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Please stop asking LI for strike missions


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Kill proof requirements are fine and for the most part are a good thing but I do find it interesting that LI became the entry requirement for strikes given that you can't get it by actually doing strikes. I get that raids are harder, therefore if you can prove you can raid, you are overqualified for strikes.

It nevertheless makes you wonder why Anet didn't turn misty cape scraps into a stackable inventory item and therefore make them usable as KP for strikes. KP that you acquire by actually doing the thing its supposed to prove you can do. Hell they could have created a series of technical and/or speed clear type achievements with increasingly elaborate cape trims ending in a precursor and legendary cape.

Imagine trying to explain this to your noob friend. If it gets too confusing Jimmy, don't worry about it, lets just go gank some plebs in WvW. Whats your spvp rank? Show me your finisher...

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@Besetment.9187 said:Kill proof requirements are fine and for the most part are a good thing but I do find it interesting that LI became the entry requirement for strikes given that you can't get it by actually doing strikes. I get that raids are harder, therefore if you can prove you can raid, you are overqualified for strikes.

KP req never became entry level for strikes? Why so is so many people pushing this narrative? LI squads for strikes have nothing to do with how You play your game. It does not affect you in any way. Make requirements You see fit, don't join LI squads If you don't want to. You don't have monopoly over LFG. We can't force you to join our squads and you can't force us to join yours either. Live and let live.

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its kind of hilarious in a sad way that this is happening. strike missions like you said are supposed to be an intro to raids, except people that raid won't accept people that don't. it would be cool if more people were relaxed and friendly, willing to teach newbies but most people just aren't. asking people to change isn't going to get you anywhere, but you can be the change you want to see (I know its corny but its true).

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:With the game gaining an even higher percentage of open-world-only players due to said requirements, the development would shift even further away from instanced content.

These people will never understand that all they're accomplishing with their gatekeeping is making ALL development stop on any type of instanced content. They're basically self-defeating.What you need to understand however that this so called "gatekeeping" goes both ways. People not good enough to clear joining the content are also preventing the better players from finishing it. It's not the fault of the players that put up requirements that they want to clear the content with no problem. If those players need to put up high requirements to do so, it's not on them, but on the content.

@"zombyturtle.5980" said:As long as players join groups and do 2-3k as a dps, I will keep putting requirements in my LFG.

If they ever stop, I will make all welcome groups, but I dont have much hope of that happening.

Anet had a chance to add recommended builds and gear sets when they added templates but they did not. Giving new players something to use would've helped a ton, as they'd be running a decent build and pulling at least 10k instead fo 2-3k.Now, do you understand my point of view? The "killproof" problem is not something that players can solve. It's something only the
devs
could fix.

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I understand both sides of this problem. On one hand asking for LI from raids to do a strike mission is absurd. On the other, I know the frustration of doing an easy strike mission, and still having people drop like flies at the first attack. So some basic combat experience would be nice.

Surely there is a middle ground to be found?

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I find it genuinely funny that people keep thinking that LFG requirements are "gatekeeping" them from playing the content. People keep believing that, if they cannot join a pre-made group on LFG, then they can't play the content at all.....but that's delusional.Nothing is preventing anyone from creating a group at any time. Other players wanting to play with specific players (which exclude you) doesnt prevent you from creating your own group asking for whoever you want (or having no requirements in any way if that's what you want). There is NO ONE preventing you from playing the content except yourself.

What do you think those "high requirements" players did before being able to fill such requirements ? They created their own group. Simple. I can't believe people feel that strikes are inaccessible when it is extremely easy to create a group and get into the content. Open LFG, click "Advertise your group", put up a nice short description, get people, play the content. You might even one shot it :) That's easy !

Now, if you refuse to create your own group because you dont want to play with inexperienced players and possibly fail, but you want to join experienced groups even though you're inexperienced and feel gatekept from playing the content because those experienced groups wont take you with them, then YOU are the problem with this community. Not them.

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@Shikaru.7618 said:

@"DutchRiders.2871" said:I wanna play with people that raid hence I ask for LI.

If strikes go non existent I dont care, they are not that interesting. If they get more easy, that means more easy loot.

"I only want to play with the cool kids" is why raids were abandoned by the developers.

Blaming the symptom and not the root cause. The reason this rift exists is because there's such a high jump in difficulty that the game does not prepare you for so effectively, when people get to the end of the story/open world, they might as well be braindead. There are plenty of resources provided by the community to help bridge this gap but still requires the player to take initiative outside of the game to practice and learn. If the 10x performance gap didn't exist, requirements would not be nearly as strict.

Conversely, casual strikers would likely not accept level 70 characters into their squad and the gap between level 70 open worlder to level 80 open worlder performance is far less than open worlder to raider performance.

Which is sad. I wish next expansion introduce some OW balance to make it more challenging (like add extra mechanics on world bosses that can't be ignored by zerging more).

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@Kulvar.1239 said:

@"DutchRiders.2871" said:I wanna play with people that raid hence I ask for LI.

If strikes go non existent I dont care, they are not that interesting. If they get more easy, that means more easy loot.

"I only want to play with the cool kids" is why raids were abandoned by the developers.

Blaming the symptom and not the root cause. The reason this rift exists is because there's such a high jump in difficulty that the game does not prepare you for so effectively, when people get to the end of the story/open world, they might as well be braindead. There are plenty of resources provided by the community to help bridge this gap but still requires the player to take initiative outside of the game to practice and learn. If the 10x performance gap didn't exist, requirements would not be nearly as strict.

Conversely, casual strikers would likely not accept level 70 characters into their squad and the gap between level 70 open worlder to level 80 open worlder performance is far less than open worlder to raider performance.

Which is sad. I wish next expansion introduce some OW balance to make it more challenging (like add extra mechanics on world bosses that can't be ignored by zerging more).That probably won't happen. You see, @Shikaru.7618 is wrong in his assesment here. The rift is indeed caused by performance gap, but the gap itself is
not
a result of the game not preparing you for higher difficulty. Or rather, it is, but not in the way Shikaru thinks. The gap is caused by the combination of some of the core features of GW2 - specifically by
freeform build system
and
action combat
.

Basically, in other games, the build/combat system is created in such a way, that impact of even the greatest gaps in skill and knowledge on your effectiveness are minimized. Those games will not let you make a really bad build, and will try to flatten the skill differences by putting more emphasis on gear.

In gw2 the freeform build and action combat systems do exactly opposite. They make sure that you can easily create not only massively overpowered, but also completely useless builds, they also put so much emphasis on skill and reaction time that even small differences here can result in massive gaps between players. Which is a wonderful thing for those that can make the most out of those systems, but is very, very bad for everyone else.

So, unless that underlying issue is somehow fixed, introducing more difficulty into OW content is not going to close the gap between top and average players. It will only decrease number of people playing said content. Unfortunately, since the root of the problem is something lying at the very core of the game system, it's not something that we can expect to ever be addressed.

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I think li is just there to keep more players from playing the content. and also because they assume it is hard enough for most of the community. I find this an insult to injury. I certainly won't miss playing with such people. just because you claim it is hardcore content doesn't mean it was ment to be. If it wasn't about dps tank builds would be rewarded aswell. you just cry about the 5 seconds you lose, because one player didn't press the correct skill rotation. I never gonna raid and it is kind of a shame tbh that wannabe hardcore players think they have the say in what to do.

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@"pninak.1069" said:I think li is just there to keep more players from playing the content. and also because they assume it is hard enough for most of the community. I find this an insult to injury. I certainly won't miss playing with such people. just because you claim it is hardcore content doesn't mean it was ment to be. If it wasn't about dps tank builds would be rewarded aswell. you just cry about the 5 seconds you lose, because one player didn't press the correct skill rotation. I never gonna raid and it is kind of a shame tbh that wannabe hardcore players think they have the say in what to do.

The truth is no one really cares about what you do. These "wannabe hardcore players" want to play with other "wannabe hardcore players." If you don't want to play with them, don't. It is simple. Make your own group. Find people that you want to play with. Either way, don't blame them for why you don't play the content.

It blows my mind how many people say they can't play content because of people asking for LI or KP for things.

Anyone can make a squad. I guarantee I have seen at least 10 people complaining about this.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"DutchRiders.2871" said:I wanna play with people that raid hence I ask for LI.

If strikes go non existent I dont care, they are not that interesting. If they get more easy, that means more easy loot.

"I only want to play with the cool kids" is why raids were abandoned by the developers.

Blaming the symptom and not the root cause. The reason this rift exists is because there's such a high jump in difficulty that the game does not prepare you for so effectively, when people get to the end of the story/open world, they might as well be braindead. There are plenty of resources provided by the community to help bridge this gap but still requires the player to take initiative outside of the game to practice and learn. If the 10x performance gap didn't exist, requirements would not be nearly as strict.

Conversely, casual strikers would likely not accept level 70 characters into their squad and the gap between level 70 open worlder to level 80 open worlder performance is far less than open worlder to raider performance.

Which is sad. I wish next expansion introduce some OW balance to make it more challenging (like add extra mechanics on world bosses that can't be ignored by zerging more).That probably won't happen. You see, @Shikaru.7618 is wrong in his assesment here. The rift is indeed caused by performance gap, but the gap itself is
not
a result of the game not preparing you for higher difficulty. Or rather, it is, but not in the way Shikaru thinks. The gap is caused by the combination of some of the core features of GW2 - specifically by
freeform build system
and
action combat
.

Basically, in other games, the build/combat system is created in such a way, that impact of even the greatest gaps in skill and knowledge on your effectiveness are minimized. Those games will not let you make a really bad build, and will try to flatten the skill differences by putting more emphasis on gear.

In gw2 the freeform build and action combat systems do exactly opposite. They make sure that you
can
easily create not only massively overpowered, but also completely useless builds, they also put so much emphasis on skill and reaction time that even small differences here can result in massive gaps between players. Which is a wonderful thing for those that can make the most out of those systems, but is very, very bad for everyone else.

So, unless that underlying issue is somehow fixed, introducing more difficulty into OW content is not going to close the gap between top and average players. It will only decrease number of people playing said content. Unfortunately, since the root of the problem is something lying at the very core of the game system, it's not something that we can expect to
ever
be addressed.

You are ignoring the fact that if content gets harder veery slowly, people will get mechanically better eventually without feeling forced to. People only leave if they feel that the gap is to big. It's always about relative difficulty.

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@yann.1946 said:

@"DutchRiders.2871" said:I wanna play with people that raid hence I ask for LI.

If strikes go non existent I dont care, they are not that interesting. If they get more easy, that means more easy loot.

"I only want to play with the cool kids" is why raids were abandoned by the developers.

Blaming the symptom and not the root cause. The reason this rift exists is because there's such a high jump in difficulty that the game does not prepare you for so effectively, when people get to the end of the story/open world, they might as well be braindead. There are plenty of resources provided by the community to help bridge this gap but still requires the player to take initiative outside of the game to practice and learn. If the 10x performance gap didn't exist, requirements would not be nearly as strict.

Conversely, casual strikers would likely not accept level 70 characters into their squad and the gap between level 70 open worlder to level 80 open worlder performance is far less than open worlder to raider performance.

Which is sad. I wish next expansion introduce some OW balance to make it more challenging (like add extra mechanics on world bosses that can't be ignored by zerging more).That probably won't happen. You see, @Shikaru.7618 is wrong in his assesment here. The rift is indeed caused by performance gap, but the gap itself is
not
a result of the game not preparing you for higher difficulty. Or rather, it is, but not in the way Shikaru thinks. The gap is caused by the combination of some of the core features of GW2 - specifically by
freeform build system
and
action combat
.

Basically, in other games, the build/combat system is created in such a way, that impact of even the greatest gaps in skill and knowledge on your effectiveness are minimized. Those games will not let you make a really bad build, and will try to flatten the skill differences by putting more emphasis on gear.

In gw2 the freeform build and action combat systems do exactly opposite. They make sure that you
can
easily create not only massively overpowered, but also completely useless builds, they also put so much emphasis on skill and reaction time that even small differences here can result in massive gaps between players. Which is a wonderful thing for those that can make the most out of those systems, but is very, very bad for everyone else.

So, unless that underlying issue is somehow fixed, introducing more difficulty into OW content is not going to close the gap between top and average players. It will only decrease number of people playing said content. Unfortunately, since the root of the problem is something lying at the very core of the game system, it's not something that we can expect to
ever
be addressed.

You are ignoring the fact that if content gets harder veery slowly, people will get mechanically better eventually without feeling forced to. People only leave if they feel that the gap is to big. It's always about relative difficulty.

People playing this game are not analytical. At no point will the player ask themselves hmm this fight is starting to get a little harder. What should I do differently? The game also doesnt do a good job of telling the player what they did wrong, only that they died. Without direction, people will simply get frustrated and quit because theres no natural path forward for them.

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@Shikaru.7618 said:

@"DutchRiders.2871" said:I wanna play with people that raid hence I ask for LI.

If strikes go non existent I dont care, they are not that interesting. If they get more easy, that means more easy loot.

"I only want to play with the cool kids" is why raids were abandoned by the developers.

Blaming the symptom and not the root cause. The reason this rift exists is because there's such a high jump in difficulty that the game does not prepare you for so effectively, when people get to the end of the story/open world, they might as well be braindead. There are plenty of resources provided by the community to help bridge this gap but still requires the player to take initiative outside of the game to practice and learn. If the 10x performance gap didn't exist, requirements would not be nearly as strict.

Conversely, casual strikers would likely not accept level 70 characters into their squad and the gap between level 70 open worlder to level 80 open worlder performance is far less than open worlder to raider performance.

Which is sad. I wish next expansion introduce some OW balance to make it more challenging (like add extra mechanics on world bosses that can't be ignored by zerging more).That probably won't happen. You see, @Shikaru.7618 is wrong in his assesment here. The rift is indeed caused by performance gap, but the gap itself is
not
a result of the game not preparing you for higher difficulty. Or rather, it is, but not in the way Shikaru thinks. The gap is caused by the combination of some of the core features of GW2 - specifically by
freeform build system
and
action combat
.

Basically, in other games, the build/combat system is created in such a way, that impact of even the greatest gaps in skill and knowledge on your effectiveness are minimized. Those games will not let you make a really bad build, and will try to flatten the skill differences by putting more emphasis on gear.

In gw2 the freeform build and action combat systems do exactly opposite. They make sure that you
can
easily create not only massively overpowered, but also completely useless builds, they also put so much emphasis on skill and reaction time that even small differences here can result in massive gaps between players. Which is a wonderful thing for those that can make the most out of those systems, but is very, very bad for everyone else.

So, unless that underlying issue is somehow fixed, introducing more difficulty into OW content is not going to close the gap between top and average players. It will only decrease number of people playing said content. Unfortunately, since the root of the problem is something lying at the very core of the game system, it's not something that we can expect to
ever
be addressed.

You are ignoring the fact that if content gets harder veery slowly, people will get mechanically better eventually without feeling forced to. People only leave if they feel that the gap is to big. It's always about relative difficulty.

People playing this game are not analytical. At no point will the player ask themselves hmm this fight is starting to get a little harder. What should I do differently? The game also doesnt do a good job of telling the player what they did wrong, only that they died. Without direction, people will simply get frustrated and quit because theres no natural path forward for them.

It has nothing to with being analytical though. Do you think people improve from the beginning of the core game to the end?If you increase speed slightly reflexes will improve slowly. Ofcourse nobody can improve indefinitely.

But saying gamedesign can't increase mechanical skill is just false.

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@yann.1946 said:It has nothing to with being analytical though. Do you think people improve from the beginning of the core game to the end?If you increase speed slightly reflexes will improve slowly. Ofcourse nobody can improve indefinitely.Reflexes may increase (to a degree, which for many will still be heavily subpar), but it's just one of the many factors. They will still be running bad build, in a bad gear, doing a bad rotation, and running through it too slowly. Because the whole freeform build system is all about letting them do exactly that. And the whole system that rewards action skills is also based on the assumption that it rewards (a lot) those that are better than average.

What's the point of a freeform system if everyone's running the same builds? What's the point of a system that rewards better skill if everyone gets rewarded equally? All those cases assume that there will be those below the average. And all those systems give massive benefits (and equally big penalties) to those that divert from average (either up or down).

But saying gamedesign can't increase mechanical skill is just false.Oh, it can. But you'd need a different game design than GW2's in order for it to have impact on the whole game population, and not just a select few as it is now.

I mean, seriously, even if you could use the increased system difficulty to make all players better, how much better could they get? I'd say that even 10% would have to be considered to be massive improvement. To get to that point, you;d probably ned to introduce content that would make a lot of players stop playing (like it originally happened with HoT). All for 10% increase, that in GW2 is peanuts. In order for it to matter, you'd need to make them increase by 200-300% minimum. And even that for many would not be enough (remember, the 10x disparity is not between top and bottom, but between top and average).That's something you won't ever get done just by gradual increases of difficulty.

You can do that by minimizing the effect on effectiveness of:

  1. freeform build system - either by giving up on it and removing choice at all, or by making the difference in effectiveness between different choices much smaller
  2. gear stat sets - again, either by removing different sets, or minimizing the effect of stats they carry using some different means.
  3. rotations - You'd need to lessen the importance of order, speed and precision of skill activation (and managing of skill cooldowns) on the end result. There are probably several ways to do that, but they'd require some major changes to how things work currently.Notice, that all of those things need some reworks of the core systems of the game. Reworks that are probably way too big for a 7 year old game (with some that would probably be too big for any game that's outside of early beta). You might perhaps see some small changes in the third category, but both gear and build systems are likely what we'll have to live with till the game shuts down.
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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@yann.1946 said:It has nothing to with being analytical though. Do you think people improve from the beginning of the core game to the end?If you increase speed slightly reflexes will improve slowly. Ofcourse nobody can improve indefinitely.Reflexes may increase (to a degree, which for many will still be heavily subpar), but they will still be running bad build, in a bad gear, doing a bad rotation. Because the whole freeform build system is all about letting them do exactly that.

Yes, and these are facets which are harder to change in the game. (build craft is difficult after all.)

But we can look at options to improve specific facets (break bars, reaction speed, positioning etc)

But saying gamedesign can't increase mechanical skill is just false.Oh, it can. But you'd need a different game design than GW2's.

Wasn't that the point of this discussion, how is an increase of mechanical skill possible within gw2 broader design principles and why should we bother with it?

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@yann.1946 said:Wasn't that the point of this discussion, how is an increase of mechanical skill possible within gw2 broader design principles and why should we bother with it?And that's my point - within current design principles we probably shouldn't bother, because the impact of what we could achieve without changing those principles would be at best minimal. And the price of achieving that minimal change might even end up being way too great for what we'd get.

You can't realistically achieve any significant success without attacking some core design principles.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:In gw2 the freeform build and action combat systems do exactly opposite. They make sure that you can easily create not only massively overpowered, but also completely useless builds, they also put so much emphasis on skill and reaction time that even small differences here can result in massive gaps between players. Which is a wonderful thing for those that can make the most out of those systems, but is very, very bad for everyone else.So, unless that underlying issue is somehow fixed, introducing more difficulty into OW content is not going to close the gap between top and average players. It will only decrease number of people playing said content. Unfortunately, since the root of the problem is something lying at the very core of the game system, it's not something that we can expect to ever be addressed.

Well they could start by removing all the trap stat combinations from the game that nobody in their right mind would ever use. Also, make sure the low level rewards are more appropriate. For example, in single stat gear only Power is a stat that's worth having, all the other single stats are worthless. The important factor to consider is that Power is overloaded in the game, it plays the most important role in dealing damage by a huge margin, having Power alone results in more overall damage than having both Precision and Ferocity of equal value, that's how strong it is. Therefore, gear stats that don't have Power will under-perform so badly that's even questionable why they exist in the game, as the "support" they provide isn't worth the trade off. With some very rare exceptions.

Another part that is not easily visible for players is Precision, Condition Duration and Boon Duration. They are all worthless above 100% yet the game doesn't tell players that they've reached that point, or that they might reach it when playing with certain party buffs.

There are ways to make the gearing aspect of the game better, it's at the very core of the game but I think it CAN be fixed.

Edit:

  1. gear stat sets - again, either by removing different sets, or minimizing the effect of stats they carry using some different means.

Should've read some more ^_^ yep gave some examples on this exact part. Changing the effects of stats isn't the way to go, removing bad stat combinations is.

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Yes, some spring cleaning of stat sets might be nice - though i'd say that most of the more extreme ones are actually useful somewhere (it's the hybrids that are the greatest trap). In the end we'd probably still need some more drastic changes to the gear stat set system (and stat system in general), as well as some standarizations of how the "allowed" sets should look like, so there's not so much disparity between them (i have some ideas for those, but this is not the thread for it).

@maddoctor.2738 said:Should've read some more ^_^ yep gave some examples on this exact part. Changing the effects of stats isn't the way to go, removing bad stat combinations is.I think that the main problem isn't even the bad stat combinations. It's about how overpowered the good combinations are compared to everything else.

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That alone wouldn't change much, there are also multiple design issues with some of the weapons sets which can't just be addressed by changing some numbers. Furthermore, there are some cases where your build doesn't affect your DPS at all. Take the Ancient Forgeman for example, all people would have to do to kill him is get into the tank, break this BB and spam 1. The NPCs even scream what you have to do but in public pugs most of the time > 50% of the party fails to do so. The issue here is that many people just don't care about changing up their preferred playstyle, becoming "better at the game" is just not something they care about and there is nothing that can be done about this except for fixing what can be fixed (even if it takes some effort to do so) and design content with the behavior of the target audience in mind.

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@"Tails.9372" said:That alone wouldn't change much, there are also multiple design issues with some of the weapons sets which can't just be addressed by changing some numbers. Furthermore, there are some cases where your build doesn't affect your DPS at all. Take the Ancient Forgeman for example, all people would have to do to kill him is get into the tank, break this BB and spam 1. The NPCs even scream what you have to do but in public pugs most of the time > 50% of the party fails to do so. The issue here is that many people just don't care about changing up their preferred playstyle, becoming "better at the game" is just not something they care about and there is nothing that can be done about this except for fixing what can be fixed (even if it takes some effort to do so) and design content with the behavior of the target audience in mind.

So you want to make the game dumber because you PUG with dumb people that don't want to be less dumb ?I do PUG this instance too and we always destroy the forgeman easily, so I can't agree with you that there are too many dumb people for the game to challenge players into becoming better.

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@Kulvar.1239 said:

@Kulvar.1239 said:So you want toDon't make assertions and read again.

Since when a question is an assertion ?Your right, the first part of your sentence was not necessarily an assertion. But depending on how you read it you either have an assertion with an assumptive question or an assumptive question based on an assertion. Either way it's still a loaded question so what I said still applies.
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@Tails.9372 said:Furthermore, there are some cases where your build doesn't affect your DPS at all. Take the Ancient Forgeman for example, all people would have to do to kill him is get into the tank, break this BB and spam 1. The NPCs even scream what you have to do but in public pugs most of the time > 50% of the party fails to do so.If all everyone'll do is jump into tank and spam 1, then the same thing happens, because the tank will get broken (and thus unable to be used until repaired... and then broken again right away) due to noone clearing adds. From you comment i can only assume you might have not noticed the group doing that for you, though.

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