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Simple DPS Metre


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All,

Any idea if it would be possible to get a simple in-game DPS only metre ?

Hear me out before you say arcdps...Arcdps has its place for organising and sorting stuff out and should not be replaced or removed or banned.

A simple in-game DPS metre which shows a simple colour for the person on how good their DPS:Eg >30K=Bright green, 20-30K=Normal green, 15-20K=Light green, 10-15K white, 5-10K=light red, 0-5K=red.

This would then be able to be enabled during strike missions, fractals, training golem and have an associated training tutorial that the brighter the green = higher the damage being done per minute. The golem DPS tutorial can award AP for each colour lit up - with a simple, do > 10K your DPS metre will show ‘color’ - try it now...

Right now the biggest barrier to strikes is that some individuals have no idea if they do DPS or what DPS is.

A really simple DPS in-game metre (no numbers) will help those who are learning the game get better who often won’t install arcdps. This way we can easily say to someone ‘look at your in game DPS colour it was “red” we need your DPS to be “green” to pass this area.

Many players new to strike missions have no idea there are DPS metres and are vary wary or running 3rd party tools.

We still need arc to run more detailed real time and post diagnosis analysis.

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I personally am in favor of the game offering performance statistics for PvE. Relevant stats are available at the end of and in some cases during every PvP match and I don't see why PvE players shouldn't have similar measurements including Damage, Outbound Healing, and Boon Uptime.I do however see fault in a few of your points.

@"TPMN.1483" said:A simple in-game DPS metre which shows a simple colour for the person on how good their DPS:Eg >30K=Bright green, 20-30K=Normal green, 15-20K=Light green, 10-15K white, 5-10K=light red, 0-5K=red.The problem with this is that the game would say "hey you are underperforming" . The would immediately rub a fairly large group of players the wrong way.Right now the biggest barrier to strikes is that some individuals have no idea if they do DPS or what DPS is.
No... this isn't even in the top 5 barriers. Strikes can currently be accessed and completed without anyone using ARC.The first one can be solo'ed.The biggest barriers to Strikes are largely personal and community. I am sure legitimate handicaps are a larger barrier to participation.Strikes are extremely accessible content, and you barely need to be able to play your class to contribute on the first three.A lack of self awareness doesn't prevent people from engaging in this content.A really simple DPS in-game metre (no numbers) will help those who are learning the game get better who often won’t install arcdps. This way we can easily say to someone ‘look at your in game DPS colour it was “red” we need your DPS to be “green” to pass this area.And this is why a lot of people don't want them... exactly why.Nothing you can do or say will change a number of people's minds on one thing. They hold the very strong opinion that you should never, in any situation during a video game be called out for under performing. There are various reasons for people feeling this way, nothing you can do or say in this thread will change their minds.You've already said you want to use your new tool as a way to call people out.Your idea is DOA.Many players new to strike missions have no idea there are DPS metres and are vary wary or running 3rd party tools.
Agree.

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I don't need or want any meters as official tools applied to the game.If elitists want to have meters, they should download the optional third party tools.In fact, I'd like Arenanet to restrict those third party tools to only display the DPS of people who have these tools installed.I don't need some strangers checking my DPS and crying about me enjoying what I play.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@TPMN.1483 said:A simple in-game DPS metre which shows a simple colour for the person on how good their DPS:Eg >30K=Bright green, 20-30K=Normal green, 15-20K=Light green, 10-15K white, 5-10K=light red, 0-5K=red.

The amount of DPS you can output depends on the boss and your role, so this wouldn't work at all.

It would work as a healer would not be expected to have ‘green’ level DPS. If someone who is the designated healer has bright green dps it would actually show a potential group problem.

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@Kulvar.1239 said:And then people will only look at DPS as the all encompassing metric of every build and judge build base on DPS alone.Terrible idea.

We already have a way to know if people are effective : the boss health goes down and your don't.

This measures a group - what if it’s too slow, how would you identify people who are not doing enough DPS who said they were DPS ?

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@Fueki.4753 said:I don't need or want any meters as official tools applied to the game.If elitists want to have meters, they should download the optional third party tools.In fact, I'd like Arenanet to restrict those third party tools to only display the DPS of people who have these tools installed.I don't need some strangers checking my DPS and crying about me enjoying what I play.

It’s not elitist - and DPS metres are needed to diagnose group problems so they can be fixed - restricting to people who have it installed won’t work. Some content does need DPS checks and to obtain ‘gold’ level strikes does require some level of performance on certain bosses such as bone skinner.

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@TPMN.1483 said:

@TPMN.1483 said:A simple in-game DPS metre which shows a simple colour for the person on how good their DPS:Eg >30K=Bright green, 20-30K=Normal green, 15-20K=Light green, 10-15K white, 5-10K=light red, 0-5K=red.

The amount of DPS you can output depends on the boss and your role, so this wouldn't work at all.

It would work as a healer would not be expected to have ‘green’ level DPS. If someone who is the designated healer has bright green dps it would actually show a potential group problem.

The damage you can do on Dhuum is vastly different to the damage you do on Vale Guardian, they are no really "compatible"

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The reason WHY arcdps is useful is exactly BECAUSE it offers information besides damage.

For all groups care, damage is in fact the easiest stat the group can derive by simply looking at how fast the bosses life depletes or how fast phases are. In fact, most experienced players do that already automatically for many bosses when judging how to proceed and if a skip mechanic will work or a phase will end, etc.

Adding a built in damage meter already brings with it pros and cons. Adding a damage only version basically takes almost all of the pros, throws them out the window and leaves players with even more cons.

If all you do when looking at arcdps is check the damage, you are in no position of understanding what the damage meter is good for. Arcdps could completely cut out the damage information from its visual data, and still be just as useful. It's all the stuff that is not damage that is more important, at least if you are in any way interested in performance optimization and problem solving.

EDIT: and just to give a simple example on top of wthat maddoctor.2738 gave: Imagine a 10 player squad, but both sub groups have different quickness uptime, very realistically possible in case the chrono(s) or Firebrands are of different skill level. How do you adjust for that based off of only damage information? The group with higher quickness uptime will have a huge performance advantage. This example can be extended to literally every boon, unique class effect, etc. which can differ in uptime between groups. All you are doing is inviting in more toxicity of players who don't understand how to use damage meters.

EDIT2: and just to be clear, since I'm sure some players will immediately assume damage display not being as important as other stats is the same as damage not being important: damage is important, especially for good performance. The visual representation of damage done though is not, at least not as important as many of the other just as important effects (boons, positioning, damage taken, healing, etc.) which are harder monitored.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@TPMN.1483 said:A simple in-game DPS metre which shows a simple colour for the person on how good their DPS:Eg >30K=Bright green, 20-30K=Normal green, 15-20K=Light green, 10-15K white, 5-10K=light red, 0-5K=red.

The amount of DPS you can output depends on the boss and your role, so this wouldn't work at all.

It would work as a healer would not be expected to have ‘green’ level DPS. If someone who is the designated healer has bright green dps it would actually show a potential group problem.

The damage you can do on Dhuum is vastly different to the damage you do on Vale Guardian, they are no really "compatible"

Target DPS is not actually that much different at all if you look at various runs and check out the benchmarks on snowcrows site:https://www.snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

Vale Guardian Target DPS is between 22-27KDhumm Target DPS is between 21-27K

In fact most of the bosses have average Target DPS between 20-30K with the exceptions being Qadim 1.0, Samarog and the DPS Golem bosses (Conjured Al. & Mursatt Overseer).

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@TPMN.1483 said:

@TPMN.1483 said:A simple in-game DPS metre which shows a simple colour for the person on how good their DPS:Eg >30K=Bright green, 20-30K=Normal green, 15-20K=Light green, 10-15K white, 5-10K=light red, 0-5K=red.

The amount of DPS you can output depends on the boss and your role, so this wouldn't work at all.

It would work as a healer would not be expected to have ‘green’ level DPS. If someone who is the designated healer has bright green dps it would actually show a potential group problem.

The damage you can do on Dhuum is vastly different to the damage you do on Vale Guardian, they are no really "compatible"

Target DPS is not actually that much different at all if you look at various runs and check out the benchmarks on snowcrows site:

Vale Guardian Target DPS is between 22-27KDhumm Target DPS is between 21-27K

In fact most of the bosses have average Target DPS between 20-30K with the exceptions being Qadim 1.0, Samarog and the DPS Golem bosses (Conjured Al. & Mursatt Overseer).

But you didn't adress the main point : all this is highly depend on boon uptimes, positioning, support in general..Depend also on what you do in fights meca-wise :

  • a dps who eat mushroom on sloth won't have the dps that someone who don't. Is his dps will be bad for that? no because it's required to kill sloth.
  • a dps-green on dhuum (yeah some groups still do that cuz not everyone is capable of doing green ping-wise) won't have the same dps either..You can easily find others examples of that.

I think arcdps already provide the necessary information, even if it could be improved (for tracking heal maybe). We don't really need another one (even more with imprecise info)

(Also don't expect ppl to have perfect dps rotations like snowcrows)

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I'd like to see a personal DPS meter which gives the players the tools needed to do some self reflection (not just for "Fractals/Dungeons/Strike Missions/Raids" but PvE in general). This DPS meter should include at least 4 informations:

  • your overall DPS (only counts the time you're in combat)

and some informations specific to the last "boss type" enemy you fought:

  • your DPS vs. said boss
  • the number of players attacking the boss
  • how much damage you dealt (in % of his maximum health)

With this players would have the tools needed to roughly gauge their performance which would be a great help for those who want to improve themselves / want to try out new builds.

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@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@TPMN.1483 said:A simple in-game DPS metre which shows a simple colour for the person on how good their DPS:Eg >30K=Bright green, 20-30K=Normal green, 15-20K=Light green, 10-15K white, 5-10K=light red, 0-5K=red.

The amount of DPS you can output depends on the boss and your role, so this wouldn't work at all.

It would work as a healer would not be expected to have ‘green’ level DPS. If someone who is the designated healer has bright green dps it would actually show a potential group problem.

The damage you can do on Dhuum is vastly different to the damage you do on Vale Guardian, they are no really "compatible"

Target DPS is not actually that much different at all if you look at various runs and check out the benchmarks on snowcrows site:

Vale Guardian Target DPS is between 22-27KDhumm Target DPS is between 21-27K

In fact most of the bosses have average Target DPS between 20-30K with the exceptions being Qadim 1.0, Samarog and the DPS Golem bosses (Conjured Al. & Mursatt Overseer).

But you didn't adress the main point : all this is highly depend on boon uptimes, positioning, support in general..Depend also on what you do in fights meca-wise :
  • a dps who eat mushroom on sloth won't have the dps that someone who don't. Is his dps will be bad for that? no because it's required to kill sloth.
  • a dps-green on dhuum (yeah some groups still do that cuz not everyone is capable of doing green ping-wise) won't have the same dps either..You can easily find others examples of that.

I think arcdps already provide the necessary information, even if it could be improved (for tracking heal maybe). We don't really need another one (even more with imprecise info)

(Also don't expect ppl to have perfect dps rotations like snowcrows)

If someone with a DPS Metre cannot work out that people eating mushrooms (or doing a mechanic) will do less DPS than someone not.. well thats pretty silly....but a simple DPS in-game metre would at least help people have some idea if they are performing there is a large casual player base who will not install arcdps at all. This suggestion is not for the people who know all about boons, positioning, rotations - its aimed at the casual who has absolutely no idea what DPS they are doing and if its any good compared to other people within a range.

If the DPS is shown to be low, the other things can then be looked at - boons, positioning, build, armor, runes etc - a ele doing 4K DPS (who is a DPS person) on a strike mission really should have some indicator on how they are performing compared to another DPS person doing 20k+.

Part of the getting people to play better is to help them understand what they dont' know - giving them a simple indicator will at least start the interest in "I need to do more damage - how do I improve?"

Many players need stepping stones from the 4K DPS ele to the 30K DPS ele - and often this will involve multiple jumps in proficiency over a period of time as they may not be able to absorb all the information required to get to 30K in one block of 10-15 mins of practice.

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@TPMN.1483 said:If someone with a DPS Metre cannot work out that people eating mushrooms (or doing a mechanic) will do less DPS than someone not.. well thats pretty silly....

Sure, yet it would happen because idiots are idiots.

@TPMN.1483 said:but a simple DPS in-game metre would at least help people have some idea if they are performing there is a large casual player base who will not install arcdps at all.

I get where you are coming from, I really do: you want to have an in-game easy to understand visual implementation so players can immediately judge their performance and see where they stand, maybe encouraging them to improve.

Here is where the issues with this lie:

  • players actually interested in improving can already do so, even via in-game means
  • you are assuming every player will see this as encouragement. Careful: ignorance is bliss, and I guarantee you, quite a few players would take offense once they realized how terrible they are at this game
  • for a great deal of content, this type of performance measure is not even needed

This is on top of any other issues which would arise from this.

@TPMN.1483 said:Part of the getting people to play better is to help them understand what they dont' know - giving them a simple indicator will at least start the interest in "I need to do more damage - how do I improve?"

You can lead a horse to water...

You are trying to make players "drink" water who are not thirsty.

@TPMN.1483 said:Many players need stepping stones from the 4K DPS ele to the 30K DPS ele - and often this will involve multiple jumps in proficiency over a period of time as they may not be able to absorb all the information required to get to 30K in one block of 10-15 mins of practice.

As mentioned, players actually interested in improving will already put in the effort even without using arcdps (looking up builds, practicing a bit, asking guild members for help, etc.). Those left not improving right now are either incompetent, not interested or both.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:Here is where the issues with this lie:

  • players actually interested in improving can already do so, even via in-game meansBut the game still doesn't give you any concrete data.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

  • you are assuming every player will see this as encouragement. Careful: ignorance is bliss, and I guarantee you, quite a few players would take offense once they realized how terrible they are at this gameWhich would require them to turn it on first and even then, in context of a personal DPS meter, there would be no way to tell whether or not their numbers are actually "terrible" unless they actively seek out the numbers from other players.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

  • for a great deal of content, this type of performance measure is not even neededIrrelevant, there is no need to require a "need" to implement something useful.
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@Tails.9372 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Here is where the issues with this lie:
  • players actually interested in improving can already do so, even via in-game meansBut the game still doesn't give you any concrete data.

That's beside the point. If a player is interested in improving, they CAN do so. You are assuming that players will be purely motivated by having their performance judged/displayed. The fraction of players this would apply to is likely not as high as you think. Meanwhile the detriments and the players annoyed by this might be significantly higher, which is a net negative to the game.

The very belief that by showing players how poor their performance is will be a net benefit to the game is flawed.

@Tails.9372 said:

  • you are assuming every player will see this as encouragement. Careful: ignorance is bliss, and I guarantee you, quite a few players would take offense once they realized how terrible they are at this gameWhich would require them to turn it on first and even then, in context of a personal DPS meter, there would be no way to tell whether or not their numbers are actually "terrible" unless they actively seek out the numbers from other players.

So, to summarize, you want a personal dps meter for players who likely:

  • will not be able to put this into context since they will likely lack a huge amount of knowledge
  • the feature its self will be lacking in it's most important functionality
  • the personal dps meter will not make external tools obsolete, so now you might get arguments if there are disparities between both (arcdps is not perfect and has deviations)

@Tails.9372 said:

  • for a great deal of content, this type of performance measure is not even neededIrrelevant, there is no need to require a "need" to implement something useful.

Absolutely relevant if you are dealing with a feature which might make players leave the game and is in no way needed for the vast majority of the game.

TL;DR:Stop trying to "save" players from their personal inability to improve, especially if it comes with this many strings attached. You can't "make" players want to become better, you can at best assist them IF they come asking for help. That's by the way also a very good general advice for life: there is exactly 1 person whose actions you are in full control of: your own. The moment you try to make others do things against their will, you will get conflict.

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I think it's an interesting idea, however, with respect I don't trust the developers to decide what is high or low dps. Furthermore, damage potential varies so much per encounter that implementing a 'simple' meter that takes account of each encounter would actually require a lot of analysis

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@Cyninja.2954 said:That's beside the point.Not if you put it in context of the topic of this thread unless you want to say that your comment itself was OT in which case I guess you would be right.

@Cyninja.2954 said:So, to summarizeWhat exactly are you summarizing here? You're version of what you want to read into my post? I already explained it above, a personal DPS meter would still be useful to give you a rough idea of were you are in comparison to the player base as a whole and allow you to compare the performance of your builds with each other (or with other players if you choose to actively seek out their numbers).

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely relevant if you are dealing with a feature which might make players leave the game and is in no way needed for the vast majority of the game.This is rooted in nothing but baseless assumptions, the main issue people take with DPS meters is that they don't want other players to see their performance which wouldn't be an issue for a personal DPS meter. This also assumes that people who go out of their way to see their DPS are mostly incapable of handling the raw numbers which seems to be a rather condescending notion.

I've played mmorpgs with personal DPS meters which are even more casual than GW2 and never (not even once) have I ever seen anyone complain about it or it being brought up as a reason for why "player X" left the game.

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@Tails.9372 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Absolutely relevant if you are dealing with a feature which might make players leave the game and is in no way needed for the vast majority of the game.This is rooted in nothing but baseless assumptions, the main issue people take with DPS meters is that they don't want other players to see their performance which wouldn't be an issue for a personal DPS meter. This also assumes that people who go out of their way to see their DPS are mostly incapable of handling the raw numbers which seems to be a rather condescending notion.

I've played mmorpgs with personal DPS meters which are even more casual than GW2 and never (not even once) have I ever seen anyone complain about it or it being brought up as a reason for why "player X" left the game.

Who is making baseless assumptions now? If you had spent even 1 second in the vast amount of threads on this issue, you would know that many players disagree with dps meters because they simply do not want to be pressured or feel under pressure. As are many other reasons, visibility from others is NOT the major one, nor the only one.

There are dozens of past posters who demanded dps meters be disallowed completely and who openly stated that they would leave the game. You might want to dig through some of the past posts on this topic.

FYI in order to advocate for a change to a given system, you should show how it is of significant improvement. I fail to see the significant improvement in this idea. Also again, for a feature NOT NEEDED in 95% of this games content,and most important, if desired available via 3rd party add-on for players who are interested. You are barking up the wrong tree m8.

EDIT:

@Tails.9372 said:This also assumes that people who go out of their way to see their DPS are mostly incapable of handling the raw numbers which seems to be a rather condescending notion.

No, I am assuming that players who are interested in this information, and who are within a healthy state of mind and ability, will find a way to full-fill this desire. For all the remaining, I don't assume anything besides that they have decided that this specific type of information is not necessary to them or have never given it any thought.

Why would I burden ANYONE with more information than they desire? Even more if they might not desire it in the first place be it due to lack of necessity or other factors?

You assuming that players are to inept to get the necessary data they desire while at the same time being able to put this data into context or use it responsibly are the one being condescending, to the players who WILLINGLY do not want this data.

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I've been using arcDPS for a few months now after being initially resistant to the idea of running a third party plugin. However, after using it and seeing my Power Weaver gameplay improve significantly, I don't think its possible to correctly evaluate your own performance without it.

Its not just the meter itself - its the parsing of .EVTC logs with dps.report and moxie that gives you incredible insight into how you play, what kind of bad habits you have, what kinds of things you do differently to benchmarks and how much dps it costs you.

For example, after watching an [sC] benchmark for Power Weaver I noticed that Fallen[sC] could spike over 60k/s and I could never reproduce this on the dps meter. The best burst I could do was 39k/s. It turned out that being 38 years old with tendinitis, my fingers are a lot slower and stiffer than they used to be. It took me 6.1 seconds to go from Quantum Strike to Firestorm (FGS 5). It took Fallen[sC] 3.4 seconds (!!).

When I saw that information in a graph, that's when it finally dawned on me. I don't think I'm physically capable of 35k/s average, 63k/s burst. Not at my age and not with a chronic wrist injury, but acting on information provided by arcDPS, I was able to go from 18k/s to 30k/s average without straining my wrist. This is the most important thing about dps meters: they help you to correctly identify what is hindering your gameplay the most and what to focus your attention on.

I got to see how clumsy my skill queuing was on a millisecond timeline. My opening rotation was frequently punctuated with auto 1s (there should be none in the burst phase from air/fire to fire/fire). I was ruining my dps uptime with aftercasts. For example, I was using FGS 5->4 and getting animation locked by Firestorm's aftercast instead of doing 4->5 and cancelling Firestorm's aftercast by dropping conjure weapon.

My Primordial Stance alignment was all wrong. I didn't even know this was until Moxie presented it to me in a way that made sense - you want all your Primordial Stance ticks to be in fire attunement so you need to activate it at the last possible moment before switching to fire/fire. I like to have all my skill hotkeys adjacent to WSAD, so I end up using many ctrl and alt modifier shortcuts. This caused me to activate Arcane Blast and Primordial Stance early to avoid piling up hotkeys since I have to cast FGS and switch attunements at the same time. My elite hotkey = Ctrl + F and my air and fire attunement swaps are Ctrl +Middle Mouse Button and Ctrl + E respectively.

Since I already stacked vulnerability to 25 with Quantum Strike and Lightning Storm, I was wasting my Primordial Stance because it was ticking 4 or 5 times in air attunement for vulnerability instead of ticking for burning in fire attunement. ArcDPS also helped me to understand where my damage was coming from on Power Weaver. The top 3 damage sources on my first 30k/s, 4 mill hp training golem run were:

  1. Flame Uprising (529.4k)
  2. Call Lightning (491.5k)
  3. Burning (305.7k)

Yep, burning is in the top 3 single biggest damage dealers on a Power build along with the 3rd strike of air auto attack, despite only being used in 2 attunement swaps after exhausting my burst. You know what is even crazier? I interrupted Call Lightning 11 times by mistake in that run and it still accounts for nearly 1/8th of the total damage I put into the golem. These are things I could not even fathom without analytics. There is no way for your brain to track all of this stuff as its happening, so you need to see the data. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to see it? Is it fear that you might not like what you see?

Some people are going to use the information to put other people down, but that same information is also one of the best ways to pull yourself up.

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ARC has done more to protect people from unjust treatment than any amount of carebearing has ever managed to accomplish. The logs are detailed enough to remove most of the silly assumptions and excuses people would make about why things didn't go as planned. Players are no longer able to blame everyone but themselves for their mistakes.Not to mention that my personal enjoyment of raids, and Fractals for that matter, has grown quite a bit ever since uploading became a thing. The new ability to review minor details and the many ways to further improve my personal play as well as the synergies of my squad has kept me interested far longer than anyone could have guessed. And I am hardly the only one here.

Do not mind a more basic ingame DPS meter. Some people are reluctant to download anything 3rd party and all that. Just hope the entire Build Templates debacle does not happen again. I would be rather disappointed if ArcDPS was to be replaced with a more fancy looking, but ultimately far less comprehensive and less useful ingame tool. Not to mention the possibility of it then being place behind a paywall.

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@Besetment.9187 said:I don't think its possible to correctly evaluate your own performance without it.

I give you a much simpler and better way to rate your performance:Do you have fun performing that way?If yes, just continue.If not, try something else.

This is much better than bending yourself according to some arbitrary numbers that lack any kind of personal flavour.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@Besetment.9187 said:I don't think its possible to correctly evaluate your own performance without it.

I give you a much simpler and better way to rate your performance:Do you have fun performing that way?If yes, just continue.If not, try something else.

This is much better than bending yourself according to some arbitrary numbers that lack any kind of personal flavour.That is perfectly fine approach in a solo content. In a group content, where one player's fun can easily result in loss of enjoyment of others, it becomes a much more complex issue however.

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