The new player experience needs love

[Tazer.2157]

Okay it seems like a lot of people do not understand where I am coming from. Let me break it down.

A new player starts out the game doing events and hearts in a map. They are rewarded with are mostly crafting items, coins and karma. The new player does not know about the armor vendors in Orr and what Karma can be used for. The same can be said for the crafting materials, but they go on completing hearts as that is the only laid out objective for them. If the rewards feel meaningless, there is less incentive to play.

Along the way they are introduced to dungeons. Their first real group content that is challenging. Some try to do them, but they cannot form a group, so back to heart completion they go where the rewards do not make sense.

For the ones that stuck with the game, by the time they reach Orr, they meet the vendors that sell armor for ridiculous amounts of karma. The amount of Karma required, they do not yet have. So now they finally have an objective. Grind Karma.

Their journey from level 1 to level 80 has been one without an objective, time wasted, there was zero progression made(Unless you think map completion is progression). It felt unrewarding and grindy with map completion objectives. Then suddenly at level 80, they find out they need to grind karma. This is not a good experience.

This is why I asked to for the game to involve the new player with crafting. At least then the crafting item drops would feel meaningful. I don't want to force new players to do things(many in here are sadly of the opinion that new players are lazy or too stupid to play the game or understand it) I want the rewards to be made to feel meaningful.

[Etria.3642]

I sold everything and bought exotics? I didn't feel getting a ton of mats on map completion was not meaningful. Course, I did full on 100% completion before moving on to HoT despite my friends wanting me to hurry and get gliding and such. I mean, core Tyria is such a tiny bit of the game, I know that now, but back then I thoroughly enjoyed map completion. I absolutely WANTED the title that came with it. Also I hit 80 well before map comp, and also, should I have needed karma, map comp will actually get you a ton. I also was doing world bosses for the achievements and THOSE give a ton also.

I guess what it really boils down to is please don't make crafting obligatory ESPECIALLY for new players.

[Tazer.2157]

@"Taril.8619" said:

Karma grind? You mean, interacting with systems in the game that provide karma? Such as doing daily achievements (For Central Tyria and LW maps), doing Fractals, doing Raids or engaging in content inside a LW map that offers Karmic Retribution?

So you advocate for one system while totally being against another such as crafting?

As opposed to what? Crafting? Which is, go to a website, find out what you need to craft then go stand in a town pushing the "Craft" button over and over until you have enough skill to push a button that says "Here, have the item you actually care about"?

That is exactly what I am against. I mentioned in my original post that players should not go to an external website if they want to craft. Make crafting more intuitive. Besides that when most of the bonus rewards for event completion are crafting items, I feel that the game should at least teach the players what the drops are used for.

Unless you're trying to argue that the obtaining of materials (Through, running around using gathering tools for ore/lumber/plants or for trophies, sitting in the middle of a bunch of trash enemies farming them for hours on end) is more "Interactive"?

Aren't event completion rewards crafting materials? The whole game's reward system is based around crafting materials LOL. I did not design the game that way. I am merely pointing out the gap between the rewards and the incentive.

Which would require a complete and total overhaul of the games crafting system to actually be engaging gamplay, before your suggestion of increasing the focus on crafting would actually make any sort of improvement to gameplay engagement.

Then they should overhaul the system. MY whole focus around crafting is due to the fact that as I now mention for the countless time, the entire game's reward system and drops are crafting materials. Every map's reward track is crafting materials, we are filling our bags with crafting materials all the time and many have no idea what to do with them as the game never bothers to tell you. Is going to the wiki to learn about the basic drops in GW2 a good thing?

The way the game itself is structured, it's all about finding what you as an individual finds engaging. If new players come in, try out the games systems (Leveling up, doing some map completions, dabbling in some crafting, maybe do a dungeon, some WvW and a bit of PvP) and doesn't like it, well it's possible that the game just isn't for them. Not everyone will like the same things.

Rewards make event completion more meaningful. Think of it this way, if the game does not have any rewards or drops in place, will people do events? No they would not. Who would find anything engaging when the rewards are non-existent? That is the reason dungeons are dead. At least by teaching the players crafting, the rewards would make much more sense.

But don't force anyone into a particular activity. That's not how you retain new players, that's how you get new players to leave when they're forced to do stuff they don't like. It's one of the reasons why PvP in this game auto-levels you to 80 and lets you pick up whatever gear you want from the vendor, so that PvP fans, don't have to wade through 80 levels of PvE and then grind PvE content to get the gear they need to do PvP.

How would players even know what they like in the game when all the game lays out for you are hearts and map completion? Everything else requires you to go to the wiki.

Exploration literally is encouraged in the game. That's why you get rewards for map completions. That's why the content guide will literally point you towards exploring the current map if there's not an event nearby and you aren't tracking a story quest. In fact, with the Elite Specializations, they have also come with collections for their weapons in which one of the points is "Get a map completion in [Current Expansion Zone] as X Class" which ends up with you obtaining an Ascended quality weapon.

The only time you feel excited for map completion rewards is when a black lion key drops. The other rewards feel meaningless for a new player. For a new player, elite specs mean nothing.

Hearts removed from expansions? PoF is full of hearts. In fact, mount acquisition is tied to completing hearts. Then of course the LW maps have REPEATABLE HEARTS. Meaning every day, it gets reset and you can do the heart again for more rewards (Also, to access the vendor again)

The amount of hearts in the expansion maps were reduced drastically.

Making heart completion mandatory isn't a good thing. Making anything mandatory isn't a good thing. Luckily, at the moment, nothing in GW2 is mandatory.

When there is no other objective in game for a new player, the heart completion is mandatory as that is the only thing a new player can see out there.

At around level 5-6, every character working through their starter zone winds up at a town/camp that is full of crafters where they can learn to craft. Characters also get given a set of gathering tools as a level up reward.

Putting you in a camp with crafting stations is not teaching you crafting. In ESO, you are required to craft certain items each day. So the game makes you look for a recipe, then has you explore for items. On crafting the required item, you are then rewarded with gold and higher tier crafting materials and your crafting skill goes up. So there is a reward, even the crafting items you find in game now have a purpose and are used up regularly and you are genuinely excited when you get rare crafting drops.

Every 10 levels, you get a mail sent to you telling you about a new dungeon.

They might as well delete the mail as dungeons are empty.

The content guide will literally point you towards events that are happening. With some things like World Bosses and Bloodstone Crazed monsters being announced zone wide with a zone wide marker on the minimap.

Again the drops for doing these events are crafting items. If the player is not taught crafting, what else does he do with the drops? Sell them on the tp and play AdVenture Capitalist?

WvW gets announced as a level up reward at level 31 (60 for F2P accounts)

WvW is an utter failure in the game. The participation rates are low the way it is introduced to the new player is lazy. A new player is just dumped into WvW and gets deleted by the more experienced players. It is like dumping someone in the ocean without teaching him to swim. GW2 barely teaches you the game systems, it does not encourage you to get high tier gear, and you think putting someone in WvW is a good idea?

There's an entire line of Mastery points dedicated to crafting Legendaries and running Fractals.

When the new player is not even taught crafting, why would he even bother with legendaries? Let us be honest, to craft legendaries you need to go to the wiki. How many players would do that?

Raids get announced if you go near an entrance portal (I think they're also mentioned upon hitting level 80 too)

When dungeons are dead what makes you think a new player will get excited for raids?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

You must be playing a different game, as I rarely get mats for completing an event. Not sure I ever do, actually.
Crafting is optional, as it should be. Many players never craft, or rarely craft.
Mats from map completion or bonus map rewards are another form of Gold.

You know, we were all new players at one time, and managed to figure out how to play the game. Now, there's the New Player Tutorial, as well as the New Player Experience which offers a ton of information. Also, there's not a better game Wiki to be found, and that's a good thing.

It's probably best not to compare one game with another, or try to bring another game's mechanics to this one.If another game suits your desires, there's always the option to play that game.

[Taril.8619]

@Tazer.2157 said:So you advocate for one system while totally being against another such as crafting?

I'm not advocating any system.

I'm merely pointing out that this idea of a "Karma grind" you have idealized as the end-all-be-all of playing GW2 in a way that is one dimensional, actually has interactions with multiple systems.

@Tazer.2157 said:That is exactly what I am against. I mentioned in my original post that players should not go to an external website if they want to craft. Make crafting more intuitive. Besides that when most of the bonus rewards for event completion are crafting items, I feel that the game should at least teach the players what the drops are used for.

Which would require again, an entire overhaul of the crafting system, since it's designed around the Discovery system. Which the game does tell you about when you talk to the crafting trainers.

Also, in many cases, the game does teach players what drops are for. Many of the rare, account bound, items state on them "Used to craft Exotic/Ascended/Legendary equipment"

@Tazer.2157 said:Aren't event completion rewards crafting materials? The whole game's reward system is based around crafting materials LOL. I did not design the game that way. I am merely pointing out the gap between the rewards and the incentive.

It depends on what events you're doing.

HoT map events provide currency for the local faction vendors. PoF map events provide Trade token things. LW map events provide currencies for that map.

Central Tyria you get more crafting materials (By way of Map Reward tracks), but you also obtain gear, which can be useful if you're not just buying Exotics off the TP. Not to mention Karma and experience (Though, once at level 80 and capped on masteries I admit that experience does only become Spirit Shards which are pointless outside Legendary crafting)

@Tazer.2157 said:Rewards make event completion more meaningful. Think of it this way, if the game does not have any rewards or drops in place, will people do events? No they would not. Who would find anything engaging when the rewards are non-existent? That is the reason dungeons are dead. At least by teaching the players crafting, the rewards would make much more sense.

A few things to note here:

1) The entirety of the game is literally about doing things because they're fun. That is the nature of horizontal progression (As opposed to vertical progression of most other MMO's, wherein your objective is to get the ever improving available gear). It is a core feature of the game that does lead to some players losing interest because they run out of things they find enjoyable (After doing all the LW stories, getting all the masteries, doing all the world bosses several times, doing fractals, raids, strikes, WvW, PvP etc... They get to a point where they're just doing stuff they've already done countless times before)

2) The game does teach players about crafting. Also, it'd take some sort of brain dead idiot to not be able to figure out what all these crafting materialsthey keep getting are for in a game that has crafting in it. Sure, they might not know the recipes but they should have an idea that the items are there to craft with.

If it's a case of not knowing which ones are valuable... Well, one can easily check TP prices... Typically rare and highly prized materials will sell for more, while common and easily obtained materials will sell for less (I.e. Ecto's sell for ~20s each. Meanwhile Milling Stones don't sell on the TP because everyone gets like a million of them by accident...)

@Tazer.2157 said:How would players even know what they like in the game when all the game lays out for you are hearts and map completion? Everything else requires you to go to the wiki.

I literally mentioned that the game points out all the different pieces of content. No wiki required.

Like, it LITERALLY puts a big old sign in front of your face saying "LOOK HERE AT WHAT YOU CAN NOW DO!" to the point of being annoying when I'm leveling a new character and keep needing to close the damn pop up box every level where it tells me about some "New" thing I already know about and have participated in...

@Tazer.2157 said:The only time you feel excited for map completion rewards is when a black lion key drops. The other rewards feel meaningless for a new player. For a new player, elite specs mean nothing.

Other rewards feel meaningless for a new player? Elite specs mean nothing to a new player?

What?

Map completion rewards offer gear. Which, if you're right and no-one wants to just buy stuff off the TP or from Karma vendors, is somewhat valuable (With high level zones giving guaranteed Exotics). Transmutation Charges are also valuable for new players, given that a primary reward offered by certain systems are skins and so being able to actually use said skins is a good incentive.

Meanwhile, E-Specs are one of the highlights of the Expansions. Like a big part of marketing of the expansions is to access the new E-Specs. It's likely that one of the reasons a new player even started playing the game is because they heard about a cool E-Spec.

@Tazer.2157 said:The amount of hearts in the expansion maps were reduced drastically.

Yes? Due to there being fewer maps in expansions than in Central Tyria? Also, due to the fact that PoF takes place in a DESERT and thus there is a smaller percentage of populated areas that make sense to have hearts (Heck, we have a heart for Choya...)

If hearts were unpopular as you suggest, they wouldn't have added repeatable hearts in the LW maps. Nor would they have brought back hearts to the main expansion after HoT which featured no hearts.

@Tazer.2157 said:When there is no other objective in game for a new player, the heart completion is mandatory as that is the only thing a new player can see out there.

Again, this is false. As I've mentioned. The game points out a number of activites available. Also, heart completion is not mandatory even in the case that a player doesn't see the giant pop up telling them about things because they'll definitely see the events pop up and know that they can do events for experience in lieu of hearts.

It's interesting though, that you're becoming so adamant about new players only seeing hearts after posters had to tell you that hearts were an objective that players had.

It seems as though you really have no clue about what new players actually see.

Fun fact: I returned to the game after leaving pre-HoT only a few weeks back. So I entered the game as a "Newbie" quite recently and rolled up a brand new Revenant and level up from 1-80 doing events and hearts and map completions, while finding out about stuff like the new WvW and PvP reward tracks, Legendary crafting (While it existed before, it was unclear on how to proceed outside consulting the wiki. These days it's very straight forward since the masteries direct you towards the dude in LA who sells the collections and then you simply look at the collections to find out where to get each item required to get the recipe). I wandered by a Raid entrance because it was a weird symbol on my map and was told about raids

@Tazer.2157 said:Putting you in a camp with crafting stations is not teaching you crafting. In ESO, you are required to craft certain items each day. So the game makes you look for a recipe, then has you explore for items. On crafting the required item, you are then rewarded with gold and higher tier crafting materials and your crafting skill goes up. So there is a reward, even the crafting items you find in game now have a purpose and are used up regularly and you are genuinely excited when you get rare crafting drops.

In ESO, you are not requried to craft. You can, if you want to, but you don't have to. Even those daily crafts aren't necessary if you're actually crafting, they just offer a minimal investment of crafting in order to level up.

Also, if you bother to actually speak with any of the crafting trainers that are stood next to the crafting stations, they literally tell you all about crafting. How to craft, how to discover recipes, what each crafting discipline can make etc.

@Tazer.2157 said:They might as well delete the mail as dungeons are empty.

That's a different problem entirely. The fact is, players are notified of the existence of dungeons. The poor population of Story Mode runs doesn't stop that and heck, in a few more levels those players can hop into an exploration mode run which aren't infrequent.

@Tazer.2157 said:Again the drops for doing these events are crafting items. If the player is not taught crafting, what else does he do with the drops? Sell them on the tp and play AdVenture Capitalist?

Again, it depends on which events you're doing.

Also, if a player is given crafting items... They can decide themselves if they want to try crafting or just sell the items and get gold to fund whatever they want (Buying items from TP, trading gold for gems etc)

@Tazer.2157 said:WvW is an utter failure in the game. The participation rates are low the way it is introduced to the new player is lazy. A new player is just dumped into WvW and gets deleted by the more experienced players. It is like dumping someone in the ocean without teaching him to swim. GW2 barely teaches you the game systems, it does not encourage you to get high tier gear, and you think putting someone in WvW is a good idea?

Do I think putting someone in WvW is a good idea? It matters not.

The fact is, players are told about the WvW game mode and they can try it at their leisure. Also, not all of WvW is people ganking newbies, there's a lot of other things that happen there as well, such as running around doing some PvE objectives to work on the reward tracks and familiarize oneself with how the mode works

@Tazer.2157 said:When the new player is not even taught crafting, why would he even bother with legendaries?

Because he sees someone running around with a shiny, glowing weapon that makes them glow and leave shiny footfalls and goes "I want that!"? Like literally everyone else who has obtained a Legendary?

@Tazer.2157 said:When dungeons are dead what makes you think a new player will get excited for raids?

If this isn't their first ever MMO, they they'd know that dungeons are often dead content and PvE communities shift towards raids which is usually the more interesting form of instanced content.

Also, one could also open up the LFG window and have a look at people recruiting for raids. Since that's a thing that players get told about too.

[Tazer.2157]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:You must be playing a different game, as I rarely get mats for completing an event. Not sure I ever do, actually.

Really? What are your drops then? Even the map bonus rewards are crafting materials.

Crafting is optional, as it should be. Many players never craft, or rarely craft.

Crafting is not made optional here. It is not even introduced to a new player. To many it is non-existent.

Mats from map completion or bonus map rewards are another form of Gold.

Like I asked, is this an MMO or a farming simulator. If gold is all what matters, people will just cluster to the more efficient farm trains.

You know, we were all new players at one time, and managed to figure out how to play the game. Now, there's the New Player Tutorial, as well as the New Player Experience which offers a ton of information. Also, there's not a better game Wiki to be found, and that's a good thing.

If players figured out the game, we would not have players running around with no food or portions, basic tier gear complaining about difficulty. I do not blame the player here, I blame the game that barely lets the player know what the game contains. HoT needed to get the difficulty reduced. Even now players complain about the difficulty of the game. GW2 devs pointed out that they cannot create challenging content because of the massive gap in damage between the average player and the more involed players.

It's probably best not to compare one game with another, or try to bring another game's mechanics to this one.

I only compared ESO to GW2 because ESO does a better job with the new player experience. I prefer GW2 and I play it more often, but something needs to be done to let new players know what the game has. The game is so much more than selling loot for gold.

If another game suits your desires, there's always the option to play that game.

This logic is harmful because there might be a system in place that you might not be happy with. Will you then just quit and play another game?

[Headhunter.4796]

@Tazer.2157 said:

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:If another game suits your desires, there's always the option to play that game.

This logic is harmful because there might be a system in place that you might not be happy with. Will you then just quit and play another game?

No, you accept it and get it done so you can continue to like the rest :+1:

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Here's what I usually get: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dynamic_event#Event_rewardsThe Chests, if awarded, usually have Blue or Green Unid Gear; sometimes Rare Unid Gear.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Tazer.2157" said:GW2 is a great game, but for new players not so much. While the game has fixed objectives for lvl 80 players with daily strikes, fractals, legendary obtainment etc, for the new player there is no definite aim which imo is really bad. As a new player the GW2 experience is basically hearts and map exploration. This sounds good. BUT, in a game where the rewards are crafting materials, there is no incentive to craft items! There are no recipe vendors that give you an idea of what you can do with the materials you have gathered, there is no daily crafting to even get you started in crafting. Instead you are left with mindlessly going through the open world with zero objective until it becomes boring and you quit the game. For the new player, the game desperately needs objectives. Put in a system where the new player can obtain recipes to craft level 80 exotic gear, this way the player will know what certain materials are used for and the player will have the objective of going out and gathering those materials, participating in events, etc. This will make the leveling up experience rewarding and fun. Put in a system of daily crafting. We should not go to an external website to begin crafting! This is a game where the rewards are crafting materials, introducing crafting to new players should be high up on the priority list. Have a daily dungeon system similar to the daily strike missions with rewards at the end of the week. I feel like these daily missions can be given out at the order you joined (vigil, priory, whispers). The order can give out daily missions with recipe rewards so you actually feel like an initiate climbing up the ranks and by the time you reach 80, you would have crafted your armor and weapons ready to explore Tyria and beyond.

Totally unrelated: Please can we have campfires in maps as a place to cook food.

Regarding crafting, one of the things that the game doesn't teach new players at all, is that low level materials are very important to make high end items. For example, as a new player you get some Engraved Totems killing Grawl in Timberline Falls. You open the TP and find out that they are selling for 8 silver each. Because you don't want to craft anything, you simply sell it. Then at a later point in the game you figure out that you need even lower tier Totems to make a Gift of Totems which is used in some Legendary Crafting.

Tier 2 Clothing material Wool is more expensive than all other, higher tier, clothing materials, yet the new player that gets it doesn't know it's used in Ascended armor crafting.

There are loads of similar examples of how lower tier materials are used in top quality items yet that fact isn't known to the player, so they can make an informed decision whether to sell it or store it for later when they need it. Not to mention the conversion recipes, that allow you to convert low tier materials to higher tiers (most of the time it's not worth it)

That said, I'm not sure how the requirements for legendary/ascended crafting can be made known to new players. Maybe a mark on the material, right where it says "used by Armorsmith, Weaponsmith, etc" "also used in Legendary/Ascended crafting" could do the trick, so new players who see these materials ask around or do a wiki search on what that means.

[Vision.8756]

I hear what people are saying here, but I think it's GREAT to not have a forced objective (which would imply that the game has no depth and only has one way to progress). As a new player, my only driving force was the little number at the bottom left that told me my level and then subsequently my mastery rank. After getting a sweet deal early this month on the expansions, I just want to be able to play with the few buddies I have who got me into the game. There is SO MUCH to this entire world that it should never force people into one way of playing.

TBH, I think the real hard part is finding a good community. Since I don't know very many people, I think community building and finding communities are the most challenging. To make matters worse, I found out buddy lists are useless for speaking to buddies as a group, and I am probably just following people who are not following me back. Additionally, I just realized we can be part of 5 guilds so there should be something to support that feature.

I can find the guild section of the forum, but I can't really tell what a guild is like unless I get into one. As a new player, my concern is the need for an in-game system that can enable players to find a guild and for guilds to seek out players and to share events with the community at large in-game and not have users wildly alt+tabbing to the forum and back (I already have the wiki ready to go; can I limit my alt-tabbing please?). The disconnect between the forum and the game is huge when it comes to communities. The ones I encounter in-game tend NOT to be the ones that are heavily recruiting on the forums. In fact, I have never seen any of the front page forum guilds in game yet (yes, I am aware about NA and EU server differences).

I think you're right about crafting, however. I just recently heard about it being the primary way to make the best gear in the game. There really isn't a big side quest to adventure into the world of crafting. I was told Chef had an interesting journey after level 400 or something, but that's it. I was really fortunate in that my second day of Triple Trouble was the day I got my first ascended box (that was less than a week into the game). I was so new I didn't know about linking items and saw others link their drops after the event.

The new player experience could be improved, but I don't necessarily think we're completely on the same page. I think random people have been nice when answering questions I couldn't wiki or just getting things done on a map; I just haven't found ways to jump into guilds themselves. I'm part of one but it's a small, friend's guild of beetle enthusiasts. This is Guild Wars 2 right? What gives? Or is there some sort of invisible barrier I have to clear as a new player?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I think the LFG has a Guild section; have you tried that?
If you see some Guild members doing some content you enjoy, or chatting in /map with conversation you appreciate, have you tried approaching them about joining their Guild?

[voltaicbore.8012]

I flatly disagree with the idea that the new player experience needs to revamp how gear is obtained. I started this game 4 years ago as a completely free to play account, and leveled several (I think 3?) characters to 80 before buying into HoT. In my experience, the free gear you get (I think you end up in all exotics and rares by the end) through completing story and leveling up to 80 is sufficient to put the average player in a spot to begin the process of obtaining exotics via crafting or TP.

If a new player finds that the free set of gear is just not workable by the time you reach Orr, that indicates that they probably have an un-sound build (if they even put any real thought into it at all). Even though the free gear is enough, stat-level wise, as a starter set, it will prove nearly useless if you don't choose the gear piece that fits well with your chosen damage/weapon playstyle.

That, to me, is the real issue with the new player experience. It's just so easy that new players are rarely challenged to actually figure out how the game works. They just pick a weapon for looks or for some RP-esque reason, pick a hodgepodge of stats, push their way though a good portion of the story half-asleep, then wonder why nothing works at 80. I think my point is well proven by how many new players have an absolutely abysmal experience with using 80 boosts. You get instant access to a full set of core traits, skills, and (an admittedly suboptimal) set of exotic gear, but that doesn't solve the underlying problem of the player not knowing how anything works. All this talk of changing how gear is obtained and what rewards are handed out early on - all that will do is more of the same nonsense that 80 boosts already do.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the PvE reward structure at the moment, especially when it comes to new players.