How to Fix Stealth

[Psycoprophet.8107]

4 sec stealth cap would be fine considering it can be up kept or reapplied imo as up keeping such a low duration would be very resource heavy to maintain.

[Svarty.8019]

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:The counter to stealth is simple, don't make players disappear but leave traces like the predator. So you can see a glimpse of where they'd be.Kind of pointless use stealth if enemy know where you are. If i play mesmer stealth is only way to survive.

... that doesn't mean that stealth couldn't be replaced. Let's just bin it!

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"cloudsareyum.8120" said:Stealth is fine, is counterable, and does not need to be fixed. If there are any changes, it should be applied to WvW only, removing stealth would kill the fun of the classes themselves, it would unbalance PvP, it would be pretty dreadful. It would be kind of nice if you could stealth more often in PvE but that's about it.

LoL at stealth being "counterable". Reveal access is practically zero, with most classes having no access to it, let alone sufficient amounts to be considered a viable counter. And if you're DE you even get to counter the counter!

Let's just say that GW2 hardly represents the industry standard with regard to stealth design. What you mean to say is that the game is designed with this particularly obnoxious version of stealth and that fixing it would require rewriting the way stealth classes work.

Would that be worthwhile? Maybe not as I'm not sure whatever they come up with would be an improvement and thief players like the class the way it is. Probably best to just leave it be.

[kash.9213]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"cloudsareyum.8120" said:Stealth is fine, is counterable, and does not need to be fixed. If there are any changes, it should be applied to WvW only, removing stealth would kill the fun of the classes themselves, it would unbalance PvP, it would be pretty dreadful. It would be kind of nice if you could stealth more often in PvE but that's about it.

LoL at stealth being "counterable". Reveal access is practically zero, with most classes having no access to it, let alone sufficient amounts to be considered a viable counter. And if you're DE you even get to counter the counter!

Let's just say that GW2 hardly represents the industry standard with regard to stealth design. What you mean to say is that the game is designed with this particularly obnoxious version of stealth and that fixing it would require rewriting the way stealth classes work.

Would that be worthwhile? Maybe not as I'm not sure whatever they come up with would be an improvement and thief players like the class the way it is. Probably best to just leave it be.

You don't have to stand there doing nothing while someone is in stealth. Industry standard probably wouldn't let you damage someone while they're in stealth and likely wouldn't leave clues on the ground stating stealth use and even in some cases, direction or orientation. Helps to observe things though.

[saerni.2584]

I’ve been following along for a while. Mostly for the laughs and such. But, I’m chiming in because I’d like to throw a little cold water on some “realistic” solutions offered by “thief mains.”

So the problem with a long duration stealth limit is, basically, that multiple skills or traits provide long duration stealth naturally. So a four second, or whatever, duration limit actually stands to make multiple skills or traits useless. It isn’t really a realistic “fix” to a “problem” that isn’t a problem. Especially as a hard baked in design where the enemy doesn’t even have to give up anything to know exactly what the upper limit of any thief’s stealth will be.

Now, I get that some upper limit is appealing to the player base. I’m not personally a fan of permastealth thief dueling—and that as a thief who likes stealth Thief battles. But, you need to realize that the reason DE even has a reveal counter is because reveal has become prevalent enough that an elite like that even makes sense.

You have the tools to fight stealth. If you don’t take those tools then you are betting your average opponent won’t be a thief using enough stealth to make you take those tools. So be it. That’s the challenge.

Speaking as a long time roamer, your build has to be built to take fights the average build can’t handle. You need to be stronger, take every advantage, and be prepared to run. If you can’t handle normal stealth, other than permastealth, then your build is the issue.

If you are fighting a permastealth just run. They can’t permastealth and chase you. They aren’t playing a normal duel. They are playing a mind game. Don’t stay and let them whittle you down.

[UNOwen.7132]

@saerni.2584 said:I’ve been following along for a while. Mostly for the laughs and such. But, I’m chiming in because I’d like to throw a little cold water on some “realistic” solutions offered by “thief mains.”

So the problem with a long duration stealth limit is, basically, that multiple skills or traits provide long duration stealth naturally. So a four second, or whatever, duration limit actually stands to make multiple skills or traits useless. It isn’t really a realistic “fix” to a “problem” that isn’t a problem. Especially as a hard baked in design where the enemy doesn’t even have to give up anything to know exactly what the upper limit of any thief’s stealth will be.

There is really only 3. Shadow Refuge, Mass Invisibility and stealth gyro. Shadow Refuge is a gimmick anyway used pretty much entirely by P/D pretty much entirely for the shadow projectile finisher, so that should probably get a rework anyway. Stealth Gyro could be an exception, iunno, give it some stealth that isnt stealth thing. Mass invisibility is really the only one that doesnt have a clean solution. But its not worth avoiding a fix for one skill.

Now, I get that some upper limit is appealing to the player base. I’m not personally a fan of permastealth thief dueling—and that as a thief who likes stealth Thief battles. But, you need to realize that the reason DE even has a reveal counter is because reveal has become prevalent enough that an elite like that even makes sense.

Thats not what the limit is for. The limit is to prevent people from permastealth bursting people who were never aware of their presence.

You have the tools to fight stealth. If you don’t take those tools then you are betting your average opponent won’t be a thief using enough stealth to make you take those tools. So be it. That’s the challenge.

This doesnt work for the actual issue, which is that you cant use the tools to fight stealth if you dont know that the stealthed guy is even there. In-combat stealth is trash, but out of combat stealth is a bit of an issue, and a duration limit would fix the latter without affecting the ofrmer.

Speaking as a long time roamer, your build has to be built to take fights the average build can’t handle. You need to be stronger, take every advantage, and be prepared to run. If you can’t handle normal stealth, other than permastealth, then your build is the issue.

If you are fighting a permastealth just run. They can’t permastealth and chase you. They aren’t playing a normal duel. They are playing a mind game. Don’t stay and let them whittle you down.

The issue isnt people going permastealth mid-combat. Because anyone trying that will just find himself downed over and over. The problem is people being permastealthed out of combat, and then killing people who never were even aware of their presence.

[Shiyo.3578]

Give some class a 3k range AOE that uncloaks everything and makes it revealed for 10 seconds.

[saerni.2584]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ve been following along for a while. Mostly for the laughs and such. But, I’m chiming in because I’d like to throw a little cold water on some “realistic” solutions offered by “thief mains.”

So the problem with a long duration stealth limit is, basically, that multiple skills or traits provide long duration stealth naturally. So a four second, or whatever, duration limit actually stands to make multiple skills or traits useless. It isn’t really a realistic “fix” to a “problem” that isn’t a problem. Especially as a hard baked in design where the enemy doesn’t even have to give up anything to know exactly what the upper limit of any thief’s stealth will be.

There is really only 3. Shadow Refuge, Mass Invisibility and stealth gyro. Shadow Refuge is a gimmick anyway used pretty much entirely by P/D pretty much entirely for the shadow projectile finisher, so that should probably get a rework anyway. Stealth Gyro could be an exception, iunno, give it some stealth that isnt stealth thing. Mass invisibility is really the only one that doesnt have a clean solution. But its not worth avoiding a fix for one skill.

Now, I get that some upper limit is appealing to the player base. I’m not personally a fan of permastealth thief dueling—and that as a thief who likes stealth Thief battles. But, you need to realize that the reason DE even has a reveal counter is because reveal has become prevalent enough that an elite like that even makes sense.

Thats not what the limit is for. The limit is to prevent people from permastealth bursting people who were never aware of their presence.

You have the tools to fight stealth. If you don’t take those tools then you are betting your average opponent won’t be a thief using enough stealth to make you take those tools. So be it. That’s the challenge.

This doesnt work for the actual issue, which is that you cant use the tools to fight stealth if you dont know that the stealthed guy

is even there

. In-combat stealth is trash, but out of combat stealth is a bit of an issue, and a duration limit would fix the latter without affecting the ofrmer.

Speaking as a long time roamer, your build has to be built to take fights the average build can’t handle. You need to be stronger, take every advantage, and be prepared to run. If you can’t handle normal stealth, other than permastealth, then your build is the issue.

If you are fighting a permastealth just run. They can’t permastealth and chase you. They aren’t playing a normal duel. They are playing a mind game. Don’t stay and let them whittle you down.

The issue isnt people going permastealth mid-combat. Because anyone trying that will just find himself downed over and over. The problem is people being permastealthed out of combat, and then killing people who never were even aware of their presence.

There’s also the stealth on heal bonus which stacks stealth on top of Hide in Shadows. Really, it’s not hard to get over 4 second of stealth. That’s like one stack of stealth.

I kind of get this obsession over “out of combat” versus “in combat.” But, I think you’re missing something important here. No one is actually permasteathing out of combat. You don’t need more than 10 seconds on approach to get a stealthy attack. Permastealth in combat is also not an issue, as I said, because it is mainly a mind game on how you approach the fight.

I can’t even remember a time when a permastealth came out of nowhere and just ganked me. Permastealth out of combat isn’t actually an issue except on paper. Who cares if they spent 20 seconds in stealth on approach or 10 seconds? The effect is the same because you don’t need permastealth to pull off a stealthy attack.

[UNOwen.7132]

@saerni.2584 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ve been following along for a while. Mostly for the laughs and such. But, I’m chiming in because I’d like to throw a little cold water on some “realistic” solutions offered by “thief mains.”

So the problem with a long duration stealth limit is, basically, that multiple skills or traits provide long duration stealth naturally. So a four second, or whatever, duration limit actually stands to make multiple skills or traits useless. It isn’t really a realistic “fix” to a “problem” that isn’t a problem. Especially as a hard baked in design where the enemy doesn’t even have to give up anything to know exactly what the upper limit of any thief’s stealth will be.

There is really only 3. Shadow Refuge, Mass Invisibility and stealth gyro. Shadow Refuge is a gimmick anyway used pretty much entirely by P/D pretty much entirely for the shadow projectile finisher, so that should probably get a rework anyway. Stealth Gyro could be an exception, iunno, give it some stealth that isnt stealth thing. Mass invisibility is really the only one that doesnt have a clean solution. But its not worth avoiding a fix for one skill.

Now, I get that some upper limit is appealing to the player base. I’m not personally a fan of permastealth thief dueling—and that as a thief who likes stealth Thief battles. But, you need to realize that the reason DE even has a reveal counter is because reveal has become prevalent enough that an elite like that even makes sense.

Thats not what the limit is for. The limit is to prevent people from permastealth bursting people who were never aware of their presence.

You have the tools to fight stealth. If you don’t take those tools then you are betting your average opponent won’t be a thief using enough stealth to make you take those tools. So be it. That’s the challenge.

This doesnt work for the actual issue, which is that you cant use the tools to fight stealth if you dont know that the stealthed guy

is even there

. In-combat stealth is trash, but out of combat stealth is a bit of an issue, and a duration limit would fix the latter without affecting the ofrmer.

Speaking as a long time roamer, your build has to be built to take fights the average build can’t handle. You need to be stronger, take every advantage, and be prepared to run. If you can’t handle normal stealth, other than permastealth, then your build is the issue.

If you are fighting a permastealth just run. They can’t permastealth and chase you. They aren’t playing a normal duel. They are playing a mind game. Don’t stay and let them whittle you down.

The issue isnt people going permastealth mid-combat. Because anyone trying that will just find himself downed over and over. The problem is people being permastealthed out of combat, and then killing people who never were even aware of their presence.

There’s also the stealth on heal bonus which stacks stealth on top of Hide in Shadows. Really, it’s not hard to get over 4 second of stealth. That’s like one stack of stealth.

Thats just a matter of picking the right duration. Instinctively I wouldve gone with 6, that should cover Hide in Shadows + stealth on heal. I think.

I kind of get this obsession over “out of combat” versus “in combat.” But, I think you’re missing something important here. No one is actually permasteathing out of combat. You don’t need more than 10 seconds on approach to get a stealthy attack. Permastealth in combat is also not an issue, as I said, because it is mainly a mind game on how you approach the fight.

Yeah except thats the issue. People absolutely are doing it. Or rather, were. Since the damage isnt there anymore people have stopped, but it certainly was a thing when the damage was there.

I can’t even remember a time when a permastealth came out of nowhere and just ganked me. Permastealth out of combat isn’t actually an issue except on paper. Who cares if they spent 20 seconds in stealth on approach or 10 seconds? The effect is the same because you don’t need permastealth to pull off a stealthy attack.

I can. Right before the patch.

[ASP.8093]

@UNOwen.7132 said:The issue isnt people going permastealth mid-combat. Because anyone trying that will just find himself downed over and over. The problem is people being permastealthed out of combat, and then killing people who never were even aware of their presence.

Killing them with what? You can't exactly open up with a 15k Backstab anymore.

[Shiyo.3578]

@ASP.8093 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:The issue isnt people going permastealth mid-combat. Because anyone trying that will just find himself downed over and over. The problem is people being permastealthed out of combat, and then killing people who never were even aware of their presence.

Killing them with what? You can't exactly open up with a 15k Backstab anymore.

Mesmers can burst 20k+ but also doesn't have perma stealth.

[kash.9213]

@saerni.2584 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ve been following along for a while. Mostly for the laughs and such. But, I’m chiming in because I’d like to throw a little cold water on some “realistic” solutions offered by “thief mains.”

So the problem with a long duration stealth limit is, basically, that multiple skills or traits provide long duration stealth naturally. So a four second, or whatever, duration limit actually stands to make multiple skills or traits useless. It isn’t really a realistic “fix” to a “problem” that isn’t a problem. Especially as a hard baked in design where the enemy doesn’t even have to give up anything to know exactly what the upper limit of any thief’s stealth will be.

There is really only 3. Shadow Refuge, Mass Invisibility and stealth gyro. Shadow Refuge is a gimmick anyway used pretty much entirely by P/D pretty much entirely for the shadow projectile finisher, so that should probably get a rework anyway. Stealth Gyro could be an exception, iunno, give it some stealth that isnt stealth thing. Mass invisibility is really the only one that doesnt have a clean solution. But its not worth avoiding a fix for one skill.

Now, I get that some upper limit is appealing to the player base. I’m not personally a fan of permastealth thief dueling—and that as a thief who likes stealth Thief battles. But, you need to realize that the reason DE even has a reveal counter is because reveal has become prevalent enough that an elite like that even makes sense.

Thats not what the limit is for. The limit is to prevent people from permastealth bursting people who were never aware of their presence.

You have the tools to fight stealth. If you don’t take those tools then you are betting your average opponent won’t be a thief using enough stealth to make you take those tools. So be it. That’s the challenge.

This doesnt work for the actual issue, which is that you cant use the tools to fight stealth if you dont know that the stealthed guy

is even there

. In-combat stealth is trash, but out of combat stealth is a bit of an issue, and a duration limit would fix the latter without affecting the ofrmer.

Speaking as a long time roamer, your build has to be built to take fights the average build can’t handle. You need to be stronger, take every advantage, and be prepared to run. If you can’t handle normal stealth, other than permastealth, then your build is the issue.

If you are fighting a permastealth just run. They can’t permastealth and chase you. They aren’t playing a normal duel. They are playing a mind game. Don’t stay and let them whittle you down.

The issue isnt people going permastealth mid-combat. Because anyone trying that will just find himself downed over and over. The problem is people being permastealthed out of combat, and then killing people who never were even aware of their presence.

There’s also the stealth on heal bonus which stacks stealth on top of Hide in Shadows. Really, it’s not hard to get over 4 second of stealth. That’s like one stack of stealth.

I kind of get this obsession over “out of combat” versus “in combat.” But, I think you’re missing something important here. No one is actually permasteathing out of combat. You don’t need more than 10 seconds on approach to get a stealthy attack. Permastealth in combat is also not an issue, as I said, because it is mainly a mind game on how you approach the fight.

I can’t even remember a time when a permastealth came out of nowhere and just ganked me. Permastealth out of combat isn’t actually an issue except on paper. Who cares if they spent 20 seconds in stealth on approach or 10 seconds? The effect is the same because you don’t need permastealth to pull off a stealthy attack.

In this current game build I agree with you and UNOwen, I can almost feel the exact point in a fight where I used to down a build and I can only adjust so much before I become a gimmick, which is why I had initially thought of a cap to deal with Stealth Attacks at least while still allowing long duration stealth but I think things feel alright mostly for now. I do think that concern should be kept in mind though over any given game build, if damage creeps back over that threshold I don't think I should be a non factor in the area one second going to a Stealth Attack the next.

[Piedplat.3597]

Stealth + burst dmg and keep stealth to wait for a other burst dmg = mean lazy game designAnyway stealth is a lazy game design in this game.

In dark age of camelot, for exemple, stealth was more realist where you cant stealth near enemies.

[cobbah.3102]

Delete all stealth problem solved, lag gone.