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Wasn't the Icebrood Saga supposed to be about Norn and Charr and not about just the Charr ?


Vancho.8750

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Is it me or the Icebrood Saga is more about Charr then norn, most of the characters that get some screen time are charr.So we got Bjora for the norn but there a fuck all Norn characters , we have Braham but he is always there anyway and we got Jhavi, cool is that all.The lore is nice and all but it is just world building which adds some flavor to things we already know.So where are the rest of the Norn did they turn all in to sons of Svanir, where are the legend seekers, hunters, wolfborn, where are Knut and his sons. I feel like we got more character development on Norn with Dragon bash then from the Saga.The whole Norn are just big human meme kinda just gets reinforced since there are no memorable and interesting Norn characters left.

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I dont recall there being an intention for it to be focussed on the Norn. I mean they kinda wasted Drakkar, but theres some decent norn lore in episode 1.

It seemed clear from the Prologue that charr would be prominent anyway. Next episode will likely continue the civil war theme into the northern section vs frost legion and icebrood.

Im not expecting much Norn stuff outside of perhaps recruiting some to fight back against jormag near the end.

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@"Vancho.8750" said:So where are the rest of the Norn did they turn all in to sons of Svanir, where are the legend seekers, hunters, wolfborn, where are Knut and his sons. I feel like we got more character development on Norn with Dragon bash then from the Saga.The whole Norn are just big human meme kinda just gets reinforced since there are no memorable and interesting Norn characters left.

"Norn are just big human" is because people are dumb.

Where is Knut? Running Hoelbrek. You know, his home. Where are the wolfborn? Guarding Hoelbrek, you know, their home. Wolfborn are a guard force, not an army. Knut is not a general, just respected. Back when the Norn marched with the Pact to the silverwastes it wasn't wolfborn, but hunters and other Norn.

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Hoelbrak and a whole bunch of Norns make an appearance in the trailer where they took up arms against the Frost Legion. It's clear they still have a very big part to play in the future. Remember, it isn't just Bangar that's the villain, our real target is Jormag, who's very deeply tied to Norn lore. The Charr have the spotlight now for the purpose of exposition and buildup, but I have no doubt the Norn will get their turn eventually.

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@Kalavier.1097 said:

@"Vancho.8750" said:So where are the rest of the Norn did they turn all in to sons of Svanir, where are the legend seekers, hunters, wolfborn, where are Knut and his sons. I feel like we got more character development on Norn with Dragon bash then from the Saga.The whole Norn are just big human meme kinda just gets reinforced since there are no memorable and interesting Norn characters left.

"Norn are just big human" is because people are dumb.

Where is Knut? Running Hoelbrek. You know, his home. Where are the wolfborn? Guarding Hoelbrek, you know, their home. Wolfborn are a guard force, not an army. Knut is not a general, just respected. Back when the Norn marched with the Pact to the silverwastes it wasn't wolfborn, but hunters and other Norn.So the leader of the Norn is sitting on his hands while the Charr are trying to kill the biggest nemesis of the Norn.Usually you set up characters at the begging of the story, that is what they did with Grothmar for the Charr. Bjora should have had more predominant Norn but all it got was 2 and i don't think they will add anymore that matter after.For people that search for personal Glory the Norn do fuck all in the game.

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In the second part of the episode, the story will probably take us beyond Wolf's Crossing and Norn should be able to play his part in the story.

I just hope that Braham does not have an absolute protagonist role, but that the Norn faction is led by Jhavi, I liked the way he managed Drakkar, there is a photo that portrays Rytlock, Jhavi and Braham ready to face the opposing army.

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@Vancho.8750 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:So where are the rest of the Norn did they turn all in to sons of Svanir, where are the legend seekers, hunters, wolfborn, where are Knut and his sons. I feel like we got more character development on Norn with Dragon bash then from the Saga.The whole Norn are just big human meme kinda just gets reinforced since there are no memorable and interesting Norn characters left.

"Norn are just big human" is because people are dumb.

Where is Knut? Running Hoelbrek. You know, his home. Where are the wolfborn? Guarding Hoelbrek, you know, their home. Wolfborn are a guard force, not an army. Knut is not a general, just respected. Back when the Norn marched with the Pact to the silverwastes it wasn't wolfborn, but hunters and other Norn.So the leader of the Norn is sitting on his hands while the Charr are trying to kill the biggest nemesis of the Norn.Usually you set up characters at the begging of the story, that is what they did with Grothmar for the Charr. Bjora should have had more predominant Norn but all it got was 2 and i don't think they will add anymore that matter after.For people that search for personal Glory the Norn do kitten all in the game.

I'm guessing you don't know much of anything about the Norn based on this post.

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@"vier.1327" said:I want more sylvari Lore, we do not even have an expansion or a whole LS season yet...Are we playing the same game? Living World Season 2 and Heart of Thorns were fairly Sylvari-focused. Sylvari PCs got special dialogue in the expansion. I even recall forum posters criticizing how the Orr storyline was too focused on Sylvari and not enough on humans who were setting foot in their "Holy Lands."

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@Genesis.8572 said:

@"vier.1327" said:I want more sylvari Lore, we do not even have an expansion or a whole LS season yet...Are we playing the same game? Living World Season 2 and Heart of Thorns were fairly Sylvari-focused. Sylvari PCs got special dialogue in the expansion. I even recall forum posters criticizing how the Orr storyline was too focused on Sylvari and not enough on humans who were setting foot in their "Holy Lands."

The Iron E....

Like Mister E, but ironically.?

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@"Genesis.8572" said:Are we playing the same game? Living World Season 2 and Heart of Thorns were fairly Sylvari-focused. Sylvari PCs got special dialogue in the expansion. I even recall forum posters criticizing how the Orr storyline was too focused on Sylvari and not enough on humans who were setting foot in their "Holy Lands."Pretty much.-LWS2 and HoT were the Sylvari story focus.-Icebrood Saga is the Norn/Charr story focus.-The Primordus LW/Saga/expansion/whatever they do for it will be the Asura story focus.-Elona and Cantha are, OFC, Human story focus.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Genesis.8572" said:Are we playing the same game? Living World Season 2 and Heart of Thorns were fairly Sylvari-focused. Sylvari PCs got special dialogue in the expansion. I even recall forum posters criticizing how the Orr storyline was too focused on Sylvari and not enough on humans who were setting foot in their "Holy Lands."Pretty much.-LWS2 and HoT were the Sylvari story focus.-Icebrood Saga is the Norn/Charr story focus.-The Primordus LW/Saga/expansion/whatever they do for it will be the Asura story focus.-Elona and Cantha are, OFC, Human story focus.

LW2 was Human/Sylvari with a hint of Charr (Humans had their time to shine with a lot of lore into the inner workings of the Ministry as well as the stuff with Belinda and the Zephyrites, Sylvari because Aerin and Scarlet and Charr because of the whole Uncle Trombone jumps into the Mists thing as well as the early running around Iron Marches killing plants...)

HoT was pretty much entirely Sylvari focus.

LW3 was Human/Asura focus. Asura because of a lot to do with Taimi and Rata Novus. Human because the entire arc of Caudecus/Lazarus (Shining Blade) and of course the introduction of Balthazar, not to mention things like Siren's Landing having all the old Orr rulers on it as Hearts with shrines to Human gods as objectives.

PoF was entirely Human focused.

LW4 is Human/Charr focused with a hint of Asura (Human because its more Humans being attacked by a Plague that only kills Humans, Charr because of the Sandswept Isles and the Olmakhan and the dash of Asura is due to the Inquest/Rata Primus and Awakened Inquest stuff)

IBS is Norn/Charr focused, though without that much to do with Norn if you consider how they've been ignored in literally all content in the game until now with slight exception of Eir's memorial at the start of LW3... (Even the "Norn" zone in LW3 ended up being more about Kodan/Quaggan and a bit of Grawl than Norn with the only Norn stuff being getting the Thaw Elixir Recipe from the Sons of Svanir and Braham's mission to crack Jormag's Tooth)

Even LW1 was Sylvari/Asura themed due to Scarlet and Primordus being the prominent threats. While the Orr arc felt a lot like Sylvari/Charr focus due to being centred around Trahearne and then Charr military forces (Copters, Cannons, Tanks...) with Humans jumping in right at the end with the Glory of Tyria airship helmed by Logan...

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Episodes 1 and 2 were purely norn focused...Episodes 0 and 3 were primarily charr focused...

I'd say it was fairly even so far.Bjora was world building focused about Norn lore and history, but most of the characters on the map are not Norn, the story about the Norn somehow ends up about the Pact and about the Kodan(again), even the essence system that gains its power from the dead spirits of the wild is explained by asura instead of Norn shaman.

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@"Vancho.8750" said:but most of the characters on the map are not Norn,

Outside of the kodan, most characters are definitely norn. Both those involved in quests (Jhavi and Weibe being the only allied NPCs involved in the metas, both are norn) or just nameless NPCs. Yes, there are asura, charr, human, and sylvari among the Vigil. But not many, not as many as norn.

If you add in enemy NPCs, then they're almost all exclusively norn with a handful of kodan and animals.

the story about the Norn somehow ends up about the Pact and about the Kodan(again)

The Pact aren't involved, only the Vigil and the "Pact story" that's about the Vigil is about the norn of the Vigil, and the "kodan story" is also norn story (Lost Spirits, Jhavi, Braham). However, most of the story was revolving around Braham (Destiny's Edge 2.0 and the "prophecy" and burden of cracking the tooth) and the Spirits of the Wild (Raven, Wolf, and the Lost Spirits) for Episodes 1 and 2.

even the essence system that gains its power from the dead spirits of the wild is explained by asura instead of Norn shaman.I'll grant this to you, but that's because the lore is using methods that norn would disagree with.

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Only problem I have with the Drakkar storyline is that they let Braham kill it instead of Jhavi.

Her open world part is pretty badass, but Braham getting to kill Drakkar instead of her felt pretty unearned.

I think they have plenty of time to pull focus back to the Norn for awhile, and I hope they do so. It's always kind of felt like maybe there aren't any devs at Anet who really enjoy writing stuff for the Norn and get excited about it. They seem to be really enjoying writing the Charr and bring it up often in chats buts they don't really get excited about Norn characterization and lore in the same way.

I really hope they come back to the Raven lens and actually use it more. The bit with Asgeir was great, and it made me think they were going to continue to add those visions elsewhere. I thought for sure you'd be able to find flashbacks of Svanir and Jora around the lake with the lens, but we didn't get anything like that.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Vancho.8750" said:but most of the characters on the map are not Norn,

Outside of the kodan, most characters are definitely norn. Both those involved in quests (Jhavi and Weibe being the only allied NPCs involved in the metas, both are norn) or just nameless NPCs. Yes, there are asura, charr, human, and sylvari among the Vigil. But not many, not as many as norn.

If you add in enemy NPCs, then they're almost all exclusively norn with a handful of kodan and animals.

the story about the Norn somehow ends up about the Pact and about the Kodan(again)

The Pact aren't involved, only the Vigil and the "Pact story" that's about the Vigil is about the
norn of the Vigil
, and the "kodan story" is also norn story (Lost Spirits, Jhavi, Braham). However, most of the story was revolving around Braham (Destiny's Edge 2.0 and the "prophecy" and burden of cracking the tooth) and the Spirits of the Wild (Raven, Wolf, and the Lost Spirits) for Episodes 1 and 2.

even the essence system that gains its power from the dead spirits of the wild is explained by asura instead of Norn shaman.I'll grant this to you, but that's because the lore is using methods that norn would disagree with.That is the issue nameless, unmemorable ,soldier number 323123. Even Waibe being a raven shaman has no character he is just plot device. Most of the story in bjora feels like exposition, when you compare with Grothmar where even the event NPCs have personality Bjora kinda falls off. You have Braham and Jhavi but there aren't other characters that they can bounce off. The Charr story line feels way more fleshed out(even though it is somewhat soupy), they even added characters from the personal story to go the extra mile, while Bjora feels like the rushed part of the personal story where most of the characters didn't matter much.

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@Vancho.8750 said:That is the issue nameless, unmemorable ,soldier number 323123. Even Waibe being a raven shaman has no character he is just plot device.Same can be said about npcs like the Minister of Morale, Metal Legion, and announcer for Ooze Pit or the allied Keep Lords in Drizzlewood. Though given the fact that Weibe comes from the personal story, I'd disagree that he has no character.

Most of the story in bjora feels like exposition, when you compare with Grothmar where even the event NPCs have personality Bjora kinda falls off.I definitely disagree. Fireside stories of Svanir and boneskinners, patrols talking about the norn's history with icebrood, visions of Aesgir pulling the Fang of the Serpent from where he fought Jormag. This is heavy personality.

They even used the norn to foreshadow the plot with Dragon Bash and the Suspicious Travelers where you could hear Jormag's whispers.

You have Braham and Jhavi but there aren't other characters that they can bounce off.You say that like Crecia and Rytlock has such.

The Charr story line feels way more fleshed out(even though it is somewhat soupy), they even added characters from the personal story to go the extra mile, while Bjora feels like the rushed part of the personal story where most of the characters didn't matter much.They added personal story NPCs to Bjora too (Jhavi, Weibe) and they delve into and connect several aspects of pre-existing norn lore, just as the charr story does.

Sounds more like your issue is that you don't delve into the norn story, but do delve a bit into the charr story, so you feel the story you've delved into more has more to delve into when that's not really so.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:That is the issue nameless, unmemorable ,soldier number 323123. Even Waibe being a raven shaman has no character he is just plot device.Same can be said about npcs like the Minister of Morale, Metal Legion, and announcer for Ooze Pit or the allied Keep Lords in Drizzlewood. Though given the fact that Weibe comes from the personal story, I'd disagree that he has no character.

Most of the story in bjora feels like exposition, when you compare with Grothmar where even the event NPCs have personality Bjora kinda falls off.I definitely disagree. Fireside stories of Svanir and boneskinners, patrols talking about the norn's history with icebrood, visions of Aesgir pulling the Fang of the Serpent from where he fought Jormag. This is
heavy
personality.

They even used the norn to foreshadow the plot with Dragon Bash and the Suspicious Travelers where you could hear Jormag's whispers.

You have Braham and Jhavi but there aren't other characters that they can bounce off.You say that like Crecia and Rytlock has such.

The Charr story line feels way more fleshed out(even though it is somewhat soupy), they even added characters from the personal story to go the extra mile, while Bjora feels like the rushed part of the personal story where most of the characters didn't matter much.They added personal story NPCs to Bjora too (Jhavi, Weibe) and they delve into and connect several aspects of pre-existing norn lore, just as the charr story does.

Sounds more like your issue is that you don't delve into the norn story, but do delve a bit into the charr story, so you feel the story you've delved into more has more to delve into when that's not really so.Waibe is plot device even in the personal story, he is quest giver that is about it. The fireside stories, which are almost hidden and most probably would be seen after covering most of the map, and the patrols talking is the definition of exposition. Crecia and Rytlock have the whole dynamic with Bangar , Ryland and the Charr Imperators.As i said Bjora is lore heavy, but there is lack characters and character development.The whole story is really hard focused on Braham, i know he is supposed to be the main protagonist and is his legend, but most of it is just about him and Jhavi is there to give exposition.Now that you made me look deeper into it feels even worse, cause most of it is just exposition.

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@"Taril.8619" said:Even LW1 was Sylvari/Asura themed due to Scarlet and Primordus being the prominent threats. While the Orr arc felt a lot like Sylvari/Charr focus due to being centred around Trahearne and then Charr military forces (Copters, Cannons, Tanks...) with Humans jumping in right at the end with the Glory of Tyria airship helmed by Logan...

There was a lot of "use asura magitech to solve the problem" in the original release and in season 1 as well, including in things where the solution really should have come from another race (example: the temples being 'cleansed' by using an asura device to cut them off, when it could have been an opportunity for human priests to perform rituals to cleanse them, even if only temporarily).

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@"Vancho.8750" said:As i said Bjora is lore heavy, but there is lack characters and character development.The whole story is really hard focused on Braham, i know he is supposed to be the main protagonist and is his legend, but most of it is just about him and Jhavi is there to give exposition.Now that you made me look deeper into it feels even worse, cause most of it is just exposition.

"Grothmar and Drizzle Wood is lore heavy, but there is a lack characters and character development. The whole story is really hard focused on Crecia and Rytlock, I know they're supposed to be main protagonists and their family, but most of it is just about them and the imperators are there to give exposition."

Same level of accuracy in both viewpoints. If Weibe. Cloudseeker, and Jhavi are just there to give exposition, so is Efram, Malice, and Smodur.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Vancho.8750" said:As i said Bjora is lore heavy, but there is lack characters and character development.The whole story is really hard focused on Braham, i know he is supposed to be the main protagonist and is his legend, but most of it is just about him and Jhavi is there to give exposition.Now that you made me look deeper into it feels even worse, cause most of it is just exposition.

"Grothmar and Drizzle Wood is lore heavy, but there is a lack characters and character development. The whole story is really hard focused on Crecia and Rytlock, I know they're supposed to be main protagonists and their family, but most of it is just about them and the imperators are there to give exposition."

Same level of accuracy in both viewpoints. If Weibe. Cloudseeker, and Jhavi are just there to give exposition, so is Efram, Malice, and Smodur.Even the exposition characters have more dynamics between each other in Drizzlewood, even though Smodur is used somewhat as a plot moving device with the family melodrama, he still got some character development for good or bad and there is also the B plot with Ryland and the Steel Warband.The characters in Bjora are on the same level of development that they started in the beginning of the episode, except Braham who got spirit magic and can become the Wolf now (the big reveal).

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