotter's Shot.No cooldown spammable 1.5sec Immob which somehow still does damage, only countered by Resistance.

It also prevents dodge rolling, forcing people to take the DJ.Do they need a no tell knockdown which inflicts heal block, another immob, 2 Boon rip and 15 vuln stacks in addition to this?Hell no.

[Doug.4930]

@saerni.2584 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:Lol...players asking for buffs on deadeye....absurd...completely absurd

Yeah, its so absurd that people want an elite spec that is completely unviable in both PvP gamemodes to be buffed. Though, that being said, a rework is better, just cut kneel.

-Only a well played herald or sustain soulbeast got any chance to kill a DE not played by a potato-Most specs haven't got the mobility to either catch it up or run away from it-things like

Silent Scope

are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

The only type of DE that cant be killed is the one that also doesnt do anything. That is equally useless. You dont need to catch up to a class when that class is entirely useless, just ignore them and enjoy your free 5v4. And Silent Scope is still just a 1 second stealth that basically does nothing.

It’s better in WvW where you can use food to get +40% endurance regen. That lets you chain a lot more stealth and effectively stall out most people permanently.

I think the bigger problem with perma stealth is the amount of blind fields DE/thief has access to combo. DE being able to drop snipers cover/black powder/smokescreen and swap to d/p or short bow for the blast/leap finishers essentially ensures nothing can out stealth them. Then ofcourse by the time the stealth has ended all init that was spent stealthing would have regenerated. If a class wants to stack stealth they should at the very least be forced to use cool downs that won't be back up by the time their stealth ends. Of course you can counter this by standing in the blind fields, but this essentially gives the thief a free hit/burst.

Dodge food is great don't get me wrong, which is why I'm actually running it, but it only works out to be an extra dodge every 15-20 seconds or so, which is amazing, but not the greatest method of perma stealthing.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Vashuddha.1538 said:It has come to my attention that some people are a bit unsatifsied with the current state of Deadeye. It is my firm opinion that Deadeye needs to be toned down a bit, but I would love to hear your take on this, and open up a discussion on whether Deadeye needs a nerf or not.

So..

1. Needs a nerf - explain why
2. Deadeye is fine as it is - explain why

Let's keep this civil.

Ultimately, neither. The deadeye is basicaly a thief with problematic core designs magnified. It's less a matter of balancing the deadeye than rethink the design of the thief that need to be done.

The thief suffered nerfs after nerfs since game release because it's gameplay revolve around dealing burst of damage from stealth. Deadeye just so happen to make those burst of damage from stealth more potent. The issue other professions have is that high damage burst with little visual tells isn't a thing which is fun to play against. The issue the thief have is that so much of the gameplay have been dedicated to this design that trying to play anything else tend to be subpar.

In the end, stealth is made to strong offensively and defensively due to it's visual impact. Yet if this visual impact was attenuated the thief wouldn't quite cut it defensively. Thus it's yet another impossible balance equation due to a broken core mechanism design. There is no balancing this profession or/and e-spec, it's either to good or extremly bad.

[saerni.2584]

@Doug.4930 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:Lol...players asking for buffs on deadeye....absurd...completely absurd

Yeah, its so absurd that people want an elite spec that is completely unviable in both PvP gamemodes to be buffed. Though, that being said, a rework is better, just cut kneel.

-Only a well played herald or sustain soulbeast got any chance to kill a DE not played by a potato-Most specs haven't got the mobility to either catch it up or run away from it-things like

Silent Scope

are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

The only type of DE that cant be killed is the one that also doesnt do anything. That is equally useless. You dont need to catch up to a class when that class is entirely useless, just ignore them and enjoy your free 5v4. And Silent Scope is still just a 1 second stealth that basically does nothing.

It’s better in WvW where you can use food to get +40% endurance regen. That lets you chain a lot more stealth and effectively stall out most people permanently.

I think the bigger problem with perma stealth is the amount of blind fields DE/thief has access to combo. DE being able to drop snipers cover/black powder/smokescreen and swap to d/p or short bow for the blast/leap finishers essentially ensures nothing can out stealth them. Then ofcourse by the time the stealth has ended all init that was spent stealthing would have regenerated. If a class wants to stack stealth they should at the very least be forced to use cool downs that won't be back up by the time their stealth ends. Of course you can counter this by standing in the blind fields, but this essentially gives the thief a free hit/burst.

Dodge food is great don't get me wrong, which is why I'm actually running it, but it only works out to be an extra dodge every 15-20 seconds or so, which is amazing, but not the greatest method of perma stealthing.

Hey Doug! I was that thief you were fighting in the ruins :D

Wouldn’t the big endurance gain be from the food plus Vigor? I more meant that the food is what makes the Sniper trait viable as a consistent source of stealth. With the nerfs it is definitely not the main stealth access if you are built for stealth stacking.

[Sobx.1758]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@mikdepadua.8376 said:

It's their only CC though. And every class should have a stun break. So against a deadeye you should be holding your stunbreak until you get hit by this.

It's not the CC portion I care about, it's how it just dumps a whole load of Conditions as well as boon rips which annoys me.

And this is far from their only CC.They have by far the most consistent CC in the entire game : Spotter's Shot.No cooldown spammable 1.5sec Immob which somehow still does damage, only countered by Resistance.

It also prevents dodge rolling, forcing people to take the DJ.Do they need a no tell knockdown which inflicts heal block, another immob, 2 Boon rip and 15 vuln stacks in addition to this?Hell no.

Yup, there is some truth in what you're saying. BUT how often do you use kneel in pvp?I still think kneel is pretty garbage in most situations.

[Yasai.3549]

@Sobx.1758 said:

Yup, there is some truth in what you're saying. BUT how often do you use kneel in pvp?I still think kneel is pretty garbage in most situations.

Bruh imo, the entire DE spec is garbage.It capitalizes so hard on the weakness of Thief and disguises it as its strength.

Stealth as strength amplified several times over and weakness as a loser which can't do anything once they pop up to DJ amplified several times over.This is further pushed by Thief's core ini mechanic, encouraging DE players to play like true cowards and suffer heavily once they got caught by someone.

However, I feel like recently this trend has been greatly disturbed by the massive nerf meteor which now allowed DE to not die as much by getting caught, while builds that previously are able to reliably catch and beatdown DEs got hurt to the point where they no longer can't (like SpB for example, suffering alot of sustain nerfs as well as major nerfs to the one reason why they were so dominant before : their Stance passives)

I find it extremely funny as well, that I could dust off my old Sic'em pew pew SB and managed to down a DE in a single One Wolf Pack Sic'Em combo.

[kash.9213]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@mikdepadua.8376 said:

It's their only CC though. And every class should have a stun break. So against a deadeye you should be holding your stunbreak until you get hit by this.

It's not the CC portion I care about, it's how it just dumps a whole load of Conditions as well as boon rips which annoys me.

And this is far from their only CC.They have by far the most consistent CC in the entire game : Spotter's Shot.No cooldown spammable 1.5sec Immob

which somehow still does damage

, only countered by Resistance.

It also prevents dodge rolling, forcing people to take the DJ.Do they need a no tell knockdown which inflicts heal block, another immob, 2 Boon rip and 15 vuln stacks in addition to this?Hell no.

Being rooted in Kneel might have been reasoned as enough of a trade off.

[Yasai.3549]

@kash.9213 said:

Being rooted in Kneel might have been reasoned as enough of a trade off.

What tradeoff?Oh yu mean Kneel still allowing dodge rolling for Stealth and using Shadow Step?

A real trade off is to stop DE from rolling in Kneel :^)