Initial thoughts on Ep3, No quarter (Spoilers obviously) (Mirror)

[White Kitsunee.4620]

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New patch, new thread.As all the others this thread is for everyone's Initial thoughts and discussion about the story patch,"No quarter"Post below your thoughts and lets figure out why Charr story is the best story ANET has done in years.

General stuffObviously because of the circumstances this story was delivered without voice acting. I didn't think much of this to when it was announced, one of my friends even said he thought he may prefer it that way. But like, dang, this game is built for voice acting and it really shows when you play without it, its almost eerie in a way.That being said I still think this is preferable to not getting story patches at all, despite how weird it felt, I felt really satisfied by this month's patch. Thank you ANET for soldiering on despite everything.Overall i'm extremely happy with the way the patch turned out, the whole WvW in PvE thing kinda fell flat on its face if you ask me, but it still makes a really fun meta. I think the location is fairly fun to explore but the thing that got me the most was the mobs. Very satisfying to kill and chunky feeling, and I enjoy how dangerous it feels to walk into enemy territory compared to your own. Map meta needs to be like an extra 15 - 30 minutes longer and much harder though. Its waaaaaay too short and there's no back and forth between the enemy right now.

Rewards are also fantastic, team has gotten much better with the design of skins. Thank you for finally giving us backpacks that actually look like one of characters would actually use and are not some random growth of ice coming out of our character's back.

Now for the juicy stuff. I'll start with the positives1.Story pacing was excellent compared to the last 2 episodes. The extra part with smodur made the story feel like a nice and juicy length. Obviously I still wish it was longer but for what we have been getting and the whole, log on play 2 hours of story meme has felt pretty real for the past 3 episodes.2.I really enjoy the branching dialogue in the first part of this episode, I know they ultimately don't actually but I really enjoy the illusion of choice I have, its good for roleplaying too. I really hope this continues.3.I really enjoy the general direction of the story, and I love how much more brutal its gotten now that we are doing Charr story, frost legion genuinely felt kinda imposing to me when I saw it for the first time. I really enjoy how kinda tough that last instance is. Sound direction is pretty good too, Ill probably appreciate it a lot more when voice acting is there though. I really hope we stay in this "Charr story mode" For a while because it's getting me much more excited then the "Norn story mode" which was much more slow paced and quite in tone.4.Great change of pace compared to the first 2 episodes.5.I really enjoyed the role the steel warband played in the episode.6.THANK YOU for Racial specific dialogue. There wasn't much but it's really flavorful when ANET does this kinda of stuff.6B. I SAW CLAWSPUR. EVERYONE SAID IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE BUT I SAW HIM.6C. CHARR LANGUAGE. YES YES YES YES YES YES YSE YES .

Overall i'm very happy with the how the story went this time around. I'm really excited for the next episode so despite the below this episode did a lot right.

Negatives.(I main Charr. Incoming wall of text will be about that.)1.I was severally disappointing with the dialogue in this episode. I'm used to cringing at my PC's dialogue, seeing things I know a Charr PC character would realistically never say, but it's a lot worse now that we are dealing with Charr story, and all of the other Charr NPC's are acting the same way.I'm specifically talking about the difference between how Smodur has been acting and how all of the other NPCs are acting. Smodur feels only one actually acting like a Legion Charr, actually trying to win a battle the way a Charr would. And I'm honestly just saddened by the scene early on when a couple of traitors get shot and the PC and Rytlock are surprised and disturbed. I'm fine with them not being okay what happened, but seriously, a Charr PC and Rytlock should be More then familiar with this kind of stuff. Both the Charr PC and Rytlock has done a lot worse then what was done in this episode, and frankly i'm disappointed.This extends to the other NPCs too. While I found it kinda stupid the way Malice and Crecia acted, (Efram gets off on this.) I'm more mad with how the story treated Smodur.

2. Smodur got done dirty this episode. I feels like he was completely flanderized into "generic tough Charr guy" and while that's bad its not the end of the world. But what is the end of the world is when everyone else treats him that way. He's made off as a joke and a coward several times when he's the only one actually taking this conflict like a military one. Rytlock even makes a jab at this in the 2nd instance.What's especially weird is how he seems to have lost all of his skills as a negotiator. With how the lore has slotted him in as this great negotiator he certainly does a good job of screwing up several negotiations. Was his only skills as a negotiator being good at bootlicking Human nobillity? Because that's the only thing he does that makes me think of his title of negotiator in the story with 2 parley's for peace.
3. While I appreciate the efforts, I think WP's call on living world story being, "the neutering of the Charr and Asura" as annoyingly true. (Though I appreciate the attempts to the contrary)Those were my main problems with the story but there's still a couple of things I wanted to discuss.4.Though I haven't explored it fully, it oodly feels like there are too few NPC's with dialogue trees, most of them are all cramped up in the starting area.5.Where was Braham? I know people don't like having him around but him not being here seems really weird to me considering the end of episode 2.6.I really enjoy the Steel warband and them being killed off right after we are given a good chance for getting attached to them but I don't know I felt like they could have done more with them. Same thing for the Ministry of Morale, I think it would have been a really cool idea for her to become the next mouthpiece of Jormag.7.As much as I really enjoy how threatening the frost legion looks and seems, I'm kinda worried that this being the start of a LW season that they'll get the same treatment as Joko and Caudecus did. And I feel like it will only be very effective in the long run if they become a Big threat.

[Randulf.7614]

My full feedback exists in the other main threads, but ill address some points

I thought the dialogue was pretty good compared to some instalments. Im also not swayed by these arguments Smodur was totally out of character. He is certainly more aggressive, but not beyond the confines of the character. He clearly has an agenda and believes he can win this, unlike previous wars vs the humans. Perhaps Jormag is manipulating him, but without Drakkar that seems less likely. I think some subtleties may have been lost without the VA

I hope the Frost Legion get a good run. The Awakened did (although Joko was treated poorly), but the Forged were a bit under utilised I thought.

[ugrakarma.9416]

yeah i think smoldur 'change' is overexagerated, sometimes i feel hes worst than bangar, hes basically straight kill anyone without any regard.

[HotDelirium.7984]

I was a bit confused about the timeline because we go from them trudging in the snow and trying to assemble a Charr army to go handle Jormag, we deal with Drakkar and then now we have Frost Legion, corrupted Minister of morale, Charr are infused with essence and steel warband is now dead. I almost feel we missed an episode.

[voltaicbore.8012]

@"White Kitsunee.4620" said:

2. Smodur got done dirty this episode. I feels like he was completely flanderized into "generic tough Charr guy" and while that's bad its not the end of the world. But what is the end of the world is when everyone else treats him that way. He's made off as a joke and a coward several times when he's the only one actually taking this conflict like a military one. Rytlock even makes a jab at this in the 2nd instance.What's especially weird is how he seems to have lost all of his skills as a negotiator. With how the lore has slotted him in as this great negotiator he certainly does a good job of screwing up several negotiations. Was his only skills as a negotiator being good at bootlicking Human nobillity? Because that's the only thing he does that makes me think of his title of negotiator in the story with 2 parley's for peace.
3. While I appreciate the efforts, I think WP's call on living world story being, "the neutering of the Charr and Asura" as annoyingly true. (Though I appreciate the attempts to the contrary)

I totally agree with disappointment on these two issues. I think it would be naive to believe that Smodur from the personal story wasn't capable of the kinds of things he's doing now, but I feel the writing has bent over backwards to portray him as off the rails and just as dangerous to the charr as Bangar. I really don't think that characterization of Smodur is going to work. I really, really, REALLY hope the character assassination of Smodur isn't happening primarily to pave the way for Cre to be the new leader of the charr in these most woke of times, but... I wouldn't put it past ANet to pull something like that. I like Cre, I think she deserves the imperator spot she has, and maybe she even deserves to be commanding instead of Smodur (a magic using charr who doesn't directly carry the Flame Legion stigma may have a lot to bring to the table to move the entire group forward). However, give us a more compelling path to that outcome other than "hurr Smodur bad now", which is what I feel we're getting so far.

Also, the neutering of the charr is something that also rubbed me the wrong way. I fully acknowledge that this is a battle for the survival of the charr, but NOT because it's merely a larger scale civil war! IMO the threat to the survival of the charr comes Bangar selling out a large swath of his people to Jormag in a bid for the dragon's power. Even that's a stretch - the Sons of Svanir exist, yet the norn as a people survived their turning. I just assume (because we don't seem to have been told outright) that the Dominion's share of the charr is large enough that all of them turning icebrood is somehow an existential threat to the charr as a whole.

[Bast.7253]

@"HotDelirium.7984" said:I was a bit confused about the timeline because we go from them trudging in the snow and trying to assemble a Charr army to go handle Jormag, we deal with Drakkar and then now we have Frost Legion, corrupted Minister of morale, Charr are infused with essence and steel warband is now dead. I almost feel we missed an episode.

The location is strange but I think they really wanted to a reason to visit this part of the map. It's been pretty highly requested. From that respect it did seem a bit shoehorned in. As far as the Frost Legion, I don't think that's really a surprise given Bangar's motives. With him being absent this patch I fully expect him to be front and center when the second half of the map is released next episode. I think we may even finish him off, but the story is moving pretty slow so there's no certainty. I imagine he will be fully "corrupted" and perhaps he's been empowered in some way that allows him to behave similar to Drakkar? One would assume that the essence bit was really just Drakkar being a dragonkin of somekind, but perhaps it's just a special ability Jormag can bestow upon its champions? I would assume Bangar is full fledged dragon champion at this point.

It does feel pretty strange though so far. Jumping from Epilogue and Charr Legion focus, to Jormag and spirits, back to Charr. I assume the next episode will be a good mixture of both with a possible conclusion to Bangar's role and continuation of Jormag leading into the remainder of the season's plot that shifts towards Primordus/DSD or whatever leads us to Cantha.

I also find it odd wondering where Jormag's location is. In Bitterfrost it was assumed he was closer to Eye of The North. It's possible he's at the center of the frozen Lake but we've had a few areas that seemed like they had significantly more influence. I.e. (Bitterfrost, Aesgir's in Bjora, and now the northern part of the new map.) If Jormag is asleep somewhere it seems odd that some of these areas are seemingly much more dense/jagged and frostier.

If we kill Bangar next episode, perhaps the season will shift towards Ryland as the leader. I don't know. I'm looking forward to the next part of the map though. It looks like it could have quite a bit of potential for being a really creepy frigid place. At the end of the bridge it also looks like it's leading into a large cave. So perhaps we're actually going underground to get our first glimpse of Jormag, or some more tie in with what's going on with the Dwarves?

Story wise it definitely wasn't my cup of tea, but mechanics/gameplay/map design wise it's really nice.

[HotDelirium.7984]

@voltaicbore.8012 said:

@"White Kitsunee.4620" said:

2. Smodur got done dirty this episode. I feels like he was completely flanderized into "generic tough Charr guy" and while that's bad its not the end of the world. But what is the end of the world is when everyone else treats him that way. He's made off as a joke and a coward several times when he's the only one actually taking this conflict like a military one. Rytlock even makes a jab at this in the 2nd instance.What's especially weird is how he seems to have lost all of his skills as a negotiator. With how the lore has slotted him in as this great negotiator he certainly does a good job of screwing up several negotiations. Was his only skills as a negotiator being good at bootlicking Human nobillity? Because that's the only thing he does that makes me think of his title of negotiator in the story with 2 parley's for peace.
3. While I appreciate the efforts, I think WP's call on living world story being, "the neutering of the Charr and Asura" as annoyingly true. (Though I appreciate the attempts to the contrary)

I totally agree with disappointment on these two issues. I think it would be naive to believe that Smodur from the personal story

wasn't

capable of the kinds of things he's doing now, but I feel the writing has bent over backwards to portray him as off the rails and just as dangerous to the charr as Bangar. I really don't think that characterization of Smodur is going to work. I really, really, REALLY hope the character assassination of Smodur isn't happening primarily to pave the way for Cre to be the new leader of the charr in these most woke of times, but... I wouldn't put it past ANet to pull something like that. I like Cre, I think she deserves the imperator spot she has, and maybe she even deserves to be commanding instead of Smodur (a magic using charr who doesn't directly carry the Flame Legion stigma may have a lot to bring to the table to move the entire group forward). However, give us a more compelling path to that outcome other than "hurr Smodur bad now", which is what I feel we're getting so far.

Also, the neutering of the charr is something that also rubbed me the wrong way. I fully acknowledge that this

is

a battle for the survival of the charr, but NOT because it's merely a larger scale civil war! IMO the threat to the survival of the charr comes Bangar selling out a large swath of his people to Jormag in a bid for the dragon's power. Even that's a stretch - the Sons of Svanir exist, yet the norn as a people survived their turning. I just assume (because we don't seem to have been told outright) that the Dominion's share of the charr is large enough that all of them turning icebrood is somehow an existential threat to the charr as a whole.

I'm over wondering where the Norn are in all of this? Jora is here trying to lead the Vigil now but what about all the Norn leaders? This is turning into more Charr stuff than Norn so I hope we get more of them, their leaders and concerns so maybe they can lend a hand? Some random seraph and mesmer portals aren't going to cut it.

[Yasai.3549]

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:yeah i think smoldur 'change' is overexagerated, sometimes i feel hes worst than bangar, hes basically straight kill anyone without any regard.

Not only that, but for an Iron Imperator, he behaves more like a Blood.Irons value more tactical pushes with Warmachines or backed up by heavy artillery over frontline combat.

But for this episode, I can't help but notice that there is a real lack of any Iron tech around.The only "Iron" thing about him within the entire episode was him asking the Commander to gather munitions and helping with a "new weapon" and then making a bomb.

And the whole Bomb thing is sketch at best, because that sort of subterfuge is more in line with Ash than Iron.

He basically had no Iron in him the entire episode, and became more and more Blood.

[White Kitsunee.4620]

@"Randulf.7614" said:

I thought the dialogue was pretty good compared to some instalments. Im also not swayed by these arguments Smodur was totally out of character. He is certainly more aggressive, but not beyond the confines of the character. He clearly has an agenda and believes he can win this, unlike previous wars vs the humans. Perhaps Jormag is manipulating him, but without Drakkar that seems less likely. I think some subtleties may have been lost without the VA

This is a good point, it makes sense that this is not as far out of character as it seems, we did know very little about him going into this episode to be fair.

That being said my problem was much more that the story was beating you over the head with, "Smodur is in the wrong!' for nearly the entire time. I don't think I would have minded the odd characterization if the story was more balanced.

[Vayne.8563]

I don't know. I've seen Smodur as more of a populist, who found a mob and got in front of them. I think he'll do whatever he thinks is necessary to get into power, and if that means acting more like blood, that's okay with him. I also think that the charr aren't acting quite like charr, because they're learning and growing. They were most like charr when they were fighting humans, but then there was an alliance that some charr were behind. Older charr, they don't always go with the times and continue to act like the charr we expect. Expect all charr or even most charr to act a certain way is bound to disappoint. We've always had characters that have acted in different ways than the rest of the race (Vekk anyone). And I'm not so sure people aren't acting like they're acting just to counterpoint Smodur and take away some of his thunder. There's politics here as well as war stuff. Just my take on it.