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Deadeye - Too powerful?


Vashuddha.1538

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@Yasai.3549 said:

Yup, there is some truth in what you're saying. BUT how often do you use kneel in pvp?I still think kneel is pretty garbage in most situations.

Bruh imo, the entire DE spec is garbage.It capitalizes so hard on the weakness of Thief and disguises it as its strength.

I find it extremely funny as well, that I could dust off my old Sic'em pew pew SB and managed to down a DE in a single One Wolf Pack Sic'Em combo.

So what are you complaining about here, lmao.

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@Yasai.3549 said:

@"kash.9213" said:

Being rooted in Kneel might have been reasoned as enough of a trade off.

What tradeoff?Oh yu mean Kneel still allowing dodge rolling for Stealth and using Shadow Step?

A real trade off is to stop DE from rolling in Kneel :^)

I think he was commenting strictly on the bolded part of the quote and thought you wrote it in reference of cc not dealing dmg after the rebalance. But immob isn't hard cc, so it didn't apply.

Actually now I'm not sure why you wrote "somehow still deals dmg" in the first place.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

So what are you complaining about here, lmao.

Garbage is not enough.It needs to not exist. :^)

No, but my entire spiel is this : There are alot of overloaded 1 press abilities in the game still.All those needs to be changed or nerfed.DE topic is just convinient because it has an overloaded 1 press ability, and Thief in general can trait their Steal to be just as overloaded.

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@Yasai.3549 said:

Being rooted in Kneel might have been reasoned as enough of a trade off.

What tradeoff?Oh yu mean Kneel still allowing dodge rolling for Stealth and using Shadow Step?

A real trade off is to stop DE from rolling in Kneel :^)

I was speculating about what Anets reasoning was. I think rifle 2 is fine, you can still do stuff while immob and while DE is in Kneel is good time to burst counter since they pinned themselves and you can control after you forced dodge or Shadowstep.

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It's designed horribly. As such, with such horrible design, it needs to either be kept kinda weak or is left OP. I'd rather it be weak enough where half the game isn't playing it. Just look at all the fair-weathers who quit it when they made it require a modicum more skill to play in its first round of changes.

It's annoying and frustrating to fight against and not difficult to play as thanks to the stealth access and disengage potential, while exacerbating the most frustrating and game-breaking of the thief's identities.It's why when I proposed the spec I literally advocated against the entire idea of what it currently stands for, despite the community outrage that it wasn't a stealth sniper.

Goes to show most of the people playing their respective classes have absolutely no idea what's good for game health overall and just want free kills with rule of cool, and that ANet's class designers are the same.

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@Yasai.3549 said:

Being rooted in Kneel might have been reasoned as enough of a trade off.

What tradeoff?Oh yu mean Kneel still allowing dodge rolling for Stealth and using Shadow Step?

A real trade off is to stop DE from rolling in Kneel :^)

Kneel is already useless since it replaces all your skills by inferior versions and prevents you from moving. If they prevented dodge rolling in kneel, kneel would have to be buffed way the fuck (including matching Rangers range), and I dont think anyone would enjoy that.

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@"DeceiverX.8361" said:It's designed horribly. As such, with such horrible design, it needs to either be kept kinda weak or is left OP. I'd rather it be weak enough where half the game isn't playing it. Just look at all the fair-weathers who quit it when they made it require a modicum more skill to play in its first round of changes.

It is designed horribly, but not for the reasons you mean. Its basically impossible for the spec to be OP without overtuning numbers to a hilarious degree. Its damage is too reliant on a skill so telegraphed that you shouldnt ever be hit by it (unless its bugged, which does happen), it has close to no survivability especially if you actually try to do damage which requires dumping initiative, and to top it all off its still outranged by ranger.

It's annoying and frustrating to fight against and not difficult to play as thanks to the stealth access and disengage potential, while exacerbating the most frustrating and game-breaking of the thief's identities.

Here is where I would disagree. Its not really annoying or frustrating to fight. Its boring to fight. Sure if the DE wants to survive, he can, but them Im not going to take any noticable amount of damage from them either. And if they try to do damage, I can easily counteract that and kill them. Its just dull how easy it is to win. Its also pretty difficult to play against good enemies precisely because of that.

It's why when I proposed the spec I literally advocated against the entire idea of what it currently stands for, despite the community outrage that it wasn't a stealth sniper.

The stealth is questionable, but not the biggest of the specs issues, since good DEs just straight up avoid being in stealth as much as possible. Its bigger issue is that its a sniper spec when we already had that with Warrior. And its worse than Warrior, at that. To the point where DE isnt played as a sniper at all, but as a midrange run and gun playstyle that suffers from only having 1-2 skills ever worth using on the entire weaponset. What they should do is scrap kneel entirely.

Goes to show most of the people playing their respective classes have absolutely no idea what's good for game health overall and just want free kills with rule of cool, and that ANet's class designers are the same.

Im sure some people want free kills, but its a bit silly to talk about free kills when were talking about DE, a spec that, at its best, was "just below viable", and its worst "entirely unplayable".

Edit: briefly skimming over your idea for Deadeye, its significantly worse. You double down on kneel which is the problem, while thinking that just by removing the (largely irrelevant) stealth, you somehow fix the spec.

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@Yasai.3549 said:

Yup, there is some truth in what you're saying. BUT how often do you use kneel in pvp?I still think kneel is pretty garbage in most situations.

Bruh imo, the entire DE spec is garbage.It capitalizes so hard on the weakness of Thief and disguises it as its strength.

I find it extremely funny as well, that I could dust off my old Sic'em pew pew SB and managed to down a DE in a single One Wolf Pack Sic'Em combo.

hmmm

@Yasai.3549 said:

Being rooted in Kneel might have been reasoned as enough of a trade off.

What tradeoff?Oh yu mean Kneel still allowing dodge rolling for Stealth and using Shadow Step?

A real trade off is to stop DE from rolling in Kneel :^)

So... do you want DEs nerfed or not? Your statements are confusing.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:It's designed horribly. As such, with such horrible design, it needs to either be kept kinda weak or is left OP. I'd rather it be weak enough where half the game isn't playing it. Just look at all the fair-weathers who quit it when they made it require a modicum more skill to play in its first round of changes.

It is designed horribly, but not for the reasons you mean. Its basically impossible for the spec to be OP without overtuning numbers to a hilarious degree. Its damage is too reliant on a skill so telegraphed that you shouldnt ever be hit by it (unless its bugged, which does happen), it has close to no survivability especially if you actually try to do damage which requires dumping initiative, and to top it all off its
still
outranged by ranger.

It's annoying and frustrating to fight against and not difficult to play as thanks to the stealth access and disengage potential, while exacerbating the most frustrating and game-breaking of the thief's identities.

Here is where I would disagree. Its not really annoying or frustrating to fight. Its
boring
to fight. Sure if the DE wants to survive, he can, but them Im not going to take any noticable amount of damage from them either. And if they try to do damage, I can easily counteract that and kill them. Its just dull how easy it is to win. Its also pretty difficult to play against good enemies precisely because of that.

It's why when I proposed the spec I literally advocated against the entire idea of what it currently stands for, despite the community outrage that it wasn't a stealth sniper.

The stealth is questionable, but not the biggest of the specs issues, since good DEs just straight up avoid being in stealth as much as possible. Its bigger issue is that its a sniper spec when we already had that with Warrior. And its worse than Warrior, at that. To the point where DE isnt played as a sniper at all, but as a midrange run and gun playstyle that suffers from only having 1-2 skills ever worth using on the entire weaponset. What they should do is scrap kneel entirely.

Goes to show most of the people playing their respective classes have absolutely no idea what's good for game health overall and just want free kills with rule of cool, and that ANet's class designers are the same.

Im sure some people want free kills, but its a bit silly to talk about free kills when were talking about DE, a spec that, at its best, was "just below viable", and its worst "entirely unplayable".

Edit: briefly skimming over your idea for Deadeye, its significantly worse. You double down on kneel which
is
the problem, while thinking that just by removing the (largely irrelevant) stealth, you somehow fix the spec.

I don't double-down on kneel at all. Stakeout was meant to allow a thief to basically be permastealthed while OOC and not moving or activating abilities. The point is use of extreme mobility while being unable to stealth, and constant attacking and initiative regeneration with lots of active damage negation. What we got was a weird hybrid of stealth burst damage with similar initiative regeneration systems with a focus of the design of the entire spec on a similar concept to Stakeout - a single skill - and approach combat based on burst and high stealth uptime instead of waiting for the person to kill and then going all-in on them clear as day.

I think the issue with DE's power levels are more tied to the sustain-oriented meta in the game right now more than anything else. Remember that prior to all its nerfs, DE was absolutely and undeniably extremely OP. Mostly because it having any semblance of high ratios just broke the thief entirely. #1 in all damage rated stats across all modes and it had the ability to OHKO literally anything in the game. Sure, DJ still had some visibility, but even after the nerfs there, it dominated with D/P permastealth and 3spam kneel builds across the board.

Kneel isn't a good mechanic, because being unable to move while attacking is a flawed dynamic in this game, and I fully agree with the statement. Problem is DE as it stands is entirely about anti-investment and non-interaction (as you said, boring to fight when played optimally) and the kneel skills themselves too weak on an entire spec which is largely designed around being immobile while in combat - the only exception being standing rifle 4. That's the difference between my proposal and the reality of DE; mine focused entirely on mobility akin to how bird soulbeast plays but with less safety/more risk when in combat thanks to revealed+low base thief HP, whereas ANet's does the opposite and thus has this confused identity of needing to have lowish damage since the burst patterns are so hard to predict and have such low visibility.

You should be able to see the pretty glaring differences. Stakeout was a single weapon skill designed for stationary permastealth to do exactly what it says, not the focus of my proposal, and to say SC/Skirmish with a transform mechanic were similar to Mark... you're quite mistaken.

But I digress. At the least, we can agree the DE is bad design across the board. High coefs and it becomes OP like it was historically, and if fixating on kneel and stealth, you have a class that isn't interactive and very boring to play optimally.

I think where we disagree is that even if there was sufficient damage to really burst people down, as long as there is enough on the class to down people with the easy, campy, boring playstyle, people will abuse the hell out of it. They did with condi trapper thief, did with boonbeast, did with full tank chronomancer... people are gonna play cheese for free wins. It's just how it is. My proposal made it impossible to play in such a way, if not compromising certain desired styles like the stealth-sniper in the spec, by deliberately making the spec cheese-proof and require risk to kill with.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:It's designed horribly. As such, with such horrible design, it needs to either be kept kinda weak or is left OP. I'd rather it be weak enough where half the game isn't playing it. Just look at all the fair-weathers who quit it when they made it require a modicum more skill to play in its first round of changes.

It is designed horribly, but not for the reasons you mean. Its basically impossible for the spec to be OP without overtuning numbers to a hilarious degree. Its damage is too reliant on a skill so telegraphed that you shouldnt ever be hit by it (unless its bugged, which does happen), it has close to no survivability especially if you actually try to do damage which requires dumping initiative, and to top it all off its
still
outranged by ranger.

It's annoying and frustrating to fight against and not difficult to play as thanks to the stealth access and disengage potential, while exacerbating the most frustrating and game-breaking of the thief's identities.

Here is where I would disagree. Its not really annoying or frustrating to fight. Its
boring
to fight. Sure if the DE wants to survive, he can, but them Im not going to take any noticable amount of damage from them either. And if they try to do damage, I can easily counteract that and kill them. Its just dull how easy it is to win. Its also pretty difficult to play against good enemies precisely because of that.

It's why when I proposed the spec I literally advocated against the entire idea of what it currently stands for, despite the community outrage that it wasn't a stealth sniper.

The stealth is questionable, but not the biggest of the specs issues, since good DEs just straight up avoid being in stealth as much as possible. Its bigger issue is that its a sniper spec when we already had that with Warrior. And its worse than Warrior, at that. To the point where DE isnt played as a sniper at all, but as a midrange run and gun playstyle that suffers from only having 1-2 skills ever worth using on the entire weaponset. What they should do is scrap kneel entirely.

Goes to show most of the people playing their respective classes have absolutely no idea what's good for game health overall and just want free kills with rule of cool, and that ANet's class designers are the same.

Im sure some people want free kills, but its a bit silly to talk about free kills when were talking about DE, a spec that, at its best, was "just below viable", and its worst "entirely unplayable".

Edit: briefly skimming over your idea for Deadeye, its significantly worse. You double down on kneel which
is
the problem, while thinking that just by removing the (largely irrelevant) stealth, you somehow fix the spec.

I don't double-down on kneel at all. Stakeout was meant to allow a thief to basically be permastealthed while OOC and not moving or activating abilities. The point is use of extreme mobility while being unable to stealth, and constant attacking and initiative regeneration with lots of active damage negation. What we got was a weird hybrid of stealth burst damage with similar initiative regeneration systems with a focus of the design of the entire spec on a similar concept to Stakeout - a single skill - and approach combat based on burst and high stealth uptime instead of waiting for the person to kill and then going all-in on them clear as day.

"Promote maintaining a stationary location instead of being highly-mobile and reward the thief for doing so.". The second goal you outlined for the rifle. Thats doubling down on kneel, is that its the problem. And nah, what we got is a mix of 2 seperate ideas, a mobile run and gun playstyle with a single highpowered shot that anchors you down, and a stationary playstyle that doesnt, and never worked. High stealth uptime isnt, and never was the idea of the spec, and the best playstyle always dropped stealth ASAP because there was no reason to have it.

I think the issue with DE's power levels are more tied to the sustain-oriented meta in the game right now more than anything else. Remember that prior to all its nerfs, DE was absolutely and undeniably extremely OP. Mostly because it having any semblance of high ratios just broke the thief entirely. #1 in all damage rated stats across all modes and it had the ability to OHKO literally anything in the game. Sure, DJ still had some visibility, but even after the nerfs there, it dominated with D/P permastealth and 3spam kneel builds across the board.

Deadeye was never OP. At its best it was "just short of viable", at its worst "entirely unplayable". The most you could say is that the original beta version mightve been good, but since the beta version couldnt be tested out against serious competition and as such we lack data, Deadeye never even crossed into viability. It never came even close to "dominating", and it never had anywhere close to the #1 damage rated stats (it falls woefully short of rangers longbow, which is itself outclassed by most melee builds in terms of raw damage). Deadeyes problems are fundamentally the fact that much of its damage is tied into Deaths Judgment, a skill that never hits, as well a general lack of power for the weaknesses the spec comes with.

Kneel isn't a good mechanic, because being unable to move while attacking is a flawed dynamic in this game, and I fully agree with the statement. Problem is DE as it stands is entirely about anti-investment and non-interaction (as you said, boring to fight when played optimally) and the kneel skills themselves too weak on an entire spec which is largely designed around being immobile while in combat - the only exception being standing rifle 4. That's the difference between my proposal and the reality of DE; mine focused entirely on mobility akin to how bird soulbeast plays but with less safety/more risk when in combat thanks to revealed+low base thief HP, whereas ANet's does the opposite and thus has this confused identity of needing to have lowish damage since the burst patterns are so hard to predict and have such low visibility.

Its not really immobile, it uses Skirmishers shot as its only skill, and that provides with swiftness. Its a run and gun playstyle. Its issue is that again, most of its damage is in DJ which never hits. Its boring because so long as youre not AFK, you can dodge DJ. And as long as you can dodge DJ, the Deadeye is a joke. And no, the burst patterns are incredibly easy to predict (because its not patterns, its a single pattern. 222-> DJ), and have incredibly high visibility (I struggle to think of a more telegraphed skill than DJ. Deadeye doesnt have particularly low damage, if you were to hit the damage consistently. It just doesnt have the ability to hits its damage consistently because of the high visibility and easy prediction.

You should be able to see the pretty glaring differences. Stakeout was a single weapon skill designed for stationary permastealth to do exactly what it says, not the focus of my proposal, and to say SC/Skirmish with a transform mechanic were similar to Mark... you're quite mistaken.

But I digress. At the least, we can agree the DE is bad design across the board. High coefs and it becomes OP like it was historically, and if fixating on kneel and stealth, you have a class that isn't interactive and very boring to play optimally.

It again was never OP. The level of high coefficients it would need to even approach being OP are so absurd that we still have plenty of room to buff it up majorly. And noone cares about stealth or kneel on it, because the optimal way to play DE ignores the latter and spends as little time as possible (and indeed, doesnt use SA) on the former. The problem is that you cant make it good without having absurdly high coefficients because of how little the build can actually do, and how easy it is to avoid the damage to the point of being a joke. Its Rangers longbow, just worse in every way.

I think where we disagree is that even if there was sufficient damage to really burst people down, as long as there is enough on the class to down people with the easy, campy, boring playstyle, people will abuse the hell out of it. They did with condi trapper thief, did with boonbeast, did with full tank chronomancer... people are gonna play cheese for free wins. It's just how it is. My proposal made it impossible to play in such a way, if not compromising certain desired styles like the stealth-sniper in the spec, by deliberately making the spec cheese-proof and require risk to kill with.

Your proposal simply put wouldve been unplayable. Rifle is a useless weapon you would never use, Crossbows gimmick makes it nearly unusable (and it also only has 1 skill ever worth using, skill 2). It also is a confused mess of a spec as it wants you to stay revealed as much as possible (as if thats a downside in combat, and not a straight upside thanks to revealed power), yet you have only 1 good way to activate revealed, which is with your steal.

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@saerni.2584 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:Lol...players asking for buffs on deadeye....absurd...completely absurd

Yeah, its so absurd that people want an elite spec that is completely unviable in both PvP gamemodes to be buffed. Though, that being said, a rework is better, just cut kneel.

-Only a well played herald or sustain soulbeast got any chance to kill a DE not played by a potato-Most specs haven't got the mobility to either catch it up or run away from it-things like
Silent Scope
are still present in game...the only reason why people don't complain about it now, it's because the dmg has been nerfed....otherwise...

The only type of DE that cant be killed is the one that also doesnt do anything. That is equally useless. You dont need to catch up to a class when that class is entirely useless, just ignore them and enjoy your free 5v4. And Silent Scope is still just a 1 second stealth that basically does nothing.

It’s better in WvW where you can use food to get +40% endurance regen. That lets you chain a lot more stealth and effectively stall out most people permanently.

I think the bigger problem with perma stealth is the amount of blind fields DE/thief has access to combo. DE being able to drop snipers cover/black powder/smokescreen and swap to d/p or short bow for the blast/leap finishers essentially ensures nothing can out stealth them. Then ofcourse by the time the stealth has ended all init that was spent stealthing would have regenerated. If a class wants to stack stealth they should at the very least be forced to use cool downs that won't be back up by the time their stealth ends. Of course you can counter this by standing in the blind fields, but this essentially gives the thief a free hit/burst.

Dodge food is great don't get me wrong, which is why I'm actually running it, but it only works out to be an extra dodge every 15-20 seconds or so, which is amazing, but not the greatest method of perma stealthing.

Hey Doug! I was that thief you were fighting in the ruins :D

Wouldn’t the big endurance gain be from the food plus Vigor? I more meant that the food is what makes the Sniper trait viable as a consistent source of stealth. With the nerfs it is definitely not the main stealth access if you are built for stealth stacking.

Oh hey hahaha I didn't recognise your account name :D .Tbh I'd say that the sniper trait (silent scope?) is still viable without 40% food, don't forget the base stats it give you when using rifle. I'd agree its definitely the most consistent of course, but I think its strength lies in weaving in and out of stealth. Constantly firing DJ to the point where your enemy simply runs out of cool downs. This ofcourse varies depending on what and who you're fighting. Blind field combo finishers are in my opinion the most efficient way of abusing perma stealth. Using initiative to stack stealth is far cheaper and less punishing when the alternative is using dodges/heals/utilities to remain stealthed. One method sees you coming out of stealth without any dodges or utilities. Whilst the other usually ensures your initiative has regenerated by the time stealth ends allowing the thief to immediately go on the offensive with the cool downs/initiative available to run away if they choose. The former method does not have that luxury.

So whilst food + Vigor give amazing endurance regen, its still comes at a price if you can catch them out, whilst blind field combo's are a far safe and more efficient way of achieving superior results.

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@Yasai.3549 said:

Being rooted in Kneel might have been reasoned as enough of a trade off.

What tradeoff?Oh yu mean Kneel still allowing dodge rolling for Stealth and using Shadow Step?

A real trade off is to stop DE from rolling in Kneel :^)

I've always thought marked was the trade off? Core thief 1200 unit teleport. Dare Devil 600 unit teleport. DE no teleport.

Oh the abominable builds I could make If DE had a 1200 range steal. But that would be overpowered, thus the trade off.

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@"DeceiverX.8361" said:It's designed horribly. As such, with such horrible design, it needs to either be kept kinda weak or is left OP. I'd rather it be weak enough where half the game isn't playing it. Just look at all the fair-weathers who quit it when they made it require a modicum more skill to play in its first round of changes.

It's annoying and frustrating to fight against and not difficult to play as thanks to the stealth access and disengage potential, while exacerbating the most frustrating and game-breaking of the thief's identities.It's why when I proposed the spec I literally advocated against the entire idea of what it currently stands for, despite the community outrage that it wasn't a stealth sniper.

Goes to show most of the people playing their respective classes have absolutely no idea what's good for game health overall and just want free kills with rule of cool, and that ANet's class designers are the same.

Let me correct you on one small thing : the average person knows what equality is....but equality does not translate to fun because fun=easy kill......no matter what anybody may tell you, deep down every player is the same fun=easy kill, consciously or subconsciously players and devs alike will move their personal agenda towards that goal.

Look at thief players suggesting you to "run" away from DE...the same players then go and complain about other classes, what should we tell them in that occasion?..."just run away" would be the answer

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:It's designed horribly. As such, with such horrible design, it needs to either be kept kinda weak or is left OP. I'd rather it be weak enough where half the game isn't playing it. Just look at all the fair-weathers who quit it when they made it require a modicum more skill to play in its first round of changes.

It's annoying and frustrating to fight against and not difficult to play as thanks to the stealth access and disengage potential, while exacerbating the most frustrating and game-breaking of the thief's identities.It's why when I proposed the spec I literally advocated against the entire idea of what it currently stands for, despite the community outrage that it wasn't a stealth sniper.

Goes to show most of the people playing their respective classes have absolutely no idea what's good for game health overall and just want free kills with rule of cool, and that ANet's class designers are the same.

Let me correct you on one small thing : the average person knows what equality is....but equality does not translate to fun because fun=easy kill......no matter what anybody may tell you, deep down every player is the same
fun=easy kill
, consciously or subconsciously players and devs alike will move their personal agenda towards that goal.

Look at thief players suggesting you to "run" away from DE...the same players then go and complain about other classes, what should we tell them in that occasion?..."just run away" would be the answer

Ok I get that your bias blinds you, but noone suggested to run from DE. Why would you? They are going to run from you.

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@mikdepadua.8376 said:

Yup, there is some truth in what you're saying. BUT how often do you use kneel in pvp?I still think kneel is pretty garbage in most situations.

Bruh imo, the entire DE spec is garbage.It capitalizes so hard on the weakness of Thief and disguises it as its strength.

I find it extremely funny as well, that I could dust off my old Sic'em pew pew SB and managed to down a DE in a single One Wolf Pack Sic'Em combo.

hmmm

Being rooted in Kneel might have been reasoned as enough of a trade off.

What tradeoff?Oh yu mean Kneel still allowing dodge rolling for Stealth and using Shadow Step?

A real trade off is to stop DE from rolling in Kneel :^)

So... do you want DEs nerfed or not? Your statements are confusing.

I think this shows the state of many people on this forum. They take a single isolated mechanic/skill, deem it OP, claim it needs to be nerfed (but in many cases removed, because if my class can't do it, then nobody should) and when they realise they're wrong for example after they contradict themselves, follow up with a meme or a joke in an attempt to not completely admit it and *poof*, gone. :anguished:

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@Sobx.1758 said:

Yup, there is some truth in what you're saying. BUT how often do you use kneel in pvp?I still think kneel is pretty garbage in most situations.

Bruh imo, the entire DE spec is garbage.It capitalizes so hard on the weakness of Thief and disguises it as its strength.

I find it extremely funny as well, that I could dust off my old Sic'em pew pew SB and managed to down a DE in a single One Wolf Pack Sic'Em combo.

hmmm

Being rooted in Kneel might have been reasoned as enough of a trade off.

What tradeoff?Oh yu mean Kneel still allowing dodge rolling for Stealth and using Shadow Step?

A real trade off is to stop DE from rolling in Kneel :^)

So... do you want DEs nerfed or not? Your statements are confusing.

I think this shows the state of many people on this forum. They take a single isolated mechanic/skill, deem it OP, claim it needs to be nerfed (but in many cases removed, because if my class can't do it, then nobody should) and when they realise they're wrong for example after they contradict themselves, follow up with a meme or a joke in an attempt to not completely admit it and *poof*, gone. :anguished:

IKR. Plain nonsense.

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I find it so very strange that when DD released and people had an issue with Staff and things like Vault , they always referred to Staff and vault as an issue and not the Daredevil spec. DD builds of other weapon sets were not lumped in with the spec itself just because of vault and the staff builds evades.

On the other hand when people talk about DE the refer to the entire SPEC when they are only talking about rifle.

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@babazhook.6805 said:I find it so very strange that when DD released and people had an issue with Staff and things like Vault , they always referred to Staff and vault as an issue and not the Daredevil spec. DD builds of other weapon sets were not lumped in with the spec itself just because of vault and the staff builds evades.

On the other hand when people talk about DE the refer to the entire SPEC when they are only talking about rifle.

So few DE run without rifle, which is imho a mistake.

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