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Roaming // Condi builds forcing us to sacrifice crucial build elements for cleanse uptime


solemn.9670

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@babazhook.6805 said:No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

Ehhh.. I think I'm preaching to the choir at this point but for the record, I still don't understand how this is a valid argument for condi being underpowered / balanced.

If a condi build's burst is 5k/s, i.e. burn guard ....Or a condi mesmer's burst is 4k/s, i.e. a competent condi mirage ...and a power build's burst is 4k/s, i.e. power rev, power reaper, literally anything power that is built correctly etc,or a deadeye 3-shots you doing 6k/sor a condi thief bleeds you down while you're off-cooldown doing 3k/s

What is the big difference here that I'm apparently not seeingHow is it being DOT not a moot point

I understand that condi damage is dealt over time.If there were no cleanses, condi DPS+DOT would be absurdly unbalanced

Condi DPS is still quite good

I don't understand

DPS is still DPS

???????????????

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@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@babazhook.6805 said:No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

Ehhh.. I think I'm preaching to the choir at this point but for the record, I still don't understand how this is a valid argument for condi being underpowered / balanced.

If a condi build's burst is 5k/s, i.e. burn guard ....Or a condi mesmer's burst is 4k/s, i.e. a competent condi mirage ...and a power build's burst is 4k/s, i.e. power rev, power reaper, literally anything power that is built correctly etc,or a deadeye 3-shots you doing 6k/sor a condi thief bleeds you down while you're off-cooldown doing 3k/s

What is the big difference here that I'm apparently not seeingHow is it being DOT not a moot point

I understand that condi damage is dealt over time.If there were no cleanses, condi DPS+DOT would be absurdly unbalanced

Condi DPS is still quite good

I don't understand

DPS is still DPS

???????????????

The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

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@Kulvar.1239 said:The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

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@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:I typed a long detailed post and decided to delete it because condi-mains will just reply with "jUsT cLeanSe JuSt DoDgE" regardless. You can't fix people like that and I won't try to change their minds.

Fact of the matter: condi is OP and every competent player who wants to win at least 8/10 matchups is forced to run a build with antitoxin rune, or lose every time vs condi mirage, core necro, occasionally to burn guard, and condi rev (to an even lesser degree). There is simply not enough condi cleanse in the game to deal with these builds without specifically building against them (i.e. antitoxin fire weaver), sacrificing crucial traits that would be of value vs power enemies or forcing certain builds and decreasing build diversity/overall fun of the game...

overpowered builds are overpowered, enough said. please don't take half a year to patch this.

-solemn

+1

Toxicity were there before we decided to play WvW and PvP. The signs were there. We may have chosen to look the other way, but the signs were always there.

There are no remedy or antiToxin in combating 8 years of rooted ignored Toxicity without removing it at its core root....

or simply...walk away from it

you and i deserve better of 8 years of neglect

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@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

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@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

There's a much much more powerful boon than protection against condi its called resistance.

Also there's no way there's more dmg reducing traits than there is cleanses in the game.

edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

It requires you to manage your clears (or to just run something with enough clears to be essentially immune to condi /shrug).

Managing your clears is a skill like any other and imo a far more interesting one than whatever skill is needed to avoid power dmg.

You can have the opinion that condi is overpowered or unfun or whatever, that's your prerogative, I think you're wrong and that it's very much an l2p issue but it's kinda hard to prove one way or another. However saying it has less counterplay than power is just objectively wrong.

Counterplay to power

Dodging

Blocking

Invulns

Damage reducers (protection, toughness, ascended food etc)

Healing

Counterplay to condi

Dodging

Damage reducers (righteous rebel, second skin, some food, various runes)

Duration reducers (ascended food, various traits and runes)

Resistance (!!!)

Cleansing (traits, skills, sigils, runes, the best one being available at extremely low opportunity cost)

Invulns

Healing

In addition to this, condi by design gives your more time to execute said counterplay than power does.

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@"SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026" said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

There's a much much more powerful boon than protection against condi its called resistance.

Also there's no way there's more dmg reducing traits than there is cleanses in the game.

edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

It requires you to manage your clears (or to just run something with enough clears to be essentially immune to condi /shrug).

Managing your clears is a skill like any other and imo a far more interesting one than whatever skill is needed to avoid power dmg.

You can have the opinion that condi is overpowered or unfun or whatever, that's your prerogative, I think you're wrong and that it's very much an l2p issue but it's kinda hard to prove one way or another.
However
saying it has less counterplay than power is just objectively wrong.

Counterplay to power

Dodging

Blocking

Invulns

Damage reducers (protection, toughness, ascended food etc)

Healing

Counterplay to condi

Dodging

Damage reducers (righteous rebel, second skin, some food, various runes)

Duration reducers (ascended food, various traits and runes)

Resistance (!!!)

Cleansing (traits, skills, sigils, runes, the best one being available at extremely low opportunity cost)

Invulns

Healing

In addition to this, condi by design gives your more time to execute said counterplay than power does.

Yes the big thing is time. Just as more time needed to get those stacks of conditions on and eventually wear out the opponent, the person on the receiving end has more time to use the heals, regen and cleanses. If you get into a fight against power or against Condition generally you will be able to use your heals more often against a condition build and this shows in those screenshots of sources of damage in Pvp.

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@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@babazhook.6805 said:No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

Ehhh.. I think I'm preaching to the choir at this point but for the record, I still don't understand how this is a valid argument for condi being underpowered / balanced.

If a condi build's burst is 5k/s, i.e. burn guard ....Or a condi mesmer's burst is 4k/s, i.e. a competent condi mirage ...and a power build's burst is 4k/s, i.e. power rev, power reaper, literally anything power that is built correctly etc,or a deadeye 3-shots you doing 6k/sor a condi thief bleeds you down while you're off-cooldown doing 3k/s

What is the big difference here that I'm apparently not seeingHow is it being DOT not a moot point

I understand that condi damage is dealt over time.If there were no cleanses, condi DPS+DOT would be absurdly unbalanced

Condi DPS is still quite good

I don't understand

DPS is still DPS

???????????????

DPS is not still DPS. The types of DPS are different.

Lets just take a simple example. Now this just breaking it down to the bare basics for the sake of clarity.

Two players each have 2000 HPS. Power player has a single big attack that can hit for 1500 damage and there no way to avoid it. That means he took the other player down to 500. This attack happens once every 10 seconds. Thats 150 DPS.

The Condition player has an attack that can do 1500 damage over 10 seconds and there no way to avoid it. They are both doing the same amount of damage over that 10 second period but there no way the types of damage comparable.

Assume there regen running and that the only heal and the person gets a 150 per tick regen.

The player playing against the Condition build will never see his health drop below 2000. The person playing against the power build will at some point be down to 500 health. Where the condition player now needs 10 seconds to get back to full health , the Power player needs no such thing. They never have to use their regular heal.

Now if both have a second attack that can do 700 damage , one over time and one instantly , that Power player could never lose such a matchup. Now obviously this is not what happens in game but it does show why Condition builds generally need that toughness and vitality from something like DIRE and TB.

Consequently if there was a log detailing damage sources before death a person will see far more damage from Condition sources then from power sources before they die meaning that power is more efficient when looking at amount of damage needed to make a kill. This does not mean Conditions are Underpowered or that Power damage is OP. It merely means there IS a trade off in condition build and that trade off is more time is needed and it shows there plenty of Counter play to Conditions.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

This is what I keep saying. I don't WANT to be forced to play fire weaver. I don't even WANT to play fire weaver most days, why should I be forced into it just to have a chance vs cond builds!?

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@babazhook.6805 said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@babazhook.6805 said:No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

Ehhh.. I think I'm preaching to the choir at this point but for the record, I still don't understand how this is a valid argument for condi being underpowered / balanced.

If a condi build's burst is 5k/s, i.e. burn guard ....Or a condi mesmer's burst is 4k/s, i.e. a competent condi mirage ...and a power build's burst is 4k/s, i.e. power rev, power reaper, literally anything power that is built correctly etc,or a deadeye 3-shots you doing 6k/sor a condi thief bleeds you down while you're off-cooldown doing 3k/s

What is the big difference here that I'm apparently not seeingHow is it being DOT not a moot point

I understand that condi damage is dealt over time.If there were no cleanses, condi DPS+DOT would be absurdly unbalanced

Condi DPS is still quite good

I don't understand

DPS is still DPS

???????????????

DPS is not still DPS. The types of DPS are different.

Lets just take a simple example. Now this just breaking it down to the bare basics for the sake of clarity.

Two players each have 2000 HPS. Power player has a single big attack that can hit for 1500 damage and there no way to avoid it. That means he took the other player down to 500. This attack happens once every 10 seconds. Thats 150 DPS.

The Condition player has an attack that can do 1500 damage over 10 seconds and there no way to avoid it. They are both doing the same amount of damage over that 10 second period but there no way the types of damage comparable.

Assume there regen running and that the only heal and the person gets a 150 per tick regen.

The player playing against the Condition build will never see his health drop below 2000. The person playing against the power build will at some point be down to 500 health. Where the condition player now needs 10 seconds to get back to full health , the Power player needs no such thing. They never have to use their regular heal.

Now if both have a second attack that can do 700 damage , one over time and one instantly , that Power player could never lose such a matchup. Now obviously this is not what happens in game but it does show why Condition builds generally need that toughness and vitality from something like DIRE and TB.

Consequently if there was a log detailing damage sources before death a person will see far more damage from Condition sources then from power sources before they die meaning that power is more efficient when looking at amount of damage needed to make a kill. This does not mean Conditions are Underpowered or that Power damage is OP. It merely means there IS a trade off in condition build and that trade off is more time is needed and it shows there plenty of Counter play to Conditions.

I understand the concept of DOT. Fact of the matter is that condi dps is still too high. Condi mirage presses 3 buttons and if you're off-cleanse you've just lost the battle.

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@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

This is what I keep saying. I don't WANT to be forced to play fire weaver. I don't even WANT to play fire weaver most days, why should I be forced into it just to have a chance vs cond builds!?

Water offers strong clears.

Earth offers strong clears.

Fire offers strong clears.

Cleansing by itself offers enough clears for burstier mobile specs.

It sounds to me like you want to play a build with 0 cleanses and still be able to facetank condi builds

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@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@babazhook.6805 said:No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

Ehhh.. I think I'm preaching to the choir at this point but for the record, I still don't understand how this is a valid argument for condi being underpowered / balanced.

If a condi build's burst is 5k/s, i.e. burn guard ....Or a condi mesmer's burst is 4k/s, i.e. a competent condi mirage ...and a power build's burst is 4k/s, i.e. power rev, power reaper, literally anything power that is built correctly etc,or a deadeye 3-shots you doing 6k/sor a condi thief bleeds you down while you're off-cooldown doing 3k/s

What is the big difference here that I'm apparently not seeingHow is it being DOT not a moot point

I understand that condi damage is dealt over time.If there were no cleanses, condi DPS+DOT would be absurdly unbalanced

Condi DPS is still quite good

I don't understand

DPS is still DPS

???????????????

DPS is not still DPS. The types of DPS are different.

Lets just take a simple example. Now this just breaking it down to the bare basics for the sake of clarity.

Two players each have 2000 HPS. Power player has a single big attack that can hit for 1500 damage and there no way to avoid it. That means he took the other player down to 500. This attack happens once every 10 seconds. Thats 150 DPS.

The Condition player has an attack that can do 1500 damage over 10 seconds and there no way to avoid it. They are both doing the same amount of damage over that 10 second period but there no way the types of damage comparable.

Assume there regen running and that the only heal and the person gets a 150 per tick regen.

The player playing against the Condition build will never see his health drop below 2000. The person playing against the power build will at some point be down to 500 health. Where the condition player now needs 10 seconds to get back to full health , the Power player needs no such thing. They never have to use their regular heal.

Now if both have a second attack that can do 700 damage , one over time and one instantly , that Power player could never lose such a matchup. Now obviously this is not what happens in game but it does show why Condition builds generally need that toughness and vitality from something like DIRE and TB.

Consequently if there was a log detailing damage sources before death a person will see far more damage from Condition sources then from power sources before they die meaning that power is more efficient when looking at amount of damage needed to make a kill. This does not mean Conditions are Underpowered or that Power damage is OP. It merely means there IS a trade off in condition build and that trade off is more time is needed and it shows there plenty of Counter play to Conditions.

I understand the concept of DOT. Fact of the matter is that condi dps is still too high. Condi mirage presses 3 buttons and if you're off-cleanse you've just lost the battle.Then the fact of the matter is
not
that "condi dps is still to high".

Its that mirage skills still applies too many stacks of torment (possibly that torment runes are too strong too).

See the difference?

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@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@babazhook.6805 said:No a dedicated healer is not needed. The CONDI total damage will always be several times higher than a players life total and much more pronounced then the power damage that shows in those logs. This is due to damage over time as opposed to singular large hits. It does not mean you need multiple heal sources. As example a person might heal once every 20 seconds with their main heal. When you face a Condition build you do not need an immediate heal. You can burn your health down as those ticks are doing damage and heal when health low. You can cleanse then heal forcing a restart of the Condition applications. This is very much unlike taking a 15k power damage hit where you pretty close to a forced heal. Added to those smaller heals like Regen or healing signet , adrenal and so on work more effectively against Conditions . If as example I have a 300 per torment tick and I have 300 per second in other heals such as outlined in ten seconds I will taken 3000 damage sum total but my health would still be full. This is NOT the same as taking 3000 damage in a singular hit as it now takes ten seconds to get that health back via that regen source.

Again those death logs always show Condition damage deaths as 4 or 5 times higher then power damage deaths. If the heals equal then that dedicated healer should work just as effectively against power. That is not the case. People in PvP have shown those death breakdowns after 1v1's and it the same. Condition damage total before you drop is always higher meaning the Condition damage player has to inflict way more damage total in order to get a kill.

Ehhh.. I think I'm preaching to the choir at this point but for the record, I still don't understand how this is a valid argument for condi being underpowered / balanced.

If a condi build's burst is 5k/s, i.e. burn guard ....Or a condi mesmer's burst is 4k/s, i.e. a competent condi mirage ...and a power build's burst is 4k/s, i.e. power rev, power reaper, literally anything power that is built correctly etc,or a deadeye 3-shots you doing 6k/sor a condi thief bleeds you down while you're off-cooldown doing 3k/s

What is the big difference here that I'm apparently not seeingHow is it being DOT not a moot point

I understand that condi damage is dealt over time.If there were no cleanses, condi DPS+DOT would be absurdly unbalanced

Condi DPS is still quite good

I don't understand

DPS is still DPS

???????????????

DPS is not still DPS. The types of DPS are different.

Lets just take a simple example. Now this just breaking it down to the bare basics for the sake of clarity.

Two players each have 2000 HPS. Power player has a single big attack that can hit for 1500 damage and there no way to avoid it. That means he took the other player down to 500. This attack happens once every 10 seconds. Thats 150 DPS.

The Condition player has an attack that can do 1500 damage over 10 seconds and there no way to avoid it. They are both doing the same amount of damage over that 10 second period but there no way the types of damage comparable.

Assume there regen running and that the only heal and the person gets a 150 per tick regen.

The player playing against the Condition build will never see his health drop below 2000. The person playing against the power build will at some point be down to 500 health. Where the condition player now needs 10 seconds to get back to full health , the Power player needs no such thing. They never have to use their regular heal.

Now if both have a second attack that can do 700 damage , one over time and one instantly , that Power player could never lose such a matchup. Now obviously this is not what happens in game but it does show why Condition builds generally need that toughness and vitality from something like DIRE and TB.

Consequently if there was a log detailing damage sources before death a person will see far more damage from Condition sources then from power sources before they die meaning that power is more efficient when looking at amount of damage needed to make a kill. This does not mean Conditions are Underpowered or that Power damage is OP. It merely means there IS a trade off in condition build and that trade off is more time is needed and it shows there plenty of Counter play to Conditions.

I understand the concept of DOT. Fact of the matter is that condi dps is still too high. Condi mirage presses 3 buttons and if you're off-cleanse you've just lost the battle.

And If I have used my last block or dodge and get hit by a 12000 damage power attack I have lost the battle. The other day I was not paying attention to a guardian nearby as I was focused on another. I was in a power build glassy spec with a little over 15k health. I was downed in one shot. While I could have dodged that shot if I had a dodge left to me once it hit I was DOWNED.

I can be hit my that mesmer with that condition load from those buttons you talk about (3 buttons pushed as compared to that guardians one) and still manage to survive. What i find so contradictory when people who are convinced Condition builds OP is they will point out there fewer tells on some of the big condition attacks when compared to power. They are talking 1 second and less yet when a Condition applied they suddenly do not have time to do anything about it when they generally have several seconds to do so. You can react after a condition bomb loaded on you because it DOT and you have those seconds to cleanse, heal or throw up resistance. Swap weapons with a cleansing sigil if you need to.

Now might there be outliers in specific condition damage builds that need looking at? Perhaps but that does not mean "Condi is OP' or that "There fewer Counters to Condi" or that there a problem with Condition damage based builds and the mechanics used.

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i'm surprised that there's still people who haven't figured out how to counter condi. i've played mostly condi builds and now i'm starting to look more at power builds because for me it feels like everyone is just puking out cleanses left and right so i hardly get to do any damage.

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@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

This is what I keep saying. I don't WANT to be forced to play fire weaver. I don't even WANT to play fire weaver most days, why should I be forced into it just to have a chance vs cond builds!?

Because Fire is the default DPS attunement for elementalist and you can't win if you don't do DPS.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

Yes of course fire weaver still works very well against condi.I don't want to play fire weaver anymore though.

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@Kulvar.1239 said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

This is what I keep saying. I don't WANT to be forced to play fire weaver. I don't even WANT to play fire weaver most days, why should I be forced into it just to have a chance vs cond builds!?

Because Fire is the default DPS attunement for elementalist and you can't win if you don't do DPS.

Can't tell if sarcastic or genuine so I'll answer literally - no it isn't. Running lightning is much more fun and does VERY good dps.

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@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:The more prevalent are cleanses, the most bursty conditions must be to not be meaningless.If there was no cleanses at all, skills wouldn't apply several stacks at once, Burning damage would be reduced, condition base duration would be increased, and condi build would be the absolute top DPS, while power would be better at short bursts to deal the killing blow.

Which is a fair point until you're off-cleanse for 4 seconds and find yourself 1/4 health suddenly. It's not like vs power builds where you can apply protection or utilize damage-reducing traits, you're just screwed if you get caught off-cleanse. Am I whining? That seems unfair to me.

edit: it's similar to the feeling I get when I'm stunlocked. It's not a challenge. It does not require me to have some skillful reaction. All I can do is sit and die. That is what I don't like about it. You have too many condis on you suddenly and you're off-cleanse? There is literally nothing you can do about it, have fun dying. Same with being CC-spammed to death or feared for 10 seconds. It's silly.

You're a fire weaver, though, right? So here's what I don't get...

Rotate fire for a condi cleanse. Rotate earth. Detonate + fire aura for a 3 condi cleanse. Flamewall (if convenient). Rotate air. Polaric leap combo off flamewall + magnetic wave for a 4 condi cleanse. Rotate water. Dodge for a condi cleanse. And so on.

You have cleanse baked into literally every part of your rotation and you also have a million evades, reflects, projectile blocks, heals, barrier, invuln, counter-pressure and CC to buy time between them. Add cleansing sigil because it's a no-brainer and why would you ever need antitoxin runes?

Even if they get the drop on you with a CC condi bomb that takes you low, you're a fire weaver! Recovering from burst is usually as easy as dodging and then rotating into an advantageous attunement.

I know we aren't as strong as we were prior to 2/25, but this still feels like a versatile build that is well-equipped to handle a variety of builds both power and condi. But then again, I do seem to be somewhat on my own on this one. I can't say I see any other fire weavers out there and sword seems to be a rather unpopular choice? ::shrug:: Still works for me!

This is what I keep saying. I don't WANT to be forced to play fire weaver. I don't even WANT to play fire weaver most days, why should I be forced into it just to have a chance vs cond builds!?

Because Fire is the default DPS attunement for elementalist and you can't win if you don't do DPS.

Can't tell if sarcastic or genuine so I'll answer literally - no it isn't. Running lightning is much more fun and does VERY good dps.

I really can't tell if you guys are on about the attunement or the traitline in this exchange. Though its fun to see D/D Weaver

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

I have yet to see a single ele
roaming
in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

Fair enough. I’m not very knowledgeable in ele so I can’t say for sure. I did see one doing very well though, outsustaining even against good players on power soulbeasts. But as you said, that ele might just be an even better player than those he fought.

And just to clarify, I don’t mean ele as in core ele. That good player I saw was using a weaver ?

I solo roam on fire weaver and I still feel very comfortable with it (before and after 2/25), but I almost never see other sword weavers roaming or in PvP. Most weavers I see run dagger and most of those are running LR builds. Core ele is even more rare, but tempests are pretty common (though they usually run with allies and play support).

Here's a video of a renegade and a soulbeast turning me into a pincushion for a couple of minutes until I finally manage to overwhelm and finish them. There was a tempest, too, but he came over and bit off a lot more than he could chew before his friends could save him! Sorry, brother! But you did come over and pick that fight! :)

I wonder what you guys think of this fight? Obviously, if I am winning 1v3 (or 1v2, whatever you wanna call this!), it's unlikely that my opponents are on my level (whatever that is!). But my class knowledge is terrible and I can't say for certain how skilled my opponents are in outnumbered fights. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and counter-pressure! Would you say it's the build that is OP? I am just a lot better than the guys I am fighting? It just seems like impressions of competitive modes in this game are so subjective, it's like we're all playing our own version of the game, specific to us. But I'd still be curious to hear some opinions on this condi build that most people don't seem to be complaining about (is it a "sleeper" build?).

Thats simple, because sword is dead. Dagger MH is meta and there shouldnt be any doubts, Dagger OH is just bad and stupidity of cmc or other balance dev that silently nerfed Updraft aint helping. Sword nerfs on both evades and stability makes it hardly viable, especially for power, you have little passive damage (because they took Primordial Stance) and each CC can be your death. That makes my spec, that I played since the start of PoF till its very end (Feb patch) - sw/d power - dead. Condi (fireweaver) is still available because of condi, which is passive damage and you simply dont care about stuns, damage will still flow. How ironic, ANet killed avatarsword when they were aiming for fireweaver, and fireweaver is still fine.Personally I spit on ele condi builds, can play both core d/d and old avatarsword but only because I perfectly know its limits and when/how to put pressure (high leg player, blahblahblah) so each fight doesnt end as stalemate. Its masochistic, LR Weaver is just better in almost every way and that makes me sad.

Roaming now is boring anyways. The amount of ppl that play bunker/condi builds is just hillarious, we swapped 10k crits for 10 minutes fights, whoever makes more mistakes because of boredom - loses. But in media res of our topic - ele shouldnt have much problems with condis. If you take fire - just use auras, if you take water - just use F2, if you take Weaver - just read traits. Other classes can easily handle condi problem as well, you dont need to sacrifice anything, just swap one or two traits/skills and should be fine. As already said, boring meta.

PS: About the video - lots of mistakes (probably because as you said, low class knowledge) and enemies are one of those backpedaling....sheeps. But at least we can see example of how condi carries ppl ^.^

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

I have yet to see a single ele
roaming
in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

Fair enough. I’m not very knowledgeable in ele so I can’t say for sure. I did see one doing very well though, outsustaining even against good players on power soulbeasts. But as you said, that ele might just be an even better player than those he fought.

And just to clarify, I don’t mean ele as in core ele. That good player I saw was using a weaver ?

I solo roam on fire weaver and I still feel very comfortable with it (before and after 2/25), but I almost never see other sword weavers roaming or in PvP. Most weavers I see run dagger and most of those are running LR builds. Core ele is even more rare, but tempests are pretty common (though they usually run with allies and play support).

Here's a video of a renegade and a soulbeast turning me into a pincushion for a couple of minutes until I finally manage to overwhelm and finish them. There was a tempest, too, but he came over and bit off a lot more than he could chew before his friends could save him! Sorry, brother! But you did come over and pick that fight! :)

I wonder what you guys think of this fight? Obviously, if I am winning 1v3 (or 1v2, whatever you wanna call this!), it's unlikely that my opponents are on my level (whatever that is!). But my class knowledge is terrible and I can't say for certain how skilled my opponents are in outnumbered fights. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and counter-pressure! Would you say it's the build that is OP? I am just a lot better than the guys I am fighting? It just seems like impressions of competitive modes in this game are so subjective, it's like we're all playing our own version of the game, specific to us. But I'd still be curious to hear some opinions on this condi build that most people don't seem to be complaining about (is it a "sleeper" build?).

That build get obliterated by any serious roaming spec minus try hard d/p or s/d thieves which can jump on DE and still rock your world

  • ranger can easily outclean/outsustain if using high CC buld with rock gazelle
  • dh burn can easily burst you down, assuming you're running fire/arcana and not fire/water in which case...you still end up not doing enough dmg in the end to win
  • condi rev can murder you easily
  • shout warrior will laugh at you

No..you can't win fire weaver against competent players used to your spec

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@Supreme.3164 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

I have yet to see a single ele
roaming
in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

Fair enough. I’m not very knowledgeable in ele so I can’t say for sure. I did see one doing very well though, outsustaining even against good players on power soulbeasts. But as you said, that ele might just be an even better player than those he fought.

And just to clarify, I don’t mean ele as in core ele. That good player I saw was using a weaver ?

I solo roam on fire weaver and I still feel very comfortable with it (before and after 2/25), but I almost never see other sword weavers roaming or in PvP. Most weavers I see run dagger and most of those are running LR builds. Core ele is even more rare, but tempests are pretty common (though they usually run with allies and play support).

Here's a video of a renegade and a soulbeast turning me into a pincushion for a couple of minutes until I finally manage to overwhelm and finish them. There was a tempest, too, but he came over and bit off a lot more than he could chew before his friends could save him! Sorry, brother! But you did come over and pick that fight! :)

I wonder what you guys think of this fight? Obviously, if I am winning 1v3 (or 1v2, whatever you wanna call this!), it's unlikely that my opponents are on my level (whatever that is!). But my class knowledge is terrible and I can't say for certain how skilled my opponents are in outnumbered fights. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and counter-pressure! Would you say it's the build that is OP? I am just a lot better than the guys I am fighting? It just seems like impressions of competitive modes in this game are so subjective, it's like we're all playing our own version of the game, specific to us. But I'd still be curious to hear some opinions on this condi build that most people don't seem to be complaining about (is it a "sleeper" build?).

That build get
obliterated
by any serious roaming spec minus try hard d/p or s/d thieves which can jump on DE and still rock your world
  • ranger can easily outclean/outsustain if using high CC buld with rock gazelle
  • dh burn can easily burst you down, assuming you're running fire/arcana and not fire/water in which case...you still end up not doing enough dmg in the end to win
  • condi rev can murder you easily
  • shout warrior will laugh at you

No..you can't win fire weaver against competent players used to your spec

Okay, thanks! If I start having trouble, now I know to look for those builds as specific counters to mine. The more you know!

So, what about builds that didn't make the list? Honestly, I like my odds if these 4 builds are the only thing that just hard counters me. But it hardly matters. I'm not some pro streamer that other players chase around running counter builds just to see if they can embarrass me on my twitch stream. Nobody is switching to shout warrior just to beat me and, if they are, I'm thrilled that I played well enough that you felt the need to do that!

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