i think D/D thief needs a buff.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:snip

I mean yu could argue the same thing for literally every single sort of change over the years.Just because the original Dagger Training 8 years ago increased its damage, doesn't mean it was always meant to be Power focused.

The fact that only 2 of its skills even had any conditions, and both of them were poor (poison used to not even stack), while the build had many powerful power damage tools and multiple traits that focused on buffing up its power damage and 0 that improved its condition damage does however mean that.

After the change to make Dagger attacks apply poison in 2015, it kept the same main effect for over 4 years before finally being changed last year to no longer apply Poison on hit.

Yup. It did keep that effect for a long time, mostly because it was just kinda useless, and not worth bothering with. It occupied the same niche as the trap trait, as a trait that sucks and noone uses it, but they cant be bothered to fix it.

I'll say that there might have been plans to make Dagger a hybrid weapon because for the longest time, this trait existed in this particular format, while adding or changing up benefits to Power damage alongside.

If there were plans for that, they wouldve made the only condition skill worth using also do decent power damage. Otherwise, its not a "hybrid" build, its just a pure condi build that ignores 3/5 skills. Even ignored autoattacks for the most part.

And to be fair, Viper/Grieving DD builds did work (for PvE) during this span of time where Dagger Training applied Poison, so yu can't exactly deny that Dagger wasn't used somewhat as a Hybrid weapon.

It was used as a pure condi weapon when that trait existed (And not particularly successfully). For a hybrid build it would have to do noticable power damage. It didnt.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@Pomdepin.7068 said:D/D problem to me is that its #3 has absolutely 0 synergy with the rest of the kit. D/D is meant to be played with power stats. #3 leans towards condi. On top of that, D/D kit has 0 gapcloser and smallest range of all thief weapons.

Nay.D/D is obviously meant for a Hybrid styled build which pushes both Condi and Power.

This was why old Dagger Mastery made all Dagger attacks, no matter which skill, have a chance to apply Poison as well as give +Power for each Dagger wielded.

It makes alot of sense for it to be a Hybrid sort of weapon too, since Dagger auto chain and Dagger 4 already applied pretty darn good Conditions, and Dagger autos were really really good with old Dagger Mastery even on a pure Condi build.

I actually played a version of this, with Grieving - Marauder stats in WvW.Was a Hybrid D/D Daredevil which just Swipes in with Backstab and auto a dude a whole bunch then back off while spamming Dagger 4 and watch people kill themselves from Torment + Poison.

Dagger skills largely have not changed conceptually since before they added the +Condition damage stat to gear.Yes, there was a point when condi was not even an available stat.

The kit was balanced around power. HS, CnD and DB were extremely powerful skills near launch (free mobility + big damage on HS for cheap - abusing old CS crit inititative refunding or old BP+HS SA refunding), because the thief also had the bonus of being the only class in the game with a movespeed signet, instant swiftness or even a permanent uptime on either to take advantage of in-and-out stealth, and the CS line used to refund initiative on crit and SA initiative upon gaining stealth (+2 instantly). DB was a low-cooldown/spammed evade/defense, which was strictly not something that existed anywhere else in the game, and back then, the skills were easier to read and react to. Hammer Warrior was meta in top-end PvP. And compared to HS, only Ele (LTR+Fire dash) and War (Rush) could keep up back then.

D/D needs major help because even for its hybrid options, it still sucks at both combined and sucks at both independently, and also because the kit is just dated, with most of its synergy in very exploitative traits (which used to have better synergies with other kits) having been removed due to the abuse on other weapon sets. Mostly just because the skills have zero cohesion, which is something that every modernized kit has, rather than being a bit of a jumble like how a lot of kits were early on. Notice how D/D ele, S/S or Hambow war, A/T ranger, etc. all suck today.

[Roche.7491]

@Pomdepin.7068 said:D/D problem to me is that its #3 has absolutely 0 synergy with the rest of the kit. D/D is meant to be played with power stats. #3 leans towards condi. On top of that, D/D kit has 0 gapcloser and smallest range of all thief weapons.

It competes with S/D and D/P for the power spot, but it lacks the mobility the two have. At least D/P can go invisible anywhere with 5+2. D/D needs to get close. It just doesn't work imo and #3 needs a complete rework.

+1.I couldn’t agree more.You summarized the entire problem of D/D.

[Exzen.2976]

I personally have success roaming outnumbered on D/D. It has higher burst potential than D/P and S/D and while it lacks gap closers, you can take those with you in Shadowstep and infiltrators signet and on your second weapon set. It would be better if #3 was more power orientated rather than condi (I.e cut the bleeds and up the power dmg) but I do like having the extra evade.

[kash.9213]

@Exzen.2976 said:I personally have success roaming outnumbered on D/D. It has higher burst potential than D/P and S/D and while it lacks gap closers, you can take those with you in Shadowstep and infiltrators signet and on your second weapon set. It would be better if #3 was more power orientated rather than condi (I.e cut the bleeds and up the power dmg) but I do like having the extra evade.

Where are you fitting in condi clear?

[Exzen.2976]

@kash.9213 said:Where are you fitting in condi clear?

I find I have enough between Shadow’s Embrace (2 damaging condis cleansed per CnD), Withdraw and Shadowstep.

[kash.9213]

@Exzen.2976 said:

@kash.9213 said:Where are you fitting in condi clear?

I find I have enough between Shadow’s Embrace (2 damaging condis cleansed per CnD), Withdraw and Shadowstep.

Ya that's pretty much what I ended up with. It wasn't as responsive to conditions as having on demand clear like Death's Retreat or Inf Return but realistically I probably play too conservatively with Shadowstep when most conditions are flak.