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Perma stealth in keeps?


Calle.8746

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I am somewhat shock to see some defender of this shit bring in mesmers in the mix. THERE IS ABOSLUTLY NO ONE COMPLAINING ABOUT MESMERS. MESMERS ARE FINE! MESMER PORTALS ARE FINE.

The issues is thief portal combined with the PERMANT INVISIBLITY to both players and sniff.

A mesmer hides inside -> Sniff -> they show up on minimap -> you know they're there -> they can't perma stealth so running them down is easy.

A thief hides inside -> sniff -> they dont show up on minimap cuz' they're in stealth -> Run around looking for a thief -> you see nothing because they're permanently invisible

The only way to spot a thief that does not want to be found or seen is if you happen to see their "Black Powder" skill as they stack up their stealth. And its not hard at all avoiding being spotted as a thief. The thing is keeps are Massive. There are tons of hiding space. For any player to have a chance to reveal the thief is a slim shot to none.

I do this stuff on my thief all the fucking time. It's a good way to help you server capture stuff. But even I can admit this is cheesy as fuck, broken and should not be in the game. Either add some LoS on the shadow portal or remove it from Wvw.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Not to play devils advocate, however if a wall goes down in a t3 keep, its common knowledge to do a mesmer sweep, which now involves the warclaws sniff. Should a couple people have done a Sniff, then the dot would have appeared and stealth traps would be laid.

As a thief who has done this, and someone who sweeps for mesmers/thiefs, its fairly easy.

No one has issues with mesmers in todays meta.

Yes, the best/only counter to thief is another thief, we know. So that's balanced then?

Pretty sure a sic em pewpew ranger also counters thieves, as do anyone with decent AoE (esp aoe condi)

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@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Not to play devils advocate, however if a wall goes down in a t3 keep, its common knowledge to do a mesmer sweep, which now involves the warclaws sniff. Should a couple people have done a Sniff, then the dot would have appeared and stealth traps would be laid.

As a thief who has done this, and someone who sweeps for mesmers/thiefs, its fairly easy.

No one has issues with mesmers in todays meta.

Yes, the best/only counter to thief is another thief, we know. So that's balanced then?

Pretty sure a sic em pewpew ranger also counters thieves, as do anyone with decent AoE (esp aoe condi)

Sick em' only work if you can target the thief, wich is not possible while they're in stealth. AoE condi is pretty useless thanks to "Shadow's Embrace" wich removes condi while in stealth.

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@Calle.8746 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Not to play devils advocate, however if a wall goes down in a t3 keep, its common knowledge to do a mesmer sweep, which now involves the warclaws sniff. Should a couple people have done a Sniff, then the dot would have appeared and stealth traps would be laid.

As a thief who has done this, and someone who sweeps for mesmers/thiefs, its fairly easy.

No one has issues with mesmers in todays meta.

Yes, the best/only counter to thief is another thief, we know. So that's balanced then?

Pretty sure a sic em pewpew ranger also counters thieves, as do anyone with decent AoE (esp aoe condi)

Sick em' only work if you can target the thief, wich is not possible while they're in stealth. AoE condi is pretty useless thanks to "Shadow's Embrace" wich removes condi while in stealth.

Not everyone runs that, believe me, and the rate which the condis are removed are not that fastAlso necro (core) has an aoe tether/reveal that apparently (from experience) you dont need to see them, just need to be within a vicinity.Theres counter play for everything,just need to know it and utilize it.

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@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Not to play devils advocate, however if a wall goes down in a t3 keep, its common knowledge to do a mesmer sweep, which now involves the warclaws sniff. Should a couple people have done a Sniff, then the dot would have appeared and stealth traps would be laid.

As a thief who has done this, and someone who sweeps for mesmers/thiefs, its fairly easy.

No one has issues with mesmers in todays meta.

Yes, the best/only counter to thief is another thief, we know. So that's balanced then?

Pretty sure a sic em pewpew ranger also counters thieves, as do anyone with decent AoE (esp aoe condi)

Sick em' only work if you can target the thief, wich is not possible while they're in stealth. AoE condi is pretty useless thanks to "Shadow's Embrace" wich removes condi while in stealth.

Not everyone runs that, believe me, and the rate which the condis are removed are not that fastAlso necro (core) has an aoe tether/reveal that apparently (from experience) you dont need to see them, just need to be within a vicinity.Theres counter play for everything,just need to know it and utilize it.

And how am i suppose to use the theather/reveal on any other proffession than core necro?

Besides I think the problem people are having is that they're arguing as if people are fighting theives. There is no fighting. You do not know there's a thief, he has no attack nor been seen by anyone. There could be a thief in the keep. Also there could not be a thief. Now go search through the entire Fire Keep on Red Borderland and find that permantly stealthed thief who doesn't want to be found.

I can stack up to 12-20 seconds of stealth on my thief. That is more than enough time to avoid anyone. The second I see anyone moving towards me I'll just bounch and move to the other side of the keep.

Good luck revlealing me with your 900 range reveal whatever fucking proffession you're playing. It is NOT gonna happen unless I slip up as a thief and let myself get seen.

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And stealth traps are a joke. Just shadowstep across any tight area where people usually put them and you're fine. Unless I have atleast 5-10 people activly searching for me for 10-20 min I am not worried. Even when people know I'm there they usually get bored after 5 min of trying to catch me. It is NOT HARD TO AVOID REVEAL on thief when you're not engaged in a fight.

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@kash.9213 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Let me get this right.

So your keep gets broken into, both outer and inner. Which you see because you are involved in the fight to defend. Then a thief who stayed behind spends 30 minutes stacking stealth and avoiding reveals from any number of people who are trying to catch them. Which, is because they lost the fight to take the keep and presumably are decently outnumbered.

Then, after some time, up to 30 minutes of stealth stacking and avoiding reveals later they manage to bring some allies using Shadow Portal into inner. And then that group manages to beat the keep lord without anyone knowing about it.

When did this happen or did you just dream it up?

Lol are you kitten me? Avoiding reveals are easy as hell. And since when is WvW about the entire group trying to find 1 stealthing thief? This happens on a weekly baisis. I even do it on my thief whenever I play it.

So you don’t sweep for thief and Mesmer after? Like, sure, one reveal is easy. Several over the span of 10 seconds will be much much harder to stick around and stay alive.

If you can’t be bothered then that thief and the group deserve that cap imo.

No one what so ever has said anything about mesmer. Dont even try to compare the 2. I have no problem with mesmer at all. Sure they can hide but are easily found with "Sniff" or by just running around.

A completely different story when it comes to thieves who are permanetly invisible. And unless an entire zerg is chasing after me when I play my thief I wont be found. Doesn't matter the amount of reveal they have. Avoiding it is easy. You honestly just sound like a pathetic thief main who enjoy abusing broken mechanics because you lack skill.

Stop trying to justify broken mechanics.

If that Zerg was smart, they would use stealth traps all over the place. I'll file what you said under 'Things That Didn't Happen'.

Yes, have an entire squad drop 50 stealth reveal traps (which even at the low cost of 5 per trap, drains up to 250 supply). Which also only work IF you chase a Deadeye into it in the first place. Even that is hardly balanced. There is NO other class which would demand this amount of supply waste/usage.

Meanwhile, a good Deadeye is either portaling out of the keep and back in. Skillfully evading the few warrior/engineers with their long reveal cooldowns and IF caught, using Shadow Meld to re-stealth and escape (and if he has half a brain, avoid earlier placed traps unless he has the memory of an amoeba and the perception of a piece of wood).

Sorry, but if you hare having issues as DE to not remain in a keep, you are just bad at your class.

I actually don't have issues remaining in keeps because of a few easy tricks. Cast portal on inner right next to the spawn gates, run away to get out of Marked territory, port as soon as the CD is almost up and replace portal, repeat.

If I get caught and people try to place traps and damage on my portal spot, I have an ally go in first to be my damage sponge, drop portal and run away again.

It's not hard, but what am I actually accomplishing? Being a pest, that's it. It's literally what my job there is since I don't have 20 person portals and I don't often have mesmers on hand to do that for me. If I manage to outsmart a map blob and get a few people in to quick flip something, then I say I earned it because they didn't pay attention. They can usually take it back anyway because we didn't have the numbers to defend it in the first place.

Also, Nomad gear and Rebirth runes because I like not dying but still doing 5k on Death's Judgment for some reason.

So, you basically admit that a good thief, and DE especially, has no issue to remain in an objective indefinitely, but then see no issue with it?

Stop looking at this game from a "oh we flip T0 objectives" all day long, but from an actual "we have a built out T3 objectives and all 3 sides have been sieging up the entire day to get ready for prime time". Especially on EU, WvW is not as dead as it is on NA outside of T5 (and even T5 sees some action at current player numbers).

That "portal issue", good thing public squads can bring mesmers then isn't it?

I have looked at it from that perspective too. If anyone gets to lord on a T3 objective we own, I assume there is a stealth thief inside before I don't. I know where the best hiding spots are and I always stress to sweep and use stealth traps.

Here's why I say it's fair game; it's not impossible to catch me. If they know I'm there, the only way I can reliably get away is if it's my own spawn keep and I run to the safe zone. DE is nowhere near as fast as DD and even with Shortbow, it's not hard to keep up with me. The moment I can't stealth, I'm in trouble, and if I use my portal to escape and they find me because I'm marked on their minimap, I have no choice but to bail out. I have little kill power besides DJ which reveals me and isn't exactly reliable vs awake players, and I have almost no stun breaks if I want to hold stealth and not leave giant AoEs giving me away. Shiro revs, other non DE thieves, and rangers can often keep up with me or just pew pew me from behind.

My biggest asset is not being seen, the moment they know im there, there are ways to stop me and stealth traps are often how it happens because it quite literally turns my build off.

Nobody said it's impossible to catch a thief. The question and argument raised is:
is the effort required balanced
with the current thief skill set and counter skill set on other classes or versus stealth?

Also, DE, while less mobile than a DD is still a thief, and still vastly more mobile than 8 other classes in this game.

Exactly, the moment you can't stealth. So let's address that then, that's what this topic is about. The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

Like I said earlier, people don't put in the effort and that's really the biggest problem for any server losing their stuff. If they don't have coverage, then thieves or mesmers aren't the problem for them. You also might have read that post you quoted but you glossed over it because they pretty much told you how to catch that DE and it wouldn't take much, but you're still claiming it's some massive effort when it's not. I don't know what to tell you, you have the same utility budget as they do and can either counter their focus or you can stick with whatever you have to run around with blobs or whatever.

Name 1 class which can both reveal and chase down a thief which does not want to get caught, besides another thief.

I don't have to, that post you quoted before that you mostly ignored named some. Also, it's less about the class and more about what you're willing to do with your build, what you're willing to take on your utility bar or in your inventory, and what the guild claiming the structure is willing to manage and hopefully the server has a culture of taking care of their stuff.

Which I responded to, and those classes are no counters, here is what I wrote, which you obviously skipped:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

So back to my question: name a class please which is mobile enough and has access to reveal which can chase down a thief (even thiefs don't have reveals, but they are mobile enough to stay on target which in the hands in a more skilled player is enough).

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Not to play devils advocate, however if a wall goes down in a t3 keep, its common knowledge to do a mesmer sweep, which now involves the warclaws sniff. Should a couple people have done a Sniff, then the dot would have appeared and stealth traps would be laid.

As a thief who has done this, and someone who sweeps for mesmers/thiefs, its fairly easy.

No one has issues with mesmers in todays meta.

Yes, the best/only counter to thief is another thief, we know. So that's balanced then?

Pretty sure a sic em pewpew ranger also counters thieves, as do anyone with decent AoE (esp aoe condi)

Sick em' only work if you can target the thief, wich is not possible while they're in stealth. AoE condi is pretty useless thanks to "Shadow's Embrace" wich removes condi while in stealth.

Not everyone runs that, believe me, and the rate which the condis are removed are not that fastAlso necro (core) has an aoe tether/reveal that apparently (from experience) you dont need to see them, just need to be within a vicinity.Theres counter play for everything,just need to know it and utilize it.

So we are down to 1 class (if we let sic em ranger slide, since they actually need vision first) AND cherry picking what traits and skills the thief does not run? Hint: the if the thief does not WANT to be found, guess which traits and abilities he will be using?

Pretty weak defense guys. My suggestion, pray Arenanet balance things against stealth and not other things like mobility. One of both would make the class unplayable in all content, the other would simply address issues about perma stealthing thiefs. I know what I would pick if I had to make a choice as thief (that is unless you believe Arenanet will let this go on forever, which they very well might do, WvW seeing all the attention it does).

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Let me get this right.

So your keep gets broken into, both outer and inner. Which you see because you are involved in the fight to defend. Then a thief who stayed behind spends 30 minutes stacking stealth and avoiding reveals from any number of people who are trying to catch them. Which, is because they lost the fight to take the keep and presumably are decently outnumbered.

Then, after some time, up to 30 minutes of stealth stacking and avoiding reveals later they manage to bring some allies using Shadow Portal into inner. And then that group manages to beat the keep lord without anyone knowing about it.

When did this happen or did you just dream it up?

Lol are you kitten me? Avoiding reveals are easy as hell. And since when is WvW about the entire group trying to find 1 stealthing thief? This happens on a weekly baisis. I even do it on my thief whenever I play it.

So you don’t sweep for thief and Mesmer after? Like, sure, one reveal is easy. Several over the span of 10 seconds will be much much harder to stick around and stay alive.

If you can’t be bothered then that thief and the group deserve that cap imo.

No one what so ever has said anything about mesmer. Dont even try to compare the 2. I have no problem with mesmer at all. Sure they can hide but are easily found with "Sniff" or by just running around.

A completely different story when it comes to thieves who are permanetly invisible. And unless an entire zerg is chasing after me when I play my thief I wont be found. Doesn't matter the amount of reveal they have. Avoiding it is easy. You honestly just sound like a pathetic thief main who enjoy abusing broken mechanics because you lack skill.

Stop trying to justify broken mechanics.

If that Zerg was smart, they would use stealth traps all over the place. I'll file what you said under 'Things That Didn't Happen'.

Yes, have an entire squad drop 50 stealth reveal traps (which even at the low cost of 5 per trap, drains up to 250 supply). Which also only work IF you chase a Deadeye into it in the first place. Even that is hardly balanced. There is NO other class which would demand this amount of supply waste/usage.

Meanwhile, a good Deadeye is either portaling out of the keep and back in. Skillfully evading the few warrior/engineers with their long reveal cooldowns and IF caught, using Shadow Meld to re-stealth and escape (and if he has half a brain, avoid earlier placed traps unless he has the memory of an amoeba and the perception of a piece of wood).

Sorry, but if you hare having issues as DE to not remain in a keep, you are just bad at your class.

I actually don't have issues remaining in keeps because of a few easy tricks. Cast portal on inner right next to the spawn gates, run away to get out of Marked territory, port as soon as the CD is almost up and replace portal, repeat.

If I get caught and people try to place traps and damage on my portal spot, I have an ally go in first to be my damage sponge, drop portal and run away again.

It's not hard, but what am I actually accomplishing? Being a pest, that's it. It's literally what my job there is since I don't have 20 person portals and I don't often have mesmers on hand to do that for me. If I manage to outsmart a map blob and get a few people in to quick flip something, then I say I earned it because they didn't pay attention. They can usually take it back anyway because we didn't have the numbers to defend it in the first place.

Also, Nomad gear and Rebirth runes because I like not dying but still doing 5k on Death's Judgment for some reason.

So, you basically admit that a good thief, and DE especially, has no issue to remain in an objective indefinitely, but then see no issue with it?

Stop looking at this game from a "oh we flip T0 objectives" all day long, but from an actual "we have a built out T3 objectives and all 3 sides have been sieging up the entire day to get ready for prime time". Especially on EU, WvW is not as dead as it is on NA outside of T5 (and even T5 sees some action at current player numbers).

That "portal issue", good thing public squads can bring mesmers then isn't it?

I have looked at it from that perspective too. If anyone gets to lord on a T3 objective we own, I assume there is a stealth thief inside before I don't. I know where the best hiding spots are and I always stress to sweep and use stealth traps.

Here's why I say it's fair game; it's not impossible to catch me. If they know I'm there, the only way I can reliably get away is if it's my own spawn keep and I run to the safe zone. DE is nowhere near as fast as DD and even with Shortbow, it's not hard to keep up with me. The moment I can't stealth, I'm in trouble, and if I use my portal to escape and they find me because I'm marked on their minimap, I have no choice but to bail out. I have little kill power besides DJ which reveals me and isn't exactly reliable vs awake players, and I have almost no stun breaks if I want to hold stealth and not leave giant AoEs giving me away. Shiro revs, other non DE thieves, and rangers can often keep up with me or just pew pew me from behind.

My biggest asset is not being seen, the moment they know im there, there are ways to stop me and stealth traps are often how it happens because it quite literally turns my build off.

Nobody said it's impossible to catch a thief. The question and argument raised is:
is the effort required balanced
with the current thief skill set and counter skill set on other classes or versus stealth?

Also, DE, while less mobile than a DD is still a thief, and still vastly more mobile than 8 other classes in this game.

Exactly, the moment you can't stealth. So let's address that then, that's what this topic is about. The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

Like I said earlier, people don't put in the effort and that's really the biggest problem for any server losing their stuff. If they don't have coverage, then thieves or mesmers aren't the problem for them. You also might have read that post you quoted but you glossed over it because they pretty much told you how to catch that DE and it wouldn't take much, but you're still claiming it's some massive effort when it's not. I don't know what to tell you, you have the same utility budget as they do and can either counter their focus or you can stick with whatever you have to run around with blobs or whatever.

Name 1 class which can both reveal and chase down a thief which does not want to get caught, besides another thief.

I don't have to, that post you quoted before that you mostly ignored named some. Also, it's less about the class and more about what you're willing to do with your build, what you're willing to take on your utility bar or in your inventory, and what the guild claiming the structure is willing to manage and hopefully the server has a culture of taking care of their stuff.

Which I responded to, and those classes are no counters, here is what I wrote, which you obviously skipped:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

So back to my question: name a class please which is mobile enough and has access to reveal which can chase down a thief (even thiefs don't have reveals, but they are mobile enough to stay on target which in the hands in a more skilled player is enough).

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Not to play devils advocate, however if a wall goes down in a t3 keep, its common knowledge to do a mesmer sweep, which now involves the warclaws sniff. Should a couple people have done a Sniff, then the dot would have appeared and stealth traps would be laid.

As a thief who has done this, and someone who sweeps for mesmers/thiefs, its fairly easy.

No one has issues with mesmers in todays meta.

Yes, the best/only counter to thief is another thief, we know. So that's balanced then?

Pretty sure a sic em pewpew ranger also counters thieves, as do anyone with decent AoE (esp aoe condi)

Sick em' only work if you can target the thief, wich is not possible while they're in stealth. AoE condi is pretty useless thanks to "Shadow's Embrace" wich removes condi while in stealth.

Not everyone runs that, believe me, and the rate which the condis are removed are not that fastAlso necro (core) has an aoe tether/reveal that apparently (from experience) you dont need to see them, just need to be within a vicinity.Theres counter play for everything,just need to know it and utilize it.

So we are down to 1 class (if we let sic em ranger slide, since they actually need vision first) AND cherry picking what traits and skills the thief does not run? Hint: the if the thief does not WANT to be found, guess which traits and abilities he will be using?

Pretty weak defense guys. My suggestion, pray Arenanet balance things against stealth and not other things like mobility. One of both would make the class unplayable in all content, the other would simply address issues about perma stealthing thiefs. I know what I would pick if I had to make a choice as thief (that is unless you believe Arenanet will let this go on forever, which they very well might do, WvW seeing all the attention it does).

I don't need reveals for other thieves. If they're attacking, you can track them easily. If they're not attacking they're less easy to track, but you and everyone else on your server and your map have available structure marking and inventory tools aside from your build. No one is going to log in and play your character for you, get some help on that map or transfer servers or something.

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@kash.9213 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Let me get this right.

So your keep gets broken into, both outer and inner. Which you see because you are involved in the fight to defend. Then a thief who stayed behind spends 30 minutes stacking stealth and avoiding reveals from any number of people who are trying to catch them. Which, is because they lost the fight to take the keep and presumably are decently outnumbered.

Then, after some time, up to 30 minutes of stealth stacking and avoiding reveals later they manage to bring some allies using Shadow Portal into inner. And then that group manages to beat the keep lord without anyone knowing about it.

When did this happen or did you just dream it up?

Lol are you kitten me? Avoiding reveals are easy as hell. And since when is WvW about the entire group trying to find 1 stealthing thief? This happens on a weekly baisis. I even do it on my thief whenever I play it.

So you don’t sweep for thief and Mesmer after? Like, sure, one reveal is easy. Several over the span of 10 seconds will be much much harder to stick around and stay alive.

If you can’t be bothered then that thief and the group deserve that cap imo.

No one what so ever has said anything about mesmer. Dont even try to compare the 2. I have no problem with mesmer at all. Sure they can hide but are easily found with "Sniff" or by just running around.

A completely different story when it comes to thieves who are permanetly invisible. And unless an entire zerg is chasing after me when I play my thief I wont be found. Doesn't matter the amount of reveal they have. Avoiding it is easy. You honestly just sound like a pathetic thief main who enjoy abusing broken mechanics because you lack skill.

Stop trying to justify broken mechanics.

If that Zerg was smart, they would use stealth traps all over the place. I'll file what you said under 'Things That Didn't Happen'.

Yes, have an entire squad drop 50 stealth reveal traps (which even at the low cost of 5 per trap, drains up to 250 supply). Which also only work IF you chase a Deadeye into it in the first place. Even that is hardly balanced. There is NO other class which would demand this amount of supply waste/usage.

Meanwhile, a good Deadeye is either portaling out of the keep and back in. Skillfully evading the few warrior/engineers with their long reveal cooldowns and IF caught, using Shadow Meld to re-stealth and escape (and if he has half a brain, avoid earlier placed traps unless he has the memory of an amoeba and the perception of a piece of wood).

Sorry, but if you hare having issues as DE to not remain in a keep, you are just bad at your class.

I actually don't have issues remaining in keeps because of a few easy tricks. Cast portal on inner right next to the spawn gates, run away to get out of Marked territory, port as soon as the CD is almost up and replace portal, repeat.

If I get caught and people try to place traps and damage on my portal spot, I have an ally go in first to be my damage sponge, drop portal and run away again.

It's not hard, but what am I actually accomplishing? Being a pest, that's it. It's literally what my job there is since I don't have 20 person portals and I don't often have mesmers on hand to do that for me. If I manage to outsmart a map blob and get a few people in to quick flip something, then I say I earned it because they didn't pay attention. They can usually take it back anyway because we didn't have the numbers to defend it in the first place.

Also, Nomad gear and Rebirth runes because I like not dying but still doing 5k on Death's Judgment for some reason.

So, you basically admit that a good thief, and DE especially, has no issue to remain in an objective indefinitely, but then see no issue with it?

Stop looking at this game from a "oh we flip T0 objectives" all day long, but from an actual "we have a built out T3 objectives and all 3 sides have been sieging up the entire day to get ready for prime time". Especially on EU, WvW is not as dead as it is on NA outside of T5 (and even T5 sees some action at current player numbers).

That "portal issue", good thing public squads can bring mesmers then isn't it?

I have looked at it from that perspective too. If anyone gets to lord on a T3 objective we own, I assume there is a stealth thief inside before I don't. I know where the best hiding spots are and I always stress to sweep and use stealth traps.

Here's why I say it's fair game; it's not impossible to catch me. If they know I'm there, the only way I can reliably get away is if it's my own spawn keep and I run to the safe zone. DE is nowhere near as fast as DD and even with Shortbow, it's not hard to keep up with me. The moment I can't stealth, I'm in trouble, and if I use my portal to escape and they find me because I'm marked on their minimap, I have no choice but to bail out. I have little kill power besides DJ which reveals me and isn't exactly reliable vs awake players, and I have almost no stun breaks if I want to hold stealth and not leave giant AoEs giving me away. Shiro revs, other non DE thieves, and rangers can often keep up with me or just pew pew me from behind.

My biggest asset is not being seen, the moment they know im there, there are ways to stop me and stealth traps are often how it happens because it quite literally turns my build off.

Nobody said it's impossible to catch a thief. The question and argument raised is:
is the effort required balanced
with the current thief skill set and counter skill set on other classes or versus stealth?

Also, DE, while less mobile than a DD is still a thief, and still vastly more mobile than 8 other classes in this game.

Exactly, the moment you can't stealth. So let's address that then, that's what this topic is about. The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

Like I said earlier, people don't put in the effort and that's really the biggest problem for any server losing their stuff. If they don't have coverage, then thieves or mesmers aren't the problem for them. You also might have read that post you quoted but you glossed over it because they pretty much told you how to catch that DE and it wouldn't take much, but you're still claiming it's some massive effort when it's not. I don't know what to tell you, you have the same utility budget as they do and can either counter their focus or you can stick with whatever you have to run around with blobs or whatever.

Name 1 class which can both reveal and chase down a thief which does not want to get caught, besides another thief.

I don't have to, that post you quoted before that you mostly ignored named some. Also, it's less about the class and more about what you're willing to do with your build, what you're willing to take on your utility bar or in your inventory, and what the guild claiming the structure is willing to manage and hopefully the server has a culture of taking care of their stuff.

Which I responded to, and those classes are no counters, here is what I wrote, which you obviously skipped:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

So back to my question: name a class please which is mobile enough and has access to reveal which can chase down a thief (even thiefs don't have reveals, but they are mobile enough to stay on target which in the hands in a more skilled player is enough).

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Not to play devils advocate, however if a wall goes down in a t3 keep, its common knowledge to do a mesmer sweep, which now involves the warclaws sniff. Should a couple people have done a Sniff, then the dot would have appeared and stealth traps would be laid.

As a thief who has done this, and someone who sweeps for mesmers/thiefs, its fairly easy.

No one has issues with mesmers in todays meta.

Yes, the best/only counter to thief is another thief, we know. So that's balanced then?

Pretty sure a sic em pewpew ranger also counters thieves, as do anyone with decent AoE (esp aoe condi)

Sick em' only work if you can target the thief, wich is not possible while they're in stealth. AoE condi is pretty useless thanks to "Shadow's Embrace" wich removes condi while in stealth.

Not everyone runs that, believe me, and the rate which the condis are removed are not that fastAlso necro (core) has an aoe tether/reveal that apparently (from experience) you dont need to see them, just need to be within a vicinity.Theres counter play for everything,just need to know it and utilize it.

So we are down to 1 class (if we let sic em ranger slide, since they actually need vision first) AND cherry picking what traits and skills the thief does not run? Hint: the if the thief does not WANT to be found, guess which traits and abilities he will be using?

Pretty weak defense guys. My suggestion, pray Arenanet balance things against stealth and not other things like mobility. One of both would make the class unplayable in all content, the other would simply address issues about perma stealthing thiefs. I know what I would pick if I had to make a choice as thief (that is unless you believe Arenanet will let this go on forever, which they very well might do, WvW seeing all the attention it does).

I don't need reveals for other thieves. If they're attacking, you can track them easily. If they're not attacking they're less easy to track, but you and everyone else on your server and your map have available structure marking and inventory tools aside from your build. No one is going to log in and play your character for you, get some help on that map or transfer servers or something.

Way to miss the topic, but you do you.

This topic is about dealing with players on thief who intentionally do not want to get found IN a structure. Half the things you mention are not relevant (why would this be about fighting thiefs? I have not see a single perma stealth thief look for a fight when hidding), the other half is platitudes about "use stuff to counter" which this entire argument is about: there is not enough proper counter play. The last part is just insults because you are unable to actually form an argument to counter.

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Warclaw's Sniff + Painter (the one you throw, not set) = reveal. Could have a sic em ready for the reveal or another burst. Throw another as they are stealthing to blow their Melds. Im not saying there's a guaranteed way, thats why you need to be strategic about it. I too play thief and I have a template set for permastealth. Imo worst thing Anet did was give a portal to thief, even if its only for 5 ppl.

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Maybe thieves should sweep for other thieves, since they know the ins and outs of stealth and all the sekret hiding places, and fighting them isn't a problem.Instead of coming in the forums to blast non stealth or non reveal classes about how underpowered and easy it is to kill thieves.But I'm sure they have better things to do with their time too.

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The conceitedness to defend such a bad mechanic and even bring up the argument that it is a some kind of l2p issue is hypocratic beyond measure. The release of HoT brought a shitstorm over Mesmer because he could use every stealth skill twice and the outcome of it was nowhere near to what thief is able to do in matter of stealth. Even the portal of Mesmer got nerfed to oblivion so it is only been used for portal b***ch reasons and thief got what? The same portal but better in terms of CD. I feel like most of you guys don’t even see how damn good the thief portal is in WvW. The old Mesmer portal was in the right hands if not the best skill in gw2- wvw and they even topped that with shadow-portal.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Let me get this right.

So your keep gets broken into, both outer and inner. Which you see because you are involved in the fight to defend. Then a thief who stayed behind spends 30 minutes stacking stealth and avoiding reveals from any number of people who are trying to catch them. Which, is because they lost the fight to take the keep and presumably are decently outnumbered.

Then, after some time, up to 30 minutes of stealth stacking and avoiding reveals later they manage to bring some allies using Shadow Portal into inner. And then that group manages to beat the keep lord without anyone knowing about it.

When did this happen or did you just dream it up?

Lol are you kitten me? Avoiding reveals are easy as hell. And since when is WvW about the entire group trying to find 1 stealthing thief? This happens on a weekly baisis. I even do it on my thief whenever I play it.

So you don’t sweep for thief and Mesmer after? Like, sure, one reveal is easy. Several over the span of 10 seconds will be much much harder to stick around and stay alive.

If you can’t be bothered then that thief and the group deserve that cap imo.

No one what so ever has said anything about mesmer. Dont even try to compare the 2. I have no problem with mesmer at all. Sure they can hide but are easily found with "Sniff" or by just running around.

A completely different story when it comes to thieves who are permanetly invisible. And unless an entire zerg is chasing after me when I play my thief I wont be found. Doesn't matter the amount of reveal they have. Avoiding it is easy. You honestly just sound like a pathetic thief main who enjoy abusing broken mechanics because you lack skill.

Stop trying to justify broken mechanics.

If that Zerg was smart, they would use stealth traps all over the place. I'll file what you said under 'Things That Didn't Happen'.

Yes, have an entire squad drop 50 stealth reveal traps (which even at the low cost of 5 per trap, drains up to 250 supply). Which also only work IF you chase a Deadeye into it in the first place. Even that is hardly balanced. There is NO other class which would demand this amount of supply waste/usage.

Meanwhile, a good Deadeye is either portaling out of the keep and back in. Skillfully evading the few warrior/engineers with their long reveal cooldowns and IF caught, using Shadow Meld to re-stealth and escape (and if he has half a brain, avoid earlier placed traps unless he has the memory of an amoeba and the perception of a piece of wood).

Sorry, but if you hare having issues as DE to not remain in a keep, you are just bad at your class.

I actually don't have issues remaining in keeps because of a few easy tricks. Cast portal on inner right next to the spawn gates, run away to get out of Marked territory, port as soon as the CD is almost up and replace portal, repeat.

If I get caught and people try to place traps and damage on my portal spot, I have an ally go in first to be my damage sponge, drop portal and run away again.

It's not hard, but what am I actually accomplishing? Being a pest, that's it. It's literally what my job there is since I don't have 20 person portals and I don't often have mesmers on hand to do that for me. If I manage to outsmart a map blob and get a few people in to quick flip something, then I say I earned it because they didn't pay attention. They can usually take it back anyway because we didn't have the numbers to defend it in the first place.

Also, Nomad gear and Rebirth runes because I like not dying but still doing 5k on Death's Judgment for some reason.

So, you basically admit that a good thief, and DE especially, has no issue to remain in an objective indefinitely, but then see no issue with it?

Stop looking at this game from a "oh we flip T0 objectives" all day long, but from an actual "we have a built out T3 objectives and all 3 sides have been sieging up the entire day to get ready for prime time". Especially on EU, WvW is not as dead as it is on NA outside of T5 (and even T5 sees some action at current player numbers).

That "portal issue", good thing public squads can bring mesmers then isn't it?

I have looked at it from that perspective too. If anyone gets to lord on a T3 objective we own, I assume there is a stealth thief inside before I don't. I know where the best hiding spots are and I always stress to sweep and use stealth traps.

Here's why I say it's fair game; it's not impossible to catch me. If they know I'm there, the only way I can reliably get away is if it's my own spawn keep and I run to the safe zone. DE is nowhere near as fast as DD and even with Shortbow, it's not hard to keep up with me. The moment I can't stealth, I'm in trouble, and if I use my portal to escape and they find me because I'm marked on their minimap, I have no choice but to bail out. I have little kill power besides DJ which reveals me and isn't exactly reliable vs awake players, and I have almost no stun breaks if I want to hold stealth and not leave giant AoEs giving me away. Shiro revs, other non DE thieves, and rangers can often keep up with me or just pew pew me from behind.

My biggest asset is not being seen, the moment they know im there, there are ways to stop me and stealth traps are often how it happens because it quite literally turns my build off.

Nobody said it's impossible to catch a thief. The question and argument raised is:
is the effort required balanced
with the current thief skill set and counter skill set on other classes or versus stealth?

Also, DE, while less mobile than a DD is still a thief, and still vastly more mobile than 8 other classes in this game.

Exactly, the moment you can't stealth. So let's address that then, that's what this topic is about. The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

Like I said earlier, people don't put in the effort and that's really the biggest problem for any server losing their stuff. If they don't have coverage, then thieves or mesmers aren't the problem for them. You also might have read that post you quoted but you glossed over it because they pretty much told you how to catch that DE and it wouldn't take much, but you're still claiming it's some massive effort when it's not. I don't know what to tell you, you have the same utility budget as they do and can either counter their focus or you can stick with whatever you have to run around with blobs or whatever.

Name 1 class which can both reveal and chase down a thief which does not want to get caught, besides another thief.

I don't have to, that post you quoted before that you mostly ignored named some. Also, it's less about the class and more about what you're willing to do with your build, what you're willing to take on your utility bar or in your inventory, and what the guild claiming the structure is willing to manage and hopefully the server has a culture of taking care of their stuff.

Which I responded to, and those classes are no counters, here is what I wrote, which you obviously skipped:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

So back to my question: name a class please which is mobile enough and has access to reveal which can chase down a thief (even thiefs don't have reveals, but they are mobile enough to stay on target which in the hands in a more skilled player is enough).

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Not to play devils advocate, however if a wall goes down in a t3 keep, its common knowledge to do a mesmer sweep, which now involves the warclaws sniff. Should a couple people have done a Sniff, then the dot would have appeared and stealth traps would be laid.

As a thief who has done this, and someone who sweeps for mesmers/thiefs, its fairly easy.

No one has issues with mesmers in todays meta.

Yes, the best/only counter to thief is another thief, we know. So that's balanced then?

Pretty sure a sic em pewpew ranger also counters thieves, as do anyone with decent AoE (esp aoe condi)

Sick em' only work if you can target the thief, wich is not possible while they're in stealth. AoE condi is pretty useless thanks to "Shadow's Embrace" wich removes condi while in stealth.

Not everyone runs that, believe me, and the rate which the condis are removed are not that fastAlso necro (core) has an aoe tether/reveal that apparently (from experience) you dont need to see them, just need to be within a vicinity.Theres counter play for everything,just need to know it and utilize it.

So we are down to 1 class (if we let sic em ranger slide, since they actually need vision first) AND cherry picking what traits and skills the thief does not run? Hint: the if the thief does not WANT to be found, guess which traits and abilities he will be using?

Pretty weak defense guys. My suggestion, pray Arenanet balance things against stealth and not other things like mobility. One of both would make the class unplayable in all content, the other would simply address issues about perma stealthing thiefs. I know what I would pick if I had to make a choice as thief (that is unless you believe Arenanet will let this go on forever, which they very well might do, WvW seeing all the attention it does).

I don't need reveals for other thieves. If they're attacking, you can track them easily. If they're not attacking they're less easy to track, but you and everyone else on your server and your map have available structure marking and inventory tools aside from your build. No one is going to log in and play your character for you, get some help on that map or transfer servers or something.

Way to miss the topic, but you do you.

This topic is about dealing with players on thief who intentionally do not want to get found IN a structure. Half the things you mention are not relevant (why would this be about fighting thiefs? I have not see a single perma stealth thief look for a fight when hidding), the other half is platitudes about "use stuff to counter" which this entire argument is about: there is not enough proper counter play. The last part is just insults because you are unable to actually form an argument to counter.

It's spot on topic. You don't want people in your structures, claim that structure, drop some traps, bring some cc and call things out in chat. And I told you, if they want to fight you can track them, if they don't want to fight (hiding in your keep while you do nothing about it) then they'll build to keep hiding but that's entirely up to you and yours how long you allow it. At the least talk to the guild who's claimed it. There's so much counter play that some builds can't go into some parts of a map and you're still going to sit there wondering what to post on this forum but do none of that? Good luck and have fun.

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@kash.9213 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Let me get this right.

So your keep gets broken into, both outer and inner. Which you see because you are involved in the fight to defend. Then a thief who stayed behind spends 30 minutes stacking stealth and avoiding reveals from any number of people who are trying to catch them. Which, is because they lost the fight to take the keep and presumably are decently outnumbered.

Then, after some time, up to 30 minutes of stealth stacking and avoiding reveals later they manage to bring some allies using Shadow Portal into inner. And then that group manages to beat the keep lord without anyone knowing about it.

When did this happen or did you just dream it up?

Lol are you kitten me? Avoiding reveals are easy as hell. And since when is WvW about the entire group trying to find 1 stealthing thief? This happens on a weekly baisis. I even do it on my thief whenever I play it.

So you don’t sweep for thief and Mesmer after? Like, sure, one reveal is easy. Several over the span of 10 seconds will be much much harder to stick around and stay alive.

If you can’t be bothered then that thief and the group deserve that cap imo.

No one what so ever has said anything about mesmer. Dont even try to compare the 2. I have no problem with mesmer at all. Sure they can hide but are easily found with "Sniff" or by just running around.

A completely different story when it comes to thieves who are permanetly invisible. And unless an entire zerg is chasing after me when I play my thief I wont be found. Doesn't matter the amount of reveal they have. Avoiding it is easy. You honestly just sound like a pathetic thief main who enjoy abusing broken mechanics because you lack skill.

Stop trying to justify broken mechanics.

If that Zerg was smart, they would use stealth traps all over the place. I'll file what you said under 'Things That Didn't Happen'.

Yes, have an entire squad drop 50 stealth reveal traps (which even at the low cost of 5 per trap, drains up to 250 supply). Which also only work IF you chase a Deadeye into it in the first place. Even that is hardly balanced. There is NO other class which would demand this amount of supply waste/usage.

Meanwhile, a good Deadeye is either portaling out of the keep and back in. Skillfully evading the few warrior/engineers with their long reveal cooldowns and IF caught, using Shadow Meld to re-stealth and escape (and if he has half a brain, avoid earlier placed traps unless he has the memory of an amoeba and the perception of a piece of wood).

Sorry, but if you hare having issues as DE to not remain in a keep, you are just bad at your class.

I actually don't have issues remaining in keeps because of a few easy tricks. Cast portal on inner right next to the spawn gates, run away to get out of Marked territory, port as soon as the CD is almost up and replace portal, repeat.

If I get caught and people try to place traps and damage on my portal spot, I have an ally go in first to be my damage sponge, drop portal and run away again.

It's not hard, but what am I actually accomplishing? Being a pest, that's it. It's literally what my job there is since I don't have 20 person portals and I don't often have mesmers on hand to do that for me. If I manage to outsmart a map blob and get a few people in to quick flip something, then I say I earned it because they didn't pay attention. They can usually take it back anyway because we didn't have the numbers to defend it in the first place.

Also, Nomad gear and Rebirth runes because I like not dying but still doing 5k on Death's Judgment for some reason.

So, you basically admit that a good thief, and DE especially, has no issue to remain in an objective indefinitely, but then see no issue with it?

Stop looking at this game from a "oh we flip T0 objectives" all day long, but from an actual "we have a built out T3 objectives and all 3 sides have been sieging up the entire day to get ready for prime time". Especially on EU, WvW is not as dead as it is on NA outside of T5 (and even T5 sees some action at current player numbers).

That "portal issue", good thing public squads can bring mesmers then isn't it?

I have looked at it from that perspective too. If anyone gets to lord on a T3 objective we own, I assume there is a stealth thief inside before I don't. I know where the best hiding spots are and I always stress to sweep and use stealth traps.

Here's why I say it's fair game; it's not impossible to catch me. If they know I'm there, the only way I can reliably get away is if it's my own spawn keep and I run to the safe zone. DE is nowhere near as fast as DD and even with Shortbow, it's not hard to keep up with me. The moment I can't stealth, I'm in trouble, and if I use my portal to escape and they find me because I'm marked on their minimap, I have no choice but to bail out. I have little kill power besides DJ which reveals me and isn't exactly reliable vs awake players, and I have almost no stun breaks if I want to hold stealth and not leave giant AoEs giving me away. Shiro revs, other non DE thieves, and rangers can often keep up with me or just pew pew me from behind.

My biggest asset is not being seen, the moment they know im there, there are ways to stop me and stealth traps are often how it happens because it quite literally turns my build off.

Nobody said it's impossible to catch a thief. The question and argument raised is:
is the effort required balanced
with the current thief skill set and counter skill set on other classes or versus stealth?

Also, DE, while less mobile than a DD is still a thief, and still vastly more mobile than 8 other classes in this game.

Exactly, the moment you can't stealth. So let's address that then, that's what this topic is about. The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

Like I said earlier, people don't put in the effort and that's really the biggest problem for any server losing their stuff. If they don't have coverage, then thieves or mesmers aren't the problem for them. You also might have read that post you quoted but you glossed over it because they pretty much told you how to catch that DE and it wouldn't take much, but you're still claiming it's some massive effort when it's not. I don't know what to tell you, you have the same utility budget as they do and can either counter their focus or you can stick with whatever you have to run around with blobs or whatever.

Name 1 class which can both reveal and chase down a thief which does not want to get caught, besides another thief.

I don't have to, that post you quoted before that you mostly ignored named some. Also, it's less about the class and more about what you're willing to do with your build, what you're willing to take on your utility bar or in your inventory, and what the guild claiming the structure is willing to manage and hopefully the server has a culture of taking care of their stuff.

Which I responded to, and those classes are no counters, here is what I wrote, which you obviously skipped:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

So back to my question: name a class please which is mobile enough and has access to reveal which can chase down a thief (even thiefs don't have reveals, but they are mobile enough to stay on target which in the hands in a more skilled player is enough).

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Not to play devils advocate, however if a wall goes down in a t3 keep, its common knowledge to do a mesmer sweep, which now involves the warclaws sniff. Should a couple people have done a Sniff, then the dot would have appeared and stealth traps would be laid.

As a thief who has done this, and someone who sweeps for mesmers/thiefs, its fairly easy.

No one has issues with mesmers in todays meta.

Yes, the best/only counter to thief is another thief, we know. So that's balanced then?

Pretty sure a sic em pewpew ranger also counters thieves, as do anyone with decent AoE (esp aoe condi)

Sick em' only work if you can target the thief, wich is not possible while they're in stealth. AoE condi is pretty useless thanks to "Shadow's Embrace" wich removes condi while in stealth.

Not everyone runs that, believe me, and the rate which the condis are removed are not that fastAlso necro (core) has an aoe tether/reveal that apparently (from experience) you dont need to see them, just need to be within a vicinity.Theres counter play for everything,just need to know it and utilize it.

So we are down to 1 class (if we let sic em ranger slide, since they actually need vision first) AND cherry picking what traits and skills the thief does not run? Hint: the if the thief does not WANT to be found, guess which traits and abilities he will be using?

Pretty weak defense guys. My suggestion, pray Arenanet balance things against stealth and not other things like mobility. One of both would make the class unplayable in all content, the other would simply address issues about perma stealthing thiefs. I know what I would pick if I had to make a choice as thief (that is unless you believe Arenanet will let this go on forever, which they very well might do, WvW seeing all the attention it does).

I don't need reveals for other thieves. If they're attacking, you can track them easily. If they're not attacking they're less easy to track, but you and everyone else on your server and your map have available structure marking and inventory tools aside from your build. No one is going to log in and play your character for you, get some help on that map or transfer servers or something.

Way to miss the topic, but you do you.

This topic is about dealing with players on thief who intentionally do not want to get found IN a structure. Half the things you mention are not relevant (why would this be about fighting thiefs? I have not see a single perma stealth thief look for a fight when hidding), the other half is platitudes about "use stuff to counter" which this entire argument is about: there is not enough proper counter play. The last part is just insults because you are unable to actually form an argument to counter.

It's spot on topic. You don't want people in your structures, claim that structure, drop some traps, bring some cc and call things out in chat. And I told you, if they want to fight you can track them, if they don't want to fight (hiding in your keep while you do nothing about it) then they'll build to keep hiding but that's entirely up to you and yours how long you allow it. At the least talk to the guild who's claimed it. There's so much counter play that some builds can't go into some parts of a map and you're still going to sit there wondering what to post on this forum but do none of that? Good luck and have fun.

Every time a keep gets opened, but the defender is able to kill the enemy, there is a chance a thief will be in this keep. So the defender spreads out to search for the one thief who is maybe there or maybe not. I’m okey if the thief outplayed the defenders but is not acceptable to let any player hunt a ghost. One minute looking is okey but everything more is bad game design. You should not be supposed to build plenty of traps to detect that one player who is MAYBE there, try to use reveal skills in every corner of hill, bay, sm, or even garri.

We want to play this game you know??

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@kash.9213 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Let me get this right.

So your keep gets broken into, both outer and inner. Which you see because you are involved in the fight to defend. Then a thief who stayed behind spends 30 minutes stacking stealth and avoiding reveals from any number of people who are trying to catch them. Which, is because they lost the fight to take the keep and presumably are decently outnumbered.

Then, after some time, up to 30 minutes of stealth stacking and avoiding reveals later they manage to bring some allies using Shadow Portal into inner. And then that group manages to beat the keep lord without anyone knowing about it.

When did this happen or did you just dream it up?

Lol are you kitten me? Avoiding reveals are easy as hell. And since when is WvW about the entire group trying to find 1 stealthing thief? This happens on a weekly baisis. I even do it on my thief whenever I play it.

So you don’t sweep for thief and Mesmer after? Like, sure, one reveal is easy. Several over the span of 10 seconds will be much much harder to stick around and stay alive.

If you can’t be bothered then that thief and the group deserve that cap imo.

No one what so ever has said anything about mesmer. Dont even try to compare the 2. I have no problem with mesmer at all. Sure they can hide but are easily found with "Sniff" or by just running around.

A completely different story when it comes to thieves who are permanetly invisible. And unless an entire zerg is chasing after me when I play my thief I wont be found. Doesn't matter the amount of reveal they have. Avoiding it is easy. You honestly just sound like a pathetic thief main who enjoy abusing broken mechanics because you lack skill.

Stop trying to justify broken mechanics.

If that Zerg was smart, they would use stealth traps all over the place. I'll file what you said under 'Things That Didn't Happen'.

Yes, have an entire squad drop 50 stealth reveal traps (which even at the low cost of 5 per trap, drains up to 250 supply). Which also only work IF you chase a Deadeye into it in the first place. Even that is hardly balanced. There is NO other class which would demand this amount of supply waste/usage.

Meanwhile, a good Deadeye is either portaling out of the keep and back in. Skillfully evading the few warrior/engineers with their long reveal cooldowns and IF caught, using Shadow Meld to re-stealth and escape (and if he has half a brain, avoid earlier placed traps unless he has the memory of an amoeba and the perception of a piece of wood).

Sorry, but if you hare having issues as DE to not remain in a keep, you are just bad at your class.

I actually don't have issues remaining in keeps because of a few easy tricks. Cast portal on inner right next to the spawn gates, run away to get out of Marked territory, port as soon as the CD is almost up and replace portal, repeat.

If I get caught and people try to place traps and damage on my portal spot, I have an ally go in first to be my damage sponge, drop portal and run away again.

It's not hard, but what am I actually accomplishing? Being a pest, that's it. It's literally what my job there is since I don't have 20 person portals and I don't often have mesmers on hand to do that for me. If I manage to outsmart a map blob and get a few people in to quick flip something, then I say I earned it because they didn't pay attention. They can usually take it back anyway because we didn't have the numbers to defend it in the first place.

Also, Nomad gear and Rebirth runes because I like not dying but still doing 5k on Death's Judgment for some reason.

So, you basically admit that a good thief, and DE especially, has no issue to remain in an objective indefinitely, but then see no issue with it?

Stop looking at this game from a "oh we flip T0 objectives" all day long, but from an actual "we have a built out T3 objectives and all 3 sides have been sieging up the entire day to get ready for prime time". Especially on EU, WvW is not as dead as it is on NA outside of T5 (and even T5 sees some action at current player numbers).

That "portal issue", good thing public squads can bring mesmers then isn't it?

I have looked at it from that perspective too. If anyone gets to lord on a T3 objective we own, I assume there is a stealth thief inside before I don't. I know where the best hiding spots are and I always stress to sweep and use stealth traps.

Here's why I say it's fair game; it's not impossible to catch me. If they know I'm there, the only way I can reliably get away is if it's my own spawn keep and I run to the safe zone. DE is nowhere near as fast as DD and even with Shortbow, it's not hard to keep up with me. The moment I can't stealth, I'm in trouble, and if I use my portal to escape and they find me because I'm marked on their minimap, I have no choice but to bail out. I have little kill power besides DJ which reveals me and isn't exactly reliable vs awake players, and I have almost no stun breaks if I want to hold stealth and not leave giant AoEs giving me away. Shiro revs, other non DE thieves, and rangers can often keep up with me or just pew pew me from behind.

My biggest asset is not being seen, the moment they know im there, there are ways to stop me and stealth traps are often how it happens because it quite literally turns my build off.

Nobody said it's impossible to catch a thief. The question and argument raised is:
is the effort required balanced
with the current thief skill set and counter skill set on other classes or versus stealth?

Also, DE, while less mobile than a DD is still a thief, and still vastly more mobile than 8 other classes in this game.

Exactly, the moment you can't stealth. So let's address that then, that's what this topic is about. The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

Like I said earlier, people don't put in the effort and that's really the biggest problem for any server losing their stuff. If they don't have coverage, then thieves or mesmers aren't the problem for them. You also might have read that post you quoted but you glossed over it because they pretty much told you how to catch that DE and it wouldn't take much, but you're still claiming it's some massive effort when it's not. I don't know what to tell you, you have the same utility budget as they do and can either counter their focus or you can stick with whatever you have to run around with blobs or whatever.

Name 1 class which can both reveal and chase down a thief which does not want to get caught, besides another thief.

I don't have to, that post you quoted before that you mostly ignored named some. Also, it's less about the class and more about what you're willing to do with your build, what you're willing to take on your utility bar or in your inventory, and what the guild claiming the structure is willing to manage and hopefully the server has a culture of taking care of their stuff.

Which I responded to, and those classes are no counters, here is what I wrote, which you obviously skipped:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

So back to my question: name a class please which is mobile enough and has access to reveal which can chase down a thief (even thiefs don't have reveals, but they are mobile enough to stay on target which in the hands in a more skilled player is enough).

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Not to play devils advocate, however if a wall goes down in a t3 keep, its common knowledge to do a mesmer sweep, which now involves the warclaws sniff. Should a couple people have done a Sniff, then the dot would have appeared and stealth traps would be laid.

As a thief who has done this, and someone who sweeps for mesmers/thiefs, its fairly easy.

No one has issues with mesmers in todays meta.

Yes, the best/only counter to thief is another thief, we know. So that's balanced then?

Pretty sure a sic em pewpew ranger also counters thieves, as do anyone with decent AoE (esp aoe condi)

Sick em' only work if you can target the thief, wich is not possible while they're in stealth. AoE condi is pretty useless thanks to "Shadow's Embrace" wich removes condi while in stealth.

Not everyone runs that, believe me, and the rate which the condis are removed are not that fastAlso necro (core) has an aoe tether/reveal that apparently (from experience) you dont need to see them, just need to be within a vicinity.Theres counter play for everything,just need to know it and utilize it.

So we are down to 1 class (if we let sic em ranger slide, since they actually need vision first) AND cherry picking what traits and skills the thief does not run? Hint: the if the thief does not WANT to be found, guess which traits and abilities he will be using?

Pretty weak defense guys. My suggestion, pray Arenanet balance things against stealth and not other things like mobility. One of both would make the class unplayable in all content, the other would simply address issues about perma stealthing thiefs. I know what I would pick if I had to make a choice as thief (that is unless you believe Arenanet will let this go on forever, which they very well might do, WvW seeing all the attention it does).

I don't need reveals for other thieves. If they're attacking, you can track them easily. If they're not attacking they're less easy to track, but you and everyone else on your server and your map have available structure marking and inventory tools aside from your build. No one is going to log in and play your character for you, get some help on that map or transfer servers or something.

Way to miss the topic, but you do you.

This topic is about dealing with players on thief who intentionally do not want to get found IN a structure. Half the things you mention are not relevant (why would this be about fighting thiefs? I have not see a single perma stealth thief look for a fight when hidding), the other half is platitudes about "use stuff to counter" which this entire argument is about: there is not enough proper counter play. The last part is just insults because you are unable to actually form an argument to counter.

It's spot on topic. You don't want people in your structures, claim that structure, drop some traps, bring some cc and call things out in chat. And I told you, if they want to fight you can track them, if they don't want to fight (hiding in your keep while you do nothing about it) then they'll build to keep hiding but that's entirely up to you and yours how long you allow it. At the least talk to the guild who's claimed it. There's so much counter play that some builds can't go into some parts of a map and you're still going to sit there wondering what to post on this forum but do none of that? Good luck and have fun.

Yup. All of that is being done, and yes, it will flush out a thief. Back to what I said earlier: is this in any way balanced? Is this effort in any way justified? As in, is this what counter play is supposed to look like, against 1 single class?

Meanwhile, the obvious anti stealth approach from the developers: skills with reveal to them, completely misses the desired effect of being useful here, or available to enough classes or even often enough in comparison to how much stealth is available to a thief. Which also makes sense, since increasing these would actually pose a balance issue in other areas to thiefs.

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Thief is not the counter to a permastealth thief. For one, thief has no reveal skill. Second, thief lacks the large AoE that will generally help with bursting down a revealed thief.

The counter to thief stealth is AoE reveal, AoE damage, cc chains and targeted ranged burst. That’s basically present in most roamer builds. You are trying to kill a roamer build so you need to bring one to this kind of situation.

@Cyninja.2954 and @Calle.8746 have focused their complaints on a narrative that misses the point. Yes, a thief can hide in your keep, in certain conditions, and avoid getting revealed if they build themselves for it. Some keeps have a lot of corners and spots to hide in where the thief doesn’t even need to bother stealthing up. And they can bring a small group into inner from several spots. A Mesmer could tag along and bring a full Zerg.

What that narrative misses is that keeps are big objectives that are, well, important as waypoints and defensive fortifications. This is an issue of having a good scout on your team or being a good scout yourself. As a scout, all I have to do is keep at eye on the keep in question for a few minutes after a big battle. Or, some scouts make specific keeps their home base and actively play to defend it. Then if swords pop that scout can go check lord, walls, gates and the area in case it is a tap or a larger force is nearby.

That thief you claim is unkillable is relying on 1) staying hidden and not attacked by a competent roamer duo, 2) gathering allies to jump into the keep, 3) not getting seen as soon as those allies show up, 4) not being stopped by a player in a golem during the attack and getting a response from a full group of defenders. It’s not a trivial task.

You may claim this is easy or that you do it all the time. I doubt that to be the case. One of you seems to main engi. Either way, whether or not you are telling the truth, I don’t see this happening at all on an active server. Servers usually won’t defend less than a T2 keep, unless they have the numbers. If they lack numbers that 5 person group will get into inner of a T0 or T1 in a similarly short time. Any numbers on the opposing side (read effective scouting) and this strategy of sneaking in fails and wastes the thief’s time. I don’t see why a thief would waste more than 10 minutes on a gamble like this.

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@saerni.2584 said:Thief is not the counter to a permastealth thief. For one, thief has no reveal skill. Second, thief lacks the large AoE that will generally help with bursting down a revealed thief.

The counter to thief stealth is AoE reveal, AoE damage, cc chains and targeted ranged burst. That’s basically present in most roamer builds. You are trying to kill a roamer build so you need to bring one to this kind of situation.

@Cyninja.2954 and @Calle.8746 have focused their complaints on a narrative that misses the point. Yes, a thief can hide in your keep, in certain conditions, and avoid getting revealed if they build themselves for it. Some keeps have a lot of corners and spots to hide in where the thief doesn’t even need to bother stealthing up. And they can bring a small group into inner from several spots. A Mesmer could tag along and bring a full Zerg.

What that narrative misses is that keeps are big objectives that are, well, important as waypoints and defensive fortifications. This is an issue of having a good scout on your team or being a good scout yourself. As a scout, all I have to do is keep at eye on the keep in question for a few minutes after a big battle. Or, some scouts make specific keeps their home base and actively play to defend it. Then if swords pop that scout can go check lord, walls, gates and the area in case it is a tap or a larger force is nearby.

Yes, we have scouts. They can mitigate and help, they do not solve the issue (especially when not available or when fights break out on multiple maps). At best, often there are 2 scouts for home (AT BEST, most often there is only 1 for the entire map), which leaves more than enough time for a good thief to find the correct time to move in.

Also just a small numbers game: there are at LEAST 3 primary objectives on map: middle keep, hills/palace and bay/fire keep. So you are saying having 3 scouts counters a perma stealth thief? Sure, and how is that even remotely balanced?

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Let me get this right.

So your keep gets broken into, both outer and inner. Which you see because you are involved in the fight to defend. Then a thief who stayed behind spends 30 minutes stacking stealth and avoiding reveals from any number of people who are trying to catch them. Which, is because they lost the fight to take the keep and presumably are decently outnumbered.

Then, after some time, up to 30 minutes of stealth stacking and avoiding reveals later they manage to bring some allies using Shadow Portal into inner. And then that group manages to beat the keep lord without anyone knowing about it.

When did this happen or did you just dream it up?

Lol are you kitten me? Avoiding reveals are easy as hell. And since when is WvW about the entire group trying to find 1 stealthing thief? This happens on a weekly baisis. I even do it on my thief whenever I play it.

So you don’t sweep for thief and Mesmer after? Like, sure, one reveal is easy. Several over the span of 10 seconds will be much much harder to stick around and stay alive.

If you can’t be bothered then that thief and the group deserve that cap imo.

No one what so ever has said anything about mesmer. Dont even try to compare the 2. I have no problem with mesmer at all. Sure they can hide but are easily found with "Sniff" or by just running around.

A completely different story when it comes to thieves who are permanetly invisible. And unless an entire zerg is chasing after me when I play my thief I wont be found. Doesn't matter the amount of reveal they have. Avoiding it is easy. You honestly just sound like a pathetic thief main who enjoy abusing broken mechanics because you lack skill.

Stop trying to justify broken mechanics.

If that Zerg was smart, they would use stealth traps all over the place. I'll file what you said under 'Things That Didn't Happen'.

Yes, have an entire squad drop 50 stealth reveal traps (which even at the low cost of 5 per trap, drains up to 250 supply). Which also only work IF you chase a Deadeye into it in the first place. Even that is hardly balanced. There is NO other class which would demand this amount of supply waste/usage.

Meanwhile, a good Deadeye is either portaling out of the keep and back in. Skillfully evading the few warrior/engineers with their long reveal cooldowns and IF caught, using Shadow Meld to re-stealth and escape (and if he has half a brain, avoid earlier placed traps unless he has the memory of an amoeba and the perception of a piece of wood).

Sorry, but if you hare having issues as DE to not remain in a keep, you are just bad at your class.

I actually don't have issues remaining in keeps because of a few easy tricks. Cast portal on inner right next to the spawn gates, run away to get out of Marked territory, port as soon as the CD is almost up and replace portal, repeat.

If I get caught and people try to place traps and damage on my portal spot, I have an ally go in first to be my damage sponge, drop portal and run away again.

It's not hard, but what am I actually accomplishing? Being a pest, that's it. It's literally what my job there is since I don't have 20 person portals and I don't often have mesmers on hand to do that for me. If I manage to outsmart a map blob and get a few people in to quick flip something, then I say I earned it because they didn't pay attention. They can usually take it back anyway because we didn't have the numbers to defend it in the first place.

Also, Nomad gear and Rebirth runes because I like not dying but still doing 5k on Death's Judgment for some reason.

So, you basically admit that a good thief, and DE especially, has no issue to remain in an objective indefinitely, but then see no issue with it?

Stop looking at this game from a "oh we flip T0 objectives" all day long, but from an actual "we have a built out T3 objectives and all 3 sides have been sieging up the entire day to get ready for prime time". Especially on EU, WvW is not as dead as it is on NA outside of T5 (and even T5 sees some action at current player numbers).

That "portal issue", good thing public squads can bring mesmers then isn't it?

I have looked at it from that perspective too. If anyone gets to lord on a T3 objective we own, I assume there is a stealth thief inside before I don't. I know where the best hiding spots are and I always stress to sweep and use stealth traps.

Here's why I say it's fair game; it's not impossible to catch me. If they know I'm there, the only way I can reliably get away is if it's my own spawn keep and I run to the safe zone. DE is nowhere near as fast as DD and even with Shortbow, it's not hard to keep up with me. The moment I can't stealth, I'm in trouble, and if I use my portal to escape and they find me because I'm marked on their minimap, I have no choice but to bail out. I have little kill power besides DJ which reveals me and isn't exactly reliable vs awake players, and I have almost no stun breaks if I want to hold stealth and not leave giant AoEs giving me away. Shiro revs, other non DE thieves, and rangers can often keep up with me or just pew pew me from behind.

My biggest asset is not being seen, the moment they know im there, there are ways to stop me and stealth traps are often how it happens because it quite literally turns my build off.

Nobody said it's impossible to catch a thief. The question and argument raised is:
is the effort required balanced
with the current thief skill set and counter skill set on other classes or versus stealth?

Also, DE, while less mobile than a DD is still a thief, and still vastly more mobile than 8 other classes in this game.

Exactly, the moment you can't stealth. So let's address that then, that's what this topic is about. The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

Like I said earlier, people don't put in the effort and that's really the biggest problem for any server losing their stuff. If they don't have coverage, then thieves or mesmers aren't the problem for them. You also might have read that post you quoted but you glossed over it because they pretty much told you how to catch that DE and it wouldn't take much, but you're still claiming it's some massive effort when it's not. I don't know what to tell you, you have the same utility budget as they do and can either counter their focus or you can stick with whatever you have to run around with blobs or whatever.

Name 1 class which can both reveal and chase down a thief which does not want to get caught, besides another thief.

I don't have to, that post you quoted before that you mostly ignored named some. Also, it's less about the class and more about what you're willing to do with your build, what you're willing to take on your utility bar or in your inventory, and what the guild claiming the structure is willing to manage and hopefully the server has a culture of taking care of their stuff.

Which I responded to, and those classes are no counters, here is what I wrote, which you obviously skipped:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The irony of the classes you mentioned, which by your own statement can barely keep up: none of them have reveals, at least not when trying to be as mobile as possible, well except another thief. So, where exactly is the counter to thief besides thief?

So back to my question: name a class please which is mobile enough and has access to reveal which can chase down a thief (even thiefs don't have reveals, but they are mobile enough to stay on target which in the hands in a more skilled player is enough).

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Not to play devils advocate, however if a wall goes down in a t3 keep, its common knowledge to do a mesmer sweep, which now involves the warclaws sniff. Should a couple people have done a Sniff, then the dot would have appeared and stealth traps would be laid.

As a thief who has done this, and someone who sweeps for mesmers/thiefs, its fairly easy.

No one has issues with mesmers in todays meta.

Yes, the best/only counter to thief is another thief, we know. So that's balanced then?

Pretty sure a sic em pewpew ranger also counters thieves, as do anyone with decent AoE (esp aoe condi)

Sick em' only work if you can target the thief, wich is not possible while they're in stealth. AoE condi is pretty useless thanks to "Shadow's Embrace" wich removes condi while in stealth.

Not everyone runs that, believe me, and the rate which the condis are removed are not that fastAlso necro (core) has an aoe tether/reveal that apparently (from experience) you dont need to see them, just need to be within a vicinity.Theres counter play for everything,just need to know it and utilize it.

So we are down to 1 class (if we let sic em ranger slide, since they actually need vision first) AND cherry picking what traits and skills the thief does not run? Hint: the if the thief does not WANT to be found, guess which traits and abilities he will be using?

Pretty weak defense guys. My suggestion, pray Arenanet balance things against stealth and not other things like mobility. One of both would make the class unplayable in all content, the other would simply address issues about perma stealthing thiefs. I know what I would pick if I had to make a choice as thief (that is unless you believe Arenanet will let this go on forever, which they very well might do, WvW seeing all the attention it does).

I don't need reveals for other thieves. If they're attacking, you can track them easily. If they're not attacking they're less easy to track, but you and everyone else on your server and your map have available structure marking and inventory tools aside from your build. No one is going to log in and play your character for you, get some help on that map or transfer servers or something.

Way to miss the topic, but you do you.

This topic is about dealing with players on thief who intentionally do not want to get found IN a structure. Half the things you mention are not relevant (why would this be about fighting thiefs? I have not see a single perma stealth thief look for a fight when hidding), the other half is platitudes about "use stuff to counter" which this entire argument is about: there is not enough proper counter play. The last part is just insults because you are unable to actually form an argument to counter.

It's spot on topic. You don't want people in your structures, claim that structure, drop some traps, bring some cc and call things out in chat. And I told you, if they want to fight you can track them, if they don't want to fight (hiding in your keep while you do nothing about it) then they'll build to keep hiding but that's entirely up to you and yours how long you allow it. At the least talk to the guild who's claimed it. There's so much counter play that some builds can't go into some parts of a map and you're still going to sit there wondering what to post on this forum but do none of that? Good luck and have fun.

Yup. All of that is being done, and yes, it will flush out a thief. Back to what I said earlier: is this in any way balanced? Is this effort in any way justified? As in, is this what counter play is supposed to look like, against 1 single class?

Meanwhile, the obvious anti stealth approach from the developers: skills with reveal to them, completely misses the desired effect of being useful here, or available to enough classes or even often enough in comparison to how much stealth is available to a thief. Which also makes sense, since increasing these would actually pose a balance issue in other areas to thiefs.

If the thief gets in after a take then it's annoying but not unbalanced. The Shadow Portal needs to go or not work where there's no pathing like other thief mobility skills. Shadow Portal should be something to use to mask direction around or across lines of sight for a group instead of being seen while you place it, which would justify it not being well telegraphed and should be on a lower cd. I rarely see anyone using the other Preparations other then the Portal which is telling of how much of a better fit the old traps were even with less impact. Mesmer portal doesn't bother me much, I pan camera at full speed in general anyway and that's how I usually catch the audio for mesmer port.

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Well i used to play this but got bored after a while.Tip: A thief will not always stay in inner. I know your looking so just drop portal inner and go outside.Tip: Just don't jump in water cos then you lose it.This way you got 5 or more ppl engaged looking for you in inner when you not even there.Nice way to have enemy out of their squad looking for you when they could be doing other things.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Thief is not the counter to a permastealth thief. For one, thief has no reveal skill. Second, thief lacks the large AoE that will generally help with bursting down a revealed thief.

The counter to thief stealth is AoE reveal, AoE damage, cc chains and targeted ranged burst. That’s basically present in most roamer builds. You are trying to kill a roamer build so you need to bring one to this kind of situation.

@Cyninja.2954 and @Calle.8746 have focused their complaints on a narrative that misses the point. Yes, a thief can hide in your keep, in certain conditions, and avoid getting revealed if they build themselves for it. Some keeps have a lot of corners and spots to hide in where the thief doesn’t even need to bother stealthing up. And they can bring a small group into inner from several spots. A Mesmer could tag along and bring a full Zerg.

What that narrative misses is that keeps are big objectives that are, well, important as waypoints and defensive fortifications. This is an issue of having a good scout on your team or being a good scout yourself. As a scout, all I have to do is keep at eye on the keep in question for a few minutes after a big battle. Or, some scouts make specific keeps their home base and actively play to defend it. Then if swords pop that scout can go check lord, walls, gates and the area in case it is a tap or a larger force is nearby.

Yes, we have scouts. They can mitigate and help, they do not solve the issue (especially when not available or when fights break out on multiple maps). At best, often there are 2 scouts for home (AT BEST, most often there is only 1 for the entire map), which leaves more than enough time for a good thief to find the correct time to move in.

Also just a small numbers game: there are at LEAST 3 primary objectives on map: middle keep, hills/palace and bay/fire keep. So you are saying having 3 scouts counters a perma stealth thief? Sure, and how is that even remotely balanced?

It’s not “balanced” but it is an entirely ineffective tactic. If Hills and Bay and Garrison all get broken into sure the scouts needed jumps. But you probably only need one for Bay and one for Hills. Garri is the easiest to T3 and harder to just casually break into.

And I’ll repeat. It’s a waste of time to do this kind of tactic for an extended period of time. I don’t see keeps randomly getting stealth capped in real play. If this was so OP it would happen more often.

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@crepuscular.9047 said:I may have missed in one of the past patch notes, I think Warclaw's Sniff got nerfed since the big balance patch? doesn't feel as effective as pre-patch, feels sniff loses targets quicker compare to before

Yes, the warclaw cannot detect a thief in stealth for some reason - there is no bell even. Mesmers are easy to counter, but thief is not. A DE with the trait set will go back into stealth in less than 1 second upon being revealed and will not be marked even if he/she hits a stealth trap(ANET decided to make stealth traps useless by creating a auto counter play). And the biggest and most disgusting thing is the portal that thieves were given. It completely unbalanced the class. At least a mesmer has to try to stay undetected, but a thief just has to stealth and auto stealth. Get rid of the portal and the balance will be returned and most if not all the complaints will go away. For the portal is the the most ridiculous thing ANET did.

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@saerni.2584 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Thief is not the counter to a permastealth thief. For one, thief has no reveal skill. Second, thief lacks the large AoE that will generally help with bursting down a revealed thief.

The counter to thief stealth is AoE reveal, AoE damage, cc chains and targeted ranged burst. That’s basically present in most roamer builds. You are trying to kill a roamer build so you need to bring one to this kind of situation.

@Cyninja.2954 and @Calle.8746 have focused their complaints on a narrative that misses the point. Yes, a thief can hide in your keep, in certain conditions, and avoid getting revealed if they build themselves for it. Some keeps have a lot of corners and spots to hide in where the thief doesn’t even need to bother stealthing up. And they can bring a small group into inner from several spots. A Mesmer could tag along and bring a full Zerg.

What that narrative misses is that keeps are big objectives that are, well, important as waypoints and defensive fortifications. This is an issue of having a good scout on your team or being a good scout yourself. As a scout, all I have to do is keep at eye on the keep in question for a few minutes after a big battle. Or, some scouts make specific keeps their home base and actively play to defend it. Then if swords pop that scout can go check lord, walls, gates and the area in case it is a tap or a larger force is nearby.

Yes, we have scouts. They can mitigate and help, they do not solve the issue (especially when not available or when fights break out on multiple maps). At best, often there are 2 scouts for home (AT BEST, most often there is only 1 for the entire map), which leaves more than enough time for a good thief to find the correct time to move in.

Also just a small numbers game: there are at LEAST 3 primary objectives on map: middle keep, hills/palace and bay/fire keep. So you are saying having 3 scouts counters a perma stealth thief? Sure, and how is that even remotely balanced?

It’s not “balanced” but it is an entirely ineffective tactic. If Hills and Bay and Garrison all get broken into sure the scouts needed jumps. But you probably only need one for Bay and one for Hills. Garri is the easiest to T3 and harder to just casually break into.

And I’ll repeat. It’s a waste of time to do this kind of tactic for an extended period of time. I don’t see keeps randomly getting stealth capped in real play. If this was so OP it would happen more often.

It is a waste of time for the thief and for every other player, you get it right! That’s why it’s time to end this bullshit not defend it god damn.

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Permanent stealth simply should not exist for any profession in a competitive game mode. The max. duration of stealth should be capped to, let's say 15 seconds or so and after that there should be automatic 4 s reveal. I never understood why reveal is 3 s in pve and WvWvW and 4 s in spvp. Stealth is far more useful and overpowered in WvWvW.

The keeps have tons of hiding places. Reveal skills don't solve the problem at all. The desert borderland keeps are massive in size.

Ayna / Deniara

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