Roaming // Condi builds forcing us to sacrifice crucial build elements for cleanse uptime

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Widmo.3186 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@Supreme.3164 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:I wouldn’t say it is a must to run a lot of anti-condi because I’ve seen skilled players make do with just a few.

Properly avoiding bigger condi applications is something that most players do not know how to do (myself included). I rely a lot on stacking anti condi Options to out cleanse the conditions instead of avoiding its application.

I used to run 8-9 anti condi options just to keep cleansing because I fail at dodging.I now run almost continuous condi clear because why dodge when you can keep cleansing every couple of seconds.

Given that there are many anti condi tools for those who don’t know how to avoid bigger applications, I would say that condi is not OP.

I’m more worried about the sustain now tbh. Core Necro definitely needs a hit in its signets and the heal in shroud trait. Just bring over the nerfs from PvP and it would be less broke. There is also a Low key Ele build I see someone play that seems to be very sustainy that might need a look at.

I have yet to see a single ele

roaming

in T1 outside me on WSR.....but there are "thousand" of necros from scourge to core necro...from roaming to zerging, this ele build you talk about for being a lowkey build...it's pretty much nonexistent. Even "TOP" ele streamers ( just a couple of them) have stopped doing so in wvw.....

They are skilled players who may be using ele time to time...I give you that, but there is nothing faceroll on ele..nothing on the same level of necro at least and the numbers alone do me justice

Fair enough. I’m not very knowledgeable in ele so I can’t say for sure. I did see one doing very well though, outsustaining even against good players on power soulbeasts. But as you said, that ele might just be an even better player than those he fought.

And just to clarify, I don’t mean ele as in core ele. That good player I saw was using a weaver ?

I solo roam on fire weaver and I still feel very comfortable with it (before and after 2/25), but I almost never see other sword weavers roaming or in PvP. Most weavers I see run dagger and most of those are running LR builds. Core ele is even more rare, but tempests are pretty common (though they usually run with allies and play support).

Here's a video of a renegade and a soulbeast turning me into a pincushion for a couple of minutes until I finally manage to overwhelm and finish them. There was a tempest, too, but he came over and bit off a lot more than he could chew before his friends could save him! Sorry, brother! But you did come over and pick that fight! :)

I wonder what you guys think of this fight? Obviously, if I am winning 1v3 (or 1v2, whatever you wanna call this!), it's unlikely that my opponents are on my level (whatever that is!). But my class knowledge is terrible and I can't say for certain how skilled my opponents are in outnumbered fights. I'm too busy trying to stay alive and counter-pressure! Would you say it's the build that is OP? I am just a lot better than the guys I am fighting? It just seems like impressions of competitive modes in this game are so subjective, it's like we're all playing our own version of the game, specific to us. But I'd still be curious to hear some opinions on this condi build that most people don't seem to be complaining about (is it a "sleeper" build?).

Thats simple, because sword is dead. Dagger MH is meta and there shouldnt be any doubts, Dagger OH is just bad and stupidity of cmc or other balance dev that silently nerfed Updraft aint helping. Sword nerfs on both evades and stability makes it hardly viable, especially for power, you have little passive damage (because they took Primordial Stance) and each CC can be your death. That makes my spec, that I played since the start of PoF till its very end (Feb patch) - sw/d power - dead. Condi (fireweaver) is still available because of condi, which is passive damage and you simply dont care about stuns, damage will still flow. How ironic, ANet killed avatarsword when they were aiming for fireweaver, and fireweaver is still fine.Personally I spit on ele condi builds, can play both core d/d and old avatarsword but only because I perfectly know its limits and when/how to put pressure (high leg player, blahblahblah) so each fight doesnt end as stalemate. Its masochistic, LR Weaver is just better in almost every way and that makes me sad.

Roaming now is boring anyways. The amount of ppl that play bunker/condi builds is just hillarious, we swapped 10k crits for 10 minutes fights, whoever makes more mistakes because of boredom - loses. But in media res of our topic - ele shouldnt have much problems with condis. If you take fire - just use auras, if you take water - just use F2, if you take Weaver - just read traits. Other classes can easily handle condi problem as well, you dont need to sacrifice anything, just swap one or two traits/skills and should be fine. As already said, boring meta.

PS: About the video - lots of mistakes (probably because as you said, low class knowledge) and enemies are one of those backpedaling....sheeps. But at least we can see example of how condi carries ppl ^.^

Well, you aren't salty at all, are you? LoL

Hey, thanks for the critique. I am certainly not playing at your level! It's a shame you had to spend so much time ranting about the things you hate about...so many things? I would have been interested in hearing more about your thoughts on dagger vs. sword. I don't know dagger for weaver yet, but maybe there is something to try next!

[Virdo.1540]

Cleanses are crucial too. Now u have to choose between important and important build elements. It finally stopped with "taking one good, rest is bad"

Condis arent op. They can be easily countered in multiple ways.People are just too lazy to think and adapt

[God.2708]

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

Can't tell if sarcastic or genuine so I'll answer literally - no it isn't. Running lightning is much more fun and does VERY good dps.

Most of this topic is some weird circle jerk that is just a repeat of my very first comment at varying levels of condescension. I'd like to inquire more in-depth as to what exactly you find at fault here. We determined that elementalist has builds capable of handling conditions/condition builds (though un-fun or what have you they may be). And here we have a video with a list of builds. Is the frustration that you cannot play all of these builds vs anyone? If so I'd point to my initial comment and say that's a bit neurotic. Your gnome fart build has an entire 6 cleanses most of which are difficult to access or not conveniently applied. It strikes me as very odd to expect something like that to work against every build when it clearly makes certain sacrifices pretty intentionally. A PvE raider DH can express frustration that they can't perform their PvE rotation on players and do mad DPS, but that wouldn't make their frustration justified.

Looking at all these builds in this specific posted video it feels more like your frustration isn't with conditions per se, but rather with a lack of viable elementalist options to deal with them. I'd agree with this sentiment though this forum seems like the wrong place to express them. Elementalist is generally locked into combining two different traitlines to get manageable condi clears (Usually water + something, though fire + something works now too) which makes trying to use the other traitlines an exercise in frustration in a roaming scene that you are going to encounter condi builds about 50% of the time if not more. Most classes have several solid condi cleanse utilities or heal skills, the elementalist is left with a fantastic heal skill that will never perform unless you have stability which the elementalist has very severe lack of, and a single utility which is... not bad, but really needs water line to be effective, which gives you all the clears you need anyway. So you're left with either combining two traitlines and gimping build creativity, or trying to smash as many cleanses into your runes/sigils which again can gimp build creativity, especially since elementalist only gets two sigils compared to most classes 4.

I... would like to see elementalist changed a bit, the utility flaw has long existed and really shouldn't. I don't think I can label this a problem of condi builds themselves though.

[solemn.9670]

@God.2708 said:

@"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

Can't tell if sarcastic or genuine so I'll answer literally - no it isn't. Running lightning is much more fun and does VERY good dps.

Most of this topic is some weird circle jerk that is just a repeat of my very first comment at varying levels of condescension. I'd like to inquire more in-depth as to what exactly you find at fault here. We determined that elementalist has builds capable of handling conditions/condition builds (though un-fun or what have you they may be). And here we have a video with a list of builds. Is the frustration that you cannot play all of these builds vs anyone? If so I'd point to my initial comment and say that's a bit neurotic. Your gnome fart build has an entire 6 cleanses most of which are difficult to access or not conveniently applied. It strikes me as very odd to expect something like that to work against every build when it clearly makes certain sacrifices pretty intentionally. A PvE raider DH can express frustration that they can't perform their PvE rotation on players and do mad DPS, but that wouldn't make their frustration justified.

Looking at all these builds in this specific posted video it feels more like your frustration isn't with conditions per se, but rather with a lack of viable elementalist options to deal with them. I'd agree with this sentiment though this forum seems like the wrong place to express them. Elementalist is generally locked into combining two different traitlines to get manageable condi clears (Usually water + something, though fire + something works now too) which makes trying to use the other traitlines an exercise in frustration in a roaming scene that you are going to encounter condi builds about 50% of the time if not more. Most classes have several solid condi cleanse utilities or heal skills, the elementalist is left with a fantastic heal skill that will never perform unless you have stability which the elementalist has very severe lack of, and a single utility which is... not bad, but really needs water line to be effective, which gives you all the clears you need anyway. So you're left with either combining two traitlines and gimping build creativity, or trying to smash as many cleanses into your runes/sigils which again can kitten build creativity, especially since elementalist only gets two sigils compared to most classes 4.

I... would like to see elementalist changed a bit, the utility flaw has long existed and really shouldn't. I don't think I can label this a problem of condi builds themselves though.

/threadVery well put. That about summarizes my frustration. Yeah, sorry about this thread, maybe I'm really just complaining about ele. They really should do something about arcane being necessary on nearly every roaming build. Maybe Ele should just get boons from swapping attunements regardless of arcane, I realize that might sound like a buff to an already very formidable class/build(s) but with boons being tied to Arcane traitline it's not usually viable to forgo it. And this makes ele roamers play minor variants of the same couple builds for the most part.