Tempest should get a real trade off

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@montecristo.1324 said:maybe an F5> @Kodama.6453 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:

@montecristo.1324 said:

Give Core an Arcane Attunement perhaps? Yeah I know that would be a kitten ton of new skills to add, but that would be a trade off. An Arcane attunement might be fun to play with...

Otherwise an F5 that recharges all attunements but has a 60s CD itself might work.

I've always wanted an arcane attunement but I'm not sure what role it could fill.

Air seems to be mostly power based.Fire is power/condi hybrid.Water is healing and sustain.Earth is sustain/condi.

What role would Arcane fill? I feel like elementalists, weaver especially, could really use some source of quickness.

How about this, based off of the Ascalonian Arcane spirits that you see in game:

Arcane attunement pulls up 5 skills that do not change even if it is a different weapon. You could do these like a conjure skill, 1 charge each, CD is only on the F5 attunement. You can only recharge these skills when you swap out of arcane attunement, wait for the CD on it, then swap back.

1- Ascalonian sword. A standard melee attach chain. No charge on this, unlimited use. 300 range2- Ascalonian bow 1. Lob an arching arrow that hits hard, leaving foes crippled.3- Ascalonina bow 2. Launch a series of arrows at your target4- Ascalonian shield. Hold up your shield and block in front of you for 2.5 seconds5- Ascalonian staff. Channel with your staff to cause an arcane storm of aoe damage.

I don't know if I would really like to add 2.5 seconds of blocking to base elementalist for free. This is an serious increase in power to give them access to something like this by default.

Also the whole theme seems misplaced on an elementalist. Summoning ghost weapons doesn't fit them at all.

yes the theme is not right, and I think it should be just a buff skill. The idea of an F5 that reset the attunment CD is not bad, why instead of that a F5 that gives to the elementalist only alacrity and maybe ferocity or some dmg buff? It would be something related to the arcane, and it is not op like a instant cd reset, but is still a super useful skill for a ele

Just make it lesser skills of the summoned weapons we have now and the theme easily fits. 1 = flame Gs chain. 2= lightning hammer leap. 3 = frost bow arrow spray. 4= Earth shield block 2 secs is good but not a lot. 5 = fire ax aoe blast + fire aura.

Also f5 could simply be an ammo oriented arcane utility or possibly a glyph.

[Swagg.9236]

@"Dahir.4158" said:We don't need trade offs. Please stop what you're doing and clear your head. There's no need to nerf Tempest again.

Trade offs are the only things that promote concrete playstyles. Your mentality is centered on nothing but powercreep and bloat; that's why everyone cries about the tiniest amount of DPS loss or gain in PvE: there is no way to out-skill the patch notes in GW2. The skill ceiling in this game is kept extremely low because there are no drawbacks to anything.

[lodjur.1284]

@Kodama.6453 said:Anet is trying to install trade offs in all elite specs of the game, which means that the elite specs lose something permanently compared to their core classes.Recently, they installed more trade offs to other classes, like removing the in combat pet swap from the soulbeast.

Looking through the elite specs, tempest is the only one left without any real trade off in Anet's sense.I know that the attunement CDs are longer after overcharging, but the point is that the CD is just longer after using these. As long as you choose not to use the overload abilities, the tempest absolutely loses nothing compared to the elementalist.

That's not like the trade offs for other classes. Reaper's can't choose not to use their Reaper's Shroud and use their Death Shroud instead. Holosmiths can't choose not to use their Holoforge and get back their access to elite toolbelt skills. Chronomancers can't choose not to use their new set of shatters in favour of the core ones.

Death shroud is way stronger than core shroud, only reason to run core is to run an extra non-reaper traitline.

Holoforge vs core engi f5 isnt even remotely close.... The only reason to not run holosmith is because you want an extra non-holosmith traitlines.

Chrono shatters are absolutely terrible, but so is the rest of chrono (outside of raids).

Tempest should get a real permanent trade off compared to the core elementalist. Most logical thing for me would be to increase their attunement CDs by default instead of just after overload use. But I want to ask you guys what you think, too. Is there another trade off you could think of to install in the tempest?

Tempest is finally not useless since the february balance patch. After years of being trash

The trade-off is giving up an entire traitline.

There's a ton of elite specs without real trade-offs, except that one has to give up a traitline, depending on where one draws the line.

[ASP.8093]

About half of the elite spec "tradeoffs" ended up being pretty bad design mistakes — either weird warts that do nothing (e.g. taking away an engineer's hp arbitrarily) or clunky monsters that make it harder to do future balance passes (e.g. inability to self-shatter basically nuking chrono from orbit).

Current Tempest doesn't seem particularly overpowered to me, nor does it look like nerfing it some would produce a more diverse environment for core ele, so I say leave it alone.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

btw, weaver is dead in wvw. Tempest only accepted as cleanse bot + some heals. So ele is overall in a REALLY BAD SPOT.

[JohnWater.5760]

The only difference between Tempest and core is that Tempest has overloads, that's it.The core should get something similar to Revenant. Good trades-off for Core Ele.

• A mechanic skill that is like a signet, with a passive skill but has a utility skill too. (F5 or like overload)
• A new attunement, Arcane.
• Maybe this mixed, an Arcane Mechanic Skill.
• Rework on Core, can't change attunements on battle and free swap-weapon. So Tempest can freely swap attunements and don't need an increased CD.
• Add conjures to the attunement, like Overload. Add a new utility skills, Wells? Traps?
• Add a Field Skill to the attunement, like Overload.Earth will be a Earthquake or that mud, because doesn't have earth field. Huge as Warrior Burst LB.

[Leiloni.7951]

@Kodama.6453 said:Anet is trying to install trade offs in all elite specs of the game, which means that the elite specs lose something permanently compared to their core classes.Recently, they installed more trade offs to other classes, like removing the in combat pet swap from the soulbeast.

Looking through the elite specs, tempest is the only one left without any real trade off in Anet's sense.I know that the attunement CDs are longer after overcharging, but the point is that the CD is just longer after using these. As long as you choose not to use the overload abilities, the tempest absolutely loses nothing compared to the elementalist.

That's not like the trade offs for other classes. Reaper's can't choose not to use their Reaper's Shroud and use their Death Shroud instead. Holosmiths can't choose not to use their Holoforge and get back their access to elite toolbelt skills. Chronomancers can't choose not to use their new set of shatters in favour of the core ones.

Tempest should get a real permanent trade off compared to the core elementalist. Most logical thing for me would be to increase their attunement CDs by default instead of just after overload use. But I want to ask you guys what you think, too. Is there another trade off you could think of to install in the tempest?

We don't need tradeoffs when the entire class already has a tradeoff - we're squishy as heck. Having good Elite Specs makes the class somewhat balanced instead of turning all but the most hardcore off because nobody likes dying as easily as an Ele can.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:We don't need trade offs. Please stop what you're doing and clear your head. There's no need to nerf Tempest again.

Tempest can get a compensation buff in exchange, tho. And you say we don't need trade offs, but it is pretty obvious that Anet wants every elite spec to give up something to get the benefits of their elite spec. Tempest is the only exception left here.

You don't want them. Look what they did to murder Mesmer's Elite Specs.

Ele's don't deserve that.

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:btw, weaver is dead in wvw. Tempest only accepted as cleanse bot + some heals. So ele is overall in a REALLY BAD SPOT.

For once we agree.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Swagg.9236 said:

@"Dahir.4158" said:We don't need trade offs. Please stop what you're doing and clear your head. There's no need to nerf Tempest again.

Trade offs are the only things that promote concrete playstyles. Your mentality is centered on nothing but powercreep and bloat; that's why everyone cries about the tiniest amount of DPS loss or gain in PvE: there is no way to out-skill the patch notes in GW2. The skill ceiling in this game is kept extremely low because there are no drawbacks to anything.

I agree that trade offs should be in the game. However, the current trade offs currently in the game are not “real” tradeoffs.

There is a design philosophy, that harkens back to natural systems...to avoid explaining it all, it’s basically what’s called “equilibrium mechanics”

Such Equilibrium mechanics in these natural systems take on the following behavior; that when something reaches the point at which it becomes more of a detriment rather than an advantage...where it’s advantages and disadvantages reach an equilibrium with one another.

So for example, I use a skill that does 300 damage to players in an AOE around me every time I receive a condition.

This skill is a good counter to enemies that apply conditions...the more conditions you receive the stronger it is...but the trade off, is that for it to be strong, you need lots of conditions to be effecting you...and so you would otherwise just die to condition damage...this is an equilibrium between having conditions and countering those conditions

We see these equilibrium mechanics in nature all the time, and they appear in ways we never think about because of complexity...good example here is the connection between virus mutation and population; the higher the population, the more chance that viruses will mutate, thus further increasing virus propagation and mutation and lowering population until the two come to equilibrium. This is the trade off for having a high population.

In guild wars2, slapping a -300 vitality is not an equilibrium mechanic...and that’s why I hate Anets current implementation of trade-offs because they aren’t real equilibrium mechanics.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Jski.6180 said:I am still of the mind the current trade off for most elite spec is not enofe and my true suggestion would add in a trade off for tempest realty all elite spec we have now and to come.

They need to remove a wepon equal to the wepon gained AND remove an equal utility type.

So tempest would lose an off hand wepon maybe foces and i am not sure what support utility core ele even has to lose maybe signets?Weaver would lose main hand dagger or scepter as well as losing cantrips.

This would leave room for anet to keep adding in more elite spec with out braking them due to existing effects stacking (your tankly utility being added to your elite tankly skills making a super tank) as well as leaving elite spec feel there own class and not just a replacement for the core classes.

What a terrible idea!

[Kodama.6453]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Jski.6180 said:I am still of the mind the current trade off for most elite spec is not enofe and my true suggestion would add in a trade off for tempest realty all elite spec we have now and to come.

They need to remove a wepon equal to the wepon gained AND remove an equal utility type.

So tempest would lose an off hand wepon maybe foces and i am not sure what support utility core ele even has to lose maybe signets?Weaver would lose main hand dagger or scepter as well as losing cantrips.

This would leave room for anet to keep adding in more elite spec with out braking them due to existing effects stacking (your tankly utility being added to your elite tankly skills making a super tank) as well as leaving elite spec feel there own class and not just a replacement for the core classes.

What a terrible idea!

Agreed.Not to mention that it is virtually impossible that Anet will do this. It would require an extreme overhaul of the entire engineer class.

[draxynnic.3719]

I was making the "don't forgot that losing a third core traitline is a tradeoff" argument back when the tradeoffs discussion first started. It's become pretty clear that ArenaNet doesn't think that's enough. Nor do they seem to think it's enough that there's a tradeoff to using your ability if you can choose not to use your ability (that's what happened to soulbeast and druid).

The real litmus test, though, is this:

Are there top-end builds that use the core profession?

For Elementalist, the answer seems to be no. Snowcrows has no core elementalist builds. Metabattle has a handful, but they all seem to be core variants of weaver or tempest so F2P players have an option, and nobody's suggesting using core elementalist for the most demanding modes (raids and sPvP).

Compare this to, say, Guardian (which recently had people jonesing for some pretty harsh tradeoffs to Firebrand) which has a core build on Snowcrows and high-rating core builds for all modes in Metabattle.

Now, while Tempest has been making a bit of a comeback in sPvP, it certainly doesn't seem to be dominating the 5v5 meta, so I don't think there's a need to take anything away from Tempest. I'd be inclined to give something to base elementalist. Some examples could be:

• The aforementioned suggestion to grant something aura-related as an F5 skill.
• Make elementalist a medium health profession, but apply a vitality penalty to Tempest and Weaver (Weaver has the potential to get back up, but only when wielding sword.)
• Make lesser forms of the elemental adept minors available to core elementalists even without the relevant traitlines.

Other possibilities might be worth considering as well.

[Jski.6180]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Jski.6180 said:I am still of the mind the current trade off for most elite spec is not enofe and my true suggestion would add in a trade off for tempest realty all elite spec we have now and to come.

They need to remove a wepon equal to the wepon gained AND remove an equal utility type.

So tempest would lose an off hand wepon maybe foces and i am not sure what support utility core ele even has to lose maybe signets?Weaver would lose main hand dagger or scepter as well as losing cantrips.

This would leave room for anet to keep adding in more elite spec with out braking them due to existing effects stacking (your tankly utility being added to your elite tankly skills making a super tank) as well as leaving elite spec feel there own class and not just a replacement for the core classes.

What a terrible idea!

That would be a real trade off and fix balancing problems. Just losing your F5 is not a real trade off. Most elite spec. may have different f5 but most of them are power creep from there core class. Most ppl who play elite spec. over core classes have a massive advantages of power creep then though who do not.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Tempest already got a trade-off; a fat long overload +20 sec CD on affinity.The issue : Fresh-air. They nerfed the Air Overload, no problem ; but months after they upgrade Transcendant Tempest which is useless everywhere ... except for fresh air :angry:So, even with only ONE trait and one skilll, tempest can compete with a DPS Weaver with a melee weapon, with 4 DPS buffs traits and a piano ... :p :p :p :p

Remove Transcendant Tempest (or at least the -33%), replace it with quickness/alacrity on overload which is intersting for both DPS build and support build.Congratulation, you have balanced Tempest.

For core spec :Today, the only synergy for "support" on Ele seems to give boons/effects to auras, and so make Tempest the center piece, or at least the better piece.May be make utility skills a bit less selfish. Give arcane and Earth lanes a better identity. So you have differents ways to support your teammates.

! Arcane could share "stronger" boons and some buffs without to rally on auras. Earth could make core skills a bit stronger to support allies! >Arcane Prowess, and Arcane restoration : for 5 players! >Renewing Stamina : should compete with Latent Stamina. Apply to 5 players vigor and alacrity , or vigor you apply effectiveness +25%, something like that.! >Final Shielding is bullshit : new trait ; arcane skills (Arcane power + the arcane healing skill + arcane wave) apply boons to allies based upon your current element ( Might/vigor/resistance/alacrity/quickness/unblockable/stab ...)! >Same for Elemental surge : give the +150 ferocity to allies affected with.!! For earth I don't know.! >Elemental Shielding could cast a Magnetic Aura. Same for Zephyr boons in Air-lane. So you could have Auras in all lanes and make PowerFul Aura viable for Core Ele.! >Add a trait in earth to share the bonus (or 50%) of Conjured Weapons to 3~4 allies. Signets apply barriers! etc! Things like that.