Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Roaming // Condi builds forcing us to sacrifice crucial build elements for cleanse uptime


solemn.9670

Recommended Posts

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@God.2708 said:Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

You're totally right, trade offs are required. That is at the core of balance. But I struggle to find the trade offs for using dire/tb/minstrels. You don't lose dmg (or support ability for minstrels), you don't lose toughness, you don't lose hp. You're gotten away with countering builds (such as burst builds) that are supposed to combat yours without actually making a concession.

I'm not against condi I'm against stat sets being no brainer decisions. There are reasons dire/tb/minstrels don't exist in spvp, and it's not because spvpers don't know how to properly counter builds.

There's a lot of nobrain sets for all roles.

This. Most roles only make a decision between 2-3 statcombos, condi tbh has one of the more interesting decision making when it comes to builds as expertise is capped and finding out what combo of dire/tb is ideal takes some math.

TB/Dire(/apothecary/settler) for condi

Minstrel/Nomad(/giver) for support

Marauder/Berserker(/a few extremely niche combos including crusader, diviner and valkyrie)

Only combinations we lack IMO

  • Power, Precision, Vitality
  • Power, Ferocity, Precision, Vitality
  • Precision, Condition Damage, Vitality, Expertise

Imo we miss a lot more statcombos that would be awesome to have

Demolisher

Marauder but with healing power instead of vit

Marauder but with small conc instead of vit (not diviner)

Above but with big fero instead of big preci

Big vit TB (instead of tough)

TB with healing power instead of vit

TB with healing power instead of tough

Condi+Healing Power+Expertise+Conc

A ton more that I can't think of right now that would be amazing for all kinds of builds.

Imo the game should just allow us to make our own somehow, would require a bit of a rework of the crafting system I suppose but the result seems worth it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 103
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

@"SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026" said:

@God.2708 said:Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

You're totally right, trade offs are required. That is at the core of balance. But I struggle to find the trade offs for using dire/tb/minstrels. You don't lose dmg (or support ability for minstrels), you don't lose toughness, you don't lose hp. You're gotten away with countering builds (such as burst builds) that are supposed to combat yours without actually making a concession.

I'm not against condi I'm against stat sets being no brainer decisions. There are reasons dire/tb/minstrels don't exist in spvp, and it's not because spvpers don't know how to properly counter builds.

There's a lot of nobrain sets for all roles.

This. Most roles only make a decision between 2-3 statcombos, condi tbh has one of the more interesting decision making when it comes to builds as expertise is capped and finding out what combo of dire/tb is ideal takes some math.

TB/Dire(/apothecary/settler) for condi

Minstrel/Nomad(/giver) for support

Marauder/Berserker(/a few extremely niche combos including crusader, diviner and valkyrie)

Only combinations we lack IMO
  • Power, Precision, Vitality
  • Power, Ferocity, Precision, Vitality
  • Precision, Condition Damage, Vitality, Expertise

Imo we miss a lot more statcombos that would be awesome to have

Demolisher

Marauder but with healing power instead of vit

Marauder but with small conc instead of vit (not diviner)

Above but with big fero instead of big preci

Big vit TB (instead of tough)

TB with healing power instead of vit

TB with healing power instead of tough

Condi+Healing Power+Expertise+Conc

A ton more that I can't think of right now that would be amazing for all kinds of builds.

Imo the game should just allow us to make our own somehow, would require a bit of a rework of the crafting system I suppose but the result seems worth it.

Anet's been reluctant with adding new combinations. And with the removal of amulets in PvP, I doubt we see such thing soon.Maybe with 3rd expansion, they'll introduce 5 stats gear (2 major + 3 minor) so defensive stats as minor are kept lower.Exemple : +1064 Power, +1064 Precision, +578 Ferocity, +578 Vitality, +578 Concentration

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Comus.7365" said:i'd say torment is the only condi worth keeping since it has counterplay.

All conditions have counterplay. In fact, it's the same counterplay as for power damage. That is, dodge, block, invuln, or reflect the skill that applies the condi.

As with power damage, the key is knowing which to mitigate and which to allow through. The game doesn't do a good job of telling you this though, because when you die the combat report just says "10k Torment".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@"SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026" said:

@God.2708 said:Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

You're totally right, trade offs are required. That is at the core of balance. But I struggle to find the trade offs for using dire/tb/minstrels. You don't lose dmg (or support ability for minstrels), you don't lose toughness, you don't lose hp. You're gotten away with countering builds (such as burst builds) that are supposed to combat yours without actually making a concession.

I'm not against condi I'm against stat sets being no brainer decisions. There are reasons dire/tb/minstrels don't exist in spvp, and it's not because spvpers don't know how to properly counter builds.

There's a lot of nobrain sets for all roles.

This. Most roles only make a decision between 2-3 statcombos, condi tbh has one of the more interesting decision making when it comes to builds as expertise is capped and finding out what combo of dire/tb is ideal takes some math.

TB/Dire(/apothecary/settler) for condi

Minstrel/Nomad(/giver) for support

Marauder/Berserker(/a few extremely niche combos including crusader, diviner and valkyrie)

Only combinations we lack IMO
  • Power, Precision, Vitality
  • Power, Ferocity, Precision, Vitality
  • Precision, Condition Damage, Vitality, Expertise

Imo we miss a lot more statcombos that would be awesome to have

Demolisher

Marauder but with healing power instead of vit

Marauder but with small conc instead of vit (not diviner)

Above but with big fero instead of big preci

Big vit TB (instead of tough)

TB with healing power instead of vit

TB with healing power instead of tough

Condi+Healing Power+Expertise+Conc

A ton more that I can't think of right now that would be amazing for all kinds of builds.

Imo the game should just allow us to make our own somehow, would require a bit of a rework of the crafting system I suppose but the result seems worth it.

Anet's been reluctant with adding new combinations. And with the removal of amulets in PvP, I doubt we see such thing soon.

Would be a shame, limiting start combinations imo feels like such poor balancing. Especially for WvW.

Maybe with 3rd expansion, they'll introduce 5 stats gear (2 major + 3 minor) so defensive stats as minor are kept lower.Exemple : +1064 Power, +1064 Precision, +578 Ferocity, +578 Vitality, +578 Concentration

I would love 5 stats been thinking about it a lot myself, with like ~15% more stats than 3 stats (4 stat is ~10%)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

I have yet to see a single ele roaming in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:I typed a long detailed post and decided to delete it because condi-mains will just reply with "jUsT cLeanSe JuSt DoDgE" regardless. You can't fix people like that and I won't try to change their minds.

Fact of the matter: condi is OP and every competent player who wants to win at least 8/10 matchups is forced to run a build with antitoxin rune, or lose every time vs condi mirage, core necro, occasionally to burn guard, and condi rev (to an even lesser degree). There is simply not enough condi cleanse in the game to deal with these builds without specifically building against them (i.e. antitoxin fire weaver), sacrificing crucial traits that would be of value vs power enemies or forcing certain builds and decreasing build diversity/overall fun of the game...

overpowered builds are overpowered, enough said. please don't take half a year to patch this.

-solemn

@Helly.2597 said:

@God.2708 said:Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

You're totally right, trade offs are required. That is at the core of balance. But I struggle to find the trade offs for using dire/tb/minstrels. You don't lose dmg (or support ability for minstrels), you don't lose toughness, you don't lose hp. You're gotten away with countering builds (such as burst builds) that are supposed to combat yours without actually making a concession.

I'm not against condi I'm against stat sets being no brainer decisions. There are reasons dire/tb/minstrels don't exist in spvp, and it's not because spvpers don't know how to properly counter builds.

It's as much an issue of power stats doing next to nothing for condi builds. What other stat set is there to take for condi? Hybrid doesn't work. You can't usually design builds that can make use of both without giving up more of one just to have the other. And if you somehow force those stats onto condi, condi is worthless because it's still damage over time that can be cleansed which will always lose the glass cannon battle. What you would need are stats that can support both, while also supporting some degree of passive defense to facilitate partial reliance on damage over time. Just not full on passive stats like dire/tb. I don't know how you make it work without reinventing the wheel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Helly.2597 said:

@God.2708 said:Isn't this as much a paradigm issue? Rock Paper Scissors me here, dude above me is saying condition builds are using full dire/tb which strikes me as a tremendous build 'sacrifice' because they're having to build explicitly to last against more bursty power specs that potentially roam in pairs or trios. If they have to make that build sacrifice then why shouldn't you have to make a sacrifice to deal with them? Given the sandbox nature of WvW it seems incredible neurotic to expect a single build to work in the majority of situations. If you can build to counter them, and the counter works without making TO MUCH sacrifice, IMO things are working as intended.

If the sacrifice is to much and that is your issue, carry on!

You're totally right, trade offs are required. That is at the core of balance. But I struggle to find the trade offs for using dire/tb/minstrels. You don't lose dmg (or support ability for minstrels), you don't lose toughness, you don't lose hp. You're gotten away with countering builds (such as burst builds) that are supposed to combat yours without actually making a concession.

The trade-off for minstrel is fairly simply that you do very close to 0 dmg.

The trade-off for dire/TB builds is GENERALLY a lack of burst, there's a few exceptions to this, most notably burnguard, condi mes and condi thief. One of which has very close to 0 mobility, sustain and CC, the other 2 which are about as annoying as their power counterparts.

Condi builds overall get to play with stronger statcombos because there's a lot more counterplay to it, even in full toughness gear and protection on, many power skills can still hit 5-6k crits on you, sometimes even higher (even after nerfs). The only counterplay is essentially avoidance.

Condi has a very large amount of counterplay, with clears being the most obvious one. Against condi one can simply hit weapon swap (or holomode/legend swap/attunement etc) and negate a very large portion of their dmg. The counterplay options are avoidance, cleansing and resistance.

I'm not against condi I'm against stat sets being no brainer decisions. There are reasons dire/tb/minstrels don't exist in spvp, and it's not because spvpers don't know how to properly counter builds.

Tbf sPvP is a very low power environment with a very specific goal (ie standing on nodes)

Ascended level weapon damage is too strong.

Marauder stats are too strong

Viper stats are too strong.

Soldier stats are too strong lmfao.

Even cleric is too strong.

Close to every single rune is too strong.

Cleansing Sigil is too strong.

Energy Sigil is too strong.

Even bad sigils like force is too strong for sPvP.

That something is too strong for sPvP does not mean that it's too strong for WvW.

There's a lot less counter options available for sPvP, if they were to introduce only Dire/TB in sPvP it would ofc be a disaster, if they were to introduce the rest of WvW balancing who knows. Probably still bad as the gamemode revolves around standing on a little point, something which tanky builds excel at compared to the open field fights of WvW.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In WvW right now there are specs that are virtually immune to direct dmg a combination of high boon uptime and unnerfed sustain traitlines compared to PvP plus nerfed direct dmg...makes some specs practically impossible to kill with direct dmg alone.

Condi dmg is necessary to balance out the immense sustain powercreep some classes in WvW still enjoy :

engineerrangernecro

These 3 above have innate sustain , can have access to long term boons on top medium-high base HP....condi is most times the only answer to them

Thief-rev

High defense against power spike with block/teleports and stealth in thief case...again condi is the only answer to avoid any further delay ; my point is that any nerf to condi dmg must be accompanied by nerfs to sustain for some specs, typically they ones I have mentioned

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

"Very sustainy ele" ???? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......what game are you playing? GW2 on servers with 2013 version?. If there is a very sustainy ele build in wvw....when playing boonbeast...I should be reported for hacking xd

Good lord...they are hundreds of necros per map...every day in wvw...with the occasional Tempest playing with zergs....there are bloody hundreds of necros and this guy talk about "very sustainy ele"..just what in the name of all is holy is going on?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The time was we had people here posting screenshots of death breakdowns to various builds in PvP. They would show a chart where they died to 20000 power damage and then others where they died to 80000 and more condition damage. They would then suggest that this proved Condition damage OP. In reality it was exactly the opposite.

Most people have only around 20k HPS . If you die to a power build with 22000 power point damage while it takes 80000 condition damage to kill you, this generally shows that there are more counters to Condition damage. You can not take 80000 in damage and still live unless there are counters and those counters are cleanses and heals forcing the condition player to start applying those stacks again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ArlAlt.1630 said:Ok now that I have some more time to go in depth.@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" Which class is it that you play that you feel forced to run Antitoxin, cuz let's have a little look at what condi cleanse classes have available across the spectrum.

Mesmer: I would have to login to double check but off the top of my head I currently run 20-22 cleanses over the first 30 secs of the fight, should the need arise, which is never because that's 3 full condi bombs cleansed.

Warrior: You get 10-16 condis cleansed over the first 30 secs and that's without investing too much into it, you could go way more if you really wanna build for it.

Ranger: You get 10-16 condis cleansed over the first 30 secs by playing the standard wilderness survival/BM build. If you go druid that number goes astronomically high.

Engineer: If you make use of your fields (toolbelt and conjured weapons) and finishers you can cleanse an insane amount of condi, I don't think I'm able to make an educated guess without spending time looking at it. But think Upward of 15.

Guardian: This one doesn't need any consideration, anyone that has played the game for more than 2 days, can tell you this guy is your boy when condi is present, best part his is AoE.

Elementalist: Tricky, depending on build it could have insane cleanse potential or close to none.Edit: I just got back from my Ele guy. Without going overboard you can get 15 cleanses in the first 30 secs of a fight, no Antitoxin runes, no Cleansing sigil.

Necromancer: Decent arsenal of impactful cleansing/transfer options available in the base kit. Needs no further consideration, maybe Reaper is on the lower end? Though again you can probably slot in enough condi cleanse without having to resort to Antitoxin runes, which is what you claim is required.

Thief: If you're a Daredevil, literally all you have to do is pick escapist fortitude and shadowstep and you're already borderline never going to have a problem with condi. For the others slotting Signet of Agility and 1-2 cleansing sigil(s) is more than sufficient to put you in good standing to where you'll never need to slot Antitoxin runes.

Revenant: I have a feeling this is where the bread winner is gonna be, Power Shiro has always had lackluster cleanse options, however the not so recent changes to cleansing sigil made them fair much better. Power Shiro is a glass cannon kill or be killed kind of spec that has active defense options to sustain itself for the duration of the fight. Yes it doesn't do well against heavy condi pressure, but no build is good against everything. This is prolly the only build I'd say requires double cleansing in the current meta.On the other hand, if you look at Malyx Rev, practically immune to condi.

Was that 9? I believe it was. Now to summarize, every single class in the game has options to build for more than enough condi cleanse, to deal with just about any situation that isn't a blob full of pulsing AoE and that is fine, that's why you have your resident Mender FBs to compound cleanse the blob, but your title says "roaming" so we'll just ignore that point altogether. The only build and I do say build as it's not representative of the class as a whole is Power Shiro Rev.So what exactly is your problem with condi cleanses and why do you feel the need slot Antitoxin runes to roam successfully?

Tl;DR: Your complaint feels more like universal hatred for condis, stemming from you being lazy or unwilling to slot any cleanse options provided by your kit so you can drool over big numbers while yelling "BIG DAMAGE, BIG DAMAGE!"

Edit: I stand corrected, the OP is a FIRE WEAVER, oh the irony. :lol:

It's a bit ignorant to suggest that running fire weaver is ironic after it's been neutered so much. If you struggle to fight a fire weaver post-patch, ur doin it wrong. Burn guard on the other hand is basically where fire weaver was at pre-patch ... and no wonder why fire weaver was neutered, burn guard needs the same done to it.

But yes, no go on, you're right - let's slot max condi cleanses in every build we play so that we can counter the 2-3 builds that we infrequently run into, so that when we fight the builds that we would be fighting 80% of the time we'll be at a competitive disadvantage. Furthermore, realistic fights ? Throw that out the window. Theoretical cleanses is the only thing that matters. If it's possible to cleanse 20 condis in the first 30 seconds, that means it's always going to be possible/viable, yes. Cause I really love to just spam cleanses for 30 seconds straight without being able to focus on doing any lasting damage to the opponent, that's balanced gameplay right there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ArlAlt.1630 said:Ok so I just got back from my Ele guy. He looked over the Metabattle Fire Weaver spec, said you can get around 15 condi cleanses in the first 30 secs of a fight with a couple trait swaps, without slotting Antitoxin or Cleansing sigil. He then mentioned, that slotting Antitoxin in that build makes a lot of sense since you get that extra condi damage on top of the extra cleanse.So tell me again man, what exactly is your problem here? Sorry you can’t slot even more damage or duration on your burns, but at some point you gotta draw the line and min/max. You’re NOT by any means required to slot those runes, but you can choose to and get 175 extra condi damage. I really don’t understand your gripe.

And with that being said... /thread

Fight a competent condi mirage or core necro, maybe even a burn guard if they're very clever, and tell me you don't need antitoxin runes. They will wipe the floor with anyone that isn't running a counter build if they know what they're doing. Ok, MAYBE if you went 300 IQ mode and borderline-predicted-the-future or were very lucky, you could utilize all your cleanses at the optimal times without antitoxin rune, WHILE doing damage somehow because if you do not they will just continue spamming, and that could suffice. But that's rare. And I'm not the best ele but I'm certainly not bad either, I can tell you it's genuinely very difficult to fight these builds if you're not running antitoxin. Find someone who is very talented with core necro or condi mirage and try to beat them, you'll understand pretty quickly.

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:But yes, no go on, you're right - let's slot max condi cleanses in every build we play so that we can counter the 2-3 builds that we infrequently run into, so that when we fight the builds that we would be fighting 80% of the time we'll be at a competitive disadvantage. Furthermore, realistic fights ? Throw that out the window. Theoretical cleanses is the only thing that matters. If it's possible to cleanse 20 condis in the first 30 seconds, that means it's always going to be possible/viable, yes. Cause I really love to just spam cleanses for 30 seconds straight without being able to focus on doing any lasting damage to the opponent, that's balanced gameplay right there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Arheundel.6451 said:Condi dmg is necessary to balance out the immense sustain powercreep some classes in WvW still enjoy :

engineerrangernecro

These 3 above have innate sustain , can have access to long term boons on top medium-high base HP....condi is most times the only answer to themYeah because bringing condi to a necro fight is always a brilliant idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@babazhook.6805 said:The time was we had people here posting screenshots of death breakdowns to various builds in PvP. They would show a chart where they died to 20000 power damage and then others where they died to 80000 and more condition damage. They would then suggest that this proved Condition damage OP. In reality it was exactly the opposite.

Most people have only around 20k HPS . If you die to a power build with 22000 power point damage while it takes 80000 condition damage to kill you, this generally shows that there are more counters to Condition damage. You can not take 80000 in damage and still live unless there are counters and those counters are cleanses and heals forcing the condition player to start applying those stacks again.

It's always interesting how very few people seem to realise this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The time was we had people here posting screenshots of death breakdowns to various builds in PvP. They would show a chart where they died to 20000 power damage and then others where they died to 80000 and more condition damage. They would then suggest that this proved Condition damage OP. In reality it was exactly the opposite.

Most people have only around 20k HPS . If you die to a power build with 22000 power point damage while it takes 80000 condition damage to kill you, this generally shows that there are more counters to Condition damage. You can not take 80000 in damage and still live unless there are counters and those counters are cleanses and heals forcing the condition player to start applying those stacks again.

It's always interesting how very few people seem to realise this.

I'm not sure if I understand, 80000 theoretical damage or 80000 actual damage? Long duration condi skills on low cooldown can do a lot of damage with only one button press, but they typically don't due to cleanse. That's what makes it not absurdly unbalanced. So to say that there was more theoretical condi damage than power is kind of the idea, isn't it?

DPS is the only metric I'm interested in here

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@BoostedFC.6812 said:Saying that condi takes more time to kill is not true. Torment Burn and confusion are the main problems with condi damage I have had a 10k Burn tick proc on me and torment and confusion punish u for doing anything. There is no way anyone can convince me that Trailblazers and dire are needed for condi players just because of ramp up time.

I know the forum whining makes it seem like this argument is valid, but let's do a little reality check here. If we're being very generous, we'll give you 500 DPS from each burn stack (I think that is extremely high and not realistic, but I want to put this in perspective beyond any doubt!). That's a 20 stack burn for that 10k burn tick, my friend. Now I know that the general consensus is that condi builds have no tells and spam condi out of everywhere. But even if that's the truth with room to spare, how potato do you have to be to take a 20-30 stack burn? That's PvE level burn stacking! Cmon, man! And that you stopped to watch the entire fireworks display and never thought about cleansing? Let's take the hyperbole down a notch, shall we?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Supreme.3164 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

I have yet to see a single ele
roaming
in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

Fair enough. I’m not very knowledgeable in ele so I can’t say for sure. I did see one doing very well though, outsustaining even against good players on power soulbeasts. But as you said, that ele might just be an even better player than those he fought.

And just to clarify, I don’t mean ele as in core ele. That good player I saw was using a weaver ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

I have yet to see a single ele
roaming
in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

Fair enough. I’m not very knowledgeable in ele so I can’t say for sure. I did see one doing very well though, outsustaining even against good players on power soulbeasts. But as you said, that ele might just be an even better player than those he fought.

And just to clarify, I don’t mean ele as in core ele. That good player I saw was using a weaver ?

I solo roam on fire weaver and I still feel very comfortable with it (before and after 2/25), but I almost never see other sword weavers roaming or in PvP. Most weavers I see run dagger and most of those are running LR builds. Core ele is even more rare, but tempests are pretty common (though they usually run with allies and play support).

Here's a video of a renegade and a soulbeast turning me into a pincushion for a couple of minutes until I finally manage to overwhelm and finish them. There was a tempest, too, but he came over and bit off a lot more than he could chew before his friends could save him! Sorry, brother! But you did come over and pick that fight! :)

I wonder what you guys think of this fight? Obviously, if I am winning 1v3 (or 1v2, whatever you wanna call this!), it's unlikely that my opponents are on my level (whatever that is!). But my class knowledge is terrible and I can't say for certain how skilled my opponents are in outnumbered fights. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and counter-pressure! Would you say it's the build that is OP? I am just a lot better than the guys I am fighting? It just seems like impressions of competitive modes in this game are so subjective, it's like we're all playing our own version of the game, specific to us. But I'd still be curious to hear some opinions on this condi build that most people don't seem to be complaining about (is it a "sleeper" build?).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

I have yet to see a single ele
roaming
in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

Fair enough. I’m not very knowledgeable in ele so I can’t say for sure. I did see one doing very well though, outsustaining even against good players on power soulbeasts. But as you said, that ele might just be an even better player than those he fought.

And just to clarify, I don’t mean ele as in core ele. That good player I saw was using a weaver ?

I solo roam on fire weaver and I still feel very comfortable with it (before and after 2/25), but I almost never see other sword weavers roaming or in PvP. Most weavers I see run dagger and most of those are running LR builds. Core ele is even more rare, but tempests are pretty common (though they usually run with allies and play support).

Here's a video of a renegade and a soulbeast turning me into a pincushion for a couple of minutes until I finally manage to overwhelm and finish them. There was a tempest, too, but he came over and bit off a lot more than he could chew before his friends could save him! Sorry, brother! But you did come over and pick that fight! :)

I wonder what you guys think of this fight? Obviously, if I am winning 1v3 (or 1v2, whatever you wanna call this!), it's unlikely that my opponents are on my level (whatever that is!). But my class knowledge is terrible and I can't say for certain how skilled my opponents are in outnumbered fights. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and counter-pressure! Would you say it's the build that is OP? I am just a lot better than the guys I am fighting? It just seems like impressions of competitive modes in this game are so subjective, it's like we're all playing our own version of the game, specific to us. But I'd still be curious to hear some opinions on this condi build that most people don't seem to be complaining about (is it a "sleeper" build?).

I roam on my weaver/tempest 80% of the time. I find the sword fire weaver with sanct/antitoxin/dura/whatever rune a little bit boring for my play-style since the damage isn't top-notch, while sustain is OK. Your video shows exactly that - you outplay by resilience. It's fun sometimes.However, I've been running d/f or even d/d LR weaver / tempest more now - it's more high risk - high reward kind of build, and there is no greater pleasure to roll over some cocky necro or thief and 'ride the lightning' away :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The time was we had people here posting screenshots of death breakdowns to various builds in PvP. They would show a chart where they died to 20000 power damage and then others where they died to 80000 and more condition damage. They would then suggest that this proved Condition damage OP. In reality it was exactly the opposite.

Most people have only around 20k HPS . If you die to a power build with 22000 power point damage while it takes 80000 condition damage to kill you, this generally shows that there are more counters to Condition damage. You can not take 80000 in damage and still live unless there are counters and those counters are cleanses and heals forcing the condition player to start applying those stacks again.

It's always interesting how very few people seem to realise this.

I'm not sure if I understand, 80000 theoretical damage or 80000 actual damage? Long duration condi skills on low cooldown can do a lot of damage with only one button press, but they typically don't due to cleanse. That's what makes it not absurdly unbalanced. So to say that there was more theoretical condi damage than power is kind of the idea, isn't it?

DPS is the only metric I'm interested in here

Actual damage. In the death log in PvP it shows you the damage you have taken while you are on your feet. Pepe will post screenshots of them taking 60-100k+ Condi damage as some sort of justification that it's OP.

Anyways the point of their post is of condi has such high dps then the log would show comparatively lower numbers, closer to their actual health max. Anytime you see a screenshot where someone has taken Condi damage far above that it shows how ineffective conditions are not the opposite.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The time was we had people here posting screenshots of death breakdowns to various builds in PvP. They would show a chart where they died to 20000 power damage and then others where they died to 80000 and more condition damage. They would then suggest that this proved Condition damage OP. In reality it was exactly the opposite.

Most people have only around 20k HPS . If you die to a power build with 22000 power point damage while it takes 80000 condition damage to kill you, this generally shows that there are more counters to Condition damage. You can not take 80000 in damage and still live unless there are counters and those counters are cleanses and heals forcing the condition player to start applying those stacks again.

It's always interesting how very few people seem to realise this.

I'm not sure if I understand, 80000 theoretical damage or 80000 actual damage? Long duration condi skills on low cooldown can do a lot of damage with only one button press, but they typically don't due to cleanse. That's what makes it not absurdly unbalanced. So to say that there was more theoretical condi damage than power is kind of the idea, isn't it?

DPS is the only metric I'm interested in here

Actual damage. In the death log in PvP it shows you the damage you have taken while you are on your feet. Pepe will post screenshots of them taking 60-100k+ Condi damage as some sort of justification that it's OP.

Anyways the point of their post is of condi has such high dps then the log would show comparatively lower numbers, closer to their actual health max. Anytime you see a screenshot where someone has taken Condi damage far above that it shows how ineffective conditions are not the opposite.

If they're taking damage which is 5 to 10 times the amount of their health, they're healing for a LOT or have dedicated healer. Maybe the issue is support builds. In 1v1 scenarios, condi is OP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The time was we had people here posting screenshots of death breakdowns to various builds in PvP. They would show a chart where they died to 20000 power damage and then others where they died to 80000 and more condition damage. They would then suggest that this proved Condition damage OP. In reality it was exactly the opposite.

Most people have only around 20k HPS . If you die to a power build with 22000 power point damage while it takes 80000 condition damage to kill you, this generally shows that there are more counters to Condition damage. You can not take 80000 in damage and still live unless there are counters and those counters are cleanses and heals forcing the condition player to start applying those stacks again.

It's always interesting how very few people seem to realise this.

I'm not sure if I understand, 80000 theoretical damage or 80000 actual damage? Long duration condi skills on low cooldown can do a lot of damage with only one button press, but they typically don't due to cleanse. That's what makes it not absurdly unbalanced. So to say that there was more theoretical condi damage than power is kind of the idea, isn't it?

DPS is the only metric I'm interested in here

Actual damage. In the death log in PvP it shows you the damage you have taken while you are on your feet. Pepe will post screenshots of them taking 60-100k+ Condi damage as some sort of justification that it's OP.

Anyways the point of their post is of condi has such high dps then the log would show comparatively lower numbers, closer to their actual health max. Anytime you see a screenshot where someone has taken Condi damage far above that it shows how ineffective conditions are not the opposite.

In 1v1 scenarios, condi is OP.

As a whole it really isn't as a whole but you do you man. Its entirely scenario dependant, even in 1v1 instances.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@babazhook.6805 said:The time was we had people here posting screenshots of death breakdowns to various builds in PvP. They would show a chart where they died to 20000 power damage and then others where they died to 80000 and more condition damage. They would then suggest that this proved Condition damage OP. In reality it was exactly the opposite.

Most people have only around 20k HPS . If you die to a power build with 22000 power point damage while it takes 80000 condition damage to kill you, this generally shows that there are more counters to Condition damage. You can not take 80000 in damage and still live unless there are counters and those counters are cleanses and heals forcing the condition player to start applying those stacks again.

It's always interesting how very few people seem to realise this.

I'm not sure if I understand, 80000 theoretical damage or 80000 actual damage? Long duration condi skills on low cooldown can do a lot of damage with only one button press, but they typically don't due to cleanse. That's what makes it not absurdly unbalanced. So to say that there was more theoretical condi damage than power is kind of the idea, isn't it?

DPS is the only metric I'm interested in here

Actual damage. In the death log in PvP it shows you the damage you have taken while you are on your feet. Pepe will post screenshots of them taking 60-100k+ Condi damage as some sort of justification that it's OP.

Anyways the point of their post is of condi has such high dps then the log would show comparatively lower numbers, closer to their actual health max. Anytime you see a screenshot where someone has taken Condi damage far above that it shows how ineffective conditions are not the opposite.

If they're taking damage which is 5 to 10 times the amount of their health, they're healing for a LOT or have dedicated healer. Maybe the issue is support builds. In 1v1 scenarios, condi is OP.

No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...