I'm sorry but how is this acceptable?

[Agrippa.1693]

@Besetment.9187 said:Power Reaper has a lower ceiling than all the other meta dps builds but it also has one of the highest floors. Consistantly high average dps in practical, real world scenarios is easy to achieve on a Power Reaper, more so in sub optimal conditions.

Can you show me real data on this lovely story of yours, or is this just from hearsay?Cause Raidar was showing a different picture back when it was still online (a couple of months ago): it was actually the other way around. power Reapers scored even worse (read: even bigger gaps compared to other classes) in lower levels for the punishment when you make a mistake is quite high (eating shroud for defence, camping axe, sitting out full animations, etc.) as a power Reaper.

[Astralporing.1957]

@lare.5129 said:

@"Shaogin.2679" said:

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

Why are Necromancers

Don't look on this fake resource. This is fake numbers on golem whit all boons, all stat infusions, from same position. Also keep that is whit get same all stats and will try repeat it it on golem - it is not repeatable for 99% players.It frankly doesn't matter for the discussion at hand if the data on that website is true or subject to some manipulation as you claim, because that manipulation, even if it really existed, would still be applied equally to all classes. And it's not absolute numbers that are important here, but relative ones.

[Shiyo.3578]

Be nice if core necro shroud was buffed to the moon in PvE only so we had a condi only PvE spec since scourge is taxed by 30% for having shields.

[Shaogin.2679]

So I'm seeing a lot of misconception about Necromancers here. First of all, let's drop the whole "Necromancers are easy mode" argument. No class in this game is particularly difficult to play, and I used to play Condi Engineer. Also, I see people constantly talking about how difficult it is to max out dps on the high dps classes, but this margin of error exists for all classes. I tried out Power Chrono for shits and giggles, and far exceeded my Power Reaper's dps in actual encounters without even fully understanding the rotation. This is because even if I can pull off 80% of the Power Chrono's potential dps, I will still do more dps than a Power Reaper that is executing their rotation flawlessly. And, keep in mind, I still have plenty of sustain on Power Chrono due to the high amount of evade frames, and I also provide excellent group utility unlike the Power Reaper. So honestly, what is the justification for a Power Chrono completely dwarfing a Power Reaper in every way possible?

I also see people talking about Condi Scourge dps lacking due to it having a simple rotation and great group utility. First of all, let us look at the build used for the benchmark. As you can see, it does not take Blood Magic at all, nor does it take Abrasive Grit, Desert Empowerment, or Sand Savant from the Scourge trait line. This means that the max dps Condi Scourge build cannot heal allies, perform Transfusion resses, and has an insignificant amount of group condi cleanses and barrier application. People should also know that barrier scales off of healing power, which the Condi Scourge has none of. In order to bring any of this group utility, the Scourge must sacrifice some of its already pathetic dps. Now for comparison, let us look at the Condi Firebrand. Like the Condi Scourge, the Condi Firebrand is a conditon based dps class that also provides group support. The Condi Firebrand also has a simple rotation, and great sustain. Unlike the Scourge though, the Firebrand is capable of providing essential group utility such as Aegis, Stability, Resistance, and Projectile Destruction, without making any changes to its build. It provides vastly superior dps without making the sacrifices a Scourge would have to make to provide inferior group utility. Hell, even the Condi Banner Berserker provides more dps and group utility than the Scourge. So again, please by all means attempt to justify this to me.

Also, no idea why people attempt to discredit these benchmarks. True, most players will not hit these benchmarks in actual fights. However, as I pointed out above, none of these rotations are insanely difficult, and doing 80% of a Power Chrono's max dps is still insanely better than pulling off even 100% of a Power Reaper's max dps. I know this from experience. I can pull off more dps with ease, have just as much sustain, and have more group utility on any other class. I enjoy the style and theme of the Necromancer class though, and it is always sad to see the way this class is treated in PvE.

[Obtena.7952]

The difficulty of the rotations are irrelevant. Unless you care to explain why Anet should balance around these top DPS levels, then the fact still stands it's absurd for them to do so because they aren't indicative of how people play or what they need to succeed in endgame.

[Shaogin.2679]

@Obtena.7952 said:The difficulty of the rotations are irrelevant. Unless you care to explain why Anet should balance around these top DPS levels, then the fact still stands it's absurd for them to do so because they aren't indicative of how people play or what they need to succeed in endgame.

Your lack of understanding of how benchmarks work contributes nothing to this conversation. Unless you can dispute literally anything I've stated, then I have nothing to discuss with you. Sorry.

[Eramonster.2718]

It's tricky to balance at this point imo based on how necro works. The difference between power vs condi. Condi needs time to build up, ticks and deal different damage (mostly on Burn and Torment-condition, Bleed and Poison are similar). Most of necro condi ticks for a long duration compared to other classes (other classes can burt/inflict multiple condi at a faster phase while necro are more constant for a longer duration, hence the benchmark will not be high). And in most cases, benchmark DPS in on a single target, not AoE.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Shaogin.2679" said:Also, no idea why people attempt to discredit these benchmarks. True, most players will not hit these benchmarks in actual fights.

You literally just stated what the reason is. The fact that the top 5-10% of players will have to chose between the top tier class is what is the definition of which class is ranked how. This does not apply to the remaining 90%.

Also the "myth" of necromancer being the most tanky class falls in the same argument. 90% of the players in this game face tank stuff left and right. The fact that the top 10% might not, and thus be just as survivable on other classes, or more, is irrelevant.

Now one could argue IF balance should be done around the top 10%, or the entire player base. Just stop this bs that necro isn't tanky. It's tanky af for most players.

[Agrippa.1693]

@"Obtena.7952" said:The difficulty of the rotations are irrelevant.Here is something we can agree on.First of all, difficulty, especially in rotations, is a subjective thing. A pianoplayer, may laugh at certain so called "difficult" rotations, while finding it hard to know which skills are exactly off cooldown without looking at his/her skillbar (i.e. a 'good' player doesn't look at his/her bar, but knows when something is off cooldown).But secondly, knowing a rotation is imo only a small part of it. Far more important is knowing where you can miss a beat, where it's smart to pick up a rotation if something goes wrong, where you can time your dodges, etc., etc. In other words: how much forgiveness is there in a rotation, and where is it. But that's hardly ever mentioned on these forums, the "difficulty" of a rotation is pretty much always measured in simply how many different buttons you have to push ...

Unless you care to explain why Anet should balance around these top DPS levels,No they shouldn't (only) balance around these TOP dps numbers, imo they should balance around a full range of statistics. But DPS in the PvE endgame is definitely a very prominent one of it (again: imo). Btw, there happen to be even worse gaps between classes if you play on the mediocre levels, who will never reach top dps to begin with!then the fact still stands it's absurd for them to do so because they aren't indicative of how people play or what they need to succeed in endgame.

And this is such a non-argument. The game or any other game for that matter wouldn't even exist if there would be a class that just wasnt capable in succeeding in endgame content. Sure, it's the first principle of any RPG game: make all classes viable in doing all content, but when that principle is met (again every game out there!) you can actually start balancing your game. In other words: NO, ANet will and should also not balance merely around fact of a class capable of succeeding endgame content ... Although, sometimes I do have the feeling they do, if it comes to PvE: lazy balancing ...

[Agrippa.1693]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Now one could argue IF balance should be done around the top 10%, or the entire player base. Just stop this bs that necro isn't tanky. It's tanky af for most players.But pretty much ALL other classes are as well, people just tend to forget that there's also something like Marauder gear out there, and you'll still outdps a Necro!!!Hell, you can literally not die with a Marauder Daredevil with Invigorating Precision and still easily outdps a Berserker Reaper.Or any Marauder Warrior, for that matter, you could even go in Tactics, still outdps a Necro and be more of use to other players (while being extremely tanky as well!).Don't even mention a Marauder Dragonhunter which will laugh at the dps of a Reaper ...These days, I wouldnt even surprise if a Marauder Scrapper can outdps a Reaper. And they are literally the embodiment of: facetanking everything!!!

EDIT: I really would like to add: YES, a Necro can be very tanky in soaking up damage, but the trade-off is imminent: it is then officially worthless in the role it has! No other class has that as extremely the Necro has that. Also a very important note: GW2 doesnt have a real classic tank role where it's good to have one tank to soak up extreme amounts of damage, and really has to build as such, in order so that other players can go glassy. It's not designed like that. ANd even then, the Necro is not even the right choice to go for! .... Which says enough!

[maddoctor.2738]

It's sad that we lost GW2Raidar. IT had way more accurate data than any "benchmark"

edit: and it showed a much much different picture than the "benchmarks", especially for the builds on top.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Now one could argue IF balance should be done around the top 10%, or the entire player base. Just stop this bs that necro isn't tanky. It's tanky af for most players.But pretty much ALL other classes are as well, people just tend to forget that there's also something like Marauder gear out there, and you'll still outdps a Necro!!!Hell, you can literally not die with a Marauder Daredevil with Invigorating Precision and still easily outdps a Berserker Reaper.Or any Marauder Warrior, for that matter, you could even go in Tactics, still outdps a Necro and be more of use to other players (while being extremely tanky as well!).Don't even mention a Marauder Dragonhunter which will laugh at the dps of a Reaper ...These days, I wouldnt even surprise if a Marauder Scrapper can outdps a Reaper. And they are literally the embodiment of: facetanking everything!!!

EDIT: I really would like to add: YES, a Necro can be very tanky in soaking up damage, but the trade-off is imminent: it is then officially worthless in the role it has! No other class has that as extremely the Necro has that. Also a very important note: GW2 doesnt have a

real classic

tank role where it's good to have one

tank

to soak up extreme amounts of damage, and really has to build as such, in order so that other players can go glassy. It's not designed like that. ANd even then, the Necro is not even the right choice to go for! .... Which says enough!

Yes, and once you factor for gear, builds and everything you can do: you have left pretty much 70% of the entire player base behind.

Marauder is approximately a 10-12% dps loss versus berserker (without factoring for over capping crit chance on Maurauder). So I'm not seeing how a Marauder Dragonhunter leaves a Power Reaper behind. They are pretty close in the damage they can put out if the DH is on Maurauder. Unless you are assuming Virtues, which requires permanent retaliation to achieve its 38k benchmark, which should be obvious is only available on maybe 2-3 raid bosses and if the entire squad is built around this setup.

The same goes for Warrior. Drop the benchmark by 10%, and you are very close to the Power Reaper Benchmark.

Really not sure where you are getting your numbers from here. Given the dps loss on Marauder gear and current benchmarks, I'd say taking Marauder gear on other classes to make them as tanky as necro for day to day stuff works perfectly balance wise.

Just to be clear, I am not against giving every class viable endgame builds. I am just tired of the very biased arguments about necro survivability. It's pretty much the highest out of all classes out the box. This is not of significance for the top players or even only decent players, but it certainly is for the remaining part of the playerbase.

[Mad Queen Malafide.7512]

@Lexi.1398 said:The issue with an extra health bar is, in raids and fractals anyway, if something kills you it KILLS you. You cannot outheal an attack which either does bonkers damage or is scripted, either one to intentionally down you if you fail the mechanic, extra health isn't useless per se, but doing an encounter correctly will get you much further than additional health will.

One of many reasons why I severely dislike insta-kill mechanics. It completely negates Deathshroud and armor, and places the focus even more on dps.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Marauder is approximately a 10-12% dps loss versus berserker (without factoring for over capping crit chance on Maurauder). So I'm not seeing how a Marauder Dragonhunter leaves a Power Reaper behind. They are pretty close in the damage they can put out if the DH is on Maurauder. Unless you are assuming Virtues, which requires permanent retaliation to achieve its 38k benchmark, which should be obvious is only available on maybe 2-3 raid bosses and if the entire squad is built around this setup.

The same goes for Warrior. Drop the benchmark by 10%, and you are very close to the Power Reaper Benchmark.

Really not sure where you are getting your numbers from here. Given the dps loss on Marauder gear and current benchmarks, I'd say taking Marauder gear on other classes to make them as tanky as necro for day to day stuff works perfectly balance wise.

Just to be clear, I am not against giving every class viable endgame builds. I am just tired of the very biased arguments about necro survivability. It's pretty much the highest out of all classes out the box. This is not of significance for the top players or even only decent players, but it certainly is for the remaining part of the playerbase.

Reaper suffers from lower shroud uptime on real raidbosses. It is just impossible to play reaper on some bosses like vale guardian and it is also very hard to have proper dps on bosses like qadim. Necro survivability is not the highest out of the box. Power ren has that. Also necro suffers from bad healing skills compared to all other classes.Shroud is not helping in endgame content, it is a handicap. Try doing cm fractals with 4 dhs + ala ren and then try it with 4reaper + alaren. Doing that with 4 reapers is actually harder and they have lower damage.Dh heal, ele heal and warrior heals are all full heals while Necros heal is barely noticeable. Necro also cant just heal with kalla like everyone else since gs attacks are too slow for that and heal is blocked by shroud most of the time anyways.. Want to bring projectile defense? How about 10sec self weakness because your damage isnt low enough to begin with.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

@Lexi.1398 said:The issue with an extra health bar is, in raids and fractals anyway, if something kills you it KILLS you. You cannot outheal an attack which either does bonkers damage or is scripted, either one to intentionally down you if you fail the mechanic, extra health isn't useless per se, but doing an encounter correctly will get you much further than additional health will.

One of many reasons why I severely dislike insta-kill mechanics. It completely negates Deathshroud and armor, and places the focus even more on dps.

Thats the only way you can force players to do mechanics. Otherwise they will be treated like vg greens and btw reapers are super unplayable tier if such mechanics exist since shroud uptime will suffer very hard. And in vale guardians case reaper can dps race support classes.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Marauder is approximately a 10-12% dps loss versus berserker (without factoring for over capping crit chance on Maurauder). So I'm not seeing how a Marauder Dragonhunter leaves a Power Reaper behind. They are pretty close in the damage they can put out if the DH is on Maurauder. Unless you are assuming Virtues, which requires permanent retaliation to achieve its 38k benchmark, which should be obvious is only available on maybe 2-3 raid bosses and if the entire squad is built around this setup.

The same goes for Warrior. Drop the benchmark by 10%, and you are very close to the Power Reaper Benchmark.

Really not sure where you are getting your numbers from here. Given the dps loss on Marauder gear and current benchmarks, I'd say taking Marauder gear on other classes to make them as tanky as necro for day to day stuff works perfectly balance wise.

Just to be clear, I am not against giving every class viable endgame builds. I am just tired of the very biased arguments about necro survivability. It's pretty much the highest out of all classes out the box. This is not of significance for the top players or even only decent players, but it certainly is for the remaining part of the playerbase.

Reaper suffers from lower shroud uptime on real raidbosses. It is just impossible to play reaper on some bosses like vale guardian and it is also very hard to have proper dps on bosses like qadim. Necro survivability is not the highest out of the box. Power ren has that. Also necro suffers from bad healing skills compared to all other classes.Shroud is not helping in endgame content, it is a handicap. Try doing cm fractals with 4 dhs + ala ren and then try it with 4reaper + alaren. Doing that with 4 reapers is actually harder and they have lower damage.Dh heal, ele heal and warrior heals are all full heals while Necros heal is barely noticeable. Necro also cant just heal with kalla like everyone else since gs attacks are too slow for that and heal is blocked by shroud most of the time anyways.. Want to bring projectile defense? How about 10sec self weakness because your damage isnt low enough to begin with.

All correct. All not applicable to the entire game but ONLY raids and to some extent fractals. There have been issues with necro survivabilty in other game modes to this day. Necro is the most survivable class out the box for most content beside raids/fractals on pretty much any build no matter how trash the build is due to it's innate nature and design.

If you want to have a viable necro spec for group content, fine, just keep the bs out of it please that necro is not tanky for a majority of this game or make clear that you are talking ONLY about raid content. In which case this becomes an issue about balancing a class to a very specific content, where the simple answer just might be: the developers just don't have the time OR desire OR both to work this out.

[Obtena.7952]

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The difficulty of the rotations are irrelevant. Unless you care to explain why Anet should balance around these top DPS levels, then the fact still stands it's absurd for them to do so because they aren't indicative of how people play or what they need to succeed in endgame.

Your lack of understanding of how benchmarks work contributes nothing to this conversation. Unless you can dispute literally anything I've stated, then I have nothing to discuss with you. Sorry.

The points to dispute have already been made ... you simply chose to ignore them by claiming I don't understand benchmark. /shrug.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:No they shouldn't (only) balance around these TOP dps numbers, imo they should balance around a full range of statistics. But DPS in the PvE endgame is definitely a very prominent one of it (again: imo). Btw, there happen to be even worse gaps between classes if you play on the mediocre levels, who will never reach top dps to begin with!

The folly here is that almost EVERY complaint like the one in this thread has assumed that balance should be around this Top DPS benchmark .. .and that is the absurdity of it all. I have YET to see any thread like this one explain why it makes sense for Anet to balance to this benchmark given that the threshold for success in the endgame is already accommodating these DPS gaps. The fact is that there is NO mechanical aspect of the game that prevents people from playing what they want within the constraints of available builds and being successful. This is NOT a game mechanics problem ... it's a player perception issue. I have no doubt that as player ability gets lower, gaps get bigger. That's a moot point to me ... we are talking about team effort ... the aggregate DPS of the team is what is relevant, not any particular individual. AGAIN ... we have top end players short-manning raids ... when there is THIS much room between success and failing, there is no compelling argument from a MECHANICS reasoning that DPS gaps need to be closed.

then the fact still stands it's absurd for them to do so because they aren't indicative of how people play or what they need to succeed in endgame.

And this is such a non-argument. The game or any other game for that matter wouldn't even exist if there would be a class that just wasnt capable in succeeding in endgame content.

That's not an non-argument at all. That's precisely why DPS gaps aren't a problem ... the game DOES exist and it does work for lots of people with a wide variety of builds and capabilities and it is balanced on the content side to address these DPS gaps. Seriously, the whole PVE endgame DPS balancing exercise would be completely academic and would only accomplish appeasing people that don't take GW2 as a game with it's own philosophy and approach to design.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

Benchmarks are a poor way to make an opinion on what is good and what is not

[avey.4201]

give up about10k of your base health, and we'll talk, risk/reward.

[Jimbru.6014]

It's like ideal vs. real systems in physics.

"Meta" DPS benchmarks are based on the ideal: a player with full boons beating uninterruptedly on an immobile test dummy that doesn't hit back.

In a real fight, things aren't perfect. The player and target are in motion, boons come and go, AOE has to be dodged, CC interrupts and phases bust your rotation, and so forth. The result is real DPS being lower than "meta" DPS across the board, and some classes lose more than others. Sometimes a lot more.

Don't get me wrong: "meta" benchmarks are good information for understanding the maximum possibilities of a class build. But even so, they should never be used for determining game balance, because they simply do not reflect the reality of how the game actually plays.

[Obtena.7952]

@"Jimbru.6014" said:It's like ideal vs. real systems in physics.

"Meta" DPS benchmarks are based on the ideal: a player with full boons beating uninterruptedly on an immobile test dummy that doesn't hit back.

In a real fight, things aren't perfect. The player and target are in motion, boons come and go, AOE has to be dodged, CC interrupts and phases bust your rotation, and so forth. The result is real DPS being lower than "meta" DPS across the board, and some classes lose more than others. Sometimes a lot more.

Don't get me wrong: "meta" benchmarks are good information for understanding the maximum possibilities of a class build. But even so, they should never be used for determining game balance, because they simply do not reflect the reality of how the game actually plays.

People want to justify their desire for more DPS balance in that ideal world because if they are forced to do the same in the real world, they get hit with the reality that there isn't a need to change the game to give them what they want; people team with necros all the time and are successful doing so and have been since the beginning of the game. The only difference is that some people have learned to play ... others still struggle to do so and fall back on their tired ideas of how an MMO has to work. They simply can't get past that it works in a way they aren't able to comprehend.

[Shiyo.3578]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:It's sad that we lost GW2Raidar. IT had way more accurate data than any "benchmark"

edit: and it showed a much much different picture than the "benchmarks", especially for the builds on top.

The benchmarks are pretty misleading since 99.99% of people cannot reach them. Something like Wowlogs would be a lot better for the community to use, but then guilds like snowcrow couldn't get free e-fame.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:It's sad that we lost GW2Raidar. IT had way more accurate data than any "benchmark"

edit: and it showed a much much different picture than the "benchmarks", especially for the builds on top.

The benchmarks are pretty misleading since 99.99% of people cannot reach them. Something like Wowlogs would be a lot better for the community to use, but then guilds like snowcrow couldn't get free e-fame.

Except that they aren't. Kitty's played most of the imaginable builds in PVE endgame and currently she's reached the point where she's pretty consistent with all mechs and she can somewhat reliably compare the builds' dps to her own wide-scale test results which pretty much follow SC's comparable performances between builds. (As in, what SC benched highest were also highest in Kitty's tests) And in her gameplay, that dps difference has been very evident at any bosses with clear stack-able burn phases.Sabetha is one of Kitty's favourite bosses as it tests boss dps (small hitbox), burst, cleave, utility and survivability all at once and there Kitty generally does 20-22k boss dps with builds that bench 35-36k and 15-17k on builds that'd bench 29-31k in SC's benchmarks with the rotas Kitty uses. Cairn is another such boss where Kitty does 25k'ish dps on 35k benching dps and 18-20k ish on 28-30kish benching dpsers if mechs/supports don't mess up too badly.In fractals, high-cleaving bursty power builds (+condi FB) have a serious advantage. Even if you're the only good dps in T4 squad, bosses usually phase in 30-45 seconds at by that point, condi dpsers have just reached full stacks on boss. Due to fractals being way more mechanical by nature, the utility really shows up there as well as movement speed.

Now guess who pulls the shortest straw when Kitty's playing the most optimal version of the build? Condi thieves, followed by condi scourge and power reaper. Power reaper is best of those 3 in fractals and decent in general there and also does semi-decent dps at dps golem'ish bosses but at others...it has no saving grace and people have already mentioned its shortcomings. Condi pistol Deadeye and scourge at least do full dps from distance if needed by mechs and scourge has epi which somewhat compensate for low bench but they're horrible at any dps golem'ish boss. And latest balance patch just made it worse when classes with lots of utility got boosted to 37-38k benchmark range and even all the other weaker builds got boosted (except condi thief RIP) . Meanwhile necromancer wasn't touched while it was among the weakest already 'cause "it's op in open-world". Yush. But even then, chrono has clones, ranger has pets and elementalist has elemental army to tank for them while making less sacrifices with way superior potential dps compared to minionmaster reaper. Warrior has "heal when might" - traits, guardian has blocks, rev has Battle Scars, thief has Invigorating Precision+pistols for kiting everything to death and scrapper has Impact Savant. These all pretty much make necro when it comes to survivability/dps ratio, even in open-world. Reaper does have Soul Eater for heals but...only in 300 range and outside shroud which just adds salt in the wound.

As a sad fact about minions: raid necros have only brought Shade as utility 'cause they don't have anything more useful at most bosses. Flesh Golem is brought for CC so necro would have at least some utility and also because necro doesn't have better elites for most bosses. Even Blood Fiend is mostly taken for best overall heals (which are sloooow) and tiny weeny bit of extra damage.

Kitty's also started hearing reports about "eww reaper, kick them"-attitude lately. We had a good while without that when the dps gap on small hit box was 5k'ish but guess it's re-emerged now that it's 10k'ish when latest BP took full 180 from how they had been balancing for a good while before that and Kitty personally still doesn't feel like playing as she knows she wouldn't be able to carry her own weight in decent squads with most of her alternative builds now. Just waiting for a balance patch to balance things a bit...

[Astralporing.1957]

@avey.4201 said:give up about10k of your base health, and we'll talk, risk/reward.Let me just laugh a bit in my warrior.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:It's sad that we lost GW2Raidar. IT had way more accurate data than any "benchmark"

edit: and it showed a much much different picture than the "benchmarks", especially for the builds on top.True, it showed a different picture than the benchmarsk, but as far as i can remember from when it was still up, it still quite supported OPs point. The actual breakdown of classes in real raid situations looked a bit different than the theoretical benchmarks that's true,, but necros were still near the bottom. Well, apart from that short time where you could abuse the kitten out of epi bouncing on few selected fights, but even then those results were visible only on 90/99% ranges, because average pugs weren't really able to utilize those strats all that well.

[Agrippa.1693]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Now one could argue IF balance should be done around the top 10%, or the entire player base. Just stop this bs that necro isn't tanky. It's tanky af for most players.But pretty much ALL other classes are as well, people just tend to forget that there's also something like Marauder gear out there, and you'll still outdps a Necro!!!Hell, you can literally not die with a Marauder Daredevil with Invigorating Precision and still easily outdps a Berserker Reaper.Or any Marauder Warrior, for that matter, you could even go in Tactics, still outdps a Necro and be more of use to other players (while being extremely tanky as well!).Don't even mention a Marauder Dragonhunter which will laugh at the dps of a Reaper ...These days, I wouldnt even surprise if a Marauder Scrapper can outdps a Reaper. And they are literally the embodiment of: facetanking everything!!!

EDIT: I really would like to add: YES, a Necro can be very tanky in soaking up damage, but the trade-off is imminent: it is then officially worthless in the role it has! No other class has that as extremely the Necro has that. Also a very important note: GW2 doesnt have a

real classic

tank role where it's good to have one

tank

to soak up extreme amounts of damage, and really has to build as such, in order so that other players can go glassy. It's not designed like that. ANd even then, the Necro is not even the right choice to go for! .... Which says enough!

Yes, and once you factor for gear, builds and everything you can do: you have left pretty much 70% of the entire player base behind.

Marauder is approximately a 10-12% dps loss versus berserker (without factoring for over capping crit chance on Maurauder). So I'm not seeing how a Marauder Dragonhunter leaves a Power Reaper behind. They are pretty close in the damage they can put out if the DH is on Maurauder. Unless you are assuming Virtues, which requires permanent retaliation to achieve its 38k benchmark, which should be obvious is only available on maybe 2-3 raid bosses and if the entire squad is built around this setup.

The same goes for Warrior. Drop the benchmark by 10%, and you are very close to the Power Reaper Benchmark.

Really not sure where you are getting your numbers from here. Given the dps loss on Marauder gear and current benchmarks, I'd say taking Marauder gear on other classes to make them as tanky as necro for day to day stuff works perfectly balance wise.

And this is where you're wrong, the Reaper is NOT just 10% behind in real raid scenarios, not under speedclearers and not even under mediocre players. Even in best raid scenarios for the Reaper, they're at least 20% behind, and in worst case scenarios even up to 60%!!! I've showed you the numbers before with high enough 'n' to make it conclusive (when Raidar was still online), but you still hold on to your stigma ... just like almost everyone else does!!!