Your entitlement to my LFG requirements

[Vilin.8056]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Maybe your lucky or maybe you don't see the toxic behaviour because you don't recognise it as being toxic.

Examples i've seen over the years (only talking about pug fractal and raid runs with no preconditions, i'e a casual run):

Poor Altruistic Behaviour:Reference to someones performance or build negatively (i.e being rude), may include reference to metersLeaving early because of wipes because they expect a flawless runTrying to rush the run despite of the team wishesImpatience with new or poorly performing players, i.e they are not going to become a good player in 1 run regardless of any 'coaching' or bullyingCalling wipe despite it being obvious the team wants to try and recover.Voting to kick someone because of performance.

I have a fully equipped Shaman Daredevil with perma stealth capability in which I run for off meta builds, and most of the time stays being the only person alive in various team wipes, yet 9 of 10 players of the players displayed displayed Poor Altruistic Behavior even in casual runs, even with low level players in dungeons.

Therefore all players are toxic.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:People asking for LI requirements for Strike Missions are being stupid. This isn't a raid.

And? You mean they dont know that it isnt raid? How is that relevant to asking for Li? I think it is quite smart when your goal is to play with someone who played decent amout of raids.

It's like asking for the army to resolve a domestic dispute.

You are raising a super high bar and asking for the best of the best, to do content that is really not all that difficult at all. So all you are really doing is excluding players.

This is actually incorrect, but many less experienced players don't understand why. The requirements setup for many groups are not asking for "the best of the best". Far from it.

There is a multitude of players and skill levels for instanced content, both for fractals as well as raids or any other content which requires group compositions. Most PUG or normal LFG groups ask for somewhere between minimum and acceptable levels of performance. Even the 500-750 LI and above groups accept a varying degree of performance, obviously on a higher than average level, but no where near top performance.

The problem is:Most players with less experience assume that the bare minimum or acceptable skill is already high. That is not the case. Take a look at some optimized speedrun kills, or last years Elitist Raiding Party 3 tournament, THAT'S top level of play. Unfortunately, the skill level for many inexperienced players drops far below acceptable levels even beyond the lenience most groups are willing to extend on average levels of performance.

So no, your assumption that being adequate is in any where near "best of the best levels" is incorrect. No one is looking for that in public groups.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Vilin.8056 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Maybe your lucky or maybe you don't see the toxic behaviour because you don't recognise it as being toxic.

Examples i've seen over the years (only talking about pug fractal and raid runs with no preconditions, i'e a casual run):

Poor Altruistic Behaviour:Reference to someones performance or build negatively (i.e being rude), may include reference to metersLeaving early because of wipes because they expect a flawless runTrying to rush the run despite of the team wishesImpatience with new or poorly performing players, i.e they are not going to become a good player in 1 run regardless of any 'coaching' or bullyingCalling wipe despite it being obvious the team wants to try and recover.Voting to kick someone because of performance.

I have a fully equipped Shaman Daredevil with perma stealth capability in which I run for off meta builds, and most of the time stays being the only person alive in various team wipes, yet 9 of 10 players of the players displayed displayed Poor Altruistic Behavior even in casual runs, even with low level players in dungeons.

Therefore all players are toxic.

being a martyr is the opposite of being altruistic

The negative behaviour in question are more prevalent in players who value performance of attitude, speed over relaxed play etc etc, and that's why you see more of it in a greater proportion of raiders. Note that's not all raiders.

[Vilin.8056]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Maybe your lucky or maybe you don't see the toxic behaviour because you don't recognise it as being toxic.

Examples i've seen over the years (only talking about pug fractal and raid runs with no preconditions, i'e a casual run):

Poor Altruistic Behaviour:Reference to someones performance or build negatively (i.e being rude), may include reference to metersLeaving early because of wipes because they expect a flawless runTrying to rush the run despite of the team wishesImpatience with new or poorly performing players, i.e they are not going to become a good player in 1 run regardless of any 'coaching' or bullyingCalling wipe despite it being obvious the team wants to try and recover.Voting to kick someone because of performance.

I have a fully equipped Shaman Daredevil with perma stealth capability in which I run for off meta builds, and most of the time stays being the only person alive in various team wipes, yet 9 of 10 players of the players displayed displayed Poor Altruistic Behavior even in casual runs, even with low level players in dungeons.

Therefore all players are toxic.

being a martyr is the opposite of being altruisticTherefore Martyrs are toxic.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Vilin.8056 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Maybe your lucky or maybe you don't see the toxic behaviour because you don't recognise it as being toxic.

Examples i've seen over the years (only talking about pug fractal and raid runs with no preconditions, i'e a casual run):

Poor Altruistic Behaviour:Reference to someones performance or build negatively (i.e being rude), may include reference to metersLeaving early because of wipes because they expect a flawless runTrying to rush the run despite of the team wishesImpatience with new or poorly performing players, i.e they are not going to become a good player in 1 run regardless of any 'coaching' or bullyingCalling wipe despite it being obvious the team wants to try and recover.Voting to kick someone because of performance.

I have a fully equipped Shaman Daredevil with perma stealth capability in which I run for off meta builds, and most of the time stays being the only person alive in various team wipes, yet 9 of 10 players of the players displayed displayed Poor Altruistic Behavior even in casual runs, even with low level players in dungeons.

Therefore all players are toxic.

being a martyr is the opposite of being altruisticTherefore Martyrs are toxic.

yes they are.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:Players that come so others will carry them and then they call others toxic when they dont want to.

Well this is where the word "toxic" comes from in this game, when you don't stay with them and waste your time to carry them, or when you kick them so as not to waste your time, you are called "toxic", even though the one that's toxic is the one that ended up on the team to begin with.

[Vilin.8056]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Maybe your lucky or maybe you don't see the toxic behaviour because you don't recognise it as being toxic.

Examples i've seen over the years (only talking about pug fractal and raid runs with no preconditions, i'e a casual run):

Poor Altruistic Behaviour:Reference to someones performance or build negatively (i.e being rude), may include reference to metersLeaving early because of wipes because they expect a flawless runTrying to rush the run despite of the team wishesImpatience with new or poorly performing players, i.e they are not going to become a good player in 1 run regardless of any 'coaching' or bullyingCalling wipe despite it being obvious the team wants to try and recover.Voting to kick someone because of performance.

I have a fully equipped Shaman Daredevil with perma stealth capability in which I run for off meta builds, and most of the time stays being the only person alive in various team wipes, yet 9 of 10 players of the players displayed displayed Poor Altruistic Behavior even in casual runs, even with low level players in dungeons.

Therefore all players are toxic.

being a martyr is the opposite of being altruisticTherefore Martyrs are toxic.

yes they are.

Well, that's also a Poor Altruistic Behavior towards the mentioned build and playstyle, which neither value performance over attitude, nor speed over relaxed play.

Which qualifies as a toxic behaviour.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:Dungeons, strikes, raids - you name it, you literally have no power over me putting whatever I want in the LFG as long as it within the ToS. Every now and then some sad frog joins my squad or whispers me whenever I put up high-req LFG. Getting mad over the fact that I put my own LFG and have people join it anyway, baffles ms. Nobody is forcing You to join it. You can literally make your own LFG with requirements You see fit. If I put 1k LI for raids and have people join it or 250 LI for all strikes run - It's none of your business. Make your own all welcome LFG have fun in the game the way you prefer. Thank you (:

State of the game in 2020: people actively whisper others to complain that they do not play the game in a specific way.

and they call raiders toxic...

@"Teratus.2859" said:But at the end of the day, If you don't match what a LFG is looking for though just

make your own

.. it's not hard.

Exactly.

Nobody is someone else's performance slave. If a player/commander wants only pink asura with curly hair in his squad, that's his decision. If you don't have a pink asura with curly hair, make your own squad.

Raiders are toxic though, it's why no one wants to get into raids because of the well earned reputation it has.

Why? Is it toxic when soneone wants to play with players of certain level of skill, they ask for that level of skill, you say you have that and then they see you dont?Because that is the most frequent argument I see in raids or strikes. Players that come so others will carry them and then they call others toxic when they dont want to.

its only toxic when they DON'T ask and start their behaviour where there was no preconditions set. That's the issue , not the straw-man argument about groups that define preconditions for joining a group, which isn't actually an issue at all. This OFTEN happens in pug raids.

I have ~1500 li and i would guess around double the kills. Like 1/5 of that was with pugs and I never so anything similar to what you are saying. And I mean never. I saw some people that joined and then didnt have what was required and insisted that they do. I saw much more people that joined and apologised that they dont have enough li/kp and 80% of time they were allowed to join. And if not noone was rude.

I dont know where you these toxic stories come from? I gues NA servers?My problem with players is never toxicity. It is just if they are failing too much. So then I leave. Maybe you think this is toxic? I have to say I dont know what toxic means anymore, just like feminism or racism, I think you are searching for something that isnt there

Maybe your lucky or maybe you don't see the toxic behaviour because you don't recognise it as being toxic.

Examples i've seen over the years (only talking about pug fractal and raid runs with no preconditions, i'e a casual run):

Poor Altruistic Behaviour:Reference to someones performance or build negatively (i.e being rude), may include reference to metersLeaving early because of wipes because they expect a flawless runTrying to rush the run despite of the team wishesImpatience with new or poorly performing players, i.e they are not going to become a good player in 1 run regardless of any 'coaching' or bullyingCalling wipe despite it being obvious the team wants to try and recover.Voting to kick someone because of performance.

With this imprecise definition, everyone can be called "toxic". What is a bad/good performance? What is a good timer to kill a boss?

Especially your first sentence "Reference to someones performance or build negatively" : with this, a training leader who analyse the performance and flaws of newbies and point it in order to help them improve is toxic oO.

[mindcircus.1506]

deleting comment.... decided not to get jebaited.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:Dungeons, strikes, raids - you name it, you literally have no power over me putting whatever I want in the LFG as long as it within the ToS. Every now and then some sad frog joins my squad or whispers me whenever I put up high-req LFG. Getting mad over the fact that I put my own LFG and have people join it anyway, baffles ms. Nobody is forcing You to join it. You can literally make your own LFG with requirements You see fit. If I put 1k LI for raids and have people join it or 250 LI for all strikes run - It's none of your business. Make your own all welcome LFG have fun in the game the way you prefer. Thank you (:

State of the game in 2020: people actively whisper others to complain that they do not play the game in a specific way.

and they call raiders toxic...

@"Teratus.2859" said:But at the end of the day, If you don't match what a LFG is looking for though just

make your own

.. it's not hard.

Exactly.

Nobody is someone else's performance slave. If a player/commander wants only pink asura with curly hair in his squad, that's his decision. If you don't have a pink asura with curly hair, make your own squad.

Raiders are toxic though, it's why no one wants to get into raids because of the well earned reputation it has.

Why? Is it toxic when soneone wants to play with players of certain level of skill, they ask for that level of skill, you say you have that and then they see you dont?Because that is the most frequent argument I see in raids or strikes. Players that come so others will carry them and then they call others toxic when they dont want to.

its only toxic when they DON'T ask and start their behaviour where there was no preconditions set. That's the issue , not the straw-man argument about groups that define preconditions for joining a group, which isn't actually an issue at all. This OFTEN happens in pug raids.

I have ~1500 li and i would guess around double the kills. Like 1/5 of that was with pugs and I never so anything similar to what you are saying. And I mean never. I saw some people that joined and then didnt have what was required and insisted that they do. I saw much more people that joined and apologised that they dont have enough li/kp and 80% of time they were allowed to join. And if not noone was rude.

I dont know where you these toxic stories come from? I gues NA servers?My problem with players is never toxicity. It is just if they are failing too much. So then I leave. Maybe you think this is toxic? I have to say I dont know what toxic means anymore, just like feminism or racism, I think you are searching for something that isnt there

Maybe your lucky or maybe you don't see the toxic behaviour because you don't recognise it as being toxic.

Examples i've seen over the years (only talking about pug fractal and raid runs with no preconditions, i'e a casual run):

Poor Altruistic Behaviour:Reference to someones performance or build negatively (i.e being rude), may include reference to metersLeaving early because of wipes because they expect a flawless runTrying to rush the run despite of the team wishesImpatience with new or poorly performing players, i.e they are not going to become a good player in 1 run regardless of any 'coaching' or bullyingCalling wipe despite it being obvious the team wants to try and recover.Voting to kick someone because of performance.

With this imprecise definition, everyone can be called "toxic". What is a bad/good performance? What is a good timer to kill a boss?

Especially your first sentence "Reference to someones performance or build negatively" : with this, a training leader who analyse the performance and flaws of newbies and point it in order to help them improve is toxic oO.

I said Pug not training run. as for imprecise,you may not like it, but every one of these points are negative behaviours. And note its only raiders that dispute this , interesting eh

[Vilin.8056]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:Dungeons, strikes, raids - you name it, you literally have no power over me putting whatever I want in the LFG as long as it within the ToS. Every now and then some sad frog joins my squad or whispers me whenever I put up high-req LFG. Getting mad over the fact that I put my own LFG and have people join it anyway, baffles ms. Nobody is forcing You to join it. You can literally make your own LFG with requirements You see fit. If I put 1k LI for raids and have people join it or 250 LI for all strikes run - It's none of your business. Make your own all welcome LFG have fun in the game the way you prefer. Thank you (:

State of the game in 2020: people actively whisper others to complain that they do not play the game in a specific way.

and they call raiders toxic...

@"Teratus.2859" said:But at the end of the day, If you don't match what a LFG is looking for though just

make your own

.. it's not hard.

Exactly.

Nobody is someone else's performance slave. If a player/commander wants only pink asura with curly hair in his squad, that's his decision. If you don't have a pink asura with curly hair, make your own squad.

Raiders are toxic though, it's why no one wants to get into raids because of the well earned reputation it has.

Why? Is it toxic when soneone wants to play with players of certain level of skill, they ask for that level of skill, you say you have that and then they see you dont?Because that is the most frequent argument I see in raids or strikes. Players that come so others will carry them and then they call others toxic when they dont want to.

its only toxic when they DON'T ask and start their behaviour where there was no preconditions set. That's the issue , not the straw-man argument about groups that define preconditions for joining a group, which isn't actually an issue at all. This OFTEN happens in pug raids.

I have ~1500 li and i would guess around double the kills. Like 1/5 of that was with pugs and I never so anything similar to what you are saying. And I mean never. I saw some people that joined and then didnt have what was required and insisted that they do. I saw much more people that joined and apologised that they dont have enough li/kp and 80% of time they were allowed to join. And if not noone was rude.

I dont know where you these toxic stories come from? I gues NA servers?My problem with players is never toxicity. It is just if they are failing too much. So then I leave. Maybe you think this is toxic? I have to say I dont know what toxic means anymore, just like feminism or racism, I think you are searching for something that isnt there

Maybe your lucky or maybe you don't see the toxic behaviour because you don't recognise it as being toxic.

Examples i've seen over the years (only talking about pug fractal and raid runs with no preconditions, i'e a casual run):

Poor Altruistic Behaviour:Reference to someones performance or build negatively (i.e being rude), may include reference to metersLeaving early because of wipes because they expect a flawless runTrying to rush the run despite of the team wishesImpatience with new or poorly performing players, i.e they are not going to become a good player in 1 run regardless of any 'coaching' or bullyingCalling wipe despite it being obvious the team wants to try and recover.Voting to kick someone because of performance.

With this imprecise definition, everyone can be called "toxic". What is a bad/good performance? What is a good timer to kill a boss?

Especially your first sentence "Reference to someones performance or build negatively" : with this, a training leader who analyse the performance and flaws of newbies and point it in order to help them improve is toxic oO.

I said Pug not training run. as for imprecise,you may not like it, but every one of these points are negative behaviours. And note its only raiders that dispute this , interesting eh

Yes they are negative behaviours.

But they are also common amongeveryone, regardless of skill level or playstyle, when responding to non-contributing players in a game mode which is designed for team effort. Given set examples given by my mighty shaman thief who survives upon dead bodies of his fellow teamates, until the unenviable kick.

The situation is even inexcusable for inexperienced players not expect for a training by experienced party members in pug runs.

In many similar cases a message like "Hi I'm new to this, please let me know if there's something I should do to help the group" will avert many crisis.

Therefore, with your logic, those who were punished in these contents already possess a toxic behaviour, the only difference is that these players are on the losing side.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:Dungeons, strikes, raids - you name it, you literally have no power over me putting whatever I want in the LFG as long as it within the ToS. Every now and then some sad frog joins my squad or whispers me whenever I put up high-req LFG. Getting mad over the fact that I put my own LFG and have people join it anyway, baffles ms. Nobody is forcing You to join it. You can literally make your own LFG with requirements You see fit. If I put 1k LI for raids and have people join it or 250 LI for all strikes run - It's none of your business. Make your own all welcome LFG have fun in the game the way you prefer. Thank you (:

State of the game in 2020: people actively whisper others to complain that they do not play the game in a specific way.

and they call raiders toxic...

@"Teratus.2859" said:But at the end of the day, If you don't match what a LFG is looking for though just

make your own

.. it's not hard.

Exactly.

Nobody is someone else's performance slave. If a player/commander wants only pink asura with curly hair in his squad, that's his decision. If you don't have a pink asura with curly hair, make your own squad.

Raiders are toxic though, it's why no one wants to get into raids because of the well earned reputation it has.

Why? Is it toxic when soneone wants to play with players of certain level of skill, they ask for that level of skill, you say you have that and then they see you dont?Because that is the most frequent argument I see in raids or strikes. Players that come so others will carry them and then they call others toxic when they dont want to.

its only toxic when they DON'T ask and start their behaviour where there was no preconditions set. That's the issue , not the straw-man argument about groups that define preconditions for joining a group, which isn't actually an issue at all. This OFTEN happens in pug raids.

I have ~1500 li and i would guess around double the kills. Like 1/5 of that was with pugs and I never so anything similar to what you are saying. And I mean never. I saw some people that joined and then didnt have what was required and insisted that they do. I saw much more people that joined and apologised that they dont have enough li/kp and 80% of time they were allowed to join. And if not noone was rude.

I dont know where you these toxic stories come from? I gues NA servers?My problem with players is never toxicity. It is just if they are failing too much. So then I leave. Maybe you think this is toxic? I have to say I dont know what toxic means anymore, just like feminism or racism, I think you are searching for something that isnt there

Maybe your lucky or maybe you don't see the toxic behaviour because you don't recognise it as being toxic.

Examples i've seen over the years (only talking about pug fractal and raid runs with no preconditions, i'e a casual run):

Poor Altruistic Behaviour:Reference to someones performance or build negatively (i.e being rude), may include reference to metersLeaving early because of wipes because they expect a flawless runTrying to rush the run despite of the team wishesImpatience with new or poorly performing players, i.e they are not going to become a good player in 1 run regardless of any 'coaching' or bullyingCalling wipe despite it being obvious the team wants to try and recover.Voting to kick someone because of performance.

With this imprecise definition, everyone can be called "toxic". What is a bad/good performance? What is a good timer to kill a boss?

Especially your first sentence "Reference to someones performance or build negatively" : with this, a training leader who analyse the performance and flaws of newbies and point it in order to help them improve is toxic oO.

I said Pug not training run. as for imprecise,you may not like it, but every one of these points are negative behaviours. And note its only raiders that dispute this , interesting eh

You know, a lot of training runs are pug runs (at least in the lfg).As for negatives behaviors, i guess we just have different opinions on it (if someone tells me i'm doing wrong at something, i think it's ok as long as he don't insult me and brings some arguments..).As for the "only raiders that dispute this , interesting", i think it's more the ppl who do challenging (notion that depend on ppl though) content i.e raid, cm fractals (t4?), (wvw, pvp). Open world content is just too easy to need to look at performance and even there you can find toxicity (on some meta events).

Ah and also, what is for you a "casual raid run"? because i don't see any raid runs in the lfg with "no precondition"?There are always at least some roles to fill, and so some minimal performance expected, like a healer that heal for example (i know this is exaggerated but can happen with pugs).

[maddoctor.2738]

@Vilin.8056 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:Dungeons, strikes, raids - you name it, you literally have no power over me putting whatever I want in the LFG as long as it within the ToS. Every now and then some sad frog joins my squad or whispers me whenever I put up high-req LFG. Getting mad over the fact that I put my own LFG and have people join it anyway, baffles ms. Nobody is forcing You to join it. You can literally make your own LFG with requirements You see fit. If I put 1k LI for raids and have people join it or 250 LI for all strikes run - It's none of your business. Make your own all welcome LFG have fun in the game the way you prefer. Thank you (:

State of the game in 2020: people actively whisper others to complain that they do not play the game in a specific way.

and they call raiders toxic...

@"Teratus.2859" said:But at the end of the day, If you don't match what a LFG is looking for though just

make your own

.. it's not hard.

Exactly.

Nobody is someone else's performance slave. If a player/commander wants only pink asura with curly hair in his squad, that's his decision. If you don't have a pink asura with curly hair, make your own squad.

Raiders are toxic though, it's why no one wants to get into raids because of the well earned reputation it has.

Why? Is it toxic when soneone wants to play with players of certain level of skill, they ask for that level of skill, you say you have that and then they see you dont?Because that is the most frequent argument I see in raids or strikes. Players that come so others will carry them and then they call others toxic when they dont want to.

its only toxic when they DON'T ask and start their behaviour where there was no preconditions set. That's the issue , not the straw-man argument about groups that define preconditions for joining a group, which isn't actually an issue at all. This OFTEN happens in pug raids.

I have ~1500 li and i would guess around double the kills. Like 1/5 of that was with pugs and I never so anything similar to what you are saying. And I mean never. I saw some people that joined and then didnt have what was required and insisted that they do. I saw much more people that joined and apologised that they dont have enough li/kp and 80% of time they were allowed to join. And if not noone was rude.

I dont know where you these toxic stories come from? I gues NA servers?My problem with players is never toxicity. It is just if they are failing too much. So then I leave. Maybe you think this is toxic? I have to say I dont know what toxic means anymore, just like feminism or racism, I think you are searching for something that isnt there

Maybe your lucky or maybe you don't see the toxic behaviour because you don't recognise it as being toxic.

Examples i've seen over the years (only talking about pug fractal and raid runs with no preconditions, i'e a casual run):

Poor Altruistic Behaviour:Reference to someones performance or build negatively (i.e being rude), may include reference to metersLeaving early because of wipes because they expect a flawless runTrying to rush the run despite of the team wishesImpatience with new or poorly performing players, i.e they are not going to become a good player in 1 run regardless of any 'coaching' or bullyingCalling wipe despite it being obvious the team wants to try and recover.Voting to kick someone because of performance.

With this imprecise definition, everyone can be called "toxic". What is a bad/good performance? What is a good timer to kill a boss?

Especially your first sentence "Reference to someones performance or build negatively" : with this, a training leader who analyse the performance and flaws of newbies and point it in order to help them improve is toxic oO.

I said Pug not training run. as for imprecise,you may not like it, but every one of these points are negative behaviours. And note its only raiders that dispute this , interesting eh

Yes they are negative behaviours.

But they are also common amongeveryone, regardless of skill level or playstyle, when responding to non-contributing players in a game mode which is designed for team effort. Given set examples given by my mighty shaman thief who survives upon dead bodies of his fellow teamates, until the unenviable kick.

The situation is even inexcusable for inexperienced players not expect for a training by experienced party members in pug runs.

In many similar cases a message like "Hi I'm new to this, please let me know if there's something I should do to help the group" will avert many crisis.

Therefore, with your logic, those who were punished in these contents already possess a toxic behaviour, the only difference is that these players are on the losing side.

Once upon a time I was in a Raid squad getting ready to kill Slothasor. We made an LFG listing to get an experienced player to fill our last spot, no specific role needed we had all covered but still asked for "exp". Someone joined and said immediately "I'm not very experienced in this particular fight but I've done raiding in general". We got them along, killed the boss and threw a guild invite afterwards.

In another situation, it was a Wing 2 run, we reached Matthias. Took us a while that time because it was a pug run, so someone decided to leave. To be fair, as a pug run it did take a while to reach Matthias. So we created an LFG listing, to get someone to fill the last spot. Got a Staff Daredevil. The leader took some time to explain parts of the fights, considering it wasn't an experienced run (but not a training either, so not overly detailed explanations were given). Nobody had any questions so we charged in, the Thief just stood there auto-attacking Matthias, even when he was in his shield phase. Eventually they got the poison and instead of cleansing they stood there, on top of the boss, damaging all other melee attackers.

Once we, naturally, wiped. We asked that person if he understood what was typed just 5 minutes prior to starting. No response. Tried being polite and all, but the Thief was one of those "play how I want" brick walls, never responded so was kicked. I expected them to come on the forums and make a forum thread about Raid toxicity, we've seen threads like that for less. It was an "anyone welcome" group. It wasn't an "Experienced only" and it wasn't a "training run". Is that an excuse for someone to intentionally ruin a run? Are "anyone welcome" groups supposed to be trolled and taken advantage off by players who just join to do nothing? I don't think so, even the most casual/laid back groups should have their limits, and the Guild Wars 2 player base does test those limits all the time. Patience wears out eventually

Just throwing out here some raid experiences were communication is key and can avert all manner of problems.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:Dungeons, strikes, raids - you name it, you literally have no power over me putting whatever I want in the LFG as long as it within the ToS. Every now and then some sad frog joins my squad or whispers me whenever I put up high-req LFG. Getting mad over the fact that I put my own LFG and have people join it anyway, baffles ms. Nobody is forcing You to join it. You can literally make your own LFG with requirements You see fit. If I put 1k LI for raids and have people join it or 250 LI for all strikes run - It's none of your business. Make your own all welcome LFG have fun in the game the way you prefer. Thank you (:

State of the game in 2020: people actively whisper others to complain that they do not play the game in a specific way.

and they call raiders toxic...

@"Teratus.2859" said:But at the end of the day, If you don't match what a LFG is looking for though just

make your own

.. it's not hard.

Exactly.

Nobody is someone else's performance slave. If a player/commander wants only pink asura with curly hair in his squad, that's his decision. If you don't have a pink asura with curly hair, make your own squad.

Raiders are toxic though, it's why no one wants to get into raids because of the well earned reputation it has.

Why? Is it toxic when soneone wants to play with players of certain level of skill, they ask for that level of skill, you say you have that and then they see you dont?Because that is the most frequent argument I see in raids or strikes. Players that come so others will carry them and then they call others toxic when they dont want to.

its only toxic when they DON'T ask and start their behaviour where there was no preconditions set. That's the issue , not the straw-man argument about groups that define preconditions for joining a group, which isn't actually an issue at all. This OFTEN happens in pug raids.

I have ~1500 li and i would guess around double the kills. Like 1/5 of that was with pugs and I never so anything similar to what you are saying. And I mean never. I saw some people that joined and then didnt have what was required and insisted that they do. I saw much more people that joined and apologised that they dont have enough li/kp and 80% of time they were allowed to join. And if not noone was rude.

I dont know where you these toxic stories come from? I gues NA servers?My problem with players is never toxicity. It is just if they are failing too much. So then I leave. Maybe you think this is toxic? I have to say I dont know what toxic means anymore, just like feminism or racism, I think you are searching for something that isnt there

Maybe your lucky or maybe you don't see the toxic behaviour because you don't recognise it as being toxic.

Examples i've seen over the years (only talking about pug fractal and raid runs with no preconditions, i'e a casual run):

Poor Altruistic Behaviour:Reference to someones performance or build negatively (i.e being rude), may include reference to metersLeaving early because of wipes because they expect a flawless runTrying to rush the run despite of the team wishesImpatience with new or poorly performing players, i.e they are not going to become a good player in 1 run regardless of any 'coaching' or bullyingCalling wipe despite it being obvious the team wants to try and recover.Voting to kick someone because of performance.

With this imprecise definition, everyone can be called "toxic". What is a bad/good performance? What is a good timer to kill a boss?

Especially your first sentence "Reference to someones performance or build negatively" : with this, a training leader who analyse the performance and flaws of newbies and point it in order to help them improve is toxic oO.

I said Pug not training run. as for imprecise,you may not like it, but every one of these points are negative behaviours. And note its only raiders that dispute this , interesting eh

And original comment for reference:

Maybe your lucky or maybe you don't see the toxic behaviour because you don't recognise it as being toxic.

Examples i've seen over the years (only talking about pug fractal and raid runs with no preconditions, i'e a casual run):

Poor Altruistic Behaviour:Reference to someones performance or build negatively (i.e being rude), may include reference to metersLeaving early because of wipes because they expect a flawless runTrying to rush the run despite of the team wishesImpatience with new or poorly performing players, i.e they are not going to become a good player in 1 run regardless of any 'coaching' or bullyingCalling wipe despite it being obvious the team wants to try and recover.Voting to kick someone because of performance.

Some of the things you mentioned can be toxic, yush, but many of those are things you call toxic in a casual pug run would be toxic in a training run but not really in any run expecting a kill. Most of the experienced people who join a non-training run are there with a killing intent and for them casual just means being less strict about the comp requirements and safer strats. If you want to avoid such toxic behaviour from them, you better write "WX casual run LF X. Don't expect a kill." so people are on same map about expectations and people who want a kill in relatively timely fashion know to stay away or if they join, they'll accept the fact that kill mightn't happen.

As for invidual points about poor altruistic behaviour in a run aiming to kill the boss:

1. One can take a rude or polite approach about it and the player to be taught can either take a defending "don't tell how to play. That's rude and toxic!" - stance or "thanks for the tips! Taking them into consideration." - stance. Obviously the latter is lot nicer to deal with and may actually improve with those tips. Kitty's occasionally given a few tiny tips to players of latter stance with poor performance and then those tips have helped them play at almost average level.Performance-wise, certain level of performance is required to kill the bosses. Some bosses have minimum of 45-50k total boss dps (including splits and phases) and others have 80-100k. That very minimum isn't the minimum for the dps when you're hitting the boss in W1, W3, Sam+Deimos, W6 and W7 as any time the boss is invulnerable means less time to hit the boss.For ex. if phases/splits take 30% of the boss fight at a boss with 50k dps requirement, the squad dps requirement during burns is 71k. And that means squad members should do avg. 7,1k dps each during burns. However, healers usually do 1,5-2,5k dps and in this case, they'd do 1,5k. In this example we have 2 healers, 2 dps/booners with 50% of dpser's dps (so together they're worth 1 dps) and 6 dps. 71k - 3k (healers) = 68k. 68k / 7 (dpsers) = 9,7k dps per dpser required during burns. And this dps must be done through the mechanics so failing the mechs and people getting downed rises the bar even higher. Dead squad members and lacking boonseven more so.As it should be clear from that example, there's a reason why people have a certain threshold. It's not out of sheer toxicity but of bosses requiring it. Ofc 2 top-tier dpsers could do 3 dpser's worth dps each to carry the squad but Kitty can tell from experience that doing so in every squad doesn't feel nice. (which is one of the reasons why Kitty dislikes always playing meta dps builds at easier bosses) Thus, if you have a not-so-well performing friend in clear run, expect to perform higher to compensate for your friend.
2. In a non-training run, consistently wiping before 50% is quite a quick sign that the squad is unlikely to kill the boss anytime soon and if an experienced player joins what is supposed to be a wing clear doesn't have time and patience for spending 1,5hrs per boss, they leave after a few wipes. And let Kitty just say that spending half a night in squads that don't get any kills gets quite frustrating instead of fun.In a training run, exp player might join for a few tries to help out but doesn't have time for more.
3. That's quite annoying, yush. Kitty usually takes a moment to get gears from bank and buy food if she's joining a run as a support and writing "coming, coming" continously doesn't make it faster.
4. If the squad as whole is doing borderline enough dps and there's a random dpser who deals healer-tier dps in a non-training run dragging the total dps below the success threshold, the options are A. to help fix the build and give tips to help them get above the threshold. B. Friends of this lowly dpser stepping up their dps game to compensate. C. Kick the low-performing dps to make room for someone good enough to pull the squad over the bar. D. Kick this toxic person and find someone stronger than the toxic person to compensate further. E. Same D but find a less potent dps than the toxic person and wipe 'til you disband.Though even then, there's a polite and rude approach to it.
5. In a non-training run where the chance of success has fallen below 0, doing what you're suggesting instead of /gg IS training, you can't really deny that. Trying to recover past the point of recovery just means you're either wasting time or/and taking extra bit of practise.
6. If it's a fully random squad and there's someone doing 5k dps while others are doing multiple times more, it gets quite clear who's being carried and if there's some mechanic that requires somewhat even dps from both subs (for ex. Xera towers, Largos Twins), that one bad dps can cause wiping to sheer imbalance. If the squad is ok with someone essentially getting carried, they can silence the "KICK EET" or kick the low or noisy one and find someone better-suited for the squad.

E: Kitty forgot to add, related to topic, that she's seen lots of people lately who join the run as totally wrong role compared to what Kitty is asking for and throw a fit when Kitty kicks them. Seeing how common it has become lately, it's probably small wonder if commanders are a bit on the edge after having to kick multiple peoples in the row and set LFG up again and again for last spot because of those people. And obviously those people then cry about raiders being toxic. Unfortunately even training runs have certain requirements to deal with mechanics. Just yesterday Kitty personally had to kick 3 players in a row from training when she was looking for a condi dps for VG for quite hot-red obvious reasons. (And Kitty even included "know the mechs as done explaining" in LFG) for whatever reason especially DHs don't seem to read LFG's as it's pretty muc DH in 50% of cases where Kitty needs to kick for that reason, no idea why

[Cyndercat.7615]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:Dungeons, strikes, raids - you name it, you literally have no power over me putting whatever I want in the LFG as long as it within the ToS. Every now and then some sad frog joins my squad or whispers me whenever I put up high-req LFG. Getting mad over the fact that I put my own LFG and have people join it anyway, baffles ms. Nobody is forcing You to join it. You can literally make your own LFG with requirements You see fit. If I put 1k LI for raids and have people join it or 250 LI for all strikes run - It's none of your business. Make your own all welcome LFG have fun in the game the way you prefer. Thank you (:

State of the game in 2020: people actively whisper others to complain that they do not play the game in a specific way.

and they call raiders toxic...

@Teratus.2859 said:But at the end of the day, If you don't match what a LFG is looking for though just

make your own

.. it's not hard.

Exactly.

Nobody is someone else's performance slave. If a player/commander wants only pink asura with curly hair in his squad, that's his decision. If you don't have a pink asura with curly hair, make your own squad.

Raiders are toxic though, it's why no one wants to get into raids because of the well earned reputation it has.

Why? Is it toxic when soneone wants to play with players of certain level of skill, they ask for that level of skill, you say you have that and then they see you dont?Because that is the most frequent argument I see in raids or strikes. Players that come so others will carry them and then they call others toxic when they dont want to.

its only toxic when they DON'T ask and start their behaviour where there was no preconditions set. That's the issue , not the straw-man argument about groups that define preconditions for joining a group, which isn't actually an issue at all. This OFTEN happens in pug raids.

I have ~1500 li and i would guess around double the kills. Like 1/5 of that was with pugs and I never so anything similar to what you are saying. And I mean never. I saw some people that joined and then didnt have what was required and insisted that they do. I saw much more people that joined and apologised that they dont have enough li/kp and 80% of time they were allowed to join. And if not noone was rude.

I dont know where you these toxic stories come from? I gues NA servers?My problem with players is never toxicity. It is just if they are failing too much. So then I leave. Maybe you think this is toxic? I have to say I dont know what toxic means anymore, just like feminism or racism, I think you are searching for something that isnt there

Maybe your lucky or maybe you don't see the toxic behaviour because you don't recognise it as being toxic.

Examples i've seen over the years (only talking about pug fractal and raid runs with no preconditions, i'e a casual run):

Poor Altruistic Behaviour:Reference to someones performance or build negatively (i.e being rude), may include reference to metersLeaving early because of wipes because they expect a flawless runTrying to rush the run despite of the team wishesImpatience with new or poorly performing players, i.e they are not going to become a good player in 1 run regardless of any 'coaching' or bullyingCalling wipe despite it being obvious the team wants to try and recover.Voting to kick someone because of performance.

Telling someone in a dps role they are doing 3k dmg and need to improve that is less toxic than the player who joins with 0 knowledge of how to play the game and expects others to cover their poor performance for them. (training runs being the exception)

Leaving a run is less toxic than expecting people to be forced to spend hours of their time failing due to others mistakes.

Quite honestly I see you as far more toxic, thinking you are entitled to peoples time for your own gain. Even in casual groups neither of these is OK.

[Mad Queen Malafide.7512]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:So no, your assumption that being adequate is in any where near "best of the best levels" is incorrect. No one is looking for that in public groups.

What I was saying, is that when people ask for LI for a strike mission, they are asking for raid level experience, for something that is not close to that level of difficulty. You don't need people with raid experience to do Shiverpeak Pass. It's a boss that can be killed by just pressing 1 and not dodging any attacks.

For Whisper of Jormag or Boneskinner it makes a little bit more sense. But even then, it would make more sense to ask for people who have done those missions before.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:So no, your assumption that being adequate is in any where near "best of the best levels" is incorrect. No one is looking for that in public groups.

What I was saying, is that when people ask for LI for a strike mission, they are asking for raid level experience, for something that is not close to that level of difficulty. You don't need people with raid experience to do Shiverpeak Pass. It's a boss that can be killed by just pressing 1 and not dodging any attacks.

For Whisper of Jormag or Boneskinner it makes a little bit more sense. But even then, it would make more sense to ask for people who have done those missions before.

Most groups that ask for LI do full runs. I can't recall any LFG in the last 5-6 weeks which was asking for LI and did not have FC in it, or was looking specifically for whisper or boneskinner.

Whisper and Boneskinner are near lower to mid raid level difficulty, with worse: mechanics which can screw the entire squad (which are not present with every raid boss).

Some groups also ask for fractal KP, or accept those as well. The overall demand for LI/ESS/KP is very low. This indicates that the demand is for minimal understanding of proper approach to group content:

• boons
• stacking/positioning
• roles specific performance

As such, as mentioned by me: the bar to clear or expected experience is very low. Absolutely not any where near top level performance. Yes, ideally one could ask for experience with a boss and every person joining brings this experience. Unfortunately, as is also the case with LI/KP/ESS/etc. there are enough players who are more than willing to lie and fake their way into groups.

I do agree though, groups that go for Grothmar, Fraenir and Twins asking for LI are overkill. Yet even there, it's the groups/commanders decision to make.

[Sykper.6583]

Definitely think Anet should apply a small notification, like 0-5 stars, on Strike mission difficulties. Even a visual note like that can give random players of various level an idea of what a particular strike is asking for from a random group.

I'm even leaning on having it for Raids...leaning though, mainly because raids are a step above Strikes as a whole, if you were to compare the two contents in large.

[Firebeard.1746]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:People asking for LI requirements for Strike Missions are being stupid. This isn't a raid.

And? You mean they dont know that it isnt raid? How is that relevant to asking for Li? I think it is quite smart when your goal is to play with someone who played decent amout of raids.

It's like asking for the army to resolve a domestic dispute.

You are raising a super high bar and asking for the best of the best, to do content that is really not all that difficult at all. So all you are really doing is excluding players.

This is actually incorrect, but many less experienced players don't understand why. The requirements setup for many groups are not asking for "the best of the best". Far from it.

There is a multitude of players and skill levels for instanced content, both for fractals as well as raids or any other content which requires group compositions. Most PUG or normal LFG groups ask for somewhere between minimum and acceptable levels of performance. Even the 500-750 LI and above groups accept a varying degree of performance, obviously on a higher than average level, but no where near top performance.

The problem is:Most players with less experience assume that the bare minimum or acceptable skill is already high. That is not the case. Take a look at some optimized speedrun kills, or last years Elitist Raiding Party 3 tournament, THAT'S top level of play. Unfortunately, the skill level for many inexperienced players drops far below acceptable levels even beyond the lenience most groups are willing to extend on average levels of performance.

So no, your assumption that being adequate is in any where near "best of the best levels" is incorrect. No one is looking for that in public groups.

I disagree with this. Most pugs ask for high bar, not bare minimum. When i was asking if my engi could dps in raids, i was told i'd be kicked from pug groups with less than 25k. Just cleared soulless horror on a community run, only 2 of our dps were around that. Most Pugs, especially the ones with stringent clear requirements are asking for a raid that won't possibly take more than 1 attempt.

I agree with sentiment that there's an entire range in terms of "acceptable" but the community as a whole refuses to realize this. If they did, this discussion wouldn't be happening. This is not a raid only issue, but i feel like it happens more in raid lfgs.

[Tukaram.8256]

@Krzysztof.5973 said:...If I put 1k LI for raids and have people join it or 250 LI for all strikes run...

I do not even know what language that is ha ha... I am pretty sure I would not meet the qualifications. But you have every right to set up your group as you see fit (within the TOS). I would not even think to complain if I did not meet someone's requirements. I would just look for another group, or start my own.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:People asking for LI requirements for Strike Missions are being stupid. This isn't a raid.

And? You mean they dont know that it isnt raid? How is that relevant to asking for Li? I think it is quite smart when your goal is to play with someone who played decent amout of raids.

It's like asking for the army to resolve a domestic dispute.

You are raising a super high bar and asking for the best of the best, to do content that is really not all that difficult at all. So all you are really doing is excluding players.

This is actually incorrect, but many less experienced players don't understand why. The requirements setup for many groups are not asking for "the best of the best". Far from it.

There is a multitude of players and skill levels for instanced content, both for fractals as well as raids or any other content which requires group compositions. Most PUG or normal LFG groups ask for somewhere between minimum and acceptable levels of performance. Even the 500-750 LI and above groups accept a varying degree of performance, obviously on a higher than average level, but no where near top performance.

The problem is:Most players with less experience assume that the bare minimum or acceptable skill is already high. That is not the case. Take a look at some optimized speedrun kills, or last years Elitist Raiding Party 3 tournament, THAT'S top level of play. Unfortunately, the skill level for many inexperienced players drops far below acceptable levels even beyond the lenience most groups are willing to extend on average levels of performance.

So no, your assumption that being adequate is in any where near "best of the best levels" is incorrect. No one is looking for that in public groups.

I disagree with this. Most pugs ask for high bar, not bare minimum. When i was asking if my engi could dps in raids, i was told i'd be kicked from pug groups with less than 25k. Just cleared soulless horror on a community run, only 2 of our dps were around that. Most Pugs, especially the ones with stringent clear requirements are asking for a raid that won't possibly take more than 1 attempt.

Told by who? I can guarantee you, a huge amount of players don't reach 25k benchmarks (on golem) in PUG groups of medium level, even less on actual boss encounters. From all those, even fewer actually re-log to different classes based on boss. This was very evident back when GW2raidar was still available as clear data summary collection.

SH and many bosses have lower than golem real damage due to phases and mechanics. The 2 bosses closest to the golem are Cairn and MO in Wing 4. Those 2 guys who did 25k on SH I guarantee you are at least 30k or above on the golem. Please do not confuse those 2 damage performances.

Yes it is advisable to be around 25k or better on golem with classes, to be taken serious as a dps. It is no where near needed nor widely spread and most players in average groups don't reach that benchmark. The problem is not with players who can't hit 25k, but are near it, it has always been with players who can't even hit 10k or less on damage roles. The later are very widely spread and almost always from players lacking preparation and experience (aka every new raider).

As far as stringent requirements:This has been stated in the past, the LFG is not the only way to get into raid groups. It is one aspect of it and yes, with a bunch of strangers who don't know each other, willingness to accept failure is lower. In general, PUG groups expect experience with the boss as far as to not fail basic mechanics while being able to perform your role to an acceptable level.

and we are back to my good old: find a guild or raiding community before engaging with the LFG.

@Firebeard.1746 said:I agree with sentiment that there's an entire range in terms of "acceptable" but the community as a whole refuses to realize this. If they did, this discussion wouldn't be happening. This is not a raid only issue, but i feel like it happens more in raid lfgs.

Which community? The raid community as a whole? The game's entire community?

The most important aspect to raiding is and always has been: understanding. Understanding of how group content plays. Understanding of mechanics. Understanding of visual information and reacting to it.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Firebeard.1746" said:I disagree with this. Most pugs ask for high bar, not bare minimum. When i was asking if my engi could dps in raids, i was told i'd be kicked from pug groups with less than 25k.Whoever told you that, told you wrong, unless they meant the golem damage, not actual on-boss raid one. And even then, the pugs obviously wouldn't know what your numbers on the golem were. All that it matters in pugs is for you to:

1. don't run something that would be immediately noticed as a potential problem (i.e. not fulfilling LF requirements, or, say, weird subpar weapon choices that will let everyone know that whatever you're running is very far from meta)
2. don't do dps on a level that is clearly below what the others are doing (and even then it might not be a problem if the run is otherwise fine, unless you have some truly shockingly low numbers)
3. don't be rude
4. don't be incommunicative if a communication is required
5. do the mechanicsfulfill all those, and in 99% of cases you will be fine.Just cleared soulless horror on a community run, only 2 of our dps were around that.That's normal of pug runs. Like i said, dps on boss and dps on golem are not the same thing, and practically noone is expecting people to perform close to the golem benchmarks on bosses.Most Pugs, especially the ones with stringent clear requirements are asking for a raid that won't possibly take more than 1 attempt.Yes. Wiping is not fun. Most pugs will tolerate one wipe, but start to wipe on more frequent basis and people will get angry about it. The only exception to this are runs clearly labeled as training, as noone should actually expect a kill on those.Notice also, that if the reason for wiping can be clearly attributed to a sole player, especially with a repeat performance, that will get commented/acted on. Even in training runs.

I agree with sentiment that there's an entire range in terms of "acceptable" but the community as a whole refuses to realize this. If they did, this discussion wouldn't be happening. This is not a raid only issue, but i feel like it happens more in raid lfgs.It's not that the communiy refuses to realize this. It's that the community realizes that people are going to perform way below the asked for expectations anyway, so it's better to set them intentionally higher. At least this way there's a higher chance of getting something that will work out.

People generally prefer to play along people of similar skill and experience. This may be offset if other players are friends, but in pugs they usually aren't. Having to constantly carry others is not fun. Being in a group with players that you know are far better than you, and who know they are carrying you is not fun either, unless you have some very thick skin (which is, by the way, one of the reasons why different difficulty modes and separating players of different skill levels is usually a good idea).

[Firebeard.1746]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Which community? The raid community as a whole? The game's entire community?

The most important aspect to raiding is and always has been: understanding. Understanding of how group content plays. Understanding of mechanics. Understanding of visual information and reacting to it.

I mostly mean the PuG community in LFG. I for the most part refuse to join raid lfgs for this reason. Am debating what to do about my plans on t4 fractals from here because my understanding is it's all glass cannons except healbrand.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Which community? The raid community as a whole? The game's entire community?

The most important aspect to raiding is and always has been: understanding. Understanding of how group content plays. Understanding of mechanics. Understanding of visual information and reacting to it.

I mostly mean the PuG community in LFG. I for the most part refuse to join raid lfgs for this reason.But a lot of your comments do not really apply to the "pug community" in LFG. Did you consider that, at least some of your bad opinions might be based on unsubstantiated hearsay that you never verified, because you never even tried to?

I mean, i'm not a great fan of raids and raiding in general (and especially of the impact of the "raid mindset" on the rest of the game), but even for me some of your opinions about raid PUGs seem to be more of a distorted view of it rather than an accurate description.

[Firebeard.1746]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Firebeard.1746 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Which community? The raid community as a whole? The game's entire community?

The most important aspect to raiding is and always has been: understanding. Understanding of how group content plays. Understanding of mechanics. Understanding of visual information and reacting to it.

I mostly mean the PuG community in LFG. I for the most part refuse to join raid lfgs for this reason.But a lot of your comments do not really apply to the "pug community" in LFG. Did you consider that, at least some of your bad opinions might be based on unsubstantiated hearsay that you never verified, because you never even tried to?

I mean, i'm not a great fan of raids and raiding in general (and especially of the impact of the "raid mindset" on the rest of the game), but even for me some of your opinions about raid PUGs seem to be more of a distorted view of it rather than an accurate description.

Most of the requirements i see in lfg are ridiculous enough for me not to disbelieve them, and as far as t4 fractals go, i trust my guild mates

The whole premise of this thread is someone defending their ridiculous lfgs and you're telling me i'm crazy for believing it's normal lol.

I've seen similar attitudes in strikes as well. It's not like i've never worked with the community before. Literally after tons of people wipe to mechanics on whisper "if you dps isn't 10k, don't join as dps" and kicked people. I was the healer. The run didn't succeed. And it wasn't because of dps. I never vet my member's dps when i start runs and usually if i have the right healers, we always succeed.