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Raids are not balanced when there is a 9-10k Difference between professions.


Josiah.2967

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@Josiah.2967 said:

It's nice to have benchmarks on my side....

Yes, Benchmarks on a non moving Golem that doesn't hit back is a clear indication of what is meta and what is not

/sarcasm

Don't forget the benchmarks for raid encounters as well. I will assume good intent, and you just haven't looked at the actual encounter benchmarks. Which can make the spread even greater than the golem.

All joking aside, any class works Even Reaper and Scourge will work, you can do raid content with Necro or have some weird comp and still get through raids so long as the group knows what they are doing, the group comps from SC are for the quickest and most efficient way of doing it and I think people look at these and decide that that's all we are allowing into raid groups even though every class can do it.

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@Josiah.2967 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Can someone explain this balance patch:

Ranger
Slash (Bird): Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.38 to 0.25.Chilling Slash (Owl): Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.66 to 0.475.Blinding Slash (Raven): Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.66 to 0.475.

I do not understand this nerf? Were their some secret meta I didn't know about? Meanwhile, guardians remain untouched.

If I'm not wrong this is to nerf them in spvp?!Cause everyon was playing birds and they were considered op.

But yes. I agree. Especially burn firebrand needs to be nerfed in wvw. As well as the immobilize spam (main offenders being ranger, ele, guard)

What immobilise does guard have? That won't be useless anyway? Ele immobilise is fine, 1 sec immobilise from trait is nothing compared to what Guard and Scourge can do with genuine support and damage lul

It's nice to have benchmarks on my side....

The only thing benchmarks do is prove they aren't being used to balance classes in PVE.

@Josiah.2967 said:

It's nice to have benchmarks on my side....

Yes, Benchmarks on a non moving Golem that doesn't hit back is a clear indication of what is meta and what is not

/sarcasm

Don't forget the benchmarks for raid encounters as well. I will assume good intent, and you just haven't looked at the actual encounter benchmarks. Which can make the spread even greater than the golem.

You don't seem to understand that the benchmarks are not representative of the playerbase or indicative of what is needed to succeed in raids. Can you explain how using the SINGLE benchmark point from the top performing players is a sensible way for Anet to balance DPS for all classes in PVE across all the performance range that raids are already designed to accommodate?

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@"Cobrakon.3108" said:The problem is not only dps, but the lack of spike damage in the game. Autos are too powerful. There is still too much time when you get to sit in one spot and do rotations. I would prefer lower boss hp pools but less time to hit the boss.

How is this a "problem", especially in the context of this thread?

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@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

It's nice to have benchmarks on my side....

Yes, Benchmarks on a non moving Golem that doesn't hit back is a clear indication of what is meta and what is not

/sarcasm

Don't forget the benchmarks for raid encounters as well. I will assume good intent, and you just haven't looked at the actual encounter benchmarks. Which can make the spread even greater than the golem.

All joking aside, any class works Even Reaper and Scourge will work, you can do raid content with Necro or have some weird comp and still get through raids so long as the group knows what they are doing, the group comps from SC are for the quickest and most efficient way of doing it and I think people look at these and decide that that's all we are allowing into raid groups even though every class can do it.

I love this! The way you worded it...just shows that the extreme imbalance is no longer in question.

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@Josiah.2967 said:

It's nice to have benchmarks on my side....

Yes, Benchmarks on a non moving Golem that doesn't hit back is a clear indication of what is meta and what is not

/sarcasm

Don't forget the benchmarks for raid encounters as well. I will assume good intent, and you just haven't looked at the actual encounter benchmarks. Which can make the spread even greater than the golem.

All joking aside, any class works Even Reaper and Scourge will work, you can do raid content with Necro or have some weird comp and still get through raids so long as the group knows what they are doing, the group comps from SC are for the quickest and most efficient way of doing it and I think people look at these and decide that that's all we are allowing into raid groups even though every class can do it.

I love this! The way you worded it...just shows that the extreme imbalance is no longer in question.

Yes Weaver isn't top DPS, something is wrong with that

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@Josiah.2967 said:

It's nice to have benchmarks on my side....

Yes, Benchmarks on a non moving Golem that doesn't hit back is a clear indication of what is meta and what is not

/sarcasm

Don't forget the benchmarks for raid encounters as well. I will assume good intent, and you just haven't looked at the actual encounter benchmarks. Which can make the spread even greater than the golem.

All joking aside, any class works Even Reaper and Scourge will work, you can do raid content with Necro or have some weird comp and still get through raids so long as the group knows what they are doing, the group comps from SC are for the quickest and most efficient way of doing it and I think people look at these and decide that that's all we are allowing into raid groups even though every class can do it.

I love this! The way you worded it...just shows that the extreme imbalance is no longer in question.

No one questions it exists. The question is about if Anet needs to do something about it ... they already have on the content side.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Cobrakon.3108" said:The problem is not only dps, but the lack of spike damage in the game. Autos are too powerful. There is still too much time when you get to sit in one spot and do rotations. I would prefer lower boss hp pools but less time to hit the boss.

How is this a "problem", especially in the context of this thread?

The reason it is is a problem is because all classes are able to do a large chunk of their dps whithout having to move around much and the window for damage is large enough at times that any descrepency in dps rotation among the classes will be more obvious. If there were less chances to do full rotations and instead you were relegated to spike damage more often, then differences in theoretical maximums of class dps would matter less as it would take more skill to time your spike damage. So what I believe we need is to have more scenarios with "well placed" damage rather than "stack and rotate". The numbers will start to stagger as to who tops the damage charts making it less class dependent.

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@Cobrakon.3108 said:

@Cobrakon.3108 said:The problem is not only dps, but the lack of spike damage in the game. Autos are too powerful. There is still too much time when you get to sit in one spot and do rotations. I would prefer lower boss hp pools but less time to hit the boss.

How is this a "problem", especially in the context of this thread?

The reason it is is a problem is because all classes are able to do a large chunk of their dps whithout having to move around much and the window for damage is large enough at times that any descrepency in dps rotation among the classes will be more obvious. If there were less chances to do full rotations and instead you were relegated to spike damage more often, then differences in theoretical maximums of class dps would matter less as it would take more skill to time your spike damage. So what I believe we need is to have more scenarios with "well placed" damage rather than "stack and rotate". The numbers will start to stagger as to who tops the damage charts making it less class dependent.

Hold on, this is NOT a problem because of choice for players and the fact that instanced content success has a very low threshold that accommodates these dps differences.

If you want DPS and the freedom to move around, choose a class that gives you that. If you don't think you get that with Necro, then strike it off your list.

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@Cobrakon.3108 said:

@Cobrakon.3108 said:The problem is not only dps, but the lack of spike damage in the game. Autos are too powerful. There is still too much time when you get to sit in one spot and do rotations. I would prefer lower boss hp pools but less time to hit the boss.

How is this a "problem", especially in the context of this thread?

The reason it is is a problem is because all classes are able to do a large chunk of their dps whithout having to move around much and the window for damage is large enough at times that any descrepency in dps rotation among the classes will be more obvious. If there were less chances to do full rotations and instead you were relegated to spike damage more often, then differences in theoretical maximums of class dps would matter less as it would take more skill to time your spike damage. So what I believe we need is to have more scenarios with "well placed" damage rather than "stack and rotate". The numbers will start to stagger as to who tops the damage charts making it less class dependent.

Oh, so you have the short dps meter somewhere, can I see the results and builds?Otherwise, not sure why you're writing what you're writing.

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@Cobrakon.3108 said:

@Cobrakon.3108 said:The problem is not only dps, but the lack of spike damage in the game. Autos are too powerful. There is still too much time when you get to sit in one spot and do rotations. I would prefer lower boss hp pools but less time to hit the boss.

How is this a "problem", especially in the context of this thread?

The reason it is is a problem is because all classes are able to do a large chunk of their dps whithout having to move around much and the window for damage is large enough at times that any descrepency in dps rotation among the classes will be more obvious. If there were less chances to do full rotations and instead you were relegated to spike damage more often, then differences in theoretical maximums of class dps would matter less as it would take more skill to time your spike damage. So what I believe we need is to have more scenarios with "well placed" damage rather than "stack and rotate". The numbers will start to stagger as to who tops the damage charts making it less class dependent.

@Cobrakon.3108 said:The problem is not only dps, but the lack of spike damage in the game. Autos are too powerful. There is still too much time when you get to sit in one spot and do rotations. I would prefer lower boss hp pools but less time to hit the boss.

How is this a "problem", especially in the context of this thread?

The reason it is is a problem is because all classes are able to do a large chunk of their dps whithout having to move around much and the window for damage is large enough at times that any descrepency in dps rotation among the classes will be more obvious. If there were less chances to do full rotations and instead you were relegated to spike damage more often, then differences in theoretical maximums of class dps would matter less as it would take more skill to time your spike damage. So what I believe we need is to have more scenarios with "well placed" damage rather than "stack and rotate". The numbers will start to stagger as to who tops the damage charts making it less class dependent.

Oh, so you have the short dps meter somewhere, can I see the results and builds?Otherwise, not sure why you're writing what you're writing.

If power damage is made to ramp up at same speed as most condis, that'd essentially make condi a superior choice as both would take as long to ramp-up but condis would keep ticking while power would hit a wall the moment it gets interrupted.And Arcdps already logs momentary dps and parsers show the exact 10s average dps curve. > @Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Can someone explain this balance patch:

Ranger
Slash (Bird): Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.38 to 0.25.Chilling Slash (Owl): Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.66 to 0.475.Blinding Slash (Raven): Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.66 to 0.475.

I do not understand this nerf? Were their some secret meta I didn't know about? Meanwhile, guardians remain untouched.

If I'm not wrong this is to nerf them in spvp?!Cause everyon was playing birds and they were considered op.

But yes. I agree. Especially burn firebrand needs to be nerfed in wvw. As well as the immobilize spam (main offenders being ranger, ele, guard)

What immobilise does guard have? That won't be useless anyway? Ele immobilise is fine, 1 sec immobilise from trait is nothing compared to what Guard and Scourge can do with genuine support and damage lul

It's nice to have benchmarks on my side....

The only thing benchmarks do is prove they aren't being used to balance classes in PVE.

It's nice to have benchmarks on my side....

Yes, Benchmarks on a non moving Golem that doesn't hit back is a clear indication of what is meta and what is not

/sarcasm

Don't forget the benchmarks for raid encounters as well. I will assume good intent, and you just haven't looked at the actual encounter benchmarks. Which can make the spread even greater than the golem.

You don't seem to understand that the benchmarks are not representative of the playerbase or indicative of what is needed to succeed in raids. Can you explain how using the SINGLE benchmark point from the top performing players is a sensible way for Anet to balance DPS for all classes in PVE across all the performance range that raids are already designed to accommodate?

You're ignoring the fact that nobody does 100% benchmark dps in actual situation at most bosses, but there are some bosses where it's doable. But the thing about benchmarks is: how much of the build's potential dps you need to do for successful boss kill. For ex. if every dps needed to do avg. 14k boss dps during burns to succeed (VG is around that), Reaper would need to do 50% of max. potential, scourge 55% of max. potential and chrono 35% of max. potential. Doesn't sound big? In no green strat, which people mostly do atm, reaper get popped out of shroud if green pops and can get locked in axe which means byebye dps. To make it even worse, reaper's dps is backloaded and VG infamously gets a lot more difficult to dps on in last 33%. Thus reapers may need to play at 70% of max potential just to get the kill while power chronos get away with half of that.And that's why it's currently relatively a LOT easier to kill bosses than pre-PoF as people have a lot more margin of error due to power creep...on the classes that have crept. Necro currently does less than top pre-PoF dpsers.

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@LadyKitty.6120 said:You're ignoring the fact that nobody does 100% benchmark dps in actual situation at most bosses, but there are some bosses where it's doable. But the thing about benchmarks is: how much of the build's potential dps you need to do for successful boss kill. For ex. if every dps needed to do avg. 14k boss dps during burns to succeed (VG is around that), Reaper would need to do 50% of max. potential, scourge 55% of max. potential and chrono 35% of max. potential. Doesn't sound big? In no green strat, which people mostly do atm, reaper get popped out of shroud if green pops and can get locked in axe which means byebye dps. To make it even worse, reaper's dps is backloaded and VG infamously gets a lot more difficult to dps on in last 33%. Thus reapers may need to play at 70% of max potential just to get the kill while power chronos get away with half of that.And that's why it's currently relatively a LOT easier to kill bosses than pre-PoF as people have a lot more margin of error due to power creep...on the classes that have crept. Necro currently does less than top pre-PoF dpsers.

It's irrelevant if it's doable because it's not necessary for an individual to reach the benchmark to be successful in endgame content.

Also, the thing about benchmarks is NOT about how much of the builds potential DPS you need to kill a boss because that potential is irrelevant to killing a boss for two reasons:

  1. The aggregate team DPS is what is relevant to succeed
  2. The success threshold for endgame content is low that these DPS gaps still enable people to play how they want and be successful, as demonstrated by the fact that highly-capable players are short-manning raids.

    Benchmarks are COMPLETELY misused in almost every regard when talking about raids and class potential. It's ridiculous.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:You're ignoring the fact that nobody does 100% benchmark dps in actual situation at most bosses, but there are some bosses where it's doable. But the thing about benchmarks is: how much of the build's potential dps you need to do for successful boss kill. For ex. if every dps needed to do avg. 14k boss dps during burns to succeed (VG is around that), Reaper would need to do 50% of max. potential, scourge 55% of max. potential and chrono 35% of max. potential. Doesn't sound big? In no green strat, which people mostly do atm, reaper get popped out of shroud if green pops and can get locked in axe which means byebye dps. To make it even worse, reaper's dps is backloaded and VG infamously gets a lot more difficult to dps on in last 33%. Thus reapers may need to play at 70% of max potential just to get the kill while power chronos get away with half of that.And that's why it's currently relatively a LOT easier to kill bosses than pre-PoF as people have a lot more margin of error due to power creep...on the classes that have crept. Necro currently does less than top pre-PoF dpsers.

It's irrelevant if it's doable because it's not necessary to reach the benchmark to be successful in raids.

Also, the thing about benchmarks is NOT about how much of the builds potential DPS you need to kill a boss because individual class DPS is irrelevant to killing a boss. The aggregate team DPS is what is relevant to that. Benchmarks are COMPLETELY misused in almost every regard when talking about raids and class potential. It's ridiculous.

Now imagine a team with 6 dpsers: team of reapers and team of power chronos. The dps requirement during burns is that 14k and power chronos need to do 35% of benchmark and power reapers needs to do 70% of their benchmark by average to succeed. The players are good enough to do 60% of benchmark on power reaper and 40% of benchmark on power chronos.Which team has higher chance of success killing the boss? Now please tell Kitty about the (ir)relevance.

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@LadyKitty.6120 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:You're ignoring the fact that nobody does 100% benchmark dps in actual situation at most bosses, but there are some bosses where it's doable. But the thing about benchmarks is: how much of the build's potential dps you need to do for successful boss kill. For ex. if every dps needed to do avg. 14k boss dps during burns to succeed (VG is around that), Reaper would need to do 50% of max. potential, scourge 55% of max. potential and chrono 35% of max. potential. Doesn't sound big? In no green strat, which people mostly do atm, reaper get popped out of shroud if green pops and can get locked in axe which means byebye dps. To make it even worse, reaper's dps is backloaded and VG infamously gets a lot more difficult to dps on in last 33%. Thus reapers may need to play at 70% of max potential just to get the kill while power chronos get away with half of that.And that's why it's currently relatively a LOT easier to kill bosses than pre-PoF as people have a lot more margin of error due to power creep...on the classes that have crept. Necro currently does less than top pre-PoF dpsers.

It's irrelevant if it's doable because it's not necessary to reach the benchmark to be successful in raids.

Also, the thing about benchmarks is NOT about how much of the builds potential DPS you need to kill a boss because individual class DPS is irrelevant to killing a boss. The aggregate team DPS is what is relevant to that. Benchmarks are COMPLETELY misused in almost every regard when talking about raids and class potential. It's ridiculous.

Now imagine a team with 6 dpsers: team of reapers and team of power chronos. The dps requirement during burns is that 14k and power chronos need to do 35% of benchmark and power reapers needs to do 70% of their benchmark by average to succeed. The players are good enough to do 60% of benchmark on power reaper and 40% of benchmark on power chronos.Which team has higher chance of success killing the boss? Now please tell Kitty about the (ir)relevance.

So are you trying to tell me that Anet should be balancing INDIVIDUAL class potential based on the huge number of imaginable combinations of team configurations and their chances for success? That seems to me like a completely insurmountable and impractical approach wouldn't you agree? If you just want to maximize chance, NOTHING prevents you from making choices to do so. Anet does NOT need to accommodate you if that's how you decide to play.

You can image anything you want, but let's be completely honest here. These are two facts that NO one can dispute:

  1. The aggregate team DPS is what is relevant to succeed
  2. The success threshold for endgame content is low that these DPS gaps still enable people to team together, play how they want and be successful, as demonstrated by the fact that highly-capable players are short-manning raids.

These two things result in Anet NOT needing to unnecessarily balance DPS. There is NO mechanic in the game that prevents classes of disproportionate DPS who team to fail because of the class DPS disparities.

The day that Anet introduces a failure mechanic for INDIVIDUAL DPS for instanced group content ... then you got a gripe about these gaps in DPS. Until then, play how you want and team with people that do the same ... and you won't have a problem ... EVER.

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@LadyKitty.6120 said:If power damage is made to ramp up at same speed as most condis, that'd essentially make condi a superior choice as both would take as long to ramp-up but condis would keep ticking while power would hit a wall the moment it gets interrupted.

Thats not how Condi DPS works. If you stop attacking on a Condi class, your DPS will be lower. You wont hit 0 DPS like power builds would, but you have to rampup again. Having to stop attacking is just as bad for condi as it is for power.

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@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:If power damage is made to ramp up at same speed as most condis, that'd essentially make condi a superior choice as both would take as long to ramp-up but condis would keep ticking while power would hit a wall the moment it gets interrupted.

Thats not how Condi DPS works. If you stop attacking on a Condi class, your DPS will be lower. You wont hit 0 DPS like power builds would, but you have to rampup again. Having to stop attacking is just as bad for condi as it is for power.

Another thing to note is that Condi builds don't really have ramp up. Which is one of the reasons why it's so popular in PvP, a game mode that focuses heavily on bursting down players.

There are lots of Condi builds these days that can easily and quickly apply 20+ stacks of Condi's in a burst. Then their sustained damage is auto attacks that apply some weak Condi's but can also proc Condi's on crits (Earth Sigils, minor traits that apply Bleed on crit etc)

Meaning that in reality, Condi and Power builds already play similarly. Both are reliant on their skill CD rotations to apply the majority of their damage. Both lose similar DPS from lost uptime (The main difference is that any DPS tracking systems will note a Power builds DPS drop immediately, while a Condi's DPS drop will only really be noticed after the time that their auto attack applied condi's would have lasted, passes)

Since, it's not as if Condi builds need to slowly get up to high stacks of Condi's and then maintain that high stack by refreshing their duration, which would be a cause of ramp up in damage. It's simply a matter of using skills that apply many Condi's to get high stacks and re-using those skills as they come off CD meaning that the stack size doesn't really matter as ultimately it comes down to X skill does Y damage per usage just like a Power build. The only difference is Y happens over a period of time (Which doesn't matter in boss fights that last long enough for the Condi's to run their full duration, with minor damage losses towards the end of a fight)

Any perceived "Ramp Up" is just DPS tracking noticing the time taken for the first few skills to deal their full damage, which is irrelevant outside of times where target switching is required (Such as fighting trash mobs in Fractals)

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@"Taril.8619" said:Another thing to note is that Condi builds don't really have ramp up. Which is one of the reasons why it's so popular in PvP, a game mode that focuses heavily on bursting down players.

There are lots of Condi builds these days that can easily and quickly apply 20+ stacks of Condi's in a burst. Then their sustained damage is auto attacks that apply some weak Condi's but can also proc Condi's on crits (Earth Sigils, minor traits that apply Bleed on crit etc)

Meaning that in reality, Condi and Power builds already play similarly. Both are reliant on their skill CD rotations to apply the majority of their damage. Both lose similar DPS from lost uptime (The main difference is that any DPS tracking systems will note a Power builds DPS drop immediately, while a Condi's DPS drop will only really be noticed after the time that their auto attack applied condi's would have lasted, passes)

Since, it's not as if Condi builds need to slowly get up to high stacks of Condi's and then maintain that high stack by refreshing their duration, which would be a cause of ramp up in damage. It's simply a matter of using skills that apply many Condi's to get high stacks and re-using those skills as they come off CD meaning that the stack size doesn't really matter as ultimately it comes down to X skill does Y damage per usage just like a Power build. The only difference is Y happens over a period of time (Which doesn't matter in boss fights that last long enough for the Condi's to run their full duration, with minor damage losses towards the end of a fight)

Any perceived "Ramp Up" is just DPS tracking noticing the time taken for the first few skills to deal their full damage, which is irrelevant outside of times where target switching is required (Such as fighting trash mobs in Fractals)

I dont agree with you entirely. Classes like Firebrand dont really have a rampup due to the nature of burning. Short duration, high damage.That is different for Renegade though. Renegade needs some time to get to its full damage potential.

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@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@"Taril.8619" said:Another thing to note is that Condi builds don't really have ramp up. Which is one of the reasons why it's so popular in PvP, a game mode that focuses heavily on bursting down players.

There are lots of Condi builds these days that can easily and quickly apply 20+ stacks of Condi's in a burst. Then their sustained damage is auto attacks that apply some weak Condi's but can also proc Condi's on crits (Earth Sigils, minor traits that apply Bleed on crit etc)

Meaning that in reality, Condi and Power builds already play similarly. Both are reliant on their skill CD rotations to apply the majority of their damage. Both lose similar DPS from lost uptime (The main difference is that any DPS tracking systems will note a Power builds DPS drop immediately, while a Condi's DPS drop will only really be noticed after the time that their auto attack applied condi's would have lasted, passes)

Since, it's not as if Condi builds need to slowly get up to high stacks of Condi's and then maintain that high stack by refreshing their duration, which would be a cause of ramp up in damage. It's simply a matter of using skills that apply many Condi's to get high stacks and re-using those skills as they come off CD meaning that the stack size doesn't really matter as ultimately it comes down to X skill does Y damage per usage just like a Power build. The only difference is Y happens over a period of time (Which doesn't matter in boss fights that last long enough for the Condi's to run their full duration, with minor damage losses towards the end of a fight)

Any perceived "Ramp Up" is just DPS tracking noticing the time taken for the first few skills to deal their full damage, which is irrelevant outside of times where target switching is required (Such as fighting trash mobs in Fractals)

I dont agree with you entirely. Classes like Firebrand dont really have a rampup due to the nature of burning. Short duration, high damage.That is different for Renegade though. Renegade needs some time to get to its full damage potential.

Not really, especially with how quickly Renegade can burst out plenty of Torment stacks with ease. Even more so when you consider Citadel Bombardment and Searing Fissure for bunches of short duration burns.

Not to mention my whole point about how "Ramp Up" is percieved and not actual. I.e. Hitting someone with Temporal Rift is 4 stacks of 12s Torment worth of damage upon the skills usage. The fact that it'll take 12 second for the full damage to be applied isn't really "Ramp Up" and is inconsequential towards DPS against bosses.

Again, if Condi's actually had ramp up, it'd take them time before they actually started dealing damage with attacks and it would not be so favourable in PvP due to the game mode relying heavily on bursting people down quickly (As well as having lots of Condi Cleanse to mitigate Condi durations) - Even more so it's notable that Condi Herald is one of the strongest PvP builds due to Rev's natural ability to dump a truckload of Torment stacks onto someone to burst them down. It's also worth noting that for this, Viper stats are not used so PvP Condi builds don't also have a ton of Power and Precision to enhance the damage of the initial Condi applying attacks.

I.e. "Ramp Up" would be needing to stack your Torment up to 20 before your attacks dealt full damage (By refreshing the 20 stacks of Torment or otherwise dealing bonus damage), it's not really the need to wait a few seconds for your skill that you've already used to finish dealing damage (Otherwise you can call things like Power Weaver as needing "Ramp Up" as their burning stacks tick over.

Against bosses, the duration of Conditions to deal their full damage only really affects DPS towards the end, as the boss dying will clip the end off remaining Conditions and thus reduce the overall damage of several skills.

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@"Taril.8619" said:Not really, especially with how quickly Renegade can burst out plenty of Torment stacks with ease. Even more so when you consider Citadel Bombardment and Searing Fissure for bunches of short duration burns.

Not to mention my whole point about how "Ramp Up" is percieved and not actual. I.e. Hitting someone with Temporal Rift is 4 stacks of 12s Torment worth of damage upon the skills usage. The fact that it'll take 12 second for the full damage to be applied isn't really "Ramp Up" and is inconsequential towards DPS against bosses.

Again, if Condi's actually had ramp up, it'd take them time before they actually started dealing damage with attacks and it would not be so favourable in PvP due to the game mode relying heavily on bursting people down quickly (As well as having lots of Condi Cleanse to mitigate Condi durations) - Even more so it's notable that Condi Herald is one of the strongest PvP builds due to Rev's natural ability to dump a truckload of Torment stacks onto someone to burst them down. It's also worth noting that for this, Viper stats are not used so PvP Condi builds don't also have a ton of Power and Precision to enhance the damage of the initial Condi applying attacks.

I.e. "Ramp Up" would be needing to stack your Torment up to 20 before your attacks dealt full damage (By refreshing the 20 stacks of Torment or otherwise dealing bonus damage), it's not really the need to wait a few seconds for your skill that you've already used to finish dealing damage (Otherwise you can call things like Power Weaver as needing "Ramp Up" as their burning stacks tick over.

Against bosses, the duration of Conditions to deal their full damage only really affects DPS towards the end, as the boss dying will clip the end off remaining Conditions and thus reduce the overall damage of several skills.

You are right, that you dont ramp up the damage of a single skill. You do however ramp up your overall DPS. Renegades needs ~20seconds to reach 34k and another ~15seconds to reach 36k. That is a huge rampup of damage.

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@noiwk.2760 said:

@noiwk.2760 said:is there even anything balanced in the game right now? PVP WVW doesnt seem any more balanced than the were before the "balance patch" only abit worse if anything i still wait to see the fix on FB and necro and some others.

but when it comes to PVE its really is awful.. some classes are worth playing some just not.. some support classes (berzeker banner) can do more dps than a full dps classes? or support FB.. why would anyone play any other support when all you need is FB?and thats true for both raids and also fractals.. the gap between classes is far too big.. for both support and for dps. also the meta of build full zeker and everyone does damage is abit meh? mesmer tank build full damage aside for 1 gear with some toughness and supports trying to build around damage.. and only offensive boons counts.. so only FB is really good choice.. the game need a large and massage balance and thats true for PVE content aswell.. condi builds sucking bad at fractals is also not much fun..

Some harder bosses are tanked in minstrel to reduce risk of wiping. defensive boons count. prot and resistance are covered when needed.Regarding fractals, cfb is still op in most fractals. its just not that strong in 99 and 100.

thing is.. that protection you also get from FB.. FB is the ultimate support. and regardless of how good Scourge can be.. due to lack of boons offensive boons he just cant replace FB as main support. and thats the issue of PVE.. you have classes that are 100% better no matter how you look at it.. its same with dps classes.. i play spell breaker right now.. its dps is trash compared to some others.. gurdian is just stupid strong in pve.. the balance right now is just bad..

Maybe part of the problem is that you are playing spellbreaker as a dps....How I see it, the elite specs get seperated in 3 different types: dps, bruiser, support

Every class has 2 of these roles available through elite specs so far.Engineer has dps (holosmith) and bruiser (scrapper)Necromancer has dps (reaper) and support (scourge)Guardian has dps (dragonhunter) and support (firebrand)Thief has dps (deadeye) and bruiser (daredevil)Warrior has dps (berserker) and bruiser (spellbreaker)

How I see it, spellbreakers are not supposed to have the same dps as dps elite specs. They are built around boon removal, lockdown and some defensive mechanics (like full counter).You won't see someone complain that scrapper can't dps competitively. Because they are not supposed to, they are a bruiser spec, supposed to add more survivability to the class. If you are looking for dps, then you should take the holosmith.Same for warrior. If you want dps, you should probably use berserker.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:You're ignoring the fact that nobody does 100% benchmark dps in actual situation at most bosses, but there are some bosses where it's doable. But the thing about benchmarks is: how much of the build's potential dps you need to do for successful boss kill. For ex. if every dps needed to do avg. 14k boss dps during burns to succeed (VG is around that), Reaper would need to do 50% of max. potential, scourge 55% of max. potential and chrono 35% of max. potential. Doesn't sound big? In no green strat, which people mostly do atm, reaper get popped out of shroud if green pops and can get locked in axe which means byebye dps. To make it even worse, reaper's dps is backloaded and VG infamously gets a lot more difficult to dps on in last 33%. Thus reapers may need to play at 70% of max potential just to get the kill while power chronos get away with half of that.And that's why it's currently relatively a LOT easier to kill bosses than pre-PoF as people have a lot more margin of error due to power creep...on the classes that have crept. Necro currently does less than top pre-PoF dpsers.

It's irrelevant if it's doable because it's not necessary for an individual to reach the benchmark to be successful in endgame content.

Also, the thing about benchmarks is NOT about how much of the builds potential DPS you need to kill a boss because that potential is irrelevant to killing a boss for two reasons:

So you would always carry one person? Can I join your raid group. Then I gg at the beginning of every fight, go do something else while you kill the boss for me? Because it's only relevant that the party reaches the goal right?

  1. The aggregate team DPS is what is relevant to succeed
  2. The success threshold for endgame content is low that these DPS gaps still enable people to play how they want and be successful, as demonstrated by the fact that highly-capable players are short-manning raids.

    Benchmarks are COMPLETELY misused in almost every regard when talking about raids and class potential. It's ridiculous.

While I agree that benchmarks are SOMETIMES misused. They show some potential.Wanna talk about them?While scourges (single target)dps potential is at maybe 28,5k on the golem.Scourge has it much harder in a real fight. Especially when bosses start moving. That might be the case for lot of classes, but not for all of them.So let's go on. Talk about cc.If a scourge has to bring cc, you will see either: extra warhorn in offhand (dps loss), holding back certain skills (dps loss), taking different skills for more cc (golem, spectral grasp -> dps loss)That's also the case for other classes but there are some exceptions, for example guard, or in particular dragonhunter. You need cc? just trait the signets and it's even a dps increase for the group.

Then we could talk about cleave dps. While necro was for a short time the cleave king, when people discovered epi bounce, it's now only second to third place:

Talking about firebrand as condi cleaver and Holo as power cleaver:Condi firebrand: lots of burning damage that kinda ignores the condi dmg drawback, which is slow ramp up time. Has more cleave damage than a condi scourge with epidemic.And even gets it's most damaging spell resetted on some fights (f1).While also being a lot higher in single target dps. Being able to bring group aegis, being able to bring group stability, being able to amplify incoming healing.And you can even bring group quickness without loosing too much dps.Pretty fair design i'd say.

And together with firebrand on top of the cleave table is definitely holosmith.

So let's get to something you love so much:Flavour of the class.

Shall we talk about reaper?

Here's the release notes:"An inexorable force on the battlefield, the reaper empowers itself enough to wield a cleaving greatsword to harvest it's goes. Slow and hard-hitting, these deadly combatants call out the impending doom of their enemies with piercing shouts. Upon Accumulating sufficient lifeforce, they can enter the reaper's shroud, a deadly form that grants them a scythe of malevolent energy and the abilities to match it. Capable of heavily inflicting their victims with chill and other conditions, the reaper Wade's into melee receiving and dealing blows knowing that nothing can save it's foes"

Should we look at what's true and what not?"Wield a cleaving greatsword" - well technically it cleaves, but only 3 enemies, talking about the auto attack. "Normal cleave" would be 5 targets

"Slow and hard hitting" slow yes. Reaper has maybe the slowest animations in whole game, and also moves slowly. "Hard hitting"? Definetly not. Other classes deal way more damage. So it's only hard hitting for a necromancer, but as soon as you compare it to other classes...

"Deadly combatants" eh,... Should be dead punching bags if you look at pvp modes

"Capable of heavily inflicting their victims with chill and other conditions" first of heavily inflicting chill would mean to me, that you don't have to invest much to get a 100% chill uptime, which isn't really possible, only if you just auto attack with gs the whole time. Second: what other conditions? Sure you can take certain traits but they aren't really good with reaper and also they are from the core class.

"The reaper wades into melee, receiving and dealing blows knowing that nothing can safe it's foes" especially with pvp modes in mind that's not really the case. It should be "the reaper tries to Wade into melee" cause easiest way to counter any necro is kiting. "Receiving [...] Blows" yes definetly. But "dealing [...] Blows" only if you can actually catch your target.And the last part "knowing that nothing can safe it's foes" can only be a pun because of the shout, cause there's actually a lot that can safe your enemies.

Maybe they just forgot to add "but reapers are not capable of doing anything alone in pvp modes"

Not to mention that executioner's Scythe (reaper shroud 5) does not do what the actual name says, cause it's not dealing any damage in pvp modes anymore (I know that there has been a discussion quite some time ago to give back damage to certain cc-skills, but nothing happened till now"

So even you say that they balance not on performance but on class flavour and design, anet is doing a bad job with reaper then in my opinion.

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@"Nimon.7840" said:

When looking at flavour, it might not make much sense.But considering gameplay, it does.

Necromancer is inherently tanky thanks to the class mechanic which enhances the HP pool of the class.If you want reaper to become a top dps class, then it needs another and more drastic rework. Instead of increasing the depletion of life force while using reaper's shroud, it would need the "life force = HP" mechanic removed entirely.

Basically it would have to function like the photonforge of the holosmith, it changes your weapon skills to a new set for a limited time (as long as you have life force). But such a rework would open up a new can of worms with other stuff that would need changes, too. Like Unholy Sanctuary, if life force is not replacing your health anymore, then this trait doesn't make sense.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@"Nimon.7840" said:

When looking at flavour, it might not make much sense.But considering gameplay, it does.

Necromancer is inherently tanky thanks to the class mechanic which enhances the HP pool of the class.If you want reaper to become a top dps class, then it needs another and more drastic rework. Instead of increasing the depletion of life force while using reaper's shroud, it would need the "life force = HP" mechanic removed entirely.

What makes you think so? Open world pve?You know that there's mechanics in raids that do %health damage right?

Take vg and horse with a good group, what do you think is easier to play there with reasonable dps:Condi firebrand or scourge?Dragonhunter or reaper?

Yeah you right, both points go to the guard professions!While you can play both guard professions on both encounters and both do very good at both encounters, necro's specs don't do that well.

VG: both dh and firebrand really strong due to good burst.Scourge lackluster because of insanely long rampup time. And reaper also not that good because of greens exploding, which often leads to you sitting one axe/warhorn set and basically drops your dps to basically nothing.So it's already much easier to play guard there, cause you don't have to care for boss mechanics, you can just "braindead" do your damage rotation. While a reaper actually has to think about, what he does. Oh and btw. Delaying shroud is also a pretty big dps loss.

Then gorse:Again, both guard specs can be played due to good burst damage. And guards even bring blocks to the group so you don't have to dodge the knockback, and it's not even a damage loss for them.Also they can freely ignore the retaliation phase by just using their heal skill and keep doing "braindead" their dps rotation.Once again, necro is at a disadvantage. You should never ever plan to play scourge there. While epibounce still works, the rampup time is really low once again. Also reaper is lackluster because, you cannot ignore the mechanics.You have to dodge the knockbacks, unless you are somehow really good and manage to have reapers shroud 3 up every time gorse does this attack.Then you cannot braindead do your dps rotation especially in the retaliation phase due to reaper shroud getting substantial damaged and as a result you loosing a lot of dps.

And that's the case for a lot of bosses.

So you tell me, that classes that have it easier to do damage are allowed to do a lot more dps because they have a little bit less health?If the health is really an issue u should definetly get a better healer (oh and btw, that doesn't work for reaper, because it cannot be healed in shroud and also you cannot give reaper lifeforce from healing him).

And don't even try to argue with open world performance.An open world player wouldn't even notice, if reaper was doing 5k more dps with perfekt buffs. Cause they never have perfect buffs.

Sorry but it's just stupid to come up with the "high health" excuse.

Basically it would have to function like the photonforge of the holosmith, it changes your weapon skills to a new set for a limited time (as long as you have life force). But such a rework would open up a new can of worms with other stuff that would need changes, too. Like Unholy Sanctuary, if life force is not replacing your health anymore, then this trait doesn't make sense.

Yeah. Really good idea. Would also need to give a lot more sustain (blocks, evades, healing, invulnerability,...) To necro if you did this. (Btw. I really wouldnt mind, if reapers shroud acted like holoforge. I mean, no more being locked out of utility skills. I even suggested that myself)

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@LadyKitty.6120 said:You're ignoring the fact that nobody does 100% benchmark dps in actual situation at most bosses, but there are some bosses where it's doable. But the thing about benchmarks is: how much of the build's potential dps you need to do for successful boss kill. For ex. if every dps needed to do avg. 14k boss dps during burns to succeed (VG is around that), Reaper would need to do 50% of max. potential, scourge 55% of max. potential and chrono 35% of max. potential. Doesn't sound big? In no green strat, which people mostly do atm, reaper get popped out of shroud if green pops and can get locked in axe which means byebye dps. To make it even worse, reaper's dps is backloaded and VG infamously gets a lot more difficult to dps on in last 33%. Thus reapers may need to play at 70% of max potential just to get the kill while power chronos get away with half of that.And that's why it's currently relatively a LOT easier to kill bosses than pre-PoF as people have a lot more margin of error due to power creep...on the classes that have crept. Necro currently does less than top pre-PoF dpsers.

It's irrelevant if it's doable because it's not necessary for an individual to reach the benchmark to be successful in endgame content.

Also, the thing about benchmarks is NOT about how much of the builds potential DPS you need to kill a boss because that potential is irrelevant to killing a boss for two reasons:

So you would always carry one person? Can I join your raid group. Then I gg at the beginning of every fight, go do something else while you kill the boss for me? Because it's only relevant that the party reaches the goal right?

Nothing I said should give you the impression people shouldn't be expected to participate as part of a team and that expectation in no way contradicts my point either. Your question is disingenuous.

But to be fair to your question ... if my group can 9 man a raid ... why would we bother to team if you if you are just going to AFK and not be an active participant? We get nothing from taking you in and the risk to us to complete the raid is the same ... So ... I guess your question is ridiculous as well.

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@Kodama.6453 said:If you want reaper to become a top dps class, then it needs another and more drastic rework. Instead of increasing the depletion of life force while using reaper's shroud, it would need the "life force = HP" mechanic removed entirely.

To be honest, I've suggested that Reaper gets 2 Shroud skills.

F1 being Reaper's Shroud which replaces your weapon skills and drains lifeforce over time.F2 being Dread Shroud which doesn't affect your skills but causes your lifeforce to replace your health.

So that 1) The Offensive and Defensive properties of Shroud are separated allowing for Reaper to be justifiably given higher damage potential as it won't be gaining a bunch of extra life while accessing its high damage.

But also 2) It provides a bigger shift in class mechanics away from Core Shroud so it doesn't just feel like "Core Shroud 2.0" with literally the same mechanics.

With minor effect of 3) Core Shroud could then be tweaked so that Core builds can work alongside E-Specs due to having a Shroud that provides both offense and defense.

@Kodama.6453 said:But such a rework would open up a new can of worms with other stuff that would need changes, too. Like Unholy Sanctuary, if life force is not replacing your health anymore, then this trait doesn't make sense.

Well... Technically, Scourge can also take Unholy Sanctuary and Desert Shroud doesn't replace health. It gives some Barrier, sure, but it's not quite the same as entering Shroud...

Of course, with my above suggestion of having 2 Shrouds, Reaper could simply end up in Dread Shroud.

Alternatively, they can simply stick some Barrier onto entering Reaper's Shroud after removing the LF replacing health which would make it function with all the traits equally to Scourge, which would be the simplest option.

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