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Pure "Tank" builds should not be allowed


Shiyo.3578

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@SWI.4127 said:

@SWI.4127 said:I don't really care about tank builds. It's more the cheese condi builds which are also tank because Dire/Trailblazer is too good with no drawbacks.So dire/trailblazer is meta in zergs now? Meta in 25 man guilds? Meta in 5 mans? Meta anywhere outside of solo roaming?

It must be if you say it has
no drawbacks
. This by definition mean its best in slot and used by everyone, because why shouldnt it, its too good.

I was talking about solo roaming. And yeah no drawbacks was bad wording. I still think Dire/TB are really unbalanced stat combos though. It's the best of both worlds and it makes for really boring fights.Yet if everyone would use it, no one has any use for toughness, making it incredibly wasteful in terms of its stat combo. Its only usefull if its facing lots of power. Which means... theres lots of power when solo roaming.

Hm.

Weird.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@SWI.4127 said:

@SWI.4127 said:I don't really care about tank builds. It's more the cheese condi builds which are also tank because Dire/Trailblazer is too good with no drawbacks.So dire/trailblazer is meta in zergs now? Meta in 25 man guilds? Meta in 5 mans? Meta anywhere outside of solo roaming?

It must be if you say it has
no drawbacks
. This by definition mean its best in slot and used by everyone, because why shouldnt it, its too good.

I was talking about solo roaming. And yeah no drawbacks was bad wording. I still think Dire/TB are really unbalanced stat combos though. It's the best of both worlds and it makes for really boring fights.Yet if everyone would use it, no one has any use for toughness, making it incredibly wasteful in terms of its stat combo. Its only usefull if its facing lots of power. Which means... theres lots of power when solo roaming.

Hm.

Weird.

You really believe trailblazer and dire players are suddenly going to stop using those stat sets regardless of the current meta?Must not have spent a second in wvw.

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@lodjur.1284 said:

@SWI.4127 said:I don't really care about tank builds. It's more the cheese condi builds which are also tank because Dire/Trailblazer is too good with no drawbacks.

It has drawbacks. I will list the biggest ones here.

Most condi builds need a dedicated healer to do well.

This is because they lack self-sustain, with the exception of necro (only recently, and honestly very overhyped) and ele (tho fairly meh atm), all condi builds lack sustain, which is a big problem when your gameplan is to win by attrition.

I'm not sure why you think this. Necro has the worst sustain in the game, shroud doesn't heal you. Condi rev, condi renegade(the most sustain in the game BY FAR) and condi firebrand all have the most sustain in the game and are condi builds. The only builds with nearly as much sustain as these is power holosmith, power rev, and power tempest. Most power builds have nearly zero sustain outside of holosmith, rev, and power tempest. However, power tempest either gives up tons of sustain for damage, or gives up tons of damage for sustain - something all the above condi builds, power holosmith, and power rev do not do.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@SWI.4127 said:

@SWI.4127 said:I don't really care about tank builds. It's more the cheese condi builds which are also tank because Dire/Trailblazer is too good with no drawbacks.So dire/trailblazer is meta in zergs now? Meta in 25 man guilds? Meta in 5 mans? Meta anywhere outside of solo roaming?

It must be if you say it has
no drawbacks
. This by definition mean its best in slot and used by everyone, because why shouldnt it, its too good.

I was talking about solo roaming. And yeah no drawbacks was bad wording. I still think Dire/TB are really unbalanced stat combos though. It's the best of both worlds and it makes for really boring fights.Yet if everyone would use it, no one has any use for toughness, making it incredibly wasteful in terms of its stat combo. Its only usefull if its facing lots of power. Which means... theres lots of power when solo roaming.

Hm.

Weird.

Well, guards and siege! Also, just because the difference isn't absolute doesn't mean there isn't a disparity.

Also, there isn't another stat that has condi/expertise/vit. So you might as well grab the toughness.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

@SWI.4127 said:I don't really care about tank builds. It's more the cheese condi builds which are also tank because Dire/Trailblazer is too good with no drawbacks.

It has drawbacks. I will list the biggest ones here.

Most condi builds need a dedicated healer to do well.

This is because they lack self-sustain, with the exception of necro (only recently, and honestly very overhyped) and ele (tho fairly meh atm), all condi builds lack sustain, which is a big problem when your gameplan is to win by attrition.

I'm not sure why you think this. Necro has the worst sustain in the game, shroud doesn't heal you. Condi rev, condi renegade(the most sustain in the game BY FAR) and condi firebrand all have the most sustain in the game and are condi builds. The only builds with nearly as much sustain as these is power holosmith, power rev, and power tempest. Most power builds have nearly zero sustain outside of holosmith, rev, and power tempest. However, power tempest either gives up tons of sustain for damage, or gives up tons of damage for sustain - something all the above condi builds, power holosmith, and power rev do not do.

Condi herald has the dragon heal, which I hate and would love to see nuked. However in a smallscale setting, especially against ranged it has bad sustain. It

Condi revenant/renegade (as those are the most similar) has sustain unless you're in melee with 5 enemies with tormenting runes. That's extremely risky, with a medium reward. Doesn't feel like a problem.

But if your argument is that healing for at most 2k/second, when you're in MELEE on a build with

Close to 0 mobility

Almost no stab

Awful stunbreaks

Is broken then idk what to say really. I guess if you're fighting npcs it's pretty broken sustain...

Condi necro with death magic and/or spite can get pretty sick sustain, espec 1v1. There's a ton of variants, a rather common tanky one is with Unholy Sanctuary+Signets of Suffering+Signet of Vampirism, can heal like 800/sec in shroud.

Condi firebrand has awful sustain. Condi guard by default is locked into Virtues+Zeal neither offers sustain. The firebrand traitline also doesn't provide very much with low healing power.

So

Power Ranger (and elite specs) has no sustain?

Power Warrior (and spellbreaker) has no sustain?

Power Scrapper has no sustain?

Power thief/mes (and relevant elite specs) doesn't have enough mobility to reset every fight (which is like sustain but better)?

Just from the top of my head

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@SWI.4127 said:

@SWI.4127 said:I don't really care about tank builds. It's more the cheese condi builds which are also tank because Dire/Trailblazer is too good with no drawbacks.So dire/trailblazer is meta in zergs now? Meta in 25 man guilds? Meta in 5 mans? Meta anywhere outside of solo roaming?

It must be if you say it has
no drawbacks
. This by definition mean its best in slot and used by everyone, because why shouldnt it, its too good.

I was talking about solo roaming. And yeah no drawbacks was bad wording. I still think Dire/TB are really unbalanced stat combos though. It's the best of both worlds and it makes for really boring fights.Yet if everyone would use it, no one has any use for toughness, making it incredibly wasteful in terms of its stat combo. Its only usefull if its facing lots of power. Which means... theres lots of power when solo roaming.

Hm.

Weird.

Well, guards and siege! Also, just because the difference isn't absolute doesn't mean there isn't a disparity.

I hope this part is sarcasm.

Also, there isn't another stat that has condi/expertise/vit. So you might as well grab the toughness.

You don't really need expertise on most condi builds. Balthazar/Tormenting(or some other duration runes, but bleed/poison is generally long enough anyway) would be enough if the expertise didn't come on a statcombo with toughness.

There's a reason you don't hear anyone whine about shaman stats, they should be pretty sick in a condi meta (Vit+condi+Healing). But since we're still in a power meta (like we've always been), toughness is great.

Power is still way way way more common than condi in all group sizes (not even saying its better (which it is)).

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@lodjur.1284 said:

@SWI.4127 said:

@SWI.4127 said:I don't really care about tank builds. It's more the cheese condi builds which are also tank because Dire/Trailblazer is too good with no drawbacks.So dire/trailblazer is meta in zergs now? Meta in 25 man guilds? Meta in 5 mans? Meta anywhere outside of solo roaming?

It must be if you say it has
no drawbacks
. This by definition mean its best in slot and used by everyone, because why shouldnt it, its too good.

I was talking about solo roaming. And yeah no drawbacks was bad wording. I still think Dire/TB are really unbalanced stat combos though. It's the best of both worlds and it makes for really boring fights.Yet if everyone would use it, no one has any use for toughness, making it incredibly wasteful in terms of its stat combo. Its only usefull if its facing lots of power. Which means... theres lots of power when solo roaming.

Hm.

Weird.

Well, guards and siege! Also, just because the difference isn't absolute doesn't mean there isn't a disparity.

I hope this part is sarcasm.

Oh idk, it was kinda suggesting that you have to deal with direct damage somewhere even if everyone were running condi.

Also, there isn't another stat that has condi/expertise/vit. So you might as well grab the toughness.

You don't really need expertise on most condi builds. Balthazar/Tormenting(or some other duration runes, but bleed/poison is generally long enough anyway) would be enough if the expertise didn't come on a statcombo with toughness.

There's a reason you don't hear anyone whine about shaman stats, they should be pretty sick in a condi meta (Vit+condi+Healing). But since we're still in a power meta (like we've always been), toughness is great.

Power is still way way way more common than condi in all group sizes (not even saying its better (which it is)).

I mean nobody whines about cleric either...

Healing power tends to scale badly with most things without going all out on. Also Shaman isn't condi primary. Expertise isn't needed, but that sorta drives their point home. It's more for cover condis anyways.

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@SWI.4127 said:

@SWI.4127 said:I don't really care about tank builds. It's more the cheese condi builds which are also tank because Dire/Trailblazer is too good with no drawbacks.So dire/trailblazer is meta in zergs now? Meta in 25 man guilds? Meta in 5 mans? Meta anywhere outside of solo roaming?

It must be if you say it has
no drawbacks
. This by definition mean its best in slot and used by everyone, because why shouldnt it, its too good.

I was talking about solo roaming. And yeah no drawbacks was bad wording. I still think Dire/TB are really unbalanced stat combos though. It's the best of both worlds and it makes for really boring fights.Yet if everyone would use it, no one has any use for toughness, making it incredibly wasteful in terms of its stat combo. Its only usefull if its facing lots of power. Which means... theres lots of power when solo roaming.

Hm.

Weird.

Well, guards and siege! Also, just because the difference isn't absolute doesn't mean there isn't a disparity.

I hope this part is sarcasm.

Oh idk, it was kinda suggesting that you have to deal with direct damage somewhere even if everyone were running condi.

Guards. Lol.

Also, there isn't another stat that has condi/expertise/vit. So you might as well grab the toughness.

You don't really need expertise on most condi builds. Balthazar/Tormenting(or some other duration runes, but bleed/poison is generally long enough anyway) would be enough if the expertise didn't come on a statcombo with toughness.

There's a reason you don't hear anyone whine about shaman stats, they should be pretty sick in a condi meta (Vit+condi+Healing). But since we're still in a power meta (like we've always been), toughness is great.

Power is still way way way more common than condi in all group sizes (not even saying its better (which it is)).

I mean nobody whines about cleric either...

Exactly.

Healing power tends to scale badly with most things without going all out on. Also Shaman isn't condi primary. Expertise isn't needed, but that sorta drives their point home. It's more for cover condis anyways.

It doesn't. Healing power scales linearly. Actually, the first point of healing power is better than the second point etc if you measure it as a percentual increase. So idk why people keep spreading that kinda myth.

Shaman or Plaguedoctor would definitively be the best stat combo if condi was dominating. Plaguedoctor even gives as much condi dmg as trailblazer with big vitality so...

Cover condis are to prevent clears, their duration is usually long enough without expertise.

Trailblazer/Dire are used because power is dominant and you get shredded in seconds without the toughness. Not because "there's no other stats".

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@lodjur.1284 said:

@SWI.4127 said:

@SWI.4127 said:I don't really care about tank builds. It's more the cheese condi builds which are also tank because Dire/Trailblazer is too good with no drawbacks.So dire/trailblazer is meta in zergs now? Meta in 25 man guilds? Meta in 5 mans? Meta anywhere outside of solo roaming?

It must be if you say it has
no drawbacks
. This by definition mean its best in slot and used by everyone, because why shouldnt it, its too good.

I was talking about solo roaming. And yeah no drawbacks was bad wording. I still think Dire/TB are really unbalanced stat combos though. It's the best of both worlds and it makes for really boring fights.Yet if everyone would use it, no one has any use for toughness, making it incredibly wasteful in terms of its stat combo. Its only usefull if its facing lots of power. Which means... theres lots of power when solo roaming.

Hm.

Weird.

Well, guards and siege! Also, just because the difference isn't absolute doesn't mean there isn't a disparity.

I hope this part is sarcasm.

Oh idk, it was kinda suggesting that you have to deal with direct damage somewhere even if everyone were running condi.

Guards. Lol.

I mean, siege exists too, no matter where you go. But that's a moot point because it does not require everyone to run condi to suggest it is better than power. Something about hyperbole.

Healing power tends to scale badly with most things without going all out on. Also Shaman isn't condi primary. Expertise isn't needed, but that sorta drives their point home. It's more for cover condis anyways.

It doesn't. Healing power scales linearly. Actually, the first point of healing power is better than the second point etc if you measure it as a percentual increase. So idk why people keep spreading that kinda myth.

I dunno, you were the one that brought healing power up. With the nerfs to healing scaling, it's even more irrelevant to many builds besides full on healers.

Shaman or Plaguedoctor would definitively be the best stat combo if condi was dominating. Plaguedoctor even gives as much condi dmg as trailblazer with big vitality so...

Cover condis are to prevent clears, their duration is usually long enough without expertise.

That really depends on what build, and rapidness of condi application. Burn guard for example, has mostly short condi application of anything that's not burn.

Plaguedoctor has points wasted on concentration which isn't useful for a lot of classes. Regardless of what you think of expertise, concentration is pretty weak.

Trailblazer/Dire are used because power is dominant and you get shredded in seconds without the toughness. Not because "there's no other stats".

I guess everyone that runs marauder gets shredded in seconds? And what other stats would you run? It's really just 2 other stats (Shaman/Plaguedoctor)

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@SWI.4127 said:

@SWI.4127 said:I don't really care about tank builds. It's more the cheese condi builds which are also tank because Dire/Trailblazer is too good with no drawbacks.So dire/trailblazer is meta in zergs now? Meta in 25 man guilds? Meta in 5 mans? Meta anywhere outside of solo roaming?

It must be if you say it has
no drawbacks
. This by definition mean its best in slot and used by everyone, because why shouldnt it, its too good.

I was talking about solo roaming. And yeah no drawbacks was bad wording. I still think Dire/TB are really unbalanced stat combos though. It's the best of both worlds and it makes for really boring fights.Yet if everyone would use it, no one has any use for toughness, making it incredibly wasteful in terms of its stat combo. Its only usefull if its facing lots of power. Which means... theres lots of power when solo roaming.

Hm.

Weird.

Well, guards and siege! Also, just because the difference isn't absolute doesn't mean there isn't a disparity.

I hope this part is sarcasm.

Oh idk, it was kinda suggesting that you have to deal with direct damage somewhere even if everyone were running condi.

Guards. Lol.

I mean, siege exists too, no matter where you go. But that's a moot point because it does not require everyone to run condi to suggest it is better than power. Something about hyperbole.

Well it would certainly help your cause if a majority ran conditions. But an absolutely overwhelming majority is power.

Healing power tends to scale badly with most things without going all out on. Also Shaman isn't condi primary. Expertise isn't needed, but that sorta drives their point home. It's more for cover condis anyways.

It doesn't. Healing power scales linearly. Actually, the first point of healing power is better than the second point etc if you measure it as a percentual increase. So idk why people keep spreading that kinda myth.

I dunno, you were the one that brought healing power up. With the nerfs to healing scaling, it's even more irrelevant to many builds besides full on healers.

Nope you suggested it was useless in low numbers. Which you're now doubling down on even though it's still wrong.

Shaman or Plaguedoctor would definitively be the best stat combo if condi was dominating. Plaguedoctor even gives as much condi dmg as trailblazer with big vitality so...

Cover condis are to prevent clears, their duration is usually long enough without expertise.

That really depends on what build, and rapidness of condi application. Burn guard for example, has mostly short condi application of anything that's not burn.

No they don't lol.

Then again burnguard doesn't have a ton of covers.

Only really cripple and vuln (and possibly doom sigil) all of which have long durations.

Plaguedoctor has points wasted on concentration which isn't useful for a lot of classes.

Ye like

Resistance on rev is bad

Stability on guardian is bad

Protection on ele is bad

Etc

Trailblazer/Dire are used because power is dominant and you get shredded in seconds without the toughness. Not because "there's no other stats".

I guess everyone that runs marauder gets shredded in seconds?

Well that would certainly make a case for power dmg being too high wouldn't it? Given that toughness only helps vs power.

Marauder vs marauder is actually either incredibly bursty or involves very strong non-stat defenses, which few condi traitlines/weapons have.

You can't make the argument that trailblazer/dire is overpowered without saying that either

  1. Power is overpowered
  2. Condi builds simply shouldn't exist

So ye...

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Well it would certainly help your cause if a majority ran conditions.

Why yes, but the breakpoint is definitely not "everyone runs conditions".

Nope you suggested it was useless in low numbers.

It basically is. If you invest say, 300 healing power, you'll get an extra 37.5 health/s when it comes to regen, for example. If you put that into precision, you would get about 14% crit. You have to be a full on healer for it to accomplish much, except for some builds that do have things that scale well with healing power. But a lot of that was nerfed.

Ye like

Resistance on rev is bad

Stability on guardian is bad

Protection on ele is bad

Etc

Eh? Do you really need boon duration to spam resistance on a rev? All of these classes literally crap these things out.

If you're taking, I dunno, 300 concentration, you'll get 1s more of stab for Stand Your Ground. You're usually only going to find support classes (minstrel ones) that take a lot of concentration because they have no use for any offensive stat whatsoever. I guess cover boons can be a thing.

Well that would certainly make a case for power dmg being too high wouldn't it? Given that toughness only helps vs power.

No, it would mean power damage is too low if people take no toughness and still don't die to power damage. Not that I believe that myself, but no, there would be no such conclusion.

You can't make the argument that trailblazer/dire is overpowered without saying that either

Power is overpowered

Condi builds simply shouldn't exist

I'm not even sure why condis can only exist with these 2 stats, but ok.

I'm not really saying either power or condi is better btw. It's just that I don't accept the requirement of "everyone must run condi" or "everyone is running plaguedoctors" to indicate condi would be better. By that logic, we would have to have everyone power only to suggest power is better which might be true large scale, but with weird things like burn guard running around, I wouldn't know anymore. That and power is dominant in large scale for reasons other than stats too....

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condi is scary when you don't know how to counter it.. power is always scary. it's pretty much the same in every game i've ever played that has pvp.what's worse is those who aren't really affected by any of those(yes they do exist).

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@"ArchonWing.9480" said:

Well it would certainly help your cause if a majority ran conditions.

Why yes, but the breakpoint is definitely not "everyone runs conditions".

I never said it was. But

Nope you suggested it was useless in low numbers.

It basically is. If you invest say, 300 healing power, you'll get an extra 37.5 health/s when it comes to regen, for example. If you put that into precision, you would get about 14% crit. You have to be a full on healer for it to accomplish much, except for some builds that do have things that scale well with healing power. But a lot of that was nerfed.

And 1500 healing power is 187.5/sec

Stacking it doesn't magically make the stat better.

37.5 hp/sec from just regen isn't useless.

Ye like

Resistance on rev is bad

Stability on guardian is bad

Protection on ele is bad

Etc

Eh? Do you really need boon duration to spam resistance on a rev? All of these classes literally kitten these things out.

You def can't get full uptime without, so it's useful, if not necessary.

If you're taking, I dunno, 300 concentration, you'll get 1s more of stab for Stand Your Ground. You're usually only going to find support classes (minstrel ones) that take a lot of concentration because they have no use for any offensive stat whatsoever. I guess cover boons can be a thing.

1 sec extra stab does seem pretty nice.

Well that would certainly make a case for power dmg being too high wouldn't it? Given that toughness only helps vs power.

No, it would mean power damage is too low if people take no toughness and still don't die to power damage. Not that I believe that myself, but no, there would be no such conclusion.

Noone talked about not dying, we were discussing the speed of dying.

You can't make the argument that trailblazer/dire is overpowered without saying that either

Power is overpowered

Condi builds simply shouldn't exist

I'm not even sure why condis can only exist with these 2 stats, but ok.

Condi needs to survive long enough to start doing damage. Power does it's damage much much faster.

I'm not really saying either power or condi is better btw. It's just that I don't accept the requirement of "everyone must run condi" or "everyone is running plaguedoctors" to indicate condi would be better. By that logic, we would have to have everyone power only to suggest power is better which might be true large scale, but with weird things like burn guard running around, I wouldn't know anymore. That and power is dominant in large scale for reasons other than stats too....

I never said it is a requirement, but realistically a majority should be running it, if it's as much better as people claim. Yet this is not the case.

If a majority were running condi builds, then plaguedoctor would be better than trailblazer (espec as the expertise would be wasted from everyone overloading on clears in such a meta).

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@lodjur.1284 said:

@"ArchonWing.9480" said:

Well it would certainly help your cause if a majority ran conditions.

Why yes, but the breakpoint is definitely not "everyone runs conditions".

I never said it was. But

That's what the topic was in, before you replied.

Nope you suggested it was useless in low numbers.

It basically is. If you invest say, 300 healing power, you'll get an extra 37.5 health/s when it comes to regen, for example. If you put that into precision, you would get about 14% crit. You have to be a full on healer for it to accomplish much, except for some builds that do have things that scale well with healing power. But a lot of that was nerfed.

And 1500 healing power is 187.5/sec

Stacking it doesn't magically make the stat better.

37.5 hp/sec from just regen isn't useless.

Uhh.... that's still 167.5 vs 317.5 total; that's nearly twice as much healing going on. I picked regen because it is something that scales well with healing power as an example. An actual support such as firebrand, scrapper, or tempest, is going to have all kinds of sources of healing while someone more focused on damage isn't. You should also note most things that do scale well with healing power are usually group heals, so trying to invest even a few hundred stats into healing power for self-sustain besides on (i dunno, eles?) is not an efficient use of stats.

It would just be more effective to dump points in toughness as long as there are some power users around. Plaguedoctor and stuff sounds good on paper, but in practice, it's really not. Add in the fact that even if power or condi were objectively superior somehow, not everyone would follow this meta anyways.

And that is the point of my quip about guards and siege. Even if we pretend everyone plays a condi build, you'd need to defend against direct damage somehow. TB just gives a lot of bang for your buck even if sometimes a stat is wasted, while stuff like shaman/plaguedoctors is just ignored because stats are most likely irrelevant most of the time anyways.

I mean, I would love something like condi/vit/expertise/ or condi/vit/expertise/concentration

Ye like

Resistance on rev is bad

Stability on guardian is bad

Protection on ele is bad

Etc

Eh? Do you really need boon duration to spam resistance on a rev? All of these classes literally kitten these things out.

You def can't get full uptime without, so it's useful, if not necessary.

If you're taking, I dunno, 300 concentration, you'll get 1s more of stab for Stand Your Ground. You're usually only going to find support classes (minstrel ones) that take a lot of concentration because they have no use for any offensive stat whatsoever. I guess cover boons can be a thing.

1 sec extra stab does seem pretty nice.

So is 1 extra second of cripple or especially immob; but w/e.

Well that would certainly make a case for power dmg being too high wouldn't it? Given that toughness only helps vs power.

No, it would mean power damage is too low if people take no toughness and still don't die to power damage. Not that I believe that myself, but no, there would be no such conclusion.

Noone talked about not dying, we were discussing the speed of dying.

Why are we splitting hairs again over dying vs "shredded in a few seconds"; it should be pretty clear I didn't mean "die over time". But fine, I can rephrase it to "No, it would mean power damage is too low if people take no toughness and still don't die get shredded in a few seconds to power damage"

You can't make the argument that trailblazer/dire is overpowered without saying that either

Power is overpowered

Condi builds simply shouldn't exist

I'm not even sure why condis can only exist with these 2 stats, but ok.

Condi needs to survive long enough to start doing damage. Power does it's damage much much faster.

Now that is true to a certain extent.

I'm not really saying either power or condi is better btw. It's just that I don't accept the requirement of "everyone must run condi" or "everyone is running plaguedoctors" to indicate condi would be better. By that logic, we would have to have everyone power only to suggest power is better which might be true large scale, but with weird things like burn guard running around, I wouldn't know anymore. That and power is dominant in large scale for reasons other than stats too....

I never said it is a requirement, but realistically a majority should be running it, if it's as much better as people claim. Yet this is not the case.

It's a direct response to

"Condi builds simply shouldn't exist"

in regards to dire/trailblazer. Though tbh I don't really get what you were getting at all.

If a majority were running condi builds, then plaguedoctor would be better than trailblazer (espec as the expertise would be wasted from everyone overloading on clears in such a meta).

The zerg meta at the very least IS overloading on cleanses. Support Scrapper is a huge part of it, and it cleanses like no other (Along with Support FB and your random shoutbreakers and tempests). We also had permeating wrath nerfed by a good chunk lately. (though burn guard is still rather strong)

Heck, http://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW Every non-scourge meta build does mostly cleanses, except for FB which does a lot of everything. If Med Kit Scrapper and its ability to cleanse hundreds if not thousands of condis every fight didn't exist, a lot of things would change.

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:

Well it would certainly help your cause if a majority ran conditions.

Why yes, but the breakpoint is definitely not "everyone runs conditions".

I never said it was. But

That's what the topic was in, before you replied.

Nope you suggested it was useless in low numbers.

It basically is. If you invest say, 300 healing power, you'll get an extra 37.5 health/s when it comes to regen, for example. If you put that into precision, you would get about 14% crit. You have to be a full on healer for it to accomplish much, except for some builds that do have things that scale well with healing power. But a lot of that was nerfed.

And 1500 healing power is 187.5/sec

Stacking it doesn't magically make the stat better.

37.5 hp/sec from just regen isn't useless.

Uhh.... that's still 167.5 vs 317.5 total; that's nearly twice as much healing going on. I picked regen because it is something that scales well with healing power as an example. An actual support such as firebrand, scrapper, or tempest, is going to have all kinds of sources of healing while someone more focused on damage isn't. You should also note most things that do scale well with healing power are usually group heals, so trying to invest even a few hundred stats into healing power for self-sustain besides on (i dunno, eles?) is not an efficient use of stats.

More of a stat gives more, who would've thought.

Doesn't mean that the scaling would be exponential (or some other type of function) that would somehow cause low amounts to provide comparatively less benefits than high amounts.

The jump from 0>500 healing power is %ually bigger than the jump from 500>1000.

Survival time is just hp/(dps - hps) increasing hps can be just as effective as increasing hp or decreasing dps.

After 80 secs of fighting (assuming no overhealing, which is slightly unrealistic but so is only measuring regen) 37.5 hp/sec beats out 3k hp.

In fact it's quite often correct to run trailblazer+apo/settler when solo on some condi builds. Over tb+dire. Depending on stuff like base hp, scaling, gameplan, mobility etc

It would just be more effective to dump points in toughness as long as there are some power users around. Plaguedoctor and stuff sounds good on paper, but in practice, it's really not. Add in the fact that even if power or condi were objectively superior somehow, not everyone would follow this meta anyways.

If power ever got so weak that only 20-30% used it, I would swap to plaguedoctor/shaman (or a combination of plague/tb possibly) in a heartbeat on all my condi builds.

Because such a situation would mean that

  1. Condi builds would be far more common, clearly what once should prioritize fighting against.
  2. In a world where only 20-30% use power, it's wild be weak enough that one could beat most of them with minimal investment.

However, we don't live in that world and toughness is by far the strongest defensive stat on most builds.

And that is the point of my quip about guards and siege. Even if we pretend everyone plays a condi build, you'd need to defend against direct damage somehow.

You def wouldn't invest any stats into anti guard tech, most power builds have little to no toughness atm.

Ye like

Resistance on rev is bad

Stability on guardian is bad

Protection on ele is bad

Etc

Eh? Do you really need boon duration to spam resistance on a rev? All of these classes literally kitten these things out.

You def can't get full uptime without, so it's useful, if not necessary.

If you're taking, I dunno, 300 concentration, you'll get 1s more of stab for Stand Your Ground. You're usually only going to find support classes (minstrel ones) that take a lot of concentration because they have no use for any offensive stat whatsoever. I guess cover boons can be a thing.

1 sec extra stab does seem pretty nice.

So is 1 extra second of cripple or especially immob; but w/e.

Condi clears are slightly more common than boon removal.

Well that would certainly make a case for power dmg being too high wouldn't it? Given that toughness only helps vs power.

No, it would mean power damage is too low if people take no toughness and still don't die to power damage. Not that I believe that myself, but no, there would be no such conclusion.

Noone talked about not dying, we were discussing the speed of dying.

Why are we splitting hairs again over dying vs "shredded in a few seconds"; it should be pretty clear I didn't mean "die over time". But fine, I can rephrase it to "No, it would mean power damage is too low if people take no toughness and still don't die get shredded in a few seconds to power damage"

Which isn't the case. Marauder builds kill each other in seconds outside of active defenses (which most condi builds can't afford)

You can't make the argument that trailblazer/dire is overpowered without saying that either

Power is overpowered

Condi builds simply shouldn't exist

I'm not even sure why condis can only exist with these 2 stats, but ok.

Condi needs to survive long enough to start doing damage. Power does it's damage much much faster.

Now that is true to a certain extent.

Hence it needs toughness, or power damage needs to go way down.

Condi being more tanky is part of the tradeoffs between the two.

I'm not really saying either power or condi is better btw. It's just that I don't accept the requirement of "everyone must run condi" or "everyone is running plaguedoctors" to indicate condi would be better. By that logic, we would have to have everyone power only to suggest power is better which might be true large scale, but with weird things like burn guard running around, I wouldn't know anymore. That and power is dominant in large scale for reasons other than stats too....

I never said it is a requirement, but realistically a majority should be running it, if it's as much better as people claim. Yet this is not the case.

It's a direct response to

"Condi builds simply shouldn't exist"

in regards to dire/trailblazer. Though tbh I don't really get what you were getting at all.

If a majority were running condi builds, then plaguedoctor would be better than trailblazer (espec as the expertise would be wasted from everyone overloading on clears in such a meta).

Exactly what I said

In a fight of trailblazer vs plaguedoctor where both builds have reasonable clears. Plaguedoctor wins hands down, even more so in group fights. It gives everything you want against condi, yet noone runs it. Because defending against power is more important.

The zerg meta at the very least IS overloading on cleanses. Support Scrapper is a huge part of it, and it cleanses like no other (Along with Support FB and your random shoutbreakers and tempests). We also had permeating wrath nerfed by a good chunk lately. (though burn guard is still rather strong)

These builds would be used even if there was 0 condition builds. The strongest healers also happen to have the best clears.

Also yes burnguard is unique in a lot of ways. Permeating is so strong by itself in an AoE cap meta because it can stack such an absurd amount of condis in such a small time.

Changing it's duration changed nothing as in the situations where permeating works, if it even got to half it's duration the target is generally dead.

If any build could do similar amounts of condi dmg in any other environment, it would be broken.

Also the point was more directed at smallscale, where cleansing sigil+1-2 traits/skills is more than enough.

Heck, http://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW Every non-scourge meta build does mostly cleanses, except for FB which does a lot of everything. If Med Kit Scrapper and its ability to cleanse hundreds if not thousands of condis every fight didn't exist, a lot of things would change.

Zerg situations aren't really relevant in a conversation about trailblazer tbh, the statcombo is only at all relevant on burnguard there.

But even if it was, they don't overload on clears to deal with condi, they do it because immob (and to a much lesser fear/taunt/chill etc) is a death sentence in those environments. Also because the opportunity cost is next to 0.

Also outside of zergs at least, firebrand is far stronger against condi than scrapper.

Anyway to sum all this up before it gets even more off topic. Condi gets "better" stat combos because they have bigger tradeoffs other places and need more time.

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@lodjur.1284 said:

Well it would certainly help your cause if a majority ran conditions.

Why yes, but the breakpoint is definitely not "everyone runs conditions".

I never said it was. But

That's what the topic was in, before you replied.

Nope you suggested it was useless in low numbers.

It basically is. If you invest say, 300 healing power, you'll get an extra 37.5 health/s when it comes to regen, for example. If you put that into precision, you would get about 14% crit. You have to be a full on healer for it to accomplish much, except for some builds that do have things that scale well with healing power. But a lot of that was nerfed.

And 1500 healing power is 187.5/sec

Stacking it doesn't magically make the stat better.

37.5 hp/sec from just regen isn't useless.

Uhh.... that's still 167.5 vs 317.5 total; that's nearly twice as much healing going on. I picked regen because it is something that scales well with healing power as an example. An actual support such as firebrand, scrapper, or tempest, is going to have all kinds of sources of healing while someone more focused on damage isn't. You should also note most things that do scale well with healing power are usually group heals, so trying to invest even a few hundred stats into healing power for self-sustain besides on (i dunno, eles?) is not an efficient use of stats.

More of a stat gives more, who would've thought.

Doesn't mean that the scaling would be exponential (or some other type of function) that would somehow cause low amounts to provide comparatively less benefits than high amounts.

Lol it doesn't subtract stats, sure. And never said it was exponential.

The jump from 0>500 healing power is %ually bigger than the jump from 500>1000.

? It scales linearly.

Survival time is just hp/(dps - hps) increasing hps can be just as effective as increasing hp or decreasing dps.

After 80 secs of fighting (assuming no overhealing, which is slightly unrealistic but so is only measuring regen) 37.5 hp/sec beats out 3k hp.

Assuming you have a fight that even lasts that long. I would take that 3000 health or 300 tough any day of the week esp if it stops me from being 2-3 shot.

It would just be more effective to dump points in toughness as long as there are some power users around. Plaguedoctor and stuff sounds good on paper, but in practice, it's really not. Add in the fact that even if power or condi were objectively superior somehow, not everyone would follow this meta anyways.

If power ever got so weak that only 20-30% used it, I would swap to plaguedoctor/shaman (or a combination of plague/tb possibly) in a heartbeat on all my condi builds.

Suit yourself.

Because such a situation would mean that

Condi builds would be far more common, clearly what once should prioritize fighting against.In a world where only 20-30% use power, it's wild be weak enough that one could beat most of them with minimal investment.

I mean, there's still the potential of losing 20-30% of the time. If only 20% of people ran condi, there's a good chance you would still die if you didn't pack any clears even if they were weaker.

You def wouldn't invest any stats into anti guard tech, most power builds have little to no toughness atm.

Well, I know, they must all die really fast.

Condi clears are slightly more common than boon removal.

Well, that might be true.

Which isn't the case. Marauder builds kill each other in seconds outside of active defenses (which most condi builds can't afford)

I can't really say I've seen that happen since the balance patch beyond some really glassy builds that are more likely zerker. (wouldn't zerker be a better option?). But I dunno, does that mean power builds have to basically all build glass to do anything?

What in particular about condi builds that somehow prevents them from taking active defenses?

These builds would be used even if there was 0 condition builds. The strongest healers also happen to have the best clears.

True of Firebrand, somewhat true of Scrapper (though honestly without stealth not really that special); Purity of Purpose is busted. And shout warrior's been around forever and has been on and off. It's more for condi remov (esp that immob spam lately)

Also yes burnguard is unique in a lot of ways. Permeating is so strong by itself in an AoE cap meta because it can stack such an absurd amount of condis in such a small time.

Changing it's duration changed nothing as in the situations where permeating works, if it even got to half it's duration the target is generally dead.

If any build could do similar amounts of condi dmg in any other environment, it would be broken.

Well, guardian burn has been busted throughout the game.

Also the point was more directed at smallscale, where cleansing sigil+1-2 traits/skills is more than enough.

Heck,
Every non-scourge meta build does mostly cleanses, except for FB which does a lot of everything. If Med Kit Scrapper and its ability to cleanse hundreds if not thousands of condis every fight didn't exist, a lot of things would change.

Zerg situations aren't really relevant in a conversation about trailblazer tbh, the statcombo is only at all relevant on burnguard there.

Cleansing sigils are quite the rage though, even though they'd put you at a disadvantage against a non-condi user though. I suppose you can argue they're probably too good.

Anyway to sum all this up before it gets even more off topic. Condi gets "better" stat combos because they have bigger tradeoffs other places and need more time.

Sure, and I was just wanted to joke about siege, but hey.

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:

Well it would certainly help your cause if a majority ran conditions.

Why yes, but the breakpoint is definitely not "everyone runs conditions".

I never said it was. But

That's what the topic was in, before you replied.

Nope you suggested it was useless in low numbers.

It basically is. If you invest say, 300 healing power, you'll get an extra 37.5 health/s when it comes to regen, for example. If you put that into precision, you would get about 14% crit. You have to be a full on healer for it to accomplish much, except for some builds that do have things that scale well with healing power. But a lot of that was nerfed.

And 1500 healing power is 187.5/sec

Stacking it doesn't magically make the stat better.

37.5 hp/sec from just regen isn't useless.

Uhh.... that's still 167.5 vs 317.5 total; that's nearly twice as much healing going on. I picked regen because it is something that scales well with healing power as an example. An actual support such as firebrand, scrapper, or tempest, is going to have all kinds of sources of healing while someone more focused on damage isn't. You should also note most things that do scale well with healing power are usually group heals, so trying to invest even a few hundred stats into healing power for self-sustain besides on (i dunno, eles?) is not an efficient use of stats.

More of a stat gives more, who would've thought.

Doesn't mean that the scaling would be exponential (or some other type of function) that would somehow cause low amounts to provide comparatively less benefits than high amounts.

Lol it doesn't subtract stats, sure. And never said it was exponential.

Then why would it somehow only be good in large numbers?

The jump from 0>500 healing power is %ually bigger than the jump from 500>1000.

? It scales linearly.

Exactly.

Regeneration for example

130 + (0.125 * Healing Power) (according to wiki)

with 500 healing power that's 130 + (62.5) or 192.5 compared to 0 healing power that's roughly a 48% increase

with 1000 healing power, that's a 130 + (125) or 255, compared to 500 healing power that's roughly a 32.5% increase

Survival time is just hp/(dps - hps) increasing hps can be just as effective as increasing hp or decreasing dps.

After 80 secs of fighting (assuming no overhealing, which is slightly unrealistic but so is only measuring regen) 37.5 hp/sec beats out 3k hp.

Assuming you have a fight that even lasts that long. I would take that 3000 health or 300 tough any day of the week esp if it stops me from being 2-3 shot.

At least in a condi meta 2-3 shots wouldn't exactly be common. Which is where the situation of Plague>Trailblazer exists, in actual GW2 Trailblazer is way better because power is dominant.

It would just be more effective to dump points in toughness as long as there are some power users around. Plaguedoctor and stuff sounds good on paper, but in practice, it's really not. Add in the fact that even if power or condi were objectively superior somehow, not everyone would follow this meta anyways.

If power ever got so weak that only 20-30% used it, I would swap to plaguedoctor/shaman (or a combination of plague/tb possibly) in a heartbeat on all my condi builds.

Suit yourself.

Well it would be the correct call, more vit and more healing power would be far better than toughness in a condi meta.

Because such a situation would mean that

Condi builds would be far more common, clearly what once should prioritize fighting against.In a world where only 20-30% use power, it's wild be weak enough that one could beat most of them with minimal investment.

I mean, there's still the potential of losing 20-30% of the time. If only 20% of people ran condi, there's a good chance you would still die if you didn't pack any clears even if they were weaker.

If power had gotten weak enough for only 20-30% to run it, then it honestly wouldn't be a threat.

You def wouldn't invest any stats into anti guard tech, most power builds have little to no toughness atm.

Well, I know, they must all die really fast.

To guards? At least I can clear guards just fine with base toughness

Condi clears are slightly more common than boon removal.

Well, that might be true.

Which isn't the case. Marauder builds kill each other in seconds outside of active defenses (which most condi builds can't afford)

I can't really say I've seen that happen since the balance patch beyond some really glassy builds that are more likely zerker. (wouldn't zerker be a better option?). But I dunno, does that mean power builds have to basically all build glass to do anything?

You brought up marauder. Damage is still pretty high.

What in particular about condi builds that somehow prevents them from taking active defenses

Mostly Anet nerfing any condi build with access to active defenses (imo with good reason). Like Condi Mirage, Condi Thief, Condi Weaver.

Also generally power specs needing less of their damage to come from utility skills/traitlines/sigils compared to condi (as their damage is mostly from stats).

Also an inherent nonbo with active defenses. As those work way better with burst than with sustained damage.

These builds would be used even if there was 0 condition builds. The strongest healers also happen to have the best clears.

True of Firebrand, somewhat true of Scrapper (though honestly without stealth not really that special); Purity of Purpose is busted. And shout warrior's been around forever and has been on and off. It's more for condi remov (esp that immob spam lately)

Imo scrapper is overall overrated post nerf, at least in smallscale.

Our healer has next to 0 group clears (tempest). Don't really have an issue with condi.

Also yes burnguard is unique in a lot of ways. Permeating is so strong by itself in an AoE cap meta because it can stack such an absurd amount of condis in such a small time.

Changing it's duration changed nothing as in the situations where permeating works, if it even got to half it's duration the target is generally dead.

If any build could do similar amounts of condi dmg in any other environment, it would be broken.

Well, guardian burn has been busted throughout the game.

Nah, burnguard was a meme build until the current version of eternal armory+SoJ

It honestly isn't actually broken. It has plenty of weaknesses

Worst self-sustain in the game by far.

Almost no cover condis

Little to no CC

Very little group support

No real utility beyond damage.

it only get so high damage in zergy situations because people don't move out of stuff and just stack in everything cause of AoE caps (and culling/lag/stupidity)

Also the point was more directed at smallscale, where cleansing sigil+1-2 traits/skills is more than enough.

Heck,
Every non-scourge meta build does mostly cleanses, except for FB which does a lot of everything. If Med Kit Scrapper and its ability to cleanse hundreds if not thousands of condis every fight didn't exist, a lot of things would change.

Zerg situations aren't really relevant in a conversation about trailblazer tbh, the statcombo is only at all relevant on burnguard there.

Cleansing sigils are quite the rage though, even though they'd put you at a disadvantage against a non-condi user though. I suppose you can argue they're probably too good.

The opportunity cost is extremely low.

Not running cleansing sigil is in 99% of all cases just wrong, especially as power.

Anyway to sum all this up before it gets even more off topic. Condi gets "better" stat combos because they have bigger tradeoffs other places and need more time.

Sure, and I was just wanted to joke about siege, but hey.

Well....

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@lodjur.1284 said:

Well it would certainly help your cause if a majority ran conditions.

Why yes, but the breakpoint is definitely not "everyone runs conditions".

I never said it was. But

That's what the topic was in, before you replied.

Nope you suggested it was useless in low numbers.

It basically is. If you invest say, 300 healing power, you'll get an extra 37.5 health/s when it comes to regen, for example. If you put that into precision, you would get about 14% crit. You have to be a full on healer for it to accomplish much, except for some builds that do have things that scale well with healing power. But a lot of that was nerfed.

And 1500 healing power is 187.5/sec

Stacking it doesn't magically make the stat better.

37.5 hp/sec from just regen isn't useless.

Uhh.... that's still 167.5 vs 317.5 total; that's nearly twice as much healing going on. I picked regen because it is something that scales well with healing power as an example. An actual support such as firebrand, scrapper, or tempest, is going to have all kinds of sources of healing while someone more focused on damage isn't. You should also note most things that do scale well with healing power are usually group heals, so trying to invest even a few hundred stats into healing power for self-sustain besides on (i dunno, eles?) is not an efficient use of stats.

More of a stat gives more, who would've thought.

Doesn't mean that the scaling would be exponential (or some other type of function) that would somehow cause low amounts to provide comparatively less benefits than high amounts.

Lol it doesn't subtract stats, sure. And never said it was exponential.

Then why would it somehow only be good in large numbers?

That's just how most stats work. It's like adding 300 random power to a condi build with no precision or ferocity. It doesn't really do much. Regen is one of the better scaling with healing power. A lot of skill 6s for example, don't scale well with it.

Also generally power specs needing less of their damage to come from utility skills/traitlines/sigils compared to condi (as their damage is mostly from stats).

That's usually because they can't afford to take the offensive trait lines. Though I guess that's neither specific to either power/condi.

The jump from 0>500 healing power is %ually bigger than the jump from 500>1000.

? It scales linearly.

Exactly.

Regeneration for example

Oh that, well I mean that's just how numbers work. The same applies to vitality or toughness.

To guards? At least I can clear guards just fine with base toughness

Referring to power builds.

You brought up marauder. Damage is still pretty high.

Well, I dunno any soldier roamers.

Imo scrapper is overall overrated post nerf, at least in smallscale.

/shrugs that was about the zerg meta.

Nah, burnguard was a meme build until the current version of eternal armory+SoJ

Oh wasn't being specific about that sentence; more like in pve as well atm; though that is off topic.

it only get so high damage in zergy situations because people don't move out of stuff and just stack in everything cause of AoE caps (and culling/lag/stupidity)

Can be hard to see with the 6547654765765 other things on the ground.

Not running cleansing sigil is in 99% of all cases just wrong, especially as power.

Well, almost seems like that sigil is too good.

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:Cleansing sigils are quite the rage though, even though they'd put you at a disadvantage against a non-condi user though. I suppose you can argue they're probably too good.The thing is, they often don't, because just getting rid of Immobilize or Chill on weapon swap is well worth it.

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@ASP.8093 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Cleansing sigils are quite the rage though, even though they'd put you at a disadvantage against a non-condi user though. I suppose you can argue they're probably too good.The thing is, they often don't, because just getting rid of Immobilize or Chill on weapon swap is well worth it.

Yea true too; you don't need a condi build to use immob or chill. That's definitely so big lately.

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:

Well it would certainly help your cause if a majority ran conditions.

Why yes, but the breakpoint is definitely not "everyone runs conditions".

I never said it was. But

That's what the topic was in, before you replied.

Nope you suggested it was useless in low numbers.

It basically is. If you invest say, 300 healing power, you'll get an extra 37.5 health/s when it comes to regen, for example. If you put that into precision, you would get about 14% crit. You have to be a full on healer for it to accomplish much, except for some builds that do have things that scale well with healing power. But a lot of that was nerfed.

And 1500 healing power is 187.5/sec

Stacking it doesn't magically make the stat better.

37.5 hp/sec from just regen isn't useless.

Uhh.... that's still 167.5 vs 317.5 total; that's nearly twice as much healing going on. I picked regen because it is something that scales well with healing power as an example. An actual support such as firebrand, scrapper, or tempest, is going to have all kinds of sources of healing while someone more focused on damage isn't. You should also note most things that do scale well with healing power are usually group heals, so trying to invest even a few hundred stats into healing power for self-sustain besides on (i dunno, eles?) is not an efficient use of stats.

More of a stat gives more, who would've thought.

Doesn't mean that the scaling would be exponential (or some other type of function) that would somehow cause low amounts to provide comparatively less benefits than high amounts.

Lol it doesn't subtract stats, sure. And never said it was exponential.

Then why would it somehow only be good in large numbers?

That's just how most stats work. It's like adding 300 random power to a condi build with no precision or ferocity. It doesn't really do much. Regen is one of the better scaling with healing power. A lot of skill 6s for example, don't scale well with it.

That's because power/preci/ferocity need each other to be good, very simplified its PowerPrecisionFerocity. Healing power doesn't need any other stat.

Adding a few hundred random vitality to a power build is called marauder and is pretty good, adding some toughness/vit/boon duration is called durability runes and is pretty strong. Demolisher would also be great if it existed in WvW. Which is a much closer comparison.

Also generally power specs needing less of their damage to come from utility skills/traitlines/sigils compared to condi (as their damage is mostly from stats).

That's usually because they can't afford to take the offensive trait lines. Though I guess that's neither specific to either power/condi.

It's def more common for power builds to be taking defensive traitline. Tho varies a bit from class to class obviously.

A lot of condi builds need certain traitlines to do anything resembling damage (ie like burnguard with zeal/virtues), which isn't usually the case for power.

The jump from 0>500 healing power is %ually bigger than the jump from 500>1000.

? It scales linearly.

Exactly.

Regeneration for example

Oh that, well I mean that's just how numbers work. The same applies to vitality or toughness.

See above point about marauder.

To guards? At least I can clear guards just fine with base toughness

Referring to power builds.

Well power damage is still very high, yes.

You brought up marauder. Damage is still pretty high.

Well, I dunno any soldier roamers.

Imo scrapper is overall overrated post nerf, at least in smallscale.

/shrugs that was about the zerg meta.

Fair enough.

Nah, burnguard was a meme build until the current version of eternal armory+SoJ

Oh wasn't being specific about that sentence; more like in pve as well atm; though that is off topic.

Fair enough.

it only get so high damage in zergy situations because people don't move out of stuff and just stack in everything cause of AoE caps (and culling/lag/stupidity)

Can be hard to see with the 6547654765765 other things on the ground.

Ye, exactly if things weren't so zergy burnguard wouldn't be great. I would hate to see it get the scourge treatment.

Not running cleansing sigil is in 99% of all cases just wrong, especially as power.

Well, almost seems like that sigil is too good.

Maybe.

I personally like that it helps even out access to clears a bit. So I am personally okay with it being broken.

But ye could be too strong as it's "always" BiS even if all condi builds created existing.

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@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:Cleansing sigils are quite the rage though, even though they'd put you at a disadvantage against a non-condi user though. I suppose you can argue they're probably too good.The thing is, they often don't, because just getting rid of Immobilize or Chill on weapon swap is well worth it.

Yea true too; you don't need a condi build to use immob or chill. That's definitely so big lately.

Sadly that not enofe you realty need boon strip and poison to deal with the massive boon spam and healing spam. Sadly that all on condi builds / classes.

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That's because power/preci/ferocity need each other to be good, very simplified its PowerPrecisionFerocity

Though that is probably why we are in the situation we are in now. Power is multiplicative and it's just hard to race defensive stats against us. But I guess this is a good thing since unlike OP I don't have that extreme difficulty of killing people.

Adding a few hundred random vitality to a power build is called marauder and is pretty good, adding some toughness/vit/boon duration is called durability runes and is pretty strong. Demolisher would also be great if it existed in WvW. Which is a much closer comparison.

Depends on your class. Adding 3k health to a class with only 11k base health is just huge and possibly mandatory. OTOH, my warrior doesn't really feel the need for that much vit since they start so much higher. Still good though. Add into consideration that durability runes also would give you 10% more health, and that's just an amazing investment overall. Weirdly enough Balth runes are also +10% health.

It's def more common for power builds to be taking defensive traitline. Tho varies a bit from class to class obviously.

Speaking of that Warrior is in a funky place now with Defense being much weaker than it was. Of course, a lot of warrs were moving away from it anyways, but I did notice they're not as invul as they were before.... not complaining.

A lot of condi builds need certain traitlines to do anything resembling damage (ie like burnguard with zeal/virtues), which isn't usually the case for power.

Virtues does have some good utility with the condi clear and faster virtues recharge. I suppose that doesn't mean a thing for core burn since their defenses suck though other burn guardian variants tend to benefit. They tend to ditch radiance since it's a damage only tree but muh deeps.

Unfortunately this sounds too much like nerfing burn guard, so I'll just stop. ;)

Ye, exactly if things weren't so zergy burnguard wouldn't be great. I would hate to see it get the scourge treatment.

It's just visual clutter that needs to be nerfed. If I turn off Effect Lod in most places of this game I get blinded to death. (Me, not my character)

Maybe.

I personally like that it helps even out access to clears a bit. So I am personally okay with it being broken.

But ye could be too strong as it's "always" BiS even if all condi builds created existing.

It feels really close. It does create some builds that seemingly just negate condi builds period. But then again I suppose game is not balanced around 1v1 or so.

But yea, shrugs. The only thing that really bothers me is high mobilty AND tankiness but these days if people don't want to fight you, they just won't. Which is the issue with OP's post here. It's not enough that they can't one shot me; I have to die eventually too before they're happy.

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@"Shiyo.3578" said:Hi. Great job on the huge mega balance patch, this game is in the best state it's been in since pre-dhumfire.

You guys have gone to great lengths to make sure tanky, sustainy, "invincible" builds do not exist in PvP by consistently removing any amulet that allows such a build to exist. However, in WvW, we have normal PvE gear stats, and some stat combos that make it very easy to become nigh-invincible in PvP. This makes unfun and frustrating, as someone being incredibly tanky is as unfun as someone one shotting you.

Lower skilled players are always going to gravitate towards such builds, as you not punished for mistakes that hard and these builds are very forgiving which is great for new/lower skilled players which also make up the majority of the player base. So what happens is you run around and most of your fights are against people you can't even kill, and they cannot kill you, which ends up being an unfun experience of stalemates.

Could something please be done to adjust the stats on WvW's PvE gear to ensure such builds are not in the game like you do for PvP? I feel this would make WvW a lot more enjoyable and a better experience. Thanks for reading!

No.

WvW is end game. If a player chooses to go full zerk or full tank that is up to them. If anything I would say we are already over restricted in builds versus needing more restrictions. Damage was reduced due to the balancing patch but that didn't make tankier builds stronger, it just made them even more like wet noodles. All this did was improve sustain builds which I am not saying need any changes, but people seem to mix tanky and sustain and where as a sustain build can be tanky it doesn't mean that a tanky one has sustain. People should have the freedom to build as defensive as they want since all they do is reduce the damage they can then do themselves. On top of all this we have mixes of play levels as well. Tanky in a zerg will just be burned down over time and might be needed by the driver though they wouldn't be doing damage themselves. Tanky in havoc might again be that driver or a decoy or a rezzer. Tanky in a roamer is just planning on getting run over by havocs or zergs but wants to out-wait roamers and that's up to them. The roamer tank though is the one you have the most option to just dis-engage if you see you aren't going to be able to take down. So considering all that it makes no sense for gear limits to tanky builds. There is already too much emphasis in zerk life in this game and we already over-balance to its mindset that we don't need more of it.

Besides we don't have collision in game so its not like tanks could hold a breach anyway and as far as defending rings they just get run over or CC'd down so comparing that to small man PvP isn't the same thing at all.

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@"ArchonWing.9480" said:

That's because power/preci/ferocity need each other to be good, very simplified its PowerPrecisionFerocity

Though that is probably why we are in the situation we are in now. Power is multiplicative and it's just hard to race defensive stats against us. But I guess this is a good thing since unlike OP I don't have that extreme difficulty of killing people.

Well ye, I mean if toughness could race 3 stats that would be a bit weird.

Adding a few hundred random vitality to a power build is called marauder and is pretty good, adding some toughness/vit/boon duration is called durability runes and is pretty strong. Demolisher would also be great if it existed in WvW. Which is a much closer comparison.

Depends on your class. Adding 3k health to a class with only 11k base health is just huge and possibly mandatory. OTOH, my warrior doesn't really feel the need for that much vit since they start so much higher. Still good though. Add into consideration that durability runes also would give you 10% more health, and that's just an amazing investment overall. Weirdly enough Balth runes are also +10% health.

Ye of course. Marauder on warriors is imo not ideal (demo would probs be meta if it existed). Durability runes is of course fantastic.

But that

"Weirdly enough Balth runes are also +10% health."

Something tells me you don't like burnguards haha.

On a more serious note I think balth got the 10% hp to be comparable to the other "buff one condi runes" like torment/perplex

The main point was that adding 300 healing power is similar to adding some random toughness/vit, it can be good, it isn't always optimal but doesn't require large amounts to do something. Similar how to running some amount marauder is very often optimal.

It's def more common for power builds to be taking defensive traitline. Tho varies a bit from class to class obviously.

Speaking of that Warrior is in a funky place now with Defense being much weaker than it was. Of course, a lot of warrs were moving away from it anyways, but I did notice they're not as invul as they were before.... not complaining.

Ye war feels to me at least a lot more reasonable than it used to. Tho I haven't actually played it very much recently.

A lot of condi builds need certain traitlines to do anything resembling damage (ie like burnguard with zeal/virtues), which isn't usually the case for power.

Virtues does have some good utility with the condi clear and faster virtues recharge. I suppose that doesn't mean a thing for core burn since their defenses suck though other burn guardian variants tend to benefit. They tend to ditch radiance since it's a damage only tree but muh deeps.

Ye core burn is one of the squishest builds on the game even with full defensive stats and 10% hp from balth runes (well I guess rather the worst self-sustain build in the entire game)

Unfortunately this sounds too much like nerfing burn guard, so I'll just stop. ;)

Essentially my point, virtues+zeal needed to do anything resembling damage as the build is just non-functional otherwise, allowing for 1 utility (FB) /tank (DH)/Damage (radiance).

But all versions of it are extremely lacking in burn self sustain and tankines. Despite their defensive stats.

Ye, exactly if things weren't so zergy burnguard wouldn't be great. I would hate to see it get the scourge treatment.

It's just visual clutter that needs to be nerfed. If I turn off Effect Lod in most places of this game I get blinded to death. (Me, not my character)

PoF was a disaster in that regard

FB, Scourge and Holo creates such bright visual noise.

When I turn on effect LoD it culls scourge elites and stuff though so can't play with it on.

Maybe.

I personally like that it helps even out access to clears a bit. So I am personally okay with it being broken.

But ye could be too strong as it's "always" BiS even if all condi builds created existing.

Yep. Though I think it's prolly for the best that it stays that way as it does give everyone access to a decent personal clear without increasing group clears (which imo are a bit of a problem)

It feels really close. It does create some builds that seemingly just negate condi builds period. But then again I suppose game is not balanced around 1v1 or so.

Ye but it does help Anet balance I think. While it is kinda balance by "making everyone the same" it at least only takes away one rather small portion of builds (and they're far from the worst offenders in that regard)

But yea, shrugs. The only thing that really bothers me is high mobilty AND tankiness but these days if people don't want to fight you, they just won't. Which is the issue with OP's post here. It's not enough that they can't one shot me; I have to die eventually too before they're happy.

I mean tbh to irritates me it's enough with just the mobility as enough people worry it just never quit, even after 10+ attempts at killing you. But kind of a difficult problem to solve without completely redesigning some classes.

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@lodjur.1284 said:

@"ArchonWing.9480" said:

That's because power/preci/ferocity need each other to be good, very simplified its PowerPrecisionFerocity

Though that is probably why we are in the situation we are in now. Power is multiplicative and it's just hard to race defensive stats against us. But I guess this is a good thing since unlike OP I don't have that extreme difficulty of killing people.

Well ye, I mean if toughness could race 3 stats that would be a bit weird.

Well you can argue that toughness and vit kinda work together? Not always, but there's also those annoying siphons that bypass toughness and can be kinda useful for some hybrids.

In a lot of RPGs, tough and heal usually go together just because that means each point means more and your heal counts for more. That sometimes applies to Gw2, but mostly for the "trolling" builds OP doesn't like.

Adding a few hundred random vitality to a power build is called marauder and is pretty good, adding some toughness/vit/boon duration is called durability runes and is pretty strong. Demolisher would also be great if it existed in WvW. Which is a much closer comparison.

Depends on your class. Adding 3k health to a class with only 11k base health is just huge and possibly mandatory. OTOH, my warrior doesn't really feel the need for that much vit since they start so much higher. Still good though. Add into consideration that durability runes also would give you 10% more health, and that's just an amazing investment overall. Weirdly enough Balth runes are also +10% health.

Ye of course. Marauder on warriors is imo not ideal (demo would probs be meta if it existed). Durability runes is of course fantastic.

But that

"Weirdly enough Balth runes are also +10% health."

Something tells me you don't like burnguards haha.

Guardian main and I actually play it a lot just because it's the only real damage option in bigger groups when I'm bored of minstrel. Also played around with stuff like Shaman and Plaguedoctor, since FB does need heal power. But I definitely have a lot of contempt for other guardians. It was already bad enough to see mediocre DHs camping traps but now we definitely have a lot of the "stand still" burn guardian trying to offload their burst and nothing else. Pretty much any ranged class destroys then though, but I'd rather just keep quiet on the matter.

On a more serious note I think balth got the 10% hp to be comparable to the other "buff one condi runes" like torment/perplex

Curiously enough, so did Durability. Thankfully these things are basically free.

Ye core burn is one of the squishest builds on the game even with full defensive stats and 10% hp from balth runes (well I guess rather the worst self-sustain build in the entire game)

Core burn pretty much needs to be babied by support in order to reach its full effectiveness. It's ok. You can just run wall of reflect to inflate your numbers and trick everyone into thinking you're mvp. Then again, so do necros although they have much more utility.

PoF was a disaster in that regard

FB, Scourge and Holo creates such bright visual noise.

For some reason their solution to reduce visual cluster was to make ele attacks look really boring. To this very day I still think allied Holos are enemies sometimes..

Yep. Though I think it's prolly for the best that it stays that way as it does give everyone access to a decent personal clear without increasing group clears (which imo are a bit of a problem)

I suppose. Then again, literally everyone I told how to make cleansing sigils stopped crying about condi. Cept here ofc, which is why we're even having this conversation.

Sometimes you just can't listen to the noise. When the damage nerf came, people were like ermagawd it's all condi now and everyone switched to TB/grieving. They thought zergs would be all condis. I'll just say much regret was had.

I mean tbh to irritates me it's enough with just the mobility as enough people worry it just never quit, even after 10+ attempts at killing you. But kind of a difficult problem to solve without completely redesigning some classes.

Abusing mobility is somewhat needed to distract very big groups. But, it's distinctly unfun outside of that. YMMV. The biggest meme I discovered lately is speed runes.

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