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Isn't Smodur supposed to be the pragmatic one?


Diovid.9506

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Smodur REALLY wants to be Khan Ur. Allowing Ryland and his merry band of steel legion heroes save the day would only serve to boost Rylands support, so he does everything in his power to make sure he doesn't survive the war.

At least, that's the only reason I can think of. Why else would he hate steel so much?

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:After some thinking:

Smodur is pragmatic.War does not work? Try diplomacy.Diplomacy does not work? Go to war.Bangar is creating a new charr god? Fight him to stay free.Traitors are strenghtening the opposition and might wipe you out? Kill them - to contain the threat and send a strong message to those who are thinking about treason.

He stayed true to himself tbh and acts like I would expect from the imperator of Iron Legion.

I 100% agree, and I think a lot of people who are interested in Tyrian lore feel the same way.

I think most of us are actually not shocked or particularly surprised that Smodur is doing what he's doing. What we're not pleased with, however, is how the writing seems to want us to be shocked/surprised/betrayed. It's dumb.

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I'm not questioning his pragmatism, but I seriously question his sudden callousness. There is a huge element of it during the second negociation with Ryland that just makes no sense. And one can visibly see it on his face as he does the deed : That to me, is out of character. Doing that during negociations -just- to anger the opposite party makes very little sense from a pragmatic standpoint, especially when the opposite party is about to concede. He did it to prolong the bloodshed, not end it. As if Killing more of his opponents will results in him getting more glory. He is a glory seeker yes, but Smodur is Way smarter than this. This, I expect of a Blood Legion imperator. Iron Legion rewards ingenuity.

I think this is a story tool, in order to give more credence to Efram, and make him appear as the more humane Charr of all imperators, with the added twist that he isn't one, but with the expectation that he -should- be.

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@"Westenev.5289" said:Smodur REALLY wants to be Khan Ur. Allowing Ryland and his merry band of steel legion heroes save the day would only serve to boost Rylands support, so he does everything in his power to make sure he doesn't survive the war.

At least, that's the only reason I can think of. Why else would he hate steel so much?

Throughout the episode he repeats many times "we don't need traitors".The episode begins with Smodur executing Iron Legion defectors, the Charr in the lab are also Iron Legion defector soldiers.I think Smodur feels betrayed by his own soldiers for this he has assumed this attitude, it would be too obvious to want to become Khan-ur.

I don't think Smodur hates Stellwarband, I think he considers enemies, if we add that they are loyal to Bangar, they are the cause of the civil war, they have eliminated all the Charr who opposed them, Ryland has not stopped Bangar from killing Almorra , I think there are quite a few reasons. XD

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@Revolution.5409 said:The episode begins with Smodur executing Iron Legion defectors, the Charr in the lab are also Iron Legion defector soldiers.I think Smodur feels betrayed by his own soldiers for this he has assumed this attitude, it would be too obvious to want to become Khan-ur.Ryland's not his own soldier. He is from Bangar's legion. If anything, he is less of a traitor than all the Blood Legion charr under Crecia.

I don't think Smodur hates Stellwarband, I think he considers enemies, if we add that they are loyal to Bangar, they are the cause of the civil war, they have eliminated all the Charr who opposed them, Ryland has not stopped Bangar from killing Almorra , I think there are quite a few reasons. XDAnd yet he had absolutely no problem with negotiating with Flame Legion. Even then, it wasn't a war to the death. So, why this one is?

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Revolution.5409" said:The episode begins with Smodur executing Iron Legion defectors, the Charr in the lab are also Iron Legion defector soldiers.I think Smodur feels betrayed by his own soldiers for this he has assumed this attitude, it would be too obvious to want to become Khan-ur.Ryland's
not
his own soldier. He is from
Bangar's
legion. If anything, he is less of a traitor than all the Blood Legion charr under Crecia.

I don't think Smodur hates Stellwarband, I think he considers enemies, if we add that they are loyal to Bangar, they are the cause of the civil war, they have eliminated all the Charr who opposed them, Ryland has not stopped Bangar from killing Almorra , I think there are quite a few reasons. XDAnd yet he had absolutely no problem with negotiating with
Flame Legion
. Even then, it wasn't a war to the death. So, why this one is?

No he is not a soldier of his but he is one of the main antagonists for the Charr legions in this war, many iron legion soldiers have betrayed Smodur to side with Ryland, and this is mentioned by Ryland himself at the beginning of the chapter, Smodur has not really no reason to want it alive i would say for him it is the cause of the problem.

Do you mean negotiations with Efram?https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Efram_Greetsglory"Efram Greetsglory eventually became the leader of a more progressive splinter group which desired a cease-fire with the other High Legions."

Efram is not Emperor of the whole Flame Legion but only of a part, I would say that the reason is this.

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Having finished the episode twice now I'm sticking with my original assessment: Smodur sees the Kahn-Ur position as Him vs Bangar and Bangar's forces need to be wiped out before he can do that (Total surrender to him is the only option Bangar is accepting so diplomacy is off the table in his eyes) The other NPCs called Smodur out on how he is acting as if this civil war is just the next step in his path to the top several times so his motivations are obvious.

Smodur is a politician and that means wanting power by any means necessary even if it results in becoming the king of an ash pile. His portrayal is fine if infuriating.

And that leads to the actual characterization flaw in the episode: How passive The Commander is about all of it. Effram should have been stopping us from tearing out Smodur's throat over the grenade, not the other way around.

edited for proper spelling

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The only thing I didnt like is how the writting team seems to kind of trying to make me see Smodur as some kind of monster, when to me, he is the only one that is acting according to the situation and everyone else is living in this make believe world of flowers and rainbows...Ryland and his warband are traitors and war criminals for allying thenselfs to Bangar, theres no diference between them and the thousands of hundreds of Svanir, Inquest, Flame Legion, etc that we slaughtered till here without shedding a single tear or asking ourselfs if there was other way...wow, he is the son of Rytlock, great, I dont care, cause of him countless of innocents died.

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I'll just make one comment here, about the Pact Commander Vs. Bangar or any of his lackeys like Ryland. If the Pact Commander is from the Vigil, than the Dominion has a very personal beef with you, as you're the one who derailed the Renegades and killed Ajax, Bangar's son, under Almora's orders to do so (this is part of why Bangar killed Almora, too, as they bicker about it in that episode).

They just can't bring this up because not all players are Vigil. But the Pact Commander isn't some neutral third party, & they have alot more reason to trust Smodur (despite how he is acting) than anyone from Bangar's Dominion.

Pragmatic is one thing, but I don't think people are understanding all the history here. Even if we were somehow to negotiate with Bangar's leiutenants, all of the variables on the table such as Aurene and the events from the Vigil story wouldn't just magically be off the table, Crecia (and to some extent Rytlock) are hoping for something that's just likely impossible.

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Progressive != Pragmatic

Take note of the difference.

On top of that, well, I'll just quote myself from elsewhere on this topic:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Although Smodur is established as a progressive charr, the situation we're in now is vastly different than at launch. At launch, charr had enemies on all sides - Flame Legion, ghosts, branded, ogres, and humans - and this was the public reason why Malice and Smodur wanted peace with humans. Smodur has been taking credit for the peace accords, despite the fact that the actions which put everything into play (getting Vigil to retrieve the Claw of the Khan-Ur and give it to Jennah so she could offer it to Smodur to initiate peace talks) was Malice's and Almorra's actions and planning. Since peace with humans, the branded have been wiped out, progress was made against the ghosts, and the Flame Legion are now allied.

On top of that, Smodur's only "rival" in petitioning for the position of Khan-Ur was always Bangar. Now that Bangar is labeled a traitor to the other two imperators post-Bound by Blood, Smodur basically sees the position of Khan-Ur as effectively gained. This is why he goes about ordering other legion soldiers left and right. Which naturally bothers the officers of other legions (as firmly established by Rytlock, who before was working with Smodur as a more-or-less equal due to being a Tribune in another legion).

Another possibility for Smodur's apparent change in personality, is due to whom we're fighting - this is the first time we've seen Smodur's attitude towards "traitorous charr". We never once got to hear his take on Renegades prior to Season 5, and in Bound by Blood, he was pretty bloodthirsty towards the notion of getting to fight Renegades.

Then there's also Ryland himself. Ryland is young, strong, and charismatic. He is quickly showing up to be a rising threat to Smodur's dominance as Khan-Ur. So naturally, Smodur wants to nip this in the bud. Hence his constant regard to dismissing Ryland and the Steel Warband, preferring to just kill them instead of negotiation.

Finally, and most peculiarly, there's the possibility of external interference. Specifically speaking, Jormag. Throughout the episode, Smodur is repeating a key phrase in various wording: "We don't need traitors". He even says this moments before that critical moment in the final instance. If Jormag's been whispering in his mind that he doesn't need traitors, over and over again, well, that'll get to him.

TL;DR

  • Change in scenario, leading to peaceful and progressiveness giving way to agressiveness to achieve his goals.
  • Bangar, his only rival, is effectively "out of the picture" and he considers himself Khan-Ur - initiate power tripping.
  • He might simply despise traitorous charr more than anything else.
  • Ryland is an up-and-coming rival that he doesn't want now that Bangar is out of the picture.
  • Jormag influencing.

When I first saw it, I thought it was a bit out of character. But the more I thought about it, the more I realize that while it's a different side of him, it isn't contradictive.

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I forgot exactly in which episode, but I remember the commander suggesting Smodur as replacement for Bangar, since Smodur has been always (the few times we saw him) more diplomatic and rational. I guess Anet decided to get rid of Smodur as well, in favor of Crecia and (probably) Ryland as her young right-hand man/esquire (but as @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said, he killed Almorra, and he's just a puppet, so no sympathy for him).But the change of personality was quite out of the blue for me. I've been surprised as well.

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@"Randulf.7614" said:There is no diplomatic option here either.

This is the truth. Smodur sees that and appears to be the only one to see that, Crecia and Rytlock are compromised as Ryland is their son. Who knows what Malice's plans are. Hell, the pact commander seems to have forgotten that there can be no negotiation with the elder dragons (despite the fact that the fight with Drakkar just happened).

Bangar is feeding an army to Jormag, we all know that. The traitors who joined Bangar are, either actually or effectively, dragon minions now. Bangar's a threat to all charr everywhere. Maybe Smodur is too heavy handed but he's right that we can't negotiate our way out of this. Ryland certainly was not interested in talking.

I suspect that this is how charr always fight, it's total war, after you've beaten your opponent thoroughly you let them try to negotiate for better terms, but you hold all the cards.

As for the truce with the humans, well as the saying goes, diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you find a big enough stick. Smodur was happy to negotiate with the humans because that freed up the charr legions from a centuries long siege and lost them very little. Perhaps nothing in the long run: who knows how long the peace would have lasted after the other threats to the charr were removed.

Once the threats of the ghosts, flame legion, ogres and Krakaltorik are removed then what? Where next for the charr?

His plan, like Bangar's, is for a new charr Empire with Smodur as Khan-ur. I never believed that he was committed to peace as some kind of an end goal for the charr. Peace is just another weapon for him.

In the end I suspect that Malice will be Khan-ur.

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@"Pifil.5193" said:As for the truce with the humans, well as the saying goes, diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you find a big enough stick. Smodur was happy to negotiate with the humans because that freed up the charr legions from a centuries long siege and lost them very little. Perhaps nothing in the long run: who knows how long the peace would have lasted after the other threats to the charr were removed.

Once the threats of the ghosts, flame legion, ogres and Krakaltorik are removed then what? Where next for the charr?

His plan, like Bangar's, is for a new charr Empire with Smodur as Khan-ur. I never believed that he was committed to peace as some kind of an end goal for the charr. Peace is just another weapon for him.

Humans also benefited from the Ebonhawke treaty, and this reasoning could also be done from a human perspective, first solving internal problems and then attacking Iron Legion to recover Ascalon.

All these threats have actually been resolved, only the ritual to rid Ascalon of ghosts has been partially successful.In history he is the only emperor Charr who actively participated in helping the commander against both Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik by sending troops and weapons.

He never hid that he wanted to become Khan-ur.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@zealex.9410 said:He acted in charafter for how charr whould act but differently for how we've view'd him in the past.

I agree with randulf here tho, the enemy hes facing now is much smaller and more managable than kralkyHint: in the story we're being constantly informed about how Dominion is the
stronger
force than the unified legions here, and that the difference is getting bigger with every day.

@"Randulf.7614" said:He's doing what his warlike tendencies are driving him to do.That's the point - everything we heard about him so far told us that he was supposed to be the one that preferred the diplomatic and thought out solutions. And yet, instead, he now seems to think that "diplomacy" is just another word for "let's kill them all".

Notice by the way, that with his behaviour toward other
allied
charr, from other legions, he's also very much ruining his chances of becoming Khan-Ur and truly unifying the charr. Something a diplomat of his caliber should not be unaware of.

@videoboy.4162 said:They've hinted for quite some time that Smodur's end goal is to be Khan-Ur and he's been playing the long game to get there. Everything going on right now has thrown a huge wrench in his plans.Yeah. His behaviour being one of the biggest factors after the last story.

@Diovid.9506 said:Is this on purpose? Are we meant to doubt whether Smodur is still sane? Or is he just badly written? He sure as kitten didn't seem 'pragmatic' to me.The answer to this question will decide whether this episode was one of the best or worst LS chapters so far.

Personally, i really, really hope they do have an in-story, reasonable explanation on this 180 degrees flip of personality.

Narrator: They in fact did not, they just are getting worse at writing themselves out of their contracting game lore and plot holes. But there is always money in the Banana... Er... Gem Stand.

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The charr are a society of warriors, organised into legions and warbands. Loyalty is highly valued in most armies, and probably far more so among the charr. I don't know any charr lore, but I can imagine that an imperator of a martial legion would absolutely despise turncoats who betray his legion? (esp the fuzzball who lured his legion away) To him, traitors could rank far lower than slaves, and it is also a personal affront to him

(Ash legion sounds like they might be more forgiving in this regard?)

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@Hannelore.8153 said:On top of this, like it or not, Charr are a warbourne society and these people are traitors. Yes, Ryland and his Warband are hardcore traitors, and in many countries on Earth they'd be executed on sight. If anything Smodur is somewhat civil compared to what Ryland and his friends have done, and what Bangar is trying to do to the Charr society in general. Not unite it, but regress and destroy it entirely.

This one I'm going to object to.

Iron and Ash Legion members joining the Dominion are pretty clear-cut as being traitors, but as part of Blood, the Steel Warband are following the orders of the legitimate Blood Imperator. Said Imperator may have gone off the deep end and broken the alliance with the other legions, but the Steel Warband never had a change in allegiance - they've been following the same leader throughout.

Strictly speaking, in fact, it's Crecia and Rytlock, especially Crecia, who's turned traitor by taking over what was left of the Blood Legion in Bangar's absence in what is essentially a coup. We give them a pass because they're doing so out of having a greater loyalty to the charr alliances (both between the legions, with other races, and with multiracial organisations), but nevertheless, those are the ones that have turned against their Imperator.

Which is a distinction that the Smodur we'd seen before should have made. Execute the Iron Legion defectors? Sure, they did turn traitor, and nobody's going to trust someone who defects and then defects back to their original side without really strong evidence that they've changed their worldview. But for the Steel warband... we had good reason to think that at least a couple of them were privately uncomfortable with what Bangar is doing but so far they've just been going along with the chain of command - if they were to switch, it would be believable (as well as being a major propaganda victory).

If Smodur felt that Cinder should not be released, there were a lot of things he could have done apart from arbitrarily murdering her mid-negotiation when he knew that would infuriate his allies.

@"Naxos.2503" said:I'm not questioning his pragmatism, but I seriously question his sudden callousness. There is a huge element of it during the second negociation with Ryland that just makes no sense. And one can visibly see it on his face as he does the deed : That to me, is out of character. Doing that during negociations -just- to anger the opposite party makes very little sense from a pragmatic standpoint, especially when the opposite party is about to concede. He did it to prolong the bloodshed, not end it. As if Killing more of his opponents will results in him getting more glory. He is a glory seeker yes, but Smodur is Way smarter than this. This, I expect of a Blood Legion imperator. Iron Legion rewards ingenuity.

I think this is a story tool, in order to give more credence to Efram, and make him appear as the more humane Charr of all imperators, with the added twist that he isn't one, but with the expectation that he -should- be.

To be fair, I didn't get the impression Ryland was about to concede. He was basically saying "Give up your leverage and maybe I'll think about what you're saying". Maybe he was genuine, maybe it was purely a ploy to get Cinder out of there. I can see Smodur deciding that letting her go without getting more in return than an "I'll consider it" wasn't a good trade.

Killing her there and then wasn't a smart way to handle it, though, either for the short to medium term of winning the war, or his long-term ambitions.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@"casualkenny.9817" said:The charr are a society of warriors, organised into legions and warbands. Loyalty is highly valued in most armies, and probably far more so among the charr. I don't know any charr lore, but I can imagine that an imperator of a martial legion would absolutely despise turncoats who betray his legion? (esp the fuzzball who lured his legion away) To him, traitors could rank far lower than slaves, and it is also a personal affront to him

(Ash legion sounds like they might be more forgiving in this regard?)

We know that this legion Charr is made up of spies and assassins, they may have a particular conception of what is considered "betrayal", I think this legion is on the side of the strongest or those with similar interests, it is more likely that Ash Legion has other purposes in this war and not Iron Legion.

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@Sheader.6827 said:They jumped his personality too much. I remember from Season 2 how calm and respectful he was towards the PC and Rytlock. This is not the same character. The situation does not demand him to turn into Bangar 2.0.

What it is is bad writing, plain and simple.

I feel really, really bad for all the people that have been begging for Cantha for 6 years, cause when they get it next year, all they will get is disappointment. They have already contradicted the lore on it many times in GW2 itself. None of the writers from Factions are still at ANet.

It will not be what is expected, at all, except looking Weeb, and it will disappoint harder than their attempt at Elona/Nightfall nostalgia did with Path of Fire.

HoT was the last good story they had.

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He still is! He hasn't changed. I don't even see the problem here. Smodur is doing what is practically done in any conflict, hold the line and punish betrayal and defections. However, he does have a more heavy hand in war than in peace. But still, it's no diffferent than what any mere run-of-the-mill Charr warband does on a daily basis. The thing is, the player and Crecia want diplomacy so they can bring back Ryland in one piece. However, diplomacy doesn't always work. Bangar's forces have made it clear that they will oppose the legions to the death.

If people see a problem with Smodur, it's simply because the latest episode did a good job highlighting the differences between Crecia and co vs. Smodur, which in any case good job ANet! Basically, Smodur wasn't a problem until the story said he was a problem!

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@voltaicbore.8012 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:After some thinking:

Smodur is pragmatic.War does not work? Try diplomacy.Diplomacy does not work? Go to war.Bangar is creating a new charr god? Fight him to stay free.Traitors are strenghtening the opposition and might wipe you out? Kill them - to contain the threat and send a strong message to those who are thinking about treason.

He stayed true to himself tbh and acts like I would expect from the imperator of Iron Legion.

I 100% agree, and I think a lot of people who are interested in Tyrian lore feel the same way.

I think most of us are actually not shocked or particularly surprised that Smodur is doing what he's doing. What we're
not
pleased with, however, is how the writing seems to
want
us to be shocked/surprised/betrayed. It's dumb.

The main issue with Smodur is that he's written into tricking the player to do things.

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@Sheader.6827 said:They jumped his personality too much. I remember from Season 2 how calm and respectful he was towards the PC and Rytlock. This is not the same character. The situation does not demand him to turn into Bangar 2.0.

To be fair, in Season 3 he had Rytlock arrested for questioning, and then deemed Rytlock's experiences in the Mists 'classified' so there was no opportunity to make the link between a figure in the Mists that could reignite Sohothin and Balthazar until Balthazar had already caught us by surprise.

But yeah, there does seem to be a shift in his characterisation.

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