Addressing stealth complaints without the nerf bat

[Sobx.1758]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:[...]

Great idea. Then give each espec a skill (can be even a single one per spec!) that empties necro life force and disables shroud for certain duration. It can be pretty frustrating to face a tanky necro that just refills life force and then uses it as his health, so -following your post- it seems the best answer is to make it possible for other classes to disable that mechanic.Lets do this for other classes as well, I'm sure we can find something annoying for every single one of them, so we should be able to disable their mechanics too.

Warrior CC to axe 5 or similar dps skill has that covered.

2 skills is not worth it, we need to lock the mechanic with a single click or it's still too inconvenient and annoying. :p

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:[...]

Great idea. Then give each espec a skill (can be even a single one per spec!) that empties necro life force and disables shroud for certain duration. It can be pretty frustrating to face a tanky necro that just refills life force and then uses it as his health, so -following your post- it seems the best answer is to make it possible for other classes to disable that mechanic.Lets do this for other classes as well, I'm sure we can find something annoying for every single one of them, so we should be able to disable their mechanics too.

Warrior CC to axe 5 or similar dps skill has that covered.

2 skills is not worth it, we need to lock the mechanic with a single click or it's still too inconvenient and annoying. :p

True. New warrior spec F1 should instant defeat all opponents with a stealth skill on the bar on the entire map and lock them in combat for 36 hours.

[ASP.8093]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:True. New warrior spec F1 should instant defeat all opponents with a stealth skill on the bar on the entire map and lock them in combat for 36 hours.

All warriors get F3 Sentry Transformation. You skill bar is replaced with an auto attack, a fat heal, and a stun. Auto-apply Marked in a 2400 range area around you constantly.

Revs unlock new Veteran Supervisor spirit, which grants you 5 minutes of Righteous Indignation on swap. But if you die you have to play for the enemy team.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@ASP.8093 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:True. New warrior spec F1 should instant defeat all opponents with a stealth skill on the bar on the entire map and lock them in combat for 36 hours.

All warriors get F3 Sentry Transformation. You skill bar is replaced with an auto attack, a fat heal, and a stun. Auto-apply Marked in a 2400 range area around you constantly.

Revs unlock new Veteran Supervisor spirit, which grants you 5 minutes of Righteous Indignation on swap. But if you die you have to play for the enemy team.

Guardians become Keep Lords, but cannot move, grant iron hide and presence of the keep in a 5400 radius.

Thieves become veteran wargs. That's it. Just veteran wargs.

[Kodama.6453]

@"ZDragon.3046" said:

Engi does not really break that pattern of lacking reveals.Core Engi has 2 reveal tools: the trait "Lock on", that will reveal targets you hit, and the AoE reveal skill Detection Pulse, which is the toolbelt skill of Utility Goggles.

Scrapper lacks an own reveal skill, the one which scrapper had has been Detection Pulse, which got moved to core engi instead. And that as the toolbelt skill of Utility Goggles, which are extremely lacking right now (I don't think anyone is using that skill anymore).Holosmith also has no own reveal skill.

[Sobx.1758]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:

Engi does not really break that pattern of lacking reveals.Core Engi has 2 reveal tools: the trait "Lock on", that will reveal targets you hit, and the AoE reveal skill Detection Pulse, which is the toolbelt skill of Utility Goggles.

Scrapper lacks an own reveal skill, the one which scrapper had has been Detection Pulse, which got moved to core engi instead. And that as the toolbelt skill of Utility Goggles, which are extremely lacking right now (I don't think anyone is using that skill anymore).Holosmith also has no own reveal skill.

Technically core trait carries over to any espec as long as you pick that spec for the build. Same for core skills like sic'em. So his examples were pretty inconsistent for what he was trying to show.

It should be:"Core Ranger- Has sick emDruid -Has sick emSoulbeast -Has sick em"

Also just sprinkling reveal over multiple skills pretty much negates a whole mechanic and somehow I don't see anyone hopping on my great idea of disabling other classes' mechanics with a press of a button? Why is that?

[ASP.8093]

The problem with spreading Revealed around is that any amount that's sufficient to really swing 1v1 also probably allows 4-5 people to just completely deny most stealth builds. It's a very tricky balance to strike.

Also, like a third of the WvW map spams Marked on you — forcing a very tight and predictable timetable on actual stealth use in combat — and that hasn't really dampened the anti-thief whines on here.

[Xervite.5493]

Here's my suggestion give stealth a shimmer effect if the user moves, I've never seen 100% invisible mechanic before.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

audio cues when the stealthed person gets close and easy to spot footsteps would help out a lot. keep stealth 100% invisible.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Xervite.5493" said:Here's my suggestion give stealth a shimmer effect if the user moves, I've never seen 100% invisible mechanic before.

Then you've really didn't see a lot <.<

Also considering the type of game gw2 is, "shimmer" basically removes almost any purpose from stealth. I don't understand how anyone can think that's a good idea?

[ASP.8093]

"Stealth shimmer" is one of those things that turns into "everyone mess with your video-card settings until it becomes way more visible than intended."

[ZDragon.3046]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:

Engi does not really break that pattern of lacking reveals.Core Engi has 2 reveal tools: the trait "Lock on", that will reveal targets you hit, and the AoE reveal skill Detection Pulse, which is the toolbelt skill of Utility Goggles.

Scrapper lacks an own reveal skill, the one which scrapper had has been Detection Pulse, which got moved to core engi instead. And that as the toolbelt skill of Utility Goggles, which are extremely lacking right now (I don't think anyone is using that skill anymore).Holosmith also has no own reveal skill.

Well ill be darn then.... all the more reason to add more reveal skills under elite options imo.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Xervite.5493" said:Here's my suggestion give stealth a shimmer effect if the user moves, I've never seen 100% invisible mechanic before.

Then you've really didn't see a lot <.<

Also considering the type of game gw2 is, "shimmer" basically removes almost any purpose from stealth. I don't understand how anyone can think that's a good idea?

I mean depend on how well its doneBlade and soul does the stealth shimmer very well for its assassin class.Literally impossible to see at a distance when not moving and struggles to be seen accurately when moving and you need to be in combat range for that.

Then again that game handles stealth differently as taking any damage knocks the effect off but they have better mechanical options of getting into stealth otherthan just press 5 and dodge or press 5 and 2. They have things that when the other player makes the right choice they can be punished for. A counter that grants stealth for example.

Now this all said i dont think anet has the tech to do it well enough to match what im trying to discribe in the event you have never seen it so...... i dont think players will agree on a shimmer effect being a thing for all types of stealth.

Maybe it would be ok for a lesser stealth or non thief professions but even then thats something a lot of people probably will not agree on.

If it was up to me there would be 2 types of stealth camouflage and actual stealth.Camouflage is lesser and gained by non utility skills and combo fields... it has a shimmer effect or some kind of thing that makes it lesser.True stealth is total invisibility generally only gained from thief traits and most utility skills.

Again though most people wont agree with this ^

I say just add more reveal skills to the game and try the luck with that first. There has been a major increase in ways to enter stealth but not as drastic of an up roar in skills that reveal stealth players.

[Josh.4132]

I honestly don’t think reveal is that strong if you think about how Deadeye can remove reveal and how much mobility thief has in general. Unless you’re a ranger that has just popped Sick’em and can pew pew, that thief is 100% gonna change to short bow and get out of combat until reveal is gone. It’ll then come back and start the bs stealth, backstab, restealth chain until you’re dead.

[Josh.4132]

Also need to remember that now that damage has been nerfed, thief is now more forgiving if you make a mistake. While I understand that the idea of thief is to be squishy and hit hard, there are many traits and options which give thief so much more survivability now that that original idea is no longer true. Whether it be cleanse on evades, stealth on dodge/Heal, life steal, extra vitality etc add that to all the evades, ports, 3 dodges and stealth, then what part of that profession is now punished for making a mistake when it has so many survivability options? Especially when it only takes 2 skills to get out of combat, should the thief mess up for the 4th time and come close to dying....

[Sobx.1758]

@"Josh.4132" said:I honestly don’t think reveal is that strong if you think about how Deadeye can remove reveal and how much mobility thief has in general. Unless you’re a ranger that has just popped Sick’em and can pew pew, that thief is 100% gonna change to short bow and get out of combat until reveal is gone. It’ll then come back and start the bs stealth, backstab, restealth chain until you’re dead.

Apparently it was strong enough to create a need for a "counter-to-a-counter" button. You also claim that it's not strong, but right after that say that thief needs to run away and wait it out. How exactly is this "not strong"?

And that's also why I keep saying that if devs think there's something wrong about stealth, then they should target the precise area they think is in need of adjusting (perma/long duration stealth?) and then balance the mechanic "around itself" instead of some "you either happened to include the counter and win or you didn't so kitten you. Nvm, now we add counter to a counter, kek."

For me similar thing goes for the "reveal on hit" (when gw2 is just full of cleave/aoe abilities spammed everywhere, it just completely destroys short duration in-combat stealth along with stealth attacks, which I don't think is the problem for anyone?), "shimmer" (basically "your stealth isn't stealth anymore, so what's the point") or "reveal when nearby" (again, basically deleting short duration in-combat stealth).Maybe people just got too used to anet "shotgunning" the nerfs instead of targetting problematic areas, but I don't think that's the correct approach to balancing.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Josh.4132" said:Also need to remember that now that damage has been nerfed, thief is now more forgiving if you make a mistake. While I understand that the idea of thief is to be squishy and hit hard, there are many traits and options which give thief so much more survivability now that that original idea is no longer true. Whether it be cleanse on evades, stealth on dodge/Heal, life steal, extra vitality etc add that to all the evades, ports, 3 dodges and stealth, then what part of that profession is now punished for making a mistake when it has so many survivability options? Especially when it only takes 2 skills to get out of combat, should the thief mess up for the 4th time and come close to dying....

Thief got their dmg/healing (and bonus stealth duration from SA) reduced just like any other class.And -"cleanse on evades"- conditions weren't really hit by nerfs, so not sure how it's relevant here. You seem to be hard set on just listing as many random things as you can to paint the picture you want everyone to see regardless of facts.

Aaaaaaalso another player pretending thief can pick every trait/skill/spec at the same time and uses no resources in combat, so it can just do everything at the same time with no repercussions.

[ASP.8093]

@"Sobx.1758" said:Apparently it was strong enough to create a need for a "counter-to-a-counter" button. You also claim that it's not strong, but right after that say that thief needs to run away and wait it out. How exactly is this "not strong"?

In my short time playing Deadeye, I've never actually used my elite to counter Revealed applied by an enemy. I either use it for straight on-demand stealth or because I want to try another DJ after an awkwardly-timed dodge or missed DJ put Revealed on me.

Which isn't to say Sic 'Em is bad, just that forcing Revealed on a target isn't actually that important for Rangers trying to burst you.

(Also, Marked spam is everywhere and it does affect Meld.)

[Josh.4132]

@"Sobx.1758" said:

Apparently it was strong enough to create a need for a "counter-to-a-counter" button. You also claim that it's not strong, but right after that say that thief needs to run away and wait it out. How exactly is this "not strong"?

I mean we can pretend Dead Eye is a well thought out spec all you want, but there is no doubt the DE elite is just lol. I think anyone that has roamed can see the issues and usefulness(?) of Reveal . As for reveal not being strong, I should have said that Reveal is not as useful or impactful as it should be because not only is Reveal countered by Reveal removal but it is ALSO countered by the mobility on thief, which all good thief builds should have regardless of spec. Notice how reveal is more effective vs. engineers, ranger and to an extent mesmers when they try to use stealth to resustain?

@"Sobx.1758" said:

Thief got their dmg/healing (and bonus stealth duration from SA) reduced just like any other class.And -"cleanse on evades"- conditions weren't really hit by nerfs, so not sure how it's relevant here. You seem to be hard set on just listing as many random things as you can to paint the picture you want everyone to see regardless of facts.

I never mentioned thief's damage/healing because I think its in a good place. My point was that everything hits for far less now, meaning that thief can obviously take more hits now, as can all professions, however most other professions don't have the mobility to completely escape melee range instantly or stealth and disengage should things go wrong. As for listing random things, I was listing some of the tools thief has to sustain more, which was my entire point? Regardless of if its spread across specialisations, the fact is thief atm is not this squishy, unforgiving class it was made out to be, purely because these mechanics are now allowing it to recover from multiple mistakes and promoting play styles with few counters. I'm not saying thief should be one shot every time it accidentally wastes a dodge or gets stunned, but it should not be able to recover and survive the 3th or 4th mistake or completely leave the fight if its in any kind of danger.

I'm not sure even why you even commented because you've just shown that you disagree with me more than anything else, which is fine but then you've done nothing to show that I'm wrong in what I'm saying. My entire point was to say that thief has its unique form of sustain via mobility, stealth and evades, which atm don't have a lot of effective counters because these mechanics counter each others' counters. Reveal counters stealth, mobility counters Reveal.

@"Sobx.1758" said:

Aaaaaaalso another player pretending thief can pick every trait/skill/spec at the same time and uses no resources in combat, so it can just do everything at the same time with no repercussions.

Did I ever say "meh nerf deadeye with its triple dodge and staff 5 evades"? As for repercussions, in what way is thief punished for using any of these mechanics? At the moment the only real punishment for thief is when it spams its skills with high costs. Where as professions like Revenant, which also have a similar resource to Initiative, actually do have repercussions for using its ports and evades, except for rev its even punished for using a stun break and can be locked out of its healing skill lol lol lol.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Guards can out burst thieves lol other high sustainable spec aka tanky builds can out burst thief as well as providing more sustained damage. Warrior thee melee specialist gets out classed in melee by holo, ranger, guards etc etc lmao yeah this games certainly balanced. Thieves damage is in a fine spot lol.Give stealth a reveal .75 sec before attack connects to give opponent time to react. There stealth'd is fixed.

[Svarty.8019]

@"ASP.8093" said:

2. Called targets stay called when they become visible again.I asked for this a million years ago, you can see how influential I am.

[Svarty.8019]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Josh.4132" said:I honestly don’t think reveal is that strong if you think about how Deadeye can remove reveal and how much mobility thief has in general. Unless you’re a ranger that has just popped Sick’em and can pew pew, that thief is 100% gonna change to short bow and get out of combat until reveal is gone. It’ll then come back and start the bs stealth, backstab, restealth chain until you’re dead.

Apparently it was strong enough to create a need for a "counter-to-a-counter" button. You also claim that it's not strong, but right after that say that thief needs to run away and wait it out. How exactly is this "not strong"?

And that's also why I keep saying that

if

devs think there's something wrong about stealth, then they should target the precise area they think is in need of adjusting (perma/long duration stealth?) and then balance the mechanic "around itself" instead of some "

you either happened to include the counter and win or you didn't so kitten you. Nvm, now we add counter to a counter, kek.

"

For me similar thing goes for the "reveal on hit" (when gw2 is just full of cleave/aoe abilities spammed everywhere, it just completely destroys short duration in-combat stealth along with stealth attacks, which I don't think is the problem for anyone?), "shimmer" (basically "your stealth isn't stealth anymore, so what's the point") or "reveal when nearby" (again, basically deleting short duration in-combat stealth).Maybe people just got too used to anet "shotgunning" the nerfs instead of targetting problematic areas, but I don't think that's the correct approach to balancing.

I think that's what the OP has done with their two suggestions.

I have to say that even the complete removal of stealth from the game wouldn't prevent thieves from being insanely powerful. In the hands of skillful players, the teleports are enough to make thief uncounterable, or at least appear so, which is often enough.

I think Arenanet made an interesting decision when they allowed such huge skill differentiation to have total determination in the outcome of fights. It's resulted in this "SkillCrutch" gameplay where players rely on their skill to win fights. This may seem crazy to a lot of moderate-to-highly skilled players in that skill is something they look upon as a favourable trait. Personally, I believe that there should be more scope for randomness to take an effect in fights, throwing unskilled players a bone and giving the game a broader appeal.

[rdigeri.7935]

@"Svarty.8019" said:

I think Arenanet made an interesting decision when they allowed such huge skill differentiation to have total determination in the outcome of fights. It's resulted in this "SkillCrutch" gameplay where players rely on their skill to win fights. This may seem crazy to a lot of moderate-to-highly skilled players in that skill is something they look upon as a favourable trait. Personally, I believe that there should be more scope for randomness to take an effect in fights, throwing unskilled players a bone and giving the game a broader appeal.

I get where you're coming from, new players should have an enjoyable experience too, but i don't think it should be randomness per se as that just takes away the rewards of improving. Some games solve this problem by having "beginner" options, builds that you can play with little experience and still get rewarded, this is often what's called cheese. However these games also make those builds have diminishing returns upon improving, so if you want to get better, you'll eventually have to pick up something harder to play.

[Svarty.8019]

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@"Svarty.8019" said:

I think Arenanet made an interesting decision when they allowed such huge skill differentiation to have total determination in the outcome of fights. It's resulted in this "SkillCrutch" gameplay where players rely on their skill to win fights. This may seem crazy to a lot of moderate-to-highly skilled players in that skill is something they look upon as a favourable trait. Personally, I believe that there should be more scope for randomness to take an effect in fights, throwing unskilled players a bone and giving the game a broader appeal.

I get where you're coming from, new players should have an enjoyable experience too, but i don't think it should be randomness per se as that just takes away the rewards of improving. Some games solve this problem by having "beginner" options, builds that you can play with little experience and still get rewarded, this is often what's called cheese. However these games also make those builds have diminishing returns upon improving, so if you want to get better, you'll eventually have to pick up something harder to play.

What happens when cheese is available is that experienced, quality players accept said cheese and run that because it's the best. Why would they do otherwise? Variety?The option to choose variety over victory is a luxury that only the best players can afford.

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

For teef stealth is fine, remove it for the other classes like holo, ranger, trapper rune.

Classes like ranger , holo r high damage high substain monsters on top stealth... to much, delete stealh. Teef has stealth as an core component, since the big nerf teef dmg is much less, so stealth is in line.

In pve nobody cares anyway.

In pvp teef is still the decap / +1 unable to 1vs1 and useless in teamfights. Stealth interuppt capping node and +1 right now is noddle dmg... so stealth is fine

In wvw there are so many anti stealth mechanics which hurts teefs most.In my opinion these anti mechanics should get extend to other mechanics like,

• ranger no pet
• holo no holoyolo mode
• mes no clones
• nec no shroud
• guards no boon spam
• ...This would be fair