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The disappointing story (Spoilers)


Tazer.2157

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Kinda surprised that they didn't ask Logan for military advice. One of the repeated stated problems in the episode is that Ryland has been out-thinking other charr leaders because he knows how charr think and work militarily. So why not ask a human, particularly one with some experience in fighting charr in Ebonhawke about how to fight charr who out-thinks other charr at being charr?

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

  1. There is absolutely nothing colonialist about the Charr realizing their society is broken, and at least one of them trying to fix it. Colonialism would require an outside force coming in and making them change, this is purely an internal matter. The commander is making none of these changes, Crecia is.

This is not the case. the commander is openly opinionated against Smodur and very favorable towards Crecia. I am pretty sure we are going to help Crecia shape the Charr in the image she shes fit. That is colonialism. II'll just ask Aurene to kill anyone who says otherwise. Comply or die! I don't mind if we have the option. If the devs decide to allow us to decide the fate of the Char, they should let the player decide what that fate should be. Should the char change? Or should the Charr stay the way they are? That option should be given to the players.

  1. You are fundamentally wrong about the Klingons in Star Trek. In fact, its a pretty big point throughout The Next Generation and Deep Space 9 that the Klingon Empire is broken, and corrupt, and needs to change. Throughout both shows these corrupt elements are exposed and cut out, and it all comes to a head in Depp Space 9 when Ezri Dax tells Worf that the Klingon Empire is dying, and she believes it deserves to die, due to how corrupt it is, pointing out that Worf is the most honorable Klingon she knows, and even he just sits by and lets the corruption fester. This leads to Worf challenging the leader of the Klingon Empire, Gowron, and killing him in battle, and then handing the leadership of the Empire to the Klingon Martok, one of the few truly honorable Klingons, with the show heavily suggesting that Martok will lead the Klingons into a new age of actual honor, and cast aside the blood lust that has ruled Klingons since the Enterprise era. These sorts of large scale changes happen to not only the Klingons, but also the Cardassians, Ferengi, and Dominion.

Again this is nothing but a representation of colonization. Worf was raised on earth by human parents. His perspective of morality and justice is from a human perspective. He was a Kingon only by DNA. The terms you use such as honor, justice are all subjective. We derived our laws from religion. Many western ideals are fundamentally different from the values of the East. Can we tell who is right or wrong?

  1. It doesn't matter how Charr civilization developed, there are basic ideals of unalienable rights that are fundamentally intrinsic to all life. That Charr society allows people like Bangar, and Smodur, to exist, and allows them to throw away these intrinsic rights, means their society is broken, and we are seeing the result of that now

You again define Smodur, Bangar as being arrogant from a human perspective. Their behavior is not acceptable in a human society, but is a human society equivalent to Charr society? No it is not.

It should not be acceptable no matter the perspective,. Its telling that, in situations like those regarding children and fahrars, even after centuries of separating children from their parents to be put into the fahrars,

For comparison, some cultures view extra martial affairs as morally wrong as they feel that a married family is a more stable environment for the kids. Are they wrong? Are they right? You see perceptions of what is right and wrong are dependent on your upbringing, your environment, etc. You say it is wrong, but who are you to judge that what the Charr is doing is wrong? Your judgement is based on a human idea of what children are.

we know MANY MANY Charr do, because even they are, at least subconsciously, aware that the entire system is dumb and broken to begin with.

Rytlock went from being a bad ass to a pussy cat who feels victimized and bullied. I did not like that. It is so obvious that the writers want to change the Charr and make them another Human 2.0 race. Next patch are the writers going to tell us that the Asura are too competitive for their own good and they will destroy themselves as a result of their pursuit?

I honestly expect that, maybe not within the timeframe of GW2, but at some point in the future, everything that happens in this arc will lead to the breakdown and dismantling of Charr society as we know it currently because it simply cannot hold as is.

I will agree with you on this. Crecia, Ryland or Rytlock with the help of the all powerful commander will help the Charr rise from their oppression of the Fahrar and will go on to lead a more peaceful, subtle lives. They will raise their young by themselves, even send them to universities! The Charr will then use their ingenuity to eradicate poverty in GW2 and uplift all the races in Tyria. Perhaps they will also destroy all the statues of their heroes as they are an indicator towards their "destructive" past. YAWN!!

  1. The Olmakhan split off to escape the brutal persecution and discrimination of the Flame Legion they came from. The game makes no effort to show the side as anything other then black and white, because the situation was just that. The Flame Legion at the time was indisputably bad, and the Olmakhan left because they couldn't stand it, and are good for it.

I respect the Olmakhan because we had no say in their opinion of their lifestyle choices. We met them as they are. We did not judge them nor did we congratulate them for their way of life. The Olmakhan are proof that Charr can be self deterministic. They do not need Crecia nor the commander to decide their fate.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

"Wrong" is a bit subjective - that's part of the issue, I guess - but literally the first and last instance shows her as conflicted. Especially the moment when Smodur kills Cinder. She wants to bring Ryland back, but she protects Smodur from Ryland, because she doesn't want to lose Ryland and she doesn't want to lose the unity of the High Legions. And you can see the guilt in her facial expression during that cinematic (masterfully done imo), where she realizes just what she had done by protecting Smodur from Ryland.

What is wrong is never made clearer in this episode than anywhere else. The commander is given lines unfavorable towards Smodur. The story tells us that Smodur is wrong and Crecia is right. The story never questions Crecia's action, there are no consequences for her decisions. The last instance is not a portrayal of her conflict but rather further antagonism of Smodur. Crecia here is made a victim like Ryland. Both were cheated or betrayed by Smodur. The cinematic further emphasizes this point where she is made the victim of being betrayed.

So yes, she is failing. She's constantly trying to keep peace between the Imperators by playing both sides, but also clearly favors Malice which Smodur notices and increasingly agitates him. She tries to keep Ryland safe but also wants to end the war. She's trying to play the peacekeeper, and she fails - quite spectacularly at the end.

I wish the story explores this weakness of Crecia you mention where her protective nature for Ryland might be bad for the united legion's efforts in the war. But that side is not even explored! The story could have put in an instance where the commander and the legion are lured into a trap by the dominion due to Crecia's softer approach. Then there is potential to question Crecia's approach and compare it to Smodur's. But the story is not interested in that. The story has no intention to portray Ryland as someone who is really with Bangar in his plan for domination. The story wants Crecia and Rytlock to be reunited with Ryland. Ryland will have a deliverance arc I am sure of it. Does this make a good story? It is so predictable and boring.

And "for whatever reason"? Smodur tricked the Commander to committing a literal war crime (bombing non-combatants), after already been seen executing POWs (another war crime by most standards), and at the end he personally executes another POW (again: war crime) which ended any chance of a peaceful resolution of the war. It's pretty kitten obvious why the Commander are upset with Smodur.

First. Smodur did not trick anyone. It was so obvious that there were people down the hatch. Second if the player wants to take that course of action, the commander should not have lines written against that course of action. We are playing the commander, the writers aren't. They tell the story and the path to take should be in the hands of the player. I have no problems with the actions Smodur took because I agree with them, however the commander I play seems to have a mind of his own and I do not like that.

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@"Tazer.2157" said:This is not the case. the commander is openly opinionated against Smodur and very favorable towards Crecia. I am pretty sure we are going to help Crecia shape the Charr in the image she shes fit. That is colonialism. II'll just ask Aurene to kill anyone who says otherwise. Comply or die! I don't mind if we have the option. If the devs decide to allow us to decide the fate of the Char, they should let the player decide what that fate should be. Should the char change? Or should the Charr stay the way they are? That option should be given to the players.

Feels like you're using a ridiculously broad definition of "colonialism" here. In this hypothetical scenario we have a charr leader reshaping charr society in response to events that have shown a weakness in the traditional social structure, and you essentially seem to be calling it "colonialism" because there's a member of an outside culture who agrees with them and is supporting them to do so.

I recently shared something on social media talking about the dangers of conspiracy theories, which might be seen by people in the US. As I am not a US citizen, does this mean I am engaging in colonialism with the USA? Plus, there's also the question of the Commander themselves possibly being a charr... does this become colonialism because the Pact Commander has been exposed to outside influences? Does this make it colonialism if anyone ever makes a decision about their country that has been influenced in any way by exposure to ideas from outside their country?

Colonialism, as per the accepted definition, is one country exerting at least partial control over another. Charr leaders choosing to implement reforms, even if those reforms are inspired by or implemented with the assistance of outside parties, is not colonialism as long as the charr leaders are still genuinely making their own decisions. It could be called foreign influence, and whether that's something to be considered undesirable is open for debate, but calling it colonialism cheapens the term.

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@"Tazer.2157" said:What is wrong is never made clearer in this episode than anywhere else. The commander is given lines unfavorable towards Smodur. The story tells us that Smodur is wrong and Crecia is right. The story never questions Crecia's action, there are no consequences for her decisions. The last instance is not a portrayal of her conflict but rather further antagonism of Smodur. Crecia here is made a victim like Ryland. Both were cheated or betrayed by Smodur. The cinematic further emphasizes this point where she is made the victim of being betrayed.

"Right and wrong" go beyond war crimes though. And there are consequences to Crecia's decisions. Hell, I explicitly stated the consequence of her actions in my previous post. Crecia is not made a victim, and I don't fathom how you believe this.

I wish the story explores this weakness of Crecia you mention where her protective nature for Ryland might be bad for the united legion's efforts in the war. But that side is not even explored!

Last time I checked, you don't need something slammed in your face to have it be presented. It's there. Replay the episode, pay attention to context and wording. Or wait til voice overs are added, I'm sure the tone and emotion will expose it more thoroughly for you.

First. Smodur did not trick anyone. It was so obvious that there were people down the hatch. Second if the player wants to take that course of action, the commander should not have lines written against that course of action. We are playing the commander, the writers aren't. They tell the story and the path to take should be in the hands of the player. I have no problems with the actions Smodur took because I agree with them, however the commander I play seems to have a mind of his own and I do not like that.

1) The trick wasn't that we were killing people, it was how they were being killed and why. Though when we were first sent there, Smodur did lie about what our objective was. And it wasn't just the Commander and Rytlock - the Flame Shamans were also implicated by enchanting the crystal without being told what it was to be used for.

2) There actually is an option where the Commander can not throw the grenade. Sadly, Rytlock does it for you.

If you agree with committing war crimes, I am glad you're not in the military.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:

Feels like you're using a ridiculously broad definition of "colonialism" here. In this hypothetical scenario we have a charr leader reshaping charr society in response to events that have shown a weakness in the traditional social structure, and you essentially seem to be calling it "colonialism" because there's a member of an outside culture who agrees with them and is supporting them to do so.

I recently shared something on social media talking about the dangers of conspiracy theories, which might be seen by people in the US. As I am not a US citizen, does this mean I am engaging in colonialism with the USA? Plus, there's also the question of the Commander themselves possibly being a charr... does this become colonialism because the Pact Commander has been exposed to outside influences? Does this make it colonialism if anyone ever makes a decision about their country that has been influenced in any way by exposure to ideas from outside their country?

Colonialism, as per the accepted definition, is one country exerting at least partial control over another. Charr leaders choosing to implement reforms, even if those reforms are inspired by or implemented with the assistance of outside parties, is not colonialism as long as the Charr leaders are still genuinely making their own decisions. It could be called foreign influence, and whether that's something to be considered undesirable is open for debate, but calling it colonialism cheapens the term.

In this entire patch, we are killing Charr soldiers on the other side. We are not going after Bangar, we are not preparing the defenses for Jormag, we are not taking a neutral stance. What part of this does not seem like colonialism? If anything our actions are further weakening the Charr. We are not just an outside influence. We are the commander of the pact who has an elder dragon and an army. If anything, our actions in this episode validate Bangar's quest to get a dragon of his own.

We also are not talking about exposing the Charr to other cultures. We are talking about redefining the Charr. The strongest leader wins. If Crecia and the other Imperators can take over and change the Charr WITHOUT the commander's help, then I have no problem with it because it is basically a tenet of Charr society that the strong prevail.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

1) The trick wasn't that we were killing people, it was how they were being killed and why. Though when we were first sent there, Smodur did lie about what our objective was. And it wasn't just the Commander and Rytlock - the Flame Shamans were also implicated by enchanting the crystal without being told what it was to be used for.

Are you seriously suggesting this was a surprise? From the beginning the story does everything to make Smodur look like a maniac. Anyone could see this happening. Ask yourself, what purpose did this instance fulfill? IT fulfilled only a singular purpose along with all the others instances in the story which is to make Smodur look bad. They should just rename the episode to "Smodur's folly", it would be so much more fitting.

If you agree with committing war crimes, I am glad you're not in the military.

The entire episode you kill Dominion Charr who you have not met, who haven't personally wronged you. There is no higher ground to take here.

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Actually the Dominion Charr in question have gone out of their way to judge every non-Charr race as worthy of death, therefore I do actually think they have personally wronged me and should be killed. Immediately.

However at the same time I don't see a reason to go out of my way to be cruel, nor to not accept surrender if offered. the R&D crew was unarmed, I would of considered custody once they were cornered.

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@Tazer.2157 said:In this entire patch, we are killing Charr soldiers on the other side. We are not going after Bangar, we are not preparing the defenses for Jormag, we are not taking a neutral stance. What part of this does not seem like colonialism? If anything our actions are further weakening the Charr. We are not just an outside influence. We are the commander of the pact who has an elder dragon and an army. If anything, our actions in this episode validate Bangar's quest to get a dragon of his own.

We also are not talking about exposing the Charr to other cultures. We are talking about redefining the Charr. The strongest leader wins. If Crecia and the other Imperators can take over and change the Charr WITHOUT the commander's help, then I have no problem with it because it is basically a tenet of Charr society that the strong prevail.

Because Bangar is NOT present on the battlefield, and is infact, beyond Wolf's Crossing, which the Legions are trying to secure. The whole point of the two-lane push is to be able to actually get to Bangar.

We are not the Commander of the Pact, and Aurene doesn't even make a presence in this episode. We don't have an army. We helped lead the joint forces against Kralkatorrik but guess what happened the moment he died? We backed out of that spot. The alliance remains but now each group has returned to their homes to rebuild. The only force we could even be considered to be "in charge of" outside Dragon's Watch is the Crystal Bloom order. That being because they are a group following and revering Aurene. Even then, they consider Caithe to be their leader.

If Crecia and the other Imperators win, they will be changing the Charr. I highly doubt the Commander would have any say in the deep process of rebuilding their culture. For example, look at Elona. Did the commander have ANY part in the restructuring of those nations after Joko? Nope. And they peacefully split into three groups, reorganized their society and started to rebuild.

@Tazer.2157 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

1) The trick wasn't that we were killing people, it was
how
they were being killed and
why
. Though when we were first sent there, Smodur
did
lie about what our objective was. And it wasn't just the Commander and Rytlock - the Flame Shamans were also implicated by enchanting the crystal without being told what it was to be used for.

Are you seriously suggesting this was a surprise? From the beginning the story does everything to make Smodur look like a maniac. Anyone could see this happening. Ask yourself, what purpose did this instance fulfill? IT fulfilled only a singular purpose along with all the others instances in the story which is to make Smodur look bad. They should just rename the episode to "Smodur's folly", it would be so much more fitting.

"Smodur would kill traitors" is not a surprise. "Smodur would TRICK allied forces into deploying a searing crystal into a research lab without even telling anybody what was going on inside" is a bit of a surprise. See, up until that point I assumed that we built the cannon near the overlook to launch a special ordnance against a specific Dominion target, like Steel warband's tank. He had been talking about how they had captured/stolen/obtained Iron legion weapons/war machines.

If you agree with committing war crimes, I am glad you're not in the military.

The entire episode you kill Dominion Charr who you have not met, who haven't personally wronged you. There is no higher ground to take here.

Actually, if Charr PC you've met the Cache Keepers. They are Charr PC warband recruits who have defected. The Charr under the Dominion also advocate that other races should be subjected or killed off, so they have presented themselves as a clear threat. They also believe they can actually get a dragon to obey them.

Of course, there is a very, very big difference here. One is walking up to a supply depot, dropping an extremely powerful bomb inside, and then finding out everybody inside was non-combatant researchers instead of crates of guns being the only thing there. The other is fighting a soldier face to face on the battlefield and killing them as they are trying to kill you.

Here's the reason it's called a war crime. A: everybody was tricked into doing it. B: It was a searing crystal used against non-combatants. And Searing crystals carry a very dark history for the Flame Legion. Flame Legion is reforming and dragging itself back from it's evil history, and the searing is one of the biggest stains on their record. They don't want those things coming back into use.

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I do think this dev comment from late last year is very relevanthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/997916/#Comment_997916

Good question! I'll use the charr as an example, since we discussed them pretty in depth while Alex was working on his Rytlock piece for the Requiem Twine series. On the surface, you've got a militaristic race of cat-people separated into three High Legions + the Flame Legion (and the Olmakhan). Before that, they were one group led by a Khan-Ur--so the closest real world parallel we've got is the Mongol Empire with Genghis Khan at its head. Like the charr, the Mongol Empire was formed by someone who united a bunch of nomadic tribes for the purpose of conquering. Both were very good at it (and both were responsible for the large-scale massacres of civilian populations).

In Guild Wars 2, we're further down the road; the Khan-Ur is dead and most of the charr are split across the Blood Legion, the Iron Legion, and the Ash Legion--all of which are led by a descendant of the original Khan-Ur. Something similar happened after Genghis Khan's death--if you're interested you can check out the Toluid Civil War, even though it's not a 1:1 comparison. Our imperators are on relatively good terms with each other (with the exception of the Flame Legion, which is a whole other kettle of fish) because there's strength in numbers, and so far this setup has been working pretty well for them. They're also on good terms with the other races of Tyria due to the Ebonhawke Treaty, which is itself an extension of this agreement that the imperators have with each other. That is to say: they're willing to work together for a common goal. In the past, that was expanding their territory and influence. Now, it's dealing with the Elder Dragon Problem (and other localized threats). That doesn't mean the desire to conquer goes away, though--especially not in older charr whose worldview is pretty entrenched in their personal identities. The Ebonhawke Treaty is still very new in the scheme of things, and no group of people is a monolith. The Renegades and Separatists are pretty clear evidence that not everyone is on board.

The charr's culture functions the way it does because that's what it was designed to do. Cubs leave their parents when they're weaned to join the fahrar because that's most effective. They're brought up to believe their legion comes first because that's what makes an efficient soldier. They're indoctrinated to view their warband as their family because it strengthens the warband as a military unit. None of this is biological. It's a sociological. Both the Mongols -- and the Spartans, who the charr are also inspired by -- are human, even if their societies function in very different ways from each other... and from our own.

Present-day Mongols aren't conquerors. Circumstances have changed dramatically. The charr are experiencing a similar shift, and Rytlock is among the first to start questioning the way his culture does things. This doesn't mean he's going to go out and buy a baseball mitt and play catch with his cubs--but it does mean he's no longer shunning his impulse to be more involved in their lives. Historically, charr haven't been allowed to invest much in their young; that doesn't mean they wouldn't. The Olmakhan certainly do. And Rytlock has spent enough time with Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch that this sort of thing is no longer the taboo he was raised to believe.

Not everyone would agree with him, though. Bangar certainly wouldn't--because Rytlock's way of thinking is a threat to his authority. The way things currently work allows him to maintain his power (while putting others, like gladia, at a distinct disadvantage).

Again: Sociological, not biological. These things aren't fixed. They can and do change.

Gosh this is already much longer than I anticipated, and it's a really simplified view of everything that only scratches the surface of what's going on with the charr, but I hope it gives people an idea of where we're coming from when we make these sorts of choices--like with the Twine. At the end of the day, the charr aren't human, but the people writing them are--and so are the people playing them. We're not trying to make them exactly like us, but we have only human cultures to draw from. Which is a good thing, I think, because they're all so rich and varied.

You could make an MMO where all the cultures are based on chimpanzees or dolphins or ravens -- which are some of the most intelligent animals on our planet -- but without nuance or a human spin on them, it's probably not going to be very interesting.

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@Tazer.2157 said:

1) The trick wasn't that we were killing people, it was
how
they were being killed and
why
. Though when we were first sent there, Smodur
did
lie about what our objective was. And it wasn't just the Commander and Rytlock - the Flame Shamans were also implicated by enchanting the crystal without being told what it was to be used for.

Are you seriously suggesting this was a surprise?That what we were using was a bomb that produced something very similar to dragon corruption? Which would be akin to using a high radiation grenade?

Yes, that was a surprise.

The entire episode you kill Dominion Charr who you have not met, who haven't personally wronged you. There is no higher ground to take here.There's a difference between killing those with weapons aimed at you or your fellows, and killing unnarmed prisoners or non-combatants.

A world's difference.

I am pretty sure that what Smodur did, and implicated the Commander, Rytlock, and Flame Shamans into doing, violates the Geneva Convention rules.

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I'm on no one's side, and it's one of the reasons this chapter's story was so hard to get through for me (the gameplay was great, but the story made me consistently uncomfortable).

Early on you have Smodur's firing squad, which I understand the distaste of, but the idea that we were supposed to condemn it as the most disgusting thing ever felt completely forced and a bit hypocritical. In Bjora Marches we have a Norn massacring the Sons of Svanir (Norn defectors) and insisting its justice, and its worded like we're supposed to accept their justification. Even worse, they try to hammer it in later by reminding Smodur that he'd have the people to build his war machines if he didn't execute his traitors, which doesn't make any sense, because they were traitors. They wouldn't help him do anything. Even if he forced them to do it, they might sabotage what they were working on, and that's not even getting into the ethics of forcing labor.

Of course, then they have him jump off the slippery slope throughout the chapter, by having him increasingly be a jerk until he outright has you commit what they even call a war crime (which was telegraphed from a million miles away but you can't stop).

But that makes future events even more baffling to me. So Smodur ruins the plan and betrays everyone else, and then they save him. Why? Why would they save him? Not only does everyone else hate him at this point, but he himself now proved to be a traitor. I mean, the other characters have shown a tendency to want to redeem their traitors, but letting Ryland get his revenge might have been a way to salvage the plan, and in exchange you get to remove this dangerously rogue element from your own side. I mean, seriously, at this point, no one can trust Smodur. He's significantly more dangerous than Bangar's forces, because Bangar's at least open about being our enemy and isn't in our midst.

Onto the next character though, you have Crecia and Rytlock. Their obsession with their child has gone beyond reckless at this point. Under normal circumstances I'd hate that, because while I can understand a character's sympathetic motivations of family, they are putting the entire rest of the world in danger because of their personal problems, but it stands out even more here because it's contrary to Charr culture. They're not only endangering everyone because of their refusal to believe that their child made a bad choice, their own people aren't even going to think it's sympathetic for them to do so.

This probably annoyed me the least, but when they were bullying Smodur about it early on in the chapter, I totally walked over to him and thought to myself, you're right, they need to let him go. I saw his backstory, Ryland had a chance to prevent any of this from happening, but he chose loyalty to an obvious monster over loyalty to his people or morality. That sort of enabling is how evil actually wins. A monster can only do so much without followers who will look the other way and carry out their orders.

If that didn't make it obvious, I wouldn't choose Bangar. Bangar is an almost cartoonish fool and a horrible person, and no matter of "culture" can justify that. The fact that we keep having to see him be smug and walk away untouched (at least that wasn't in this chapter) is one of the things that makes this arc as a whole so annoying. I preferred back when he first escaped from us because he at least had Jormag's storm protecting him. When Braham got to Hulk-out right in front of him, and somehow both Bangar and Ryland got away unscathed, that was the limit for me. He's just a Charr with a massive complex, he's not a superhero. He should die as easily as anyone else.

One final team I'm not siding with, but isn't a character, are the Charr themselves. The idea in this chapter that the Charr are defecting en masse, even with everything we know about Bangar, it says more about the Charr than it does any one character. "Culture" does not give you a blank check to do whatever you want. It doesn't suddenly become "good" to murder people or sacrifice them to a god against their will just because it's your culture. It doesn't suddenly prevent that victim from having grounds to be considered a victim. Despite constant attempts to say that we shouldn't hate the Charr like in Guild Wars 1, they are consistently failing to be shown as anything other than warmongering, violent monsters who have an insatiable need to be killing things on a regular basis. That is not okay.

But even if we did follow that logic. If we're supposed to accept that the Charr need to be killing something in order to preserve their species and that makes it okay, then the Charr need to understand that everyone has a right to stop the Charr in order to preserve their species, since if the Charr can't help themselves but kill, they are innately a danger to everyone around them. It's absolutely ridiculous. Ironically, the best perspective we've seen for redemption so far have been the Flame Legion, who actually do seem like they can do something other than kill, and actually seem to feel bad about it now.

I want a chapter where we care less about Bangar specifically, and let the Flame Legion shame the rest of the Charr for not really being any better. I mean, who cares if we stop Bangar from getting an Elder Dragon on his side if any Charr leader (like Smodur) is going to want to go to war and go to any lengths to fight it?

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@"Jokubas.4265" said:But that makes future events even more baffling to me. So Smodur ruins the plan and betrays everyone else, and then they save him. Why? Why would they save him? Not only does everyone else hate him at this point, but he himself now proved to be a traitor. I mean, the other characters have shown a tendency to want to redeem their traitors, but letting Ryland get his revenge might have been a way to salvage the plan, and in exchange you get to remove this dangerously rogue element from your own side. I mean, seriously, at this point, no one can trust Smodur. He's significantly more dangerous than Bangar's forces, because Bangar's at least open about being our enemy and isn't in our midst.

The plan is to end the war, not "save Ryland at all costs".Having a different approach from the Commander, Crecia or anyone else does not mean to be wrong regardless or to be a traitor.His actions are shareable or not, depending on the point of view, but Smodur wants what the other legions want, that is, to stop Bangar and prevent Jormag from awakening.

Just to make a guess, in the end the Commander's approach may turn out to be too forgiving and bring Jormag to awakening.

Smodur's death means losing the support of Iron Legion in the war, this in other words means having zero chance of victory against Bangar already this is more than enough reason to save him.

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@Tazer.2157 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:

Feels like you're using a ridiculously broad definition of "colonialism" here. In this hypothetical scenario we have a charr leader reshaping charr society in response to events that have shown a weakness in the traditional social structure, and you essentially seem to be calling it "colonialism" because there's a member of an outside culture who agrees with them and is supporting them to do so.

I recently shared something on social media talking about the dangers of conspiracy theories, which might be seen by people in the US. As I am not a US citizen, does this mean I am engaging in colonialism with the USA? Plus, there's also the question of the Commander themselves possibly being a charr... does this become colonialism because the Pact Commander has been exposed to outside influences? Does this make it colonialism if anyone ever makes a decision about their country that has been influenced in any way by exposure to ideas from outside their country?

Colonialism, as per the accepted definition, is one country exerting at least partial control over another. Charr leaders choosing to implement reforms, even if those reforms are inspired by or implemented with the assistance of outside parties, is not colonialism as long as the Charr leaders are still genuinely making their own decisions. It could be called foreign
influence,
and whether that's something to be considered undesirable is open for debate, but calling it colonialism cheapens the term.

In this entire patch, we are killing Charr soldiers on the other side. We are not going after Bangar, we are not preparing the defenses for Jormag, we are not taking a neutral stance. What part of this does not seem like colonialism? If anything our actions are further weakening the Charr. We are not just an outside influence. We are the commander of the pact who has an elder dragon and an army. If anything, our actions in this episode validate Bangar's quest to get a dragon of his own.

We also are not talking about exposing the Charr to other cultures. We are talking about redefining the Charr. The strongest leader wins. If Crecia and the other Imperators can take over and change the Charr WITHOUT the commander's help, then I have no problem with it because it is basically a tenet of Charr society that the strong prevail.

And if we don't intervene, Jormag wins.

If anything, we're helping the legitimate government (well, three-quarters of it) drive off an attempt at colonialism. We're not the colonial power, we're enforcing a Monroe Doctrine against an Elder Dragon. Let's also keep in mind that Bangar has invaded a non-charr region (the Mysterious Journal makes it clear the region was previously inhabited by tengu, humans, and norn) and has expressed plans to establish "a charr dominion that will extend from the Shiverpeaks to Cantha" - the very fact that the fighting is happening on the western side of the mountains implies that if Bangar wins, he's probably going to sweep down into Kryta. Which makes it a potential Krytan problem even if the Krytans didn't want to "repay the favour" (was it colonialism when the charr joined the fighting in Lake Doric?). I'm pretty confident at this stage that the next chapter will be south of the current one as the Frost Legion pushes south and even the headquarters at Umbral Grotto need to be evacuated.

It's also very clear through the episode that the ultimate objective is to get to Bangar. However, since we can't just portal directly to his location, and it's pretty clear his army is an invading force, we have to fight his troops in the meantime.

You could call it foreign interference. You could call it a Cold War-esque proxy war between Jormag and Aurene. But these are different things to colonialism. We are not attempting to exert control over the Imperators (well, apart from Smodur, and in that case it's because Malice and Efram are also trying to make him less of a loose cannon). The legitimate charr government is making the decisions, and we're just providing support. We're acting as allies in support of the legitimate government against a coup backed by a foreign power that is trying to exert control over the charr.

Plus, it was Bangar who got us involved. The whole reason we were invited to the party in the first place was probably so Bangar could set up an opportunity to steal Braham's bow.

As for the whole "we have an Elder Dragon" thing: I meant to say this in the previous post, but forgot. It is an important plot point in previous episodes that we cannot just sic Aurene on our enemies. Despite what Bangar thinks, she has her own mind, and would probably refuse even if the Commander asked. Like the Pact as a whole (note that while there are individuals who are part of the Pact getting involved, there is no overt Vigil, Priory, or Whispers presence on the ground?), Aurene won't get involved until it is clearly a dragon-related matter.

@"Jokubas.4265" said:But that makes future events even more baffling to me. So Smodur ruins the plan and betrays everyone else, and then they save him. Why? Why would they save him? Not only does everyone else hate him at this point, but he himself now proved to be a traitor. I mean, the other characters have shown a tendency to want to redeem their traitors, but letting Ryland get his revenge might have been a way to salvage the plan, and in exchange you get to remove this dangerously rogue element from your own side. I mean, seriously, at this point, no one can trust Smodur. He's significantly more dangerous than Bangar's forces, because Bangar's at least open about being our enemy and isn't in our midst.

I think Crecia was acting largely on instinct there. She didn't have time to think it through - she saw the enemy she was parlaying with suddenly jump at an ally (however questionable) and didn't have time to think, just act.

It's entirely likely that she realised that maybe she should have let Ryland kill Smodur a second after she lost the opportunity. There's a distinct "I'm not sure I just did the right thing" look on her face in the cutscene.

I want a chapter where we care less about Bangar specifically, and let the Flame Legion shame the rest of the Charr for not really being any better. I mean, who cares if we stop Bangar from getting an Elder Dragon on his side if any Charr leader (like Smodur) is going to want to go to war and go to any lengths to fight it?

Gotta admit, I was thinking myself "I think I'd say I'm team Efram on this one."

@Revolution.5409 said:Just to make a guess, in the end the Commander's approach may turn out to be too forgiving and bring Jormag to awakening.

Heck, consider how things might have been different if Rytlock had killed Bangar when the latter dared him to.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:I'm pretty confident at this stage that the next chapter will be south of the current one as the Frost Legion pushes south and even the headquarters at Umbral Grotto need to be evacuated.North according to the Shaman, and the massive bridge on the map that obviously goes somewhere. The bridge is just like the door in the mountains in Bjora from episode 1.

Its been stated that Bangar is going north to try to waken Jormag. Ryland and the forces he is commanding are likely just there to stall us. While we got ambushed by Frost Legion forces at the Bridge the end of this release, we also still canonally hold all the territory. If anything, I suspect Ryland will go north to meet up with Bangar, having delayed us a sufficient amount of time already.

I would suspect we go north to find Ryland/Bangar, have some big fight at some ice fortress of doom, the Charr Civil War conflict is ended(not that Bangar or Ryland are dead mind you), and then the rest of the season is us still chasing down Banger, he wakes up Jomarg, we do something to remove Jormag as a problem(either we kill it or something) and then maybe we get some sort of tease to lead into the Cantha plot.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Present-day Mongols aren't conquerors.No they got beaten back by the much stronger Chinese Quing dynasty. No nation survived by being weak.

Circumstances have changed dramatically. The charr are experiencing a similar shift, and Rytlock is among the first to start questioning the way his culture does things.Ah yes poor Rytlock who went from being a bad ass into a wimp who always talks about the past. Poor victimized Rytlock. Great character arc!

This doesn't mean he's going to go out and buy a baseball mitt and play catch with his cubs--but it does mean he's no longer shunning his impulse to be more involved in their lives.Rylock taking the kids to the park everyone. Yay!

Historically, charr haven't been allowed to invest much in their young; that doesn't mean they wouldn't.Yet they manage to reclaim their land and be one of the stronger civs. They must be doing something right.

Not everyone would agree with him, though. Bangar certainly wouldn't--because Rytlock's way of thinking is a threat to his authority.Ofc we just kill all the Char that disagree with Rytlock while claiming the higher moral ground.

Again: Sociological, not biological. These things aren't fixed. They can and do change.Yes I am sure the sharp claws, the muscular build are all social and none of it given them an advantage at war. The Charr do not like like herbivores. They are made to look like predators. They are imposing. I guess we will declaw them.

You could make an MMO where all the cultures are based on chimpanzees or dolphins or ravens -- which are some of the most intelligent animals on our planet -- but without nuance or a human spin on them, it's probably not going to be very interesting.

There is no nuance with what they are trying to do with the Charr. GW2 is trying to achieve what WoW has with the Orcs. The difference is that WoW had years to tell a good and believable story. GW2 is rushing things out and everything seems forced and fake. Right now I do not see the Charr as being monstrous. There is no genuine compulsion for the Charr to change. They make a stereotypical villain like Banger and think that is enough justification? It seems to me like the plot needed a villain and the villain is the driving force for change here and not the plot.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Revolution.5409 said:Just to make a guess, in the end the Commander's approach may turn out to be too forgiving and bring Jormag to awakening.

Heck, consider how things might have been different if Rytlock had killed Bangar when the latter dared him to.

History would probably have had more interesting developments.So far we have seen nothing but Crecia's attempts to bring Ryland back, but the actions of the latter from my point of view cannot be forgiven, this character is as responsible as Bangar for what is happening.

I was wondering, but do other Emperors know that Ryland is the son of Crecia? And especially if Ryland had been on our side, would Crecia have chosen a diplomatic approach anyway? Or this is dictated by wanting to save Ryland.

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@Kalavier.1097 said:

Because Bangar is NOT present on the battlefield, and is infact, beyond Wolf's Crossing, which the Legions are trying to secure. The whole point of the two-lane push is to be able to actually get to Bangar.

You certainly help my point that the story is bad. You say we don't have an army, so why aren't we building one to get ready for Bangar? Why aren't we interested where Aurene is? Are you telling me that the Char civil war took place faster than we can follow Bangar? Is the commander on a Snail mount that Bangar manages to venture further north, recruit the Charr, turn them into icebrood and have the Charr return back to fight the war? The commander seems to be getting old!

If Crecia and the other Imperators win, they will be changing the Charr. I highly doubt the Commander would have any say in the deep process of rebuilding their culture. For example, look at Elona. Did the commander have ANY part in the restructuring of those nations after Joko? Nope. And they peacefully split into three groups, reorganized their society and started to rebuild.

I don't even care or remember what took place in Elona because there was no need to care. All the story told me was Joko bad, kill him and there will be peace and no infighting. Yup sounds believable. Sounds like they want to make GW2 a bedtime story where everyone lives happily ever after.

Actually, if Charr PC you've met the Cache Keepers. They are Charr PC warband recruits who have defected. The Charr under the Dominion also advocate that other races should be subjected or killed off, so they have presented themselves as a clear threat. They also believe they can actually get a dragon to obey them.

So why is it a war crime to kill them? A good story would make the argument that having a softer approach to war might lead to losing the war and that the war should be won by any means necessary. That would make Smodur's reasoning compelling, But the story does not present that side at all. I remember in the Witcher 2 there was an elven woman being beaten by guards, on intervention the guards tell me that the woman is a rebel and a radical. I have a choice to make. Either save the woman or join the guards. On killing the guards, the woman leads me to a waterfall where she tries to kill me. Now that is a good story. It is not simply be Crecia good and Smodur bad.

Of course, there is a very, very big difference here. One is walking up to a supply depot, dropping an extremely powerful bomb inside, and then finding out everybody inside was non-combatant researchers instead of crates of guns being the only thing there. The other is fighting a soldier face to face on the battlefield and killing them as they are trying to kill you.

I would rather take out researchers. The nuclear bomb, chemical weapons, biological weapons were all created by researchers. Researchers have killed more people than soldiers ever did.

Here's the reason it's called a war crime. A: everybody was tricked into doing it. B: It was a searing crystal used against non-combatants. And Searing crystals carry a very dark history for the Flame Legion. Flame Legion is reforming and dragging itself back from it's evil history, and the searing is one of the biggest stains on their record. They don't want those things coming back into use.

Yes yes I know Smodur is bad and Crecia good.

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I will say that one of the most disappointing things about the story in this episode is that (if you are a charr) you find out that one of your own warband has betrayed you to join Bangar. In the same episode that stresses the importance of loyalty to one's warband, a charr character will inevitably find out that one of their own has betrayed their warband.

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@Tazer.2157 said:There is no nuance with what they are trying to do with the Charr. GW2 is trying to achieve what WoW has with the Orcs. The difference is that WoW had years to tell a good and believable story. GW2 is rushing things out and everything seems forced and fake. Right now I do not see the Charr as being monstrous. There is no genuine compulsion for the Charr to change. They make a stereotypical villain like Banger and think that is enough justification? It seems to me like the plot needed a villain and the villain is the driving force for change here and not the plot.

The difference is WoW eternally has the Orcs apologizing and pretending to reform then instantly going back to "YAY WAR KILL THEM ALL" the moment they get a chance. As once noted by somebody about Battle for Azeroth, it's not that the horde is evil, it's not that majority of the horde (and the main majority of orcs) leapt at the chance for warfare and genocide. And at the end they do a "I'm sorry" and it's all swept under the rug.

The problems of the Charr? I've never felt anybody sweeps them under the rug and acts as if nothing happened.

GW2 Charr are, and IMO will always be far better then WoW orcs in writing. You claim there is no "genuine compulsion for Charr to change" and yet we see in these very episodes how Charr culture and society is being rocked to it's core elements.

@"Genesis.8572" said:I will say that one of the most disappointing things about the story in this episode is that (if you are a charr) you find out that one of your own warband has betrayed you to join Bangar. In the same episode that stresses the importance of loyalty to one's warband, a charr character will inevitably find out that one of their own has betrayed their warband.

To me this just shows how deeply the wounds of this civil war are. Charr are raised to place the Warband above the self, and the Legion above their warband. Now we have warbands split apart because they went to Bangar or stayed with the legions.

I don't think this Episode stresses "loyalty to the warband", but instead points out how it's a drive particularly important to Ryland, and how that is a weakness to be used to force him to the parley table again.

@Tazer.2157 said:

@"Kalavier.1097" said:

Because Bangar is NOT present on the battlefield, and is infact, beyond Wolf's Crossing, which the Legions are trying to secure. The whole point of the two-lane push is to be able to actually get to Bangar.

You certainly help my point that the story is bad. You say we don't have an army, so why aren't we building one to get ready for Bangar? Why aren't we interested where Aurene is? Are you telling me that the Char civil war took place faster than we can follow Bangar? Is the commander on a Snail mount that Bangar manages to venture further north, recruit the Charr, turn them into icebrood and have the Charr return back to fight the war? The commander seems to be getting old!

A: The Commander does not have an army of their own. We are helping the forces of the Legions, and the Seraph. I thought the distinction was obvious. The Commander cannot clap their hands and go "Army, charge." because we do not personally have a military force. We've helped lead and advise groups in the past, the Pact in HoT (before we formally left it), and the Alliance against Kralkatorrik, but we do not have an army of our own.B: Aurene is in the eye of the North. Don't you remember how in after Bangar stole credit of killing Drakkar she explicitly stated she has to sit this one out or they'll simply feed the narrative Bangar is pushing, causing even more masses of charr to defect? Aurene is not a tactical weapon or a nuke to drop on the enemy whenever we want. She's an elder dragon who we are a champion of. If anything, she tells us what places need our help then the other way around.C: Bangar had been sowing seeds of this stuff for years now, he was always in charge of the Renegade Charr around Ebonhawke. He then took credit for killing Drakkar, fueling his Narrative to the massives. Hell, Aurene's bombing of the branded siege devourer at the "All Legion Rally" helped him because he could point at the Commander and act as if the Commander controlled Aurene, able to call her in at a moments notice to destroy targets.D: The Charr legions were suffereing Morale loss as well as a string of defeats on the battlefield. Defections continued to happen up until and after the cease-fire meeting at the start of the Episode. The Commander was recovering from a magical flaming arrow through the chest while Bangar and the legions went to war against each other. He instantly deployed Ryland and his army to act as a buffer while he went off to complete his objectives.

If Crecia and the other Imperators win, they will be changing the Charr. I highly doubt the Commander would have any say in the deep process of rebuilding their culture. For example, look at Elona. Did the commander have ANY part in the restructuring of those nations after Joko? Nope. And they peacefully split into three groups, reorganized their society and started to rebuild.

I don't even care or remember what took place in Elona because there was no need to care. All the story told me was Joko bad, kill him and there will be peace and no infighting. Yup sounds believable. Sounds like they want to make GW2 a bedtime story where everyone lives happily ever after.

Besides the infighting that happened and threatened to tear everything apart until we killed the radicalized Joko followers and Kralkatorrik proved that everybody needed to stop petty squabbling.

It sounds more like you just blitz through the episodes and don't pay attention to a single thing, then complain about how "awful" the writing is.

Actually, if Charr PC you've met the Cache Keepers. They are Charr PC warband recruits who have defected. The Charr under the Dominion also advocate that other races should be subjected or killed off, so they have presented themselves as a clear threat. They also believe they can actually get a dragon to obey them.

So why is it a war crime to kill them? A good story would make the argument that having a softer approach to war might lead to losing the war and that the war should be won by any means necessary. That would make Smodur's reasoning compelling, But the story does not present that side at all. I remember in the Witcher 2 there was an elven woman being beaten by guards, on intervention the guards tell me that the woman is a rebel and a radical. I have a choice to make. Either save the woman or join the guards. On killing the guards, the woman leads me to a waterfall where she tries to kill me. Now that is a good story. It is not simply be Crecia good and Smodur bad.

It's not a war crime to kill enemy soldiers on the battlefield as they are trying to kill you. You were trying to push that "WE never met them" and if you are a Charr PC, then yes, you have met some of those Charr on the other side. Smodur's approach is extreme, but he doesn't want to waste guards on jail cells that may be convinced to defect and he wants the war over ASAP.

Crecia wants the war over and Ryland saved. She messes up in both aspects and fails in the end. Smodur wants the war over, whatever the cost. He alienates his allies and drives the only peaceful solution away, possibly making the war worse.

Of course, there is a very, very big difference here. One is walking up to a supply depot, dropping an extremely powerful bomb inside, and then finding out everybody inside was non-combatant researchers instead of crates of guns being the only thing there. The other is fighting a soldier face to face on the battlefield and killing them as they are trying to kill you.

I would rather take out researchers. The nuclear bomb, chemical weapons, biological weapons were all created by researchers. Researchers have killed more people than soldiers ever did.

Again, there is a difference between killing a soldier on the battlefield who is trying to kill you, and busting into a lab and gunning down a bunch of researchers who have no weapons.

Here's the reason it's called a war crime. A: everybody was tricked into doing it. B: It was a searing crystal used against non-combatants. And Searing crystals carry a very dark history for the Flame Legion. Flame Legion is reforming and dragging itself back from it's evil history, and the searing is one of the biggest stains on their record. They don't want those things coming back into use.

Yes yes I know Smodur is bad and Crecia good.

Yes Yes I know you are fixated in your opinion and don't care at all about any other viewpoints. Smodur has valid concerns but he thinks himself Khan-Ur and starts ignoring the suggestions of his fellow Imperators or launching attacks on his own. Crecia is torn between saving her people, and saving Ryland, and ultimately fails at both due to this tear.

Neither is perfect, and neither is entirely wrong.

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@"Randulf.7614" said:Smodur acted exactly as I expect a Charr war leader to act.

I can see why people think Jormag is influencing him, but with Drakkar gone I am not sure that is possible anymore.

While Drakkar was a known conduit for the whispers, it may not necessarily be the only whisperer infused with Jormag's avatar. For all we know, Jormag may have planted multiple whisper avatars into various hosts over the centuries or after the latest dragonrise until Taimi's Machine forced it back into hibernation. We certainly saw something similar with the Dragonspawn in Edge of Destiny as it used its mesmeric magic and persuasive whispers to nearly turn Eir, Snaff and Zojja to its side until Garm resisted its mental probing (as he stubbornly viewed Eir as his only alpha and thus could not be swayed by the Dragonspawn's temptations; Garm is such a hero, and I hope he gets to play a bigger part in the saga and show that even Jormag can't tempt his resilient mind unless Jormag really finds something emotional to tempt him with such as revealing that the rest of Garm's dire wolf pack may in fact still be alive somewhere) and brought the rest of the team to their senses. Even if only one Whisper of Jormag avatar can exist at a time rather than many of them, who knows if another such whisper can't manifest and take over a new host, whether that host ends up being Bangar or someone else.

What's also interesting regarding whether Jormag's whispers might still be spreading is that we hear a fascinating "blink and you'll miss it" ambient dialogue (which doesn't get recorded in chat box; ANet, please consider "fixing" this because Western Bjora Marches ambient dialogues were great as they were all recorded in chat box to be read at one's leisure). It takes place between an Iron Legion charr and a Seraph in the eastern part of Fort Defiance outpost (once it's been taken over by our allies) near the fortifications where the charr reveals something troubling:

Iron Legion Marksman: Sometimes, when I'm out standing guard at night, I swear I hear her voice.

Seraph Guard: Huh? Whose voice?

Iron Legion Marksman: What? Nothing. Just thinking out loud...

To me this brief dialogue suggests that "her" voice does not belong to whoever the charr thinks it does, but it is in fact a continuation of the seductive whispers that tempted so many Vigil in Eastern Bjora.

Like Konig noted, Smodur does repeat the "no traitors needed" creed in various guises, which gives me flashbacks of Bangar's repeating use of certain paranoid phrases in earlier episodes. Both charr imperators may already be compromised by Jormag's seductive whispers (which bring forth their own insecurities and desires that already exist deep within said charr's psyches) without them realizing that they're being played. Bangar seems to have caught on to the whispers somewhat based on his dialogue in "Voice in the Deep" in Ep2, but Smodur may still be oblivious to the true mental threat that Jormag poses as the dragon's suggestive thoughts become your thoughts and "persuade" you to act in certain ways that benefit the dragon's agenda.

Of course, if this does foreshadow Jormag's growing influence in Woodland Cascades, it can mean one or many of the following things:

1) A successor to Drakkar has arisen by now to take over as a new conduit/host for Jormag's avatar to spread the whispers. This new host may or may not be Bangar based on the fact that a lot of Dominion have already been corrupted into Frost Legion, and Bangar should be aware of this fact to some extent unless Jormag is somehow deliberately keeping him in the dark about his own forces' fall to corruption.

2) Drizzlewood Coast may be very near to Jormag's current "lair" so Jormag won't need a special host to spread whispers to such a location that is close by. This may be supported by Varinia Stormsounder (Minister of Morale) turning into an Icebrood champion between the first parley in Umbral Grotto and the ambush at the bridge; the entire Battle of Drizzlewood Coast couldn't have lasted more than a few days or a week at most lorewise based on how quickly stuff happened and led to the following story steps. Then again, we don't yet know if Jormag's whispers or something else (another champion?) corrupted the Frost Legion, but my bet would be on Jormag itself given the huge number of converted charr that no single Icebrood champion could corrupt so quickly. Based on Varinia's parley dialogue hinting that she was already aware of the Frost Legion to some extent (and which she refers back to during the battle against her), it suggests that these charr have been converted over time, and the non-corrupted Dominion seem to be totally okay undergoing the transformation as they believe it helps them evolve and become stronger.

3) Bangar may have already done something to make Jormag awaken, and thus Jormag may not even need a conduit for the whispers anymore if it's fully awake to spread its corruption with the potential assistance of Mordremoth's Mind magic that it may possess.

I sincerely hope that Smodur's somewhat "off" actions in this episode can be explained by Jormag subtly manipulating him with whispers and manifesting his innermost desires and fears in a harmful way.

Smodur has always been very friendly with Rytlock (possibly because he may be aware of the special relationship between Rytlock and Bangar) until this episode (see e.g. their interactions in Season 2 and Smodur comforting Rox about Rytlock when the three of them tried the Foefire cleansing ritual with the Commander's help during the "Plan of Attack" instance). He was certainly respectful of the charr Commander too once the charr Commander proved themself during the charr personal story chapters (e.g. the two of them fighting side by side during the Flame Legion's invasion of the Black Citadel in "Tribunes in Effigy"):

Smodur the Unflinching: The Black Citadel owes you. Your sire might've redeemed himself on his own, but the High Legions triumphed because of you.

One could argue that such praise is just Smodur's way of manipulating the then-Legionnaire player to view him favorably as a trustworthy ally. He says the same regardless of if you're Ash, Blood or Iron, and his sentiment nevertheless seems genuine. Smodur respects people who both use their wits and get stuff done. Yet in No Quarter he acts in an almost hostile manner towards the Commander, withholding information from them and even belittling Rytlock as being dumb when in Season 2 he had praised Rytlock's resourcefulness. Rytlock, likewise, acted weirdly that he even resorted to calling Smodur a bastard when he had always been on friendly terms with him...at least whenever we've seen them interact. If there's always been some hidden animosity there all along, I hope the story explores this more in the future to explain Rytlock and Smodur's change of heart towards the other.

Smodur's concerns that were raised in "The World Summit" instance in Season 2 also painted him as a rather meticulous leader who thought about war from many angles and to reduce loss of life by not partaking in too many wars at once. His responses to the Commander during that instance was particularly illuminating in showing how forward-thinking he was. Yet in No Quarter he kills a defenseless prisoner when we know that the only time an execution of a surrendered combatant/helpless prisoner is deemed "okay" among the charr is in a proper execution by a firing squad or in an honorable duel to the death in an arena as seen if we fight our sire Vallus Smokemane in one of the story branches, or if the surrendered charr shows weakness that disgusts the winning charr as seen with Pyre Fierceshot executing the begging Flame Legion prisoner during Eye of the North.

While some individual charr grunts have slipped from that creed from time to time, Smodur as an imperator should know better, especially because his actions were against the interests of the rest of his allies at the time. If he wanted Cinder and Ryland gone eventually, he could've at least waited to see a resolution to the parley and maybe kill the two later on the United Legions turf rather than jeopardizing what could've potentially ended the current conflict in a location where his allies were vulnerable to enemy ambush. Tactically acting such way makes little sense too; not only should most of the imperators not agree to gather in one place to meet Ryland because Ryland could've set the lair to collapse and kill the entire legion leadership in one stroke, but Smodur didn't even bother having enough soldiers accompany him to cover both exits just in case Ryland tried to escape or summon reinforcements.

The ultimate nail is Smodur deliberately manipulating the Flame Legion to set the stage for recreating a searing crystal when he could've easily just used some new prototype grenade for the job (his engineers certainly have the knowledge to build such). Not only did he keep the Commander and Rytlock in the dark, but he also caused a serious issue between him and Efram. Instead, he should've used the opportunity of Bangar's absence to win Efram to his side; even if Smodur personally hated all Flame Legion, he should see the political opportunity to earn the gratitude of Efram's faction by saving their cubs from Bangar's ilk and offering them sanctuary if they swear their allegiance to him, the progressive visionary who'd be publicly happy to set past grievances aside, instead of Bangar. But thanks to his shady decisions, he's lost Efram's support...likely forever.

While we know from lore that Smodur tore out his own eye to intimidate an opponent once (I wonder if that opponent was Gaheron or someone else) and that Scott McGough's TowerTalk interview mentioned that Smodur has always been an opportunist and populist to some degree (he agreed to the Ebonhawke Treaty proposal for selfish reasons to promote his status as the undisputed leader of Ascalon, strengthened his claim for Khan-Ur via accepting the Claw, and established trade between him and humans which would stop a more costly war but also gain rich trade partners that he can milk dry by selling his weapons to them), he isn't someone who jeopardizes deals already made because those affect his reputation as a competent leader. Like Smodur says in "A Race to Arms" instance in the prologue when talking about whether the Ebonhawke Treaty with humans is in jeopardy: "Deals I broker don't fail." However, he has just broken the most important deal: a trustworthy alliance between his fellow imperators and allies as well as losing more and more support from his own troops.

The recent guild chat was very illuminating about Smodur although it also seems to suggest that Smodur's actions may not necessarily be driven by Jormag unless the devs want to keep it a secret for a future twist (see the quoted ambient dialogue about "her voice" above). I'd prefer some Jormag influence even if the dragon's whispers only bring forth the worst aspects of Smodur's personality: that despite his great public image and genuine concern for a commercial charr future, deep down he's the same savage who tore out his own eye and who can never forgive those who betray his trust or who he deems a threat to his ambitious plans.

Wherever Smodur's story ends up going, I'm intrigued to watch how the writers tell his tale. I hope he's given his due time in the narrative and he gets fleshed out if he must go down this dark path and lose everything he's worked so hard to build up. I'd hate for him to be painted as a villain in the end; if that must be his fate, I hope there's a dose of tragedy added into it to show the fall of a once progressive if populist visionary falling prey to the charr's suggested "true" nature as predatory warmongerers that Jormag seems to view them as. If Jormag did end up contributing to Smodur's downfall in some way by bringing forth Smodur's "true" nature from behind the facade of a popular politician, there's one more reason for my character's bucket list to kick Jormag's tail hard when the time for the confrontation comes. :)

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:As has been said, the Charr have always had enemies... but what do they do once they don't? They turn on themselves. The ghosts aren't a major problem anymore, the Flame Legion has been defeated, and re-assimilated, there is peace with the humans, and three of the Elder Dragons are dead, including the one that was giving them the most trouble. And now, left absent a major enemy, the Charr society begins its collapse in on itself via infighting.

I'd disagree with the idea that charr have no threats left even if the developers themselves seem to support your idea. My reasoning is this based on lore:

1) Ascalonian/Foefire ghosts

While Rytlock's ritual in Season 2 was partly successful, it only really weakened the ghosts at Barradin's tomb and not the Foefire ghosts at large. Adelbern has been defeated a few times even before Ascalonian Catacombs story, but he always reformed and returned to continue his plans.

What's also significant is that Tom Abernathy has teased that Aurene may not have been able to contain all of Kralkatorrik's magic upon her ascension and thus some of it spread into the world. We already have proof that at least Jormag was affected by this as the journals in Western Bjora Marches discuss how Drakkar's whispers grew louder after each Elder Dragon's death until Kralkatorrik's demise made them unbearable. We also see volatile ley-crazed Icebrood champions in Asgeir's Legacy, which shows that the magic Balthazar's demise introduced to the environment (as seen in Elona) has affected beings as far north as there.

Looking at the probes Scarlet planted on notable ley line routes and the place of Kralkatorrik's demise on top of a significant ley line nexus, it stands to reason that some of the magic (the bits that Aurene couldn't absorb) heading north via ley lines from Dragonfall must have passed Ascalon on the way to Jormag and Drakkar in the Far Shiverpeaks. As we've seen ghosts going crazy when absorbing excess magic (see e.g. the bounties at the Desolation), it stands to reason that Adelbern, Barradin and the remaining Foefire ghosts should've received a significant power boost too and should arise and become a major threat eventually with their newfound strength. Imagine a sorcerer-king of Adelbern's caliber becoming even more powerful if he can actually control all that new magic...and even if he can't, he'll now be even more unhinged than before with the power to actually turn himself into a bigger menace this time around.

It would be logical that Adelbern eventually delivers on his promise from Ghosts of Ascalon novel to invade the surface world with a massive ghost army with likely new abilities spawned by magic derived from Kralkatorrik, Balthazar etc. This would necessitate a return to the Heir of Ascalon and the Krytan royal locket plot to find the heir ASAP, as well as use King Adelbern's crown, Magdaer and Sohothin to end the Foefire curse and release Adelbern and his spectral ilk from their madness. Given Logan's comments during Season 2, Rytlock may have misunderstood what is needed to end the curse; perhaps the ritual needs the two swords and the crown plus heir and wielders to succeed, so we could see Logan wielding Magdaer to represent Ascalon's human past, Rytlock wielding Sohothin to represent Ascalon's charr present, and the heir wearing the crown to represent Ascalon's future with a truly harmonious coexistence between charr and humans.

I'd love to actually see Rurik and Althea appear in such a storyline and convince the cleansed Adelbern and Barradin to aid us in the battle against Jormag's forces, and maybe see Adelbern and Barradin sacrifice themselves in a heroic last stand to save the remaining charr from ruin from Jormag's massive invasion, thus redeeming themselves while allowing Rurik and Althea to lead the remaining ghosts to a well deserved rest in the afterlife as they bless the heir as their successor. The heir would then acknowledge the charr's presence and a true end to hostilities between man and charr, perhaps even turn Ebonhawke truly independent from Kryta, and usher in an age of enlightenment while persuading the Separatists to turn into Royalists to support the heir in the now peaceful endeavors so some of the Separatists can be redeemed as well.

2) Flame Legion

In the Bound by Blood prologue, Efram specifically states that he only leads those from the Flame Legion who sought peace, so most of Flame Legion still remains at large and is not assimilated into either Bangar's Dominion or the United Legions. This suggests that there should be more factions out there who refused to see reason and continue being a threat. Given how the Iron Legion has at least six tribunes, the Flame Legion should have approximately the same number too. Even if the two slain tribunes from core Tyria were never replaced, that'd still leave us with at least four remaining evil Flame tribunes and possibly a new Hierophant to replace the late Improaster as I can't see Efram ascending to become the new Hierophant before he became the would-be Imperator.

The Flame splinter groups would oppose Efram's ambitions but also each other; we could see one faction being shaman zealots led by Crecia's high-ranking but so far unseen shaman sire (who was referred to in the prologue), one could be a counterintelligence faction full of Flame stalkers (spies) reminiscent of the famous Fireshadows of old, and a third faction could be all about brute force or actually being a faction of Godforged who are dedicated to trying to resurrect Gaheron again as they view every other would-be Flame imperator as pretenders to the vacant throne. Maybe the Godforged could even succeed for a time and bring Gaheron back for a neat cameo role for an episode, and he may hold knowledge about the Eternal Flame etc. that we need to help defeat Jormag. The fourth tribune could very well be the leader of the Molten Alliance, as Angel McCoy once stated in an interview that the leaders of the Molten and Toxic Alliances are still out there with identities unknown to us, so who knows if the Molten Alliance ever returns to haunt us alongside these Flame splinter groups (at least we got a shout-out to Molten Alliance during dialogue with the Flame shaman near Smodur's pavilion).

As recently as Season 2, Smodur mentioned that the Flame Legion were still a serious threat even without Gaheron to lead them. Given how busy he was fighting against ghosts, Branded, ogres, Separatists, Renegades etc. at the time, I've no doubt that the evil Flame splinter groups can return to threaten us later on if the writers ever choose to want to bring them back. I could see quite a few juicy plot possibilities here with potentially one evil Flame splinter group seemingly atoning and joining our side only to backstab us by later once they've used us to get rid of most of the competing factions' leadership so this "atoning" faction can try to assassinate the last candidate, Efram, and then install their own faction's leader as the de facto Flame Imperator. Bonus points if one of the high-ranking officers of this treacherous faction actually grew close to the Commander in a way Gavin did in the White Stag storyline for sylvari, and we'd see this officer genuinely conflicted about orders to kill the Commander and Efram while still being loyal to their tribune. I'd love to see some tearjerking moment of a friendly enemy who is torn between loyalties just like we are torn about whether to bring them down after they've proven themselves to be a great ally prior to the scene of their superior's inevitable betrayal.

3) Separatists

According to Malice, charr still have to deal with human threats. She mentions in the prologue that the Separatists have had a resurgence lately. I find this statement curious as the Separatists lost many of their notable leaders in core Tyria (e.g. Monique DeLana who died during Caudecus's Manor story mode), and their major backers from the White Mantle (e.g. Caudecus via his funding) were cut off after the White Mantle's collapse in Lake Doric. If the Separatists are becoming a threat again, it begs the question who their new charismatic leader is and where that leader is getting funding from since the defeat of the Mantle and their backers in the Ministry. We already see tensions rising between some Seraph and charr in Drizzlewood Coast in ambient dialogue (which is significant considering that the charr who view the humans only as temporary allies and potential enemies in the future are still the same charr who didn't defect to Bangar and remained loyal to the High Legions). Likewise, Marjory discussed how Logan and Kasmeer would attempt to keep the volatile human factions at bay as news of Bangar's rogue actions would add fuel to the Separatists' fire, so the animosity between charr and humans seems mutual even though we also see friendships forming between the two races (e.g. Logan and Efram's heartwarming banter and bonding during their assault events).

I wonder if the Separatists will play any part in the saga. I'd be happy to tie them to a potential future Heir of Ascalon and Foefire cleansing storyline (see the section about Adelbern and Foefire ghosts above) where the heir might be able to redeem them by turning them into new Royalists to honor that old faction from Ascalon's pre-Searing past except these new Royalists wouldn't be a threat but a supporting force for a new era between charr-human friendship if everything went well. If we ever run into the current Separatist leader, I want them to be a memorable antagonist who hopefully lasts longer than just one story instance as there's juicy plot potential for the mystery behind the Separatists' new rise and if it may tie into some bigger conspiracy (such as the necromantic Cult of Verata if it survived over the centuries and how it might tie into Marjory's backstory trying to investigate a case of macabre human sacrifices in DR with some unnamed minister being involved in such and perhaps even tie in Riot Alice's unresolved story about a potential conspiracy surrounding the events of the Great Collapse in DR).

4) Branded

While some believe that the Branded are more or less gone, I'd disagree with that notion. The Risen and Mordrem continue being a threat (even if a diminishing one) years after their dragon master's defeat. Their champions, while less threatening now, still continue spreading corruption in any way they can while the Pact and allies do their best to cull the minions' numbers.

Given how vast a horde Kralkatorrik created, I doubt that even Aurene's active flyovers and the Pact/legions' efforts were able to fully eradicate the Branded a year since Kralk's defeat. Some champions will still lurk out there for who knows how long and continue carrying out Kralk's last orders to the best of their abilities, refusing to stand down. They may not be as big a threat as they once were, but Sentinels will continue fighting the Branded to the unforeseeable future as far as I understand it based on the Unchained Risen/Mordrem lore.

5) Ogres

We know less about the situation with the ogres, but I'd be surprised if they weren't still causing some havoc here and there. Given how Bangar had apparently kept the majority of his forces in Blood Legion lands (as there were only two tribunes in Smodur's Ascalon rather than more Blood tribunes appearing there to help with the war effort), these forces must've been doing something since the end of hostilities with Ebonhawke. While some may have fought some ghosts here and there, maybe the rest of them focused on fighting against the ogres in the east? If so, the ogres should still continue to be somewhat of a threat (even if they might be arguably the least of these five threats the charr face) and thus no joking matter given how tenacious they can be when they pour down from the mountains.

What we are seeing now is the Charr's "Undiscovered Country" moment, where the Charr have to realize their entire civilization is fundamentally broken as is, and that things have to change if they want to survive. Crecia is basically the Charr's Gorkon, the leader who is willing to go against the norms to fix things, while Bangar and Smodur are the Charr's General Changs, the guys who want things to be the way they were, even if its obviously stupidly bad for them.

This is how I see it too. This "civil war" (I hesitate to use that term as technically the four legions are more like the hordes that formed after Genghis Khan's death and thus should be considered autonomous states) will definitely decide what path the charr will take and which ideology, if any, reigns supreme by the end. Perhaps the charr will wisen up and actually melt the Claw of the Khan-Ur for good to prevent any future temptations, and they may take a cue from the Olmakhan and establish their own Council of Five consisting of elders and/or respected figures within charr society rather than relying on bloodlines or legion identity per se. Time will tell where the Icebrood Saga takes them. I do hope that the legions at large get to interact with the Olmakhan beyond the teases we had in Season 4, though; I'd love to hear the current imperators' opinions on the Olmakhan, and a potential reconciliation between Efram and the Council of Five and if the Olmakhan can learn to forgive at least Efram's splinter group for the sins of the past. :)

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Imagine thinking that the Charr were ever even 1/4th as honorable as World of Warcraft orcs, or that their society was strong after going on a thousand year losing streak via infighting before only winning the land back by pledging themselves to a demonic dark god of their own will and desperation.

Imagine.

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@Loesh.4697 said:Imagine thinking that the Charr were ever even 1/4th as honorable as World of Warcraft orcs, or that their society was strong after going on a thousand year losing streak via infighting before only winning the land back by pledging themselves to a demonic dark god of their own will and desperation.

Imagine.

The charr are far more honorable then the Orcs will ever be in warcraft.

The charr don't lie about what they are. The orcs will act reformed but they've shown they will follow obviously evil, vicious leaders without real complaint from the majority. They've done so repeatedly.

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