Pure "Tank" builds should not be allowed

[Obtena.7952]

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:I don't die to them. The issue is they cannot die, and if you run around and ONLY run into these builds, you can go upwards of hours without killing a single player in WvW which is really unfun. You can just run around and only have stalemates, basically.

That's not a problem in WvW ... the objective isn't to kill people ... that's just a means to an end to capture zones, etc ...

If you want to simply kill people, you have PVP for that.

PvP is about nodes. It's not about fights even remotely.

WvW is by far the best place to go for fights. I haven't looked at the scoreboard any at all (beyond to see if I will need to move server to escape t1-t3 lag/zergfests) and WvWs been my primary gamemode for years now.

You are however 100% right about unkillable builds not being a problem if they pose no threat in WvW as one can always just move on.

@Shiyo.3578 said:There are restrictions on gear in PvP for a reason - certain builds should NOT be allowed by the developers. I explained why they make the game very unfun and boring in previous posts.

Right ... because in PVP, there is a much more direct link between successfully killing players and winning. That's not as direct in WvW. You can kill tons of players ... but still lose because WvW objectives are strategically linked to the zone ownership.

No there's barely even a link in PvP.

Also a lot more people play WvW for reasons beyond trying to go up 1 tier so one can get more lags and enemies that are more scared to leave their blobs.

I won't argue with you because clearly you missed the point ... there is a DISTINCT difference between the objectives in PVP and WvW, and that difference is why tanky builds in WvW isn't a problem, EVEN if those players are unkillable, which I doubt.

I agree with that point, which I said. I just find the "go PvP if you want fights" argument to be flawed.

Except it's not flawed because it's true. it's almost impossible to avoid fighting other players without it impact your success in PVP because of how PVP is implemented. It's completely possible to avoid fighting players in WvW without it impacting your success in WvW. Different objectives, different environment.

[XenesisII.1540]

I still don't see why mirage needed to have a leg cut off with the amount of other condi sustain classes I've been seeing currently.Balance is still terribad, just without one shots, which is great, but what about the rest now...

[lodjur.1284]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:I don't die to them. The issue is they cannot die, and if you run around and ONLY run into these builds, you can go upwards of hours without killing a single player in WvW which is really unfun. You can just run around and only have stalemates, basically.

That's not a problem in WvW ... the objective isn't to kill people ... that's just a means to an end to capture zones, etc ...

If you want to simply kill people, you have PVP for that.

PvP is about nodes. It's not about fights even remotely.

WvW is by far the best place to go for fights. I haven't looked at the scoreboard any at all (beyond to see if I will need to move server to escape t1-t3 lag/zergfests) and WvWs been my primary gamemode for years now.

You are however 100% right about unkillable builds not being a problem if they pose no threat in WvW as one can always just move on.

@Shiyo.3578 said:There are restrictions on gear in PvP for a reason - certain builds should NOT be allowed by the developers. I explained why they make the game very unfun and boring in previous posts.

Right ... because in PVP, there is a much more direct link between successfully killing players and winning. That's not as direct in WvW. You can kill tons of players ... but still lose because WvW objectives are strategically linked to the zone ownership.

No there's barely even a link in PvP.

Also a lot more people play WvW for reasons beyond trying to go up 1 tier so one can get more lags and enemies that are more scared to leave their blobs.

I won't argue with you because clearly you missed the point ... there is a DISTINCT difference between the objectives in PVP and WvW, and that difference is why tanky builds in WvW isn't a problem, EVEN if those players are unkillable, which I doubt.

I agree with that point, which I said. I just find the "go PvP if you want fights" argument to be flawed.

Except it's not flawed because it's true. it's almost impossible to avoid fighting other players without it impact your success in PVP because of how PVP is implemented. It's completely possible to avoid fighting players in WvW without it impacting your success in WvW. Different objectives, different environment.

Yet if you care absolutely nothing for objectives and just wanna fight wvw is your best bet.

Also sPvP got garbo balancing (for fights at least as the gamemode is most def not about fighting) and has 0 build diversity

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:I don't die to them. The issue is they cannot die, and if you run around and ONLY run into these builds, you can go upwards of hours without killing a single player in WvW which is really unfun. You can just run around and only have stalemates, basically.

That's not a problem in WvW ... the objective isn't to kill people ... that's just a means to an end to capture zones, etc ...

If you want to simply kill people, you have PVP for that.

PvP is about nodes. It's not about fights even remotely.

WvW is by far the best place to go for fights. I haven't looked at the scoreboard any at all (beyond to see if I will need to move server to escape t1-t3 lag/zergfests) and WvWs been my primary gamemode for years now.

You are however 100% right about unkillable builds not being a problem if they pose no threat in WvW as one can always just move on.

@Shiyo.3578 said:There are restrictions on gear in PvP for a reason - certain builds should NOT be allowed by the developers. I explained why they make the game very unfun and boring in previous posts.

Right ... because in PVP, there is a much more direct link between successfully killing players and winning. That's not as direct in WvW. You can kill tons of players ... but still lose because WvW objectives are strategically linked to the zone ownership.

No there's barely even a link in PvP.

Also a lot more people play WvW for reasons beyond trying to go up 1 tier so one can get more lags and enemies that are more scared to leave their blobs.

I won't argue with you because clearly you missed the point ... there is a DISTINCT difference between the objectives in PVP and WvW, and that difference is why tanky builds in WvW isn't a problem, EVEN if those players are unkillable, which I doubt.

I agree with that point, which I said. I just find the "go PvP if you want fights" argument to be flawed.

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:But out of curiosity what builds do you feel needs a bed to sustain and how would one achieve this without nerfing them in a group setting (or a solo setting where they don't run a 0 dmg build)?

I don't pretend to be a balance engineer, and I also don't have the ability to test changes in game like the devs do. That is something I would need access to, as well as being able to see what build these people are running, I can make guesses based on what I see, but there are lots of unknowns and while I play most classes, some I don't know well enough to be able to tell what traits etc they are running just from a fight (at least not all), and PMing them about their build often just results in some insult and block, after all, most of these people enjoy being trolls, so it's expected. I am also probably not the best person for that job either, as there are many far better players than myself.

For me it comes down to, in the example of the engi, it's ability to heal, often times going from 10% to 90% instantly, even though it still has high mobility access, blocks, invulnerability, barrier up time, range denial, CC etc etc, yes, lacks pretty much all dmg. It's the fact it can face tank and STILL do all of the above, making it great for trolling, and most classes have SOME sort of build that can troll well, though some much better than others, such as some thief builds or druid builds. This comes down to not just stats, or a healing skill, but having access to other sources of healing, many skills that having extra healing, protection up time etc. boons are a big part of it. Even in large scale, its all about who can strip the stab and bomb faster than FB and engi can clear everything and reapply boons. However this is becoming more common in builds at the solo level, with almost full protection up time, constant stab etc, strong boons like these should not have that sort of up time (big time in solo), it becomes more like a passive that is always up, rather than skilled use to counter a CC or burst etc. Now, before the engi mains come in thinking I am asking for a nerf, I am not, most engi builds I have zero issue with, it's the troll build only, though knowing anet, their fix would be short sighted and nerf it across the board.

It's to easy to just throw things out there that would fix the issue, but hurt something else, such as other builds or diversity. And yes, I understand these builds are part of that, however that does not change my stance that they (troll builds) are not healthy for the game.

There is no fix for "troll" builds that doesn't hit "legit" builds.

Hit? Probably not, but that is not the goal, keeping them useful while giving something else as a trade off to replace what the "legit" builds lose. I don't buy into "can't be fixed" that is just lazy. So many games get it right, so can this one, we have just had so little serious looks at balance that it seems impossible at this point. If a class can't be balanced it's a design issue and it needs to be rethought.

Nothing is perfect.

"Troll" builds are scarce and not even that annoying, if they could be nuked without any collateral damage sure, but it's not worth the collateral damage to hit a few outlier builds that see extremely little use and are annoying but not much else.

[Jski.6180]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:All classes needs a real counter effect to tanks. Only a few class have realty counters to them now. Give all class boon strip, counter healing and counter armor/ high hp effects (attks that ignore dmg -% and attks that do dmg base off of targets max hp).Wait so you mean to say we need to counter tanks with some kind of builds that have lots of sustain but also DoT which ignores the toughness that tanks have - maybe even things lowering the effectivness of healing, or keeping hp regen suppressed with some kind of trickle damage (that maybe even punish them for using skills carelessly!)?

No its about doing high dmg vs target that are building tankly. This is how other games run and balance there game. This is a bad mind set that only a DoT will work to deal with high tankly class when it in fact causes tankly classes and builds to rule in the first places.

You needs means of bypassing what is making a build tankly. In gw2 you have healing tanks boon tanks hp tank and def or dmg -% tanks. Healing tanks you use poison for its -33% not its DoT there needs to be more in the game like poison that is not tide to a DoT making it more of a condi dmg tool and always going to be balanced to its dmg effect as well as its added effect.For a boon tank you must remove boons to get the player this often is a mix of all of the tank types but only one counter is needed boon strip so by adding boon strip choose to all classes (each class can do it in its own way) would open up a lot of chose for real counter play of builds out side of playing the "right" class to beat a tankly "build" not class.For hp tank you simply need a way to do a lot of dmg to overcome high hp this is where dmg % base off of max hp comes into play (if you use lower end gear and are a lower hp classes your allready not being an hp tank so it fixes it self.)There is a lot of dmg -% in this game from armor boons even food but there no real dmg boost that can mach that when it comes to genal builds only set clases have that and its not good for balancing to make a class only able to do with a "build." Every class needs a chose so by adding in means of doing dmg that are not effected by these a true dmg (we have them in the game already like the old sharer aegis effect) adding in a effect for all classes to let them land a real hit that always dose a set dmg is helpfully for braking a tank build that is ruining a high dmg -%.

Every class needs a chose build that deals with every classes ability to go tankly.

[Henry.5713]

Not sure, quite a lot of players seem to be dying on these super tanky builds.

Unless, of course, this is about a single player running a certain build that is not able to kill players on high sustain builds. In which case I wonder why you do not also complain about the high mobility, teleports and stealth everyone runs these days.

[WorldofBay.8160]

@"Jski.6180" said:Every class needs a chose build that deals with every classes ability to go tankly.

sounds like "remove classes" tbh.if every class has a build for everything and a counter build for every of those builds, that sounds like there are no classes at all. which is bad in a game that wants cooperation.

it's totally fine if there is a class that can only deal dmg and never tank if it does its job well. same is true the other way round: it is totally fine if a class has no means to counter a certain tank build if it is useful elsewhere. at the very least any account, even free accounts, has access to multiple character slots -> not only the free choice of the class but also the possibility to adapt by switching class.

[Jski.6180]

@WorldofBay.8160 said:

@"Jski.6180" said:Every class needs a chose build that deals with every classes ability to go tankly.

sounds like "remove classes" tbh.if every class has a build for everything and a counter build for every of those builds, that sounds like there are no classes at all. which is bad in a game that wants cooperation.

it's totally fine if there is a class that can only deal dmg and never tank if it does its job well. same is true the other way round: it is totally fine if a class has no means to counter a certain tank build if it is useful elsewhere. at the very least any account, even free accounts, has access to multiple character slots -> not only the free choice of the class but also the possibility to adapt by switching class.

By adding more ability to classes is a means of "remove classes?" I am lost how you even got that.

Gw2 is about builds and less about classes. Even the lowest hp / def class can build for high tankly though high hp and def with gear. As long as they keep adding in elite spec your point of view is null.

I am just suggesting for anet to not wait for elite spec to fix what the class is missing they need to be on core classes as well as runes and sigil maybe even gear combos (i love to see real armor pin as a combo type getting away from crit only power dmg and more of a harder to stop power dmg).

[Rorania.5719]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:I don't think anyone who has replied has read more than the title. State of forums in 2020.

I was about to say...lol.Some people have addressed the issue though by accident it seems.If you get rid of full tanky builds, you need to get rid of full damage burst builds as well. Otherwise two ppl meeting with full burst damage and hitting each other at the same time will die together and no one wins there either ;PI think OP just wants some tweaks to tank build so every person you meet while roaming 1v1 doesn't end up with BOTH eventually running off/giving up cuz tank man can't kill you with "kitten" damage and you can kill tank man because tank build is op. Whether that's possible, idk.

[lare.5129]

if we remove tank bluid we broke concept of open world smell. We make from some open world pvp zone the middle instance with spvp smell.This is fail. But also I like if wvw fail, because now on wvw to much people on queue. Let push some wvw members from wvw!

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@Henry.5713 said:Not sure, quite a lot of players seem to be dying on these super tanky builds.

Unless, of course, this is about a single player running a certain build that is not able to kill players on high sustain builds. In which case I wonder why you do not also complain about the high mobility, teleports and stealth everyone runs these days.

Normal tanky build, or what I call bruiser builds are more than killable. The unkillable builds also include the high mobility and high stealth uptime builds, however just because someone makes a post about the tank builds does not mean they don't believe those are a problem as well, I don't understand when people make posts like this. Just because almost unkillable tanks exist doesn't imply the others don't as well.

I mean, we have had YEARS of posts about them after all.

I also stated before the last big balance patch that mobility and stealth were going to become FAR more valuable once dmg was nerfed.

[Dawdler.8521]

@lare.5129 said:if we remove tank bluid we broke concept of open world smell. We make from some open world pvp zone the middle instance with spvp smell.This is fail. But also I like if wvw fail, because now on wvw to much people on queue. Let push some wvw members from wvw!Yeah whatever he said. Tanks smell.

[Obtena.7952]

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:I don't die to them. The issue is they cannot die, and if you run around and ONLY run into these builds, you can go upwards of hours without killing a single player in WvW which is really unfun. You can just run around and only have stalemates, basically.

That's not a problem in WvW ... the objective isn't to kill people ... that's just a means to an end to capture zones, etc ...

If you want to simply kill people, you have PVP for that.

PvP is about nodes. It's not about fights even remotely.

WvW is by far the best place to go for fights. I haven't looked at the scoreboard any at all (beyond to see if I will need to move server to escape t1-t3 lag/zergfests) and WvWs been my primary gamemode for years now.

You are however 100% right about unkillable builds not being a problem if they pose no threat in WvW as one can always just move on.

@Shiyo.3578 said:There are restrictions on gear in PvP for a reason - certain builds should NOT be allowed by the developers. I explained why they make the game very unfun and boring in previous posts.

Right ... because in PVP, there is a much more direct link between successfully killing players and winning. That's not as direct in WvW. You can kill tons of players ... but still lose because WvW objectives are strategically linked to the zone ownership.

No there's barely even a link in PvP.

Also a lot more people play WvW for reasons beyond trying to go up 1 tier so one can get more lags and enemies that are more scared to leave their blobs.

I won't argue with you because clearly you missed the point ... there is a DISTINCT difference between the objectives in PVP and WvW, and that difference is why tanky builds in WvW isn't a problem, EVEN if those players are unkillable, which I doubt.

I agree with that point, which I said. I just find the "go PvP if you want fights" argument to be flawed.

Except it's not flawed because it's true. it's almost impossible to avoid fighting other players without it impact your success in PVP because of how PVP is implemented. It's completely possible to avoid fighting players in WvW without it impacting your success in WvW. Different objectives, different environment.

Yet if you care absolutely nothing for objectives and just wanna fight wvw is your best bet.

Also sPvP got garbo balancing (for fights at least as the gamemode is most def not about fighting) and has 0 build diversity

Maybe .. but that doesn't change what I said.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Wait, how do you go hours without killing anyone anyways? Sounds like a population issue.

Either that or you only pick fights with minstrel classes running to their zerg.

[Mauzi.5892]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

You guys have gone to great lengths to make sure tanky, sustainy, "invincible" builds do not exist in PvP by consistently removing any amulet that allows such a build to exist. However, in WvW, we have normal PvE gear stats, and some stat combos that make it very easy to become nigh-invincible in PvP. This makes unfun and frustrating, as someone being incredibly tanky is as unfun as someone one shotting you.

Stop unloading all your burst into the enemy block and invulns.

Problem solved.

[Supreme.3164]

It's the same person who made this thread:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/106556/what-are-the-current-best-1v1-builds#latest

[avey.4201]

people complain about the one shot meta, it's not gone, only a couple classes have the option now = not balanced.people don't know challenge until they've tried to fly a kite while killing people, if you never seen an asura flying a kite while bouncing on someones head you missed some good fun wvw.some times times you'd be fighting people with mirror image builds to your own except they had use of their weapon skills.you had to dodge, block, blind, spike some damage, leap away, and port back in, because 1 single hit causes you to lose your kite, then you have to manage stomping them without taking a single hit(mesmers were rough).it took perfect timing, and good skill management to down/stomp someone without losing your kite.2/25 killed the most fun/challenging mini sport the game had to offer.

[Shiyo.3578]

@"Supreme.3164" said:It's the same person who made this thread:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/106556/what-are-the-current-best-1v1-builds#latest

So not only did you not read past the title, but you also resort to ad hominem attacks over someone.......asking a question?Um, ok.

[XenesisII.1540]

Can you imagine a game building their class system without the traditional trinity setup of tank dps healer and balanced restrictions on sustain mobility damage, and having an open system on stats without the traditional class stat restrictions, and giving those classes their own unique tools to make up for their own survival. But then years later decide to bring in actual healer roles and insert them into those classes without the usual restrictions to balance those roles, then decide to spread the love through more boons and healing, but then counter that sustain with more dps, but then counter that with more cleanses and shields, but then counter that with less dps, but then counter that with..... wait wait this is getting too ridiculous, there's no way a developer would do a cycle that crazy.

Oh man, I hope y'all are having a sustaining sunny saturday!

[Shiyo.3578]

Even with all the super tanky amulets removed from PvP the meta in organized games is all tanky sustainy builds, same for 3v3. Now imagine WvW with ALL gear stats...

[SWI.4127]

I don't really care about tank builds. It's more the cheese condi builds which are also tank because Dire/Trailblazer is too good with no drawbacks.

[Dawdler.8521]

@SWI.4127 said:I don't really care about tank builds. It's more the cheese condi builds which are also tank because Dire/Trailblazer is too good with no drawbacks.So dire/trailblazer is meta in zergs now? Meta in 25 man guilds? Meta in 5 mans? Meta anywhere outside of solo roaming?

It must be if you say it has no drawbacks. This by definition mean its best in slot and used by everyone, because why shouldnt it, its too good.

[ASP.8093]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Even with all the super tanky amulets removed from PvP the meta in organized games is all tanky sustainy builds, same for 3v3. Now imagine WvW with ALL gear stats...

We don't have to imagine it, we can just go play and see what other people are playing.

[lodjur.1284]

@SWI.4127 said:I don't really care about tank builds. It's more the cheese condi builds which are also tank because Dire/Trailblazer is too good with no drawbacks.

It has drawbacks. I will list the biggest ones here.

Most condi builds need a dedicated healer to do well.

This is because they lack self-sustain, with the exception of necro (only recently, and honestly very overhyped) and ele (tho fairly meh atm), all condi builds lack sustain, which is a big problem when your gameplan is to win by attrition.

The other 2 exceptions would be thief/mesmers who have so much mobility they don't care about their sustain, but their condi variants are less annoying to fight than their power counterparts.

Most power builds have enough mobility and/or burst to not need sustain, or have strong sustain traits.

You're hardcountered by anything with strong clears and by resistance. Much more than any power build is by, well anything.

Worst scenario as power you have weakness and they have protection and you end up doing 50-60% less dmg, worst case as condi they have resistance or large amounts of clear (which firebrand both providers) and you do 90-95% less dmg (depending on how much power dmg your class pushes out). There's a reason condi builds are nonexistent in larger scale fights.

You don't have any synergy with a high mobility build, which means you're not doing the most broken thing you can be doing.

Burst is an obvious combo with mobility, conditions are not. Mobility is by far the strongest thing in smallscale. Condition builds rarely excel at it.

I mean you can think condi is op, but saying it lacks drawbacks is just a lie.

Personally I find condi builds much much easier to fight than power and this after dedicating a very large part of our group comp/our builds to fight power and extremely little to fighting condi (ie healer with almost 0 clears, no strong anti condi skills from anyone else etc, just cleansing and the lowest opportunity cost traits on everyone else) (groupsize 3).

[SWI.4127]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@SWI.4127 said:I don't really care about tank builds. It's more the cheese condi builds which are also tank because Dire/Trailblazer is too good with no drawbacks.So dire/trailblazer is meta in zergs now? Meta in 25 man guilds? Meta in 5 mans? Meta anywhere outside of solo roaming?

It must be if you say it has

no drawbacks

. This by definition mean its best in slot and used by everyone, because why shouldnt it, its too good.

I was talking about solo roaming. And yeah no drawbacks was bad wording. I still think Dire/TB are really unbalanced stat combos though. It's the best of both worlds and it makes for really boring fights.

[pninak.1069]

if tanks are really that much of a problem I might consider switching to a tank builds just to get on someobodyelse's nerves. you can't punish players for using a build they like otherwise meta will be back to day 1 with 1shot builds going around in wvw forever. I for one don't like that dps is the most rewarded playstyle. and since a lot of stuff got cut in the last few patches I am happy that tanks, off-tanks and healers finally see a function in wvw.