I think [Arcdps] statistics are flawed. Exaggerated or underestimated

[Flee.5602]

My point of view: Sometimes the DPS shown is not true. Exaggerated and underestimated.

*The DPS for attacking dying enemies should be reduced by half.

*Even this work is important: to eliminate the dying enemy. To prevent the resurrection of the enemy.

If you endlessly attack dying people. It's like hitting a fixed target. Your DPS will surge! ! !*So my opinion is: [Arcdps] A WvW patch should be added. Attack the damage of a dying person. The statistics are reduced by at least half.

（I reorganized the article. Now it looks easy to understand）

[Flee.5602]

Sorry for my english xD

[lodjur.1284]

Well I disagree. Obviously being able to filter to only show non-downed damage (or only downed damage). As more options are always nice.

More importantly, this is hardly the place for such a request. Anet didn't create Arcdps and have no power to change it. Contact the creator instead

[Fish.2769]

@lodjur.1284 said:Well I disagree. Obviously being able to filter to only show non-downed damage (or only downed damage). As more options are always nice.

More importantly, this is hardly the place for such a request. Anet didn't create Arcdps and have no power to change it. Contact the creator instead

I think he means DPS to downed enemies should be halved?

That's how i've read it anyway, nothing to do with Arcdps.

[lodjur.1284]

@Fish.2769 said:

@"lodjur.1284" said:Well I disagree. Obviously being able to filter to only show non-downed damage (or only downed damage). As more options are always nice.

More importantly, this is hardly the place for such a request. Anet didn't create Arcdps and have no power to change it. Contact the creator instead

I think he means DPS to downed enemies should be halved?

That's how i've read it anyway, nothing to do with Arcdps.

"I think the DPS plug-in statistics are flawed"

"I think the statistics of this part should be halved."

I would be very surprised

[ArchonWing.9480]

There is very high volatility, which is why you can't base everything off one fight. But if you consistently only have half the damage of the other dps, then is it just because they're dpsing downs?

Also, burst damage at the start of the fight is the real metric to go by. But most people don't know how to interpet their numbers. If you want to get the bigger picture, get the logs and upload them here; https://dps.report/

Also they do not log by default; it has to be set: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/351063966744707085/687839385764495441/arcdps_log_setup.png

[Justine.6351]

I kind of agree that downed state how and damage taken while downed should have been halfed. It would have cleaned up a lot of complaints about "hammer revs do 20k Cor every 4 seconds" type verbiage.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Flee.5602 said:Even if it is important to clean up the body (to prevent the resurrection of the dying)Yes, I recommend separating the body into neat portions and packing them into plastic bags and burying somewhere safe, in order to avoid the zombie apocalypse.

(tbh whether they are dead or dying before you get started isnt really relevant).

[Winter.5071]

@Flee.5602 said:I think the damage of attacking the dying enemy. It should be halved. Even if it is important to clean up the body (to prevent the resurrection of the dying), I think the statistics of this part should be halved.

I really fail to see how this is relevant to anything, especially since dps meters are unsupported by Anet.

[Riba.3271]

Last time I tested, which tbf was a while ago so might have changed, ARCdps doesn't count siphoning damage. So basically it will lose over 5% of your damage as bloodmagic necro. This was making bloodmagic underrated traitline for DPS builds. It also gives a little bit of corrupts due to reduced well cooldown.

But yea, it has some flaws. And you cant just look at DPS because it makes DPS scrapper look like a good build when all it does is kill downstates while not removing boons.

[Flee.5602]

@"lodjur.1284" said:

"I think the DPS plug-in statistics are flawed""I think the statistics of this part should be halved."YES

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Threather.9354 said:

But yea, it has some flaws. And you cant just look at DPS because it makes DPS scrapper look like a good build when all it does is kill downstates while not removing boons.

Well, you need to compare apples to apples for sure. You should also take into account say, a Scourge's boon strips along with their damage. And damage scrappers/burn guards ought to be compared against each other. And don't log against NPCs of course xD I'm also very aware that people just like to show off numbers. When we do guild runs, I joke with guildies that we will sabotage the fight to get the highest. ;)

And yes, I think that's why the best indicator is the bombs (not the parts where you're just chasing people down for more bags). Fortunately, arcdps also tells you who dies or res's people too.

There's many factors and you really need a lot of data. Sometimes people can also do bad because their support did badly, or went afk. But if you have 50 fights, and I'm the Firebrand where my party always wipes first and has no boons, then something is probably up if they do well when I'm not the firebrand. There's also collective failure when the whole squad does badly, and it would be fallacious to really point the finger at any one individual. Indeed, do not be like some hotshot commanders and use this as a tool to shame people. (unless they really do constantly wander off into Narnia) Leave that to the pvers with fragile egos.

[lodjur.1284]

@Threather.9354 said:Last time I tested, which tbf was a while ago so might have changed, ARCdps doesn't count siphoning damage. So basically it will lose over 5% of your damage as bloodmagic necro. This was making bloodmagic underrated traitline for DPS builds. It also gives a little bit of corrupts due to reduced well cooldown.

I think it does, at least I see stuff like vampiric presence/sigil of blood/life stealing food on my incoming damage in it.

But yea, it has some flaws. And you cant just look at DPS because it makes DPS scrapper look like a good build when all it does is kill downstates while not removing boons.

Cleaving is pretty useful tho, at least for smallscale.

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

But yea, it has some flaws. And you cant just look at DPS because it makes DPS scrapper look like a good build when all it does is kill downstates while not removing boons.

Well, you need to compare apples to apples for sure. You should also take into account say, a Scourge's boon strips along with their damage. And damage scrappers/burn guards ought to be compared against each other. And don't log against NPCs of course xD

And yes, I think that's why the best indicator is the bombs (not the parts where you're just chasing people down for more bags). Fortunately, arcdps also tells you who dies or res's people too.

There's many factors and you really need a lot of data. Sometimes people can also do bad because their support did badly, or went afk. But if you have 50 fights, and I'm the Firebrand where my party always wipes first and has no boons, then something is probably up if they do well when I'm not the firebrand. There's also collective failure when the whole squad does badly, and it would be fallacious to really point the finger at any one individual. Indeed, do not be like some hotshot commanders and use this as a tool to shame people. (unless they really do constantly wander off into Narnia)

This. Agreed completely.

Arcdps is a very powerful tool that with the log function can tell you a lot of things.

It just requires the user to know how to use it correctly.

Though of course it could use some improvements (espec the WvW version, when compared to how fantastic the tool is in PvE)

[Fish.2769]

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Fish.2769 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:Well I disagree. Obviously being able to filter to only show non-downed damage (or only downed damage). As more options are always nice.

More importantly, this is hardly the place for such a request. Anet didn't create Arcdps and have no power to change it. Contact the creator instead

I think he means DPS to downed enemies should be halved?

That's how i've read it anyway, nothing to do with Arcdps.

"I think the DPS plug-in statistics are flawed"

"I think the statistics of this part should be halved."

I would be very surprised

Never mind, i was wrong - he's also changed the title. :D

[ArchonWing.9480]

@lodjur.1284 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

But yea, it has some flaws. And you cant just look at DPS because it makes DPS scrapper look like a good build when all it does is kill downstates while not removing boons.

Well, you need to compare apples to apples for sure. You should also take into account say, a Scourge's boon strips along with their damage. And damage scrappers/burn guards ought to be compared against each other. And don't log against NPCs of course xD

And yes, I think that's why the best indicator is the bombs (not the parts where you're just chasing people down for more bags). Fortunately, arcdps also tells you who dies or res's people too.

There's many factors and you really need a lot of data. Sometimes people can also do bad because their support did badly, or went afk. But if you have 50 fights, and I'm the Firebrand where my party always wipes first and has no boons, then something is probably up if they do well when I'm not the firebrand. There's also collective failure when the whole squad does badly, and it would be fallacious to really point the finger at any one individual. Indeed, do not be like some hotshot commanders and use this as a tool to shame people. (unless they really do constantly wander off into Narnia)

This. Agreed completely.

Arcdps is a very powerful tool that with the log function can tell you a lot of things.

It just requires the user to know how to use it correctly.

Though of course it could use some improvements (espec the WvW version, when compared to how fantastic the tool is in PvE)

I'm just amazed it even works at all. The log can even show you the relative movement so you can see who's on tag. It also is able to tell how long a fight lasts even if you break combat.

Unfortunately, the program is limited by what the game can report like the aformentioned life drain and healing seems hard to read too. It just doesn't help the combat log isn't that great.

In any case though, it's a great tool for self improvement. It's just that people just use it for the wrong reasons. (eg toxicity, narcissism, etc)

[lare.5129]

@Flee.5602 said:My point of view: Sometimes the DPS shown is not true. Exaggerated and underestimated.ofc is should be not always true. May be better say: it should be 100% everywhere not true. And on some places you have something aprox true.It only analyze log info written by side people, do some specific calculation and show numbers.Summary: This is tool not supported Anet. Yes, you can use it, but no one say that you should trust everywhere that tool.

So where question?

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Well Dps is usually misleading only because people don’t truly understand how DPS works in relation to performance.

For example, If I hit all of my skills instantly at the same time, for some arbitrary amount of damage, the DPS meter could read that I did 30kDps. Likewise if I did 600,000 an arbitrary amount of seconds I could also have my DPS meter read 30,000 damage.

The idea is that DPS is a measurement of the average damage over the length of an engagement, and it means nothing if you are dealing with a counter HPS. This is why DPS isnt a 100% picture of performance.

For example, if I hit you for 10,000 damage with a skill, and you heal for 10,000 HP with a skill, you essentially did 0 damage and the only thing we traded was cooldowns.

How you should look at performance is taking the amount of damage you did, verse the opposing healing that was done over an arbitrarily small length of time, what I call DPS/HPS exchanges

A DPS/HPS exchange is just a comparison of two opposing combat logs essentially in increments of 1 second intervals

Let’s take the following exchange from the perspective of a damage dealer

S=1Player A deals 1000 damageplayer B heals 2000 HP

Exchange = 0

S=2Player A deals 3000 damagePlayer B heals 1000 HP

Exchange = 2000

S=3Player A deals 7000 DamagePlayer B heals 2000 HP

Exchange = 5000

So given the current trend, if player B has 20,000 health, Player B will die at S=9. 21,000/9= 2.3k real DPS

If you were to follow this exchange on a DPS meter, Your first hit will read 1000 DPS. Your second hit will read 2000 DPS and your 3rd hit will read 3600 DPS, and it will continue to fluctuate until it approaches 3.6k at s=9, which is an over bloated value.

This exchange method makes more sense when you have an exchange that looks like this:

S=1Player A deals 18,000 damageplayer B heals 5,000 HP

Exchange = 18,000

S=2Player A deals 0 damagePlayer B heals 8,000 HP

Exchange = 0

S=3Player A deals 0 DamagePlayer B heals 7,000 HP

Exchange = 0

Given the current trend, if player B has 20,000 health, Player B will die at S=Infinity.

In other words If you follow this exchange on a DPS meter, Your first hit will read 18,000 DPS. Your second hit will read 9,000 DPS and your 3rd hit will read 4.5k DPS, and then on the fourth hit, it will jump back up to 9000Dps. But because the opposition is counter healing for more healing than you are dealing damage, you are essentially doing nothing other than exchanging cooldowns. You’ll find that if continue averaging the DPS, you’ll find that the true DPS at S=infinity will converge to 0.

So you can see how a DPS meter can be rather misleading when you don’t think of it in terms of exchanges.

[lare.5129]

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:For example, If I hit all of my skills instantly at the same time, for some arbitrary amount of damage, the DPS meter could read that I did 30kDps. Likewise if I did 600,000 an arbitrary amount of seconds I could also have my DPS meter read 30,000 damage.bad example. If someone need know total damage done - then select option total game done.Also If you press some buttons it can be that you have fake numbers, and real damage is lower, o bigger. And this is also ok in this tool. Don't wait that any step is true in that tool. This is second issue, but no one is worry, because this tool more valid only on golem on specific place. You can see it after each patch, they we have more wrong numbers and tool charsh.

This is NOT secret, that tool get some part of lie and proximation, it get some aprox result on some place. This side tool use "as is", so if someone want create more better tool - welcome.

[lodjur.1284]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@Threather.9354 said:

But yea, it has some flaws. And you cant just look at DPS because it makes DPS scrapper look like a good build when all it does is kill downstates while not removing boons.

Well, you need to compare apples to apples for sure. You should also take into account say, a Scourge's boon strips along with their damage. And damage scrappers/burn guards ought to be compared against each other. And don't log against NPCs of course xD

And yes, I think that's why the best indicator is the bombs (not the parts where you're just chasing people down for more bags). Fortunately, arcdps also tells you who dies or res's people too.

There's many factors and you really need a lot of data. Sometimes people can also do bad because their support did badly, or went afk. But if you have 50 fights, and I'm the Firebrand where my party always wipes first and has no boons, then something is probably up if they do well when I'm not the firebrand. There's also collective failure when the whole squad does badly, and it would be fallacious to really point the finger at any one individual. Indeed, do not be like some hotshot commanders and use this as a tool to shame people. (unless they really do constantly wander off into Narnia)

This. Agreed completely.

Arcdps is a very powerful tool that with the log function can tell you a lot of things.

It just requires the user to know how to use it correctly.

Though of course it could use some improvements (espec the WvW version, when compared to how fantastic the tool is in PvE)

I'm just amazed it even works at all. The log can even show you the relative movement so you can see who's on tag. It also is able to tell how long a fight lasts even if you break combat.

Ye I personally just wish it could slow enemy information better, but it's most likely not possible.

Unfortunately, the program is limited by what the game can report like the aformentioned life drain and healing seems hard to read too. It just doesn't help the combat log isn't that great.

In any case though, it's a great tool for self improvement. It's just that people just use it for the wrong reasons. (eg toxicity, narcissism, etc)

Yes very much so and can often help discern what runes are most effective and helped at least me realize that in our group tempest clears next to 0 conditions, which was interesting.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@lare.5129 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:For example, If I hit all of my skills instantly at the same time, for some arbitrary amount of damage, the DPS meter could read that I did 30kDps. Likewise if I did 600,000 an arbitrary amount of seconds I could also have my DPS meter read 30,000 damage.bad example. If someone need know total damage done - then select option total game done.

Total Damage has nothing to do with this.

I can burst you in 1 second for 20,000 and do nothing for the remaining 9 seconds or I can do 2000 damage each second for 10 seconds. Both will have a total damage of 20,000 and both occur in the same time frame.

This is basic arithmetic. The above is a perfect example of why DPS meters can be misleading.

[lare.5129]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:I can burst you in 1 second for 20,000 and do nothing for 10 seconds or I can do 2000 damage each second for 10 seconds. Both will have a total damage of 20,000 and both occur in the same time frame.You can view total damage done the 20k, and no matter this is is done per 1 second or 10. Also there option view current dps per 1 second.

The above is a perfect example of why DPS meters can be misleading.Do you know someone who want and can do better ? me not. Yes, it should be misleading tool, created by enthusiast and not supported. And this is great that we have it.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@lare.5129 said:You can view total damage done the 20k, and no matter this is is done per 1 second or 10. Also there option view current dps per 1 second.

I think the broken English is making it difficult for me to follow what your saying.

Regardless of what your trying to say, what I said isn’t up for debate...it’s maths. If you know how to do math I’m sure you could fact check it yourself...it’s basic arithmetic.

The above is a perfect example of why DPS meters can be misleading.Do you know someone who want and can do better ? me not. Yes, it should be misleading tool, created by enthusiast and not supported. And this is great that we have it.

I mean, I was pointing out why DPS meters aren’t a 100% clear indicator of performance. True performance is measured in a variety of ways, all with degrees of error that should be accounted for. Again, a DPS meter’s purpose is to track DPS, not an indicator of performance.

[avey.4201]

pve meter in pvp is flawed....I'd say sodps doesn't win fights, top dps != top kills, top dps != countering skills/mechanics

[ArchonWing.9480]

@lodjur.1284 said:

Yes very much so and can often help discern what runes are most effective and helped at least me realize that in our group tempest clears next to 0 conditions, which was interesting.

That seems strange, since it's easy for tempest to just go into water and clear some quickly. Maybe you already have resistance?

I guess it's possible if your healing is extreme to just simply outheal it. Back in the days of yore, Diamond Skin + Wash the Pain Away was just good enough (but only for myself). Recently, Rugged Growth was bugged on ranger and I didn't even need to clear torment-- I would just outheal it. But that does bring up immobs and stuff though.

[lodjur.1284]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

Yes very much so and can often help discern what runes are most effective and helped at least me realize that in our group tempest clears next to 0 conditions, which was interesting.

That seems strange, since it's easy for tempest to just go into water and clear some quickly. Maybe you already have resistance?

I guess it's possible if your healing is extreme to just simply outheal it. Back in the days of yore, Diamond Skin + Wash the Pain Away was just good enough (but only for myself). Recently, Rugged Growth was bugged on ranger and I didn't even need to clear torment-- I would just outheal it. But that does bring up immobs and stuff though.

I meant group clear wise.

It's not even a struggle with conditions it was just interesting to find out that our tempest clears extremely few conditions for our group (ie in a normal fight we all clear roughly 125-250ish conditions personally and tempest did maybe 20-30clears on the group (size 3)). But we all have cleansing so rarely needed