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Story feedback and my issues with it.


zealex.9410

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This episode to me shows something rather scary for the narative and lore of the game which is how seemingly, fine the narative team are with taking established lore of the races and just doing away with it to tell their own message.

We know, war's bad, executing traitors or captured enemies is bad but thats viewed badly to us as humans, from my playthrough of gw1 and some of gw2 thats not at all what I got from charr tho. Charr are all about that shit, they love it, they are all about war, death, destruction (i mean u can see it just from gw1 the extend they would go to kill their enemies both of the same race or other races and their disregard for the environment in the process).

But for some reason we are supposed to believe that charr now have forsaken all their ideologies and their lifestyle and that Smoldur is the outlier here? (even tho he seems to act in character for what the charr are).

And even if the charr are supposed to have this race development where they grown to be more forgiving and understanding and kinder it falls flat because its not earned here and hasnt been in the story whatsoever, so it ends up feeling forced.

Im fine wity Rytlock feeling the way he feels because you set it up as such but why is his ex feeling the same (remember she stab him just to not blow their cover, and these 2 have a kid together)? It would be a great thing to see the 2 ideologies clash between the 2 over their son's fate.

At the start I was very much a fan of the story because Bangar was imo acting like a believable charr, sceptical of the power others posses yet not allowed to have such power for himself and his race, and hes showing no quarter or mercy to anyone whos trying to prevent him from aquiring it. Im so invested in Bangar because hes a real villian with beluevabke motivations and goes about achieving them in character (for him and his racial stereotype).

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@zealex.9410 said:But for some reason we are supposed to believe that charr now have forsaken all their ideologies and their lifestyle and that Smoldur is the outlier here? (even tho he seems to act in character for what the charr are).Actually, that is one of the points. Smodur is supposed to be the outlier. The more patient, diplomatic and pragmatic one. It's Bangar that was always described as the warmonger among the three emperors.

So, let's review all of it again:

  1. Yes, charr on average are more prone to solving their issues with violence, and definitely do not have any things like geneva convention that would regulate how wars are supposed (and not supposed) to be fought. Wars are a bloody business, and charr understand that. So, killing off prisoners is likely not a very big issue on its own.
  2. That doesn't mean they are bloodthirsty maniacs. Yes, some of them definitely are like that. I bet most of them are either concentrated in the remains of the flame legion that didn't come for the Grothmar meet, in the separatists (that also either stayed away, or went with Bangar), or in the Blood Legion (and, again, most of them probably went with Bangar, because his approach would be more appealing to them).
  3. The war is not being fought to kill the Dominion. It's being fought to stop Bangar, and heal the split in charr society.
  4. Even during the war with Flame Legion it wasn't an all out war to the death. Yes, traitors and prisoners were often killed, but at the same time often they were kept alive. Charr were traversing the split lines in both directions (remember, that Crecia is originally Flame?) and talks were continuously in progress. That's how a large part of the Flames ended up on our side now.
  5. Apparently, it seems that the Dominion forces outnumber the United Charr ones. Possibly that is mirrored in the split in charr society (a lot of charr went with Bangar).
  6. So, the goal should be to stop Bangar, but with as minimum losses to the overall charr as possible. Remember, the less blood is spilt, the more chances of a succesful heal of the fracturing after Bangar's finally dealt with.
  7. Killing captives is not going to make future talks with Dominion easier. If anything, it will make them harder. It will make the war harder either, because the other side will know they should fight to the death, because being captured means getting killed anyway.
  8. Smodur is known on reaching a lot of his goals (including being the strongest candidate for Khan Ur) by diplomacy, talking and side deals, as well as turning enemies into allies.
  9. As such, Smodur should be among the first to see that diplomacy is very worthwhile here, while too much blodshed can be a detriment. He should be the one advocating for talks, instead of intentionally sabotaging them.
  10. He should be also very much aware, that at least Malice would also prefer diplomacy, and as such trying to visibly sabotaging them is bound to anger her (and thus lower his chances for becoming Khan Ur in the future). Remember, that him being a diplomat and advocate for peace is one of the reasons why she was supporting him (and not Bangar) in the first place.

Instead, his behaviour was the exact opposite. He acts as if he either is a bloodthirsty maniac that doesn't consider potential consequences of his actions, or as if he's intentionally trying to derail peace, and fracture the united alliance. If it's the second, he's doing a very good job of it.In both cases, he is acting very much not like the Smodur the charr around him knew so far.

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There is no diplomatic option though. Smodur knows full well what an ED on the doorstep is like and the options here are join Bangar (who appears to be influenced by Jormag) and wake Jormag and get corrupted or stop Bangar at all costs. There is no middle ground despite Crecia's hopes. That should be blatant to all the NPC's.

Has Smodur gone war crazy? Quite possibly and understandable given the he's been at war for so long with so many different factions - humans, separatists+renegades, Ghosts, Branded, briefly Modremoth. He prob sees this as winnable, but with the stakes at their most highest and given the years at war, has prob succumbed too far into the role at long last (possibly pushed further by Jormag).

Seeking negotiations with the humans made sense since the humans were depleted after their own wars with Charr and Centaurs and there was more to gain as allies than enemies. There is no such advantage here for Smodur to seek a diplomatic option and given Bangar's ruthlessness, there really isn't much alternative for Smodur.

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@"ugrakarma.9416" said:i feel it weird too and the ruthless exageratted,but i guess they did it to balance the existence of too much "diplomatic" characters on our side,(crecia, rytlock, commander itself), its a "big war", so they need someone to play the "Stalin" of WW2.Then why they've decided upon the one charr that was known for being the calm and diplomatic one?

@Randulf.7614 said:There is no diplomatic option though. Smodur knows full well what an ED on the doorstep is like and the options here are join Bangar (who appears to be influenced by Jormag) and wake Jormag and get corrupted or stop Bangar at all costs. There is no middle ground despite Crecia's hopes. That should be blatant to all the NPC's.Why do you think that talks and diplomacy must be done with Bangar only? Bangar's not even there. They should have used his absence as an opportunity to take away his army from under him. Not make that army even more loyal (and push even more charr into Jormag's arms, from which there's no return).

there really isn't much alternative for Smodur.And yet he just got flat out told by the current leaders of Ash, Blood and Flame that they won't ever recognize him as Khan Ur. Just because he was so impatient that he couldn't even wait for 5 more minutes, deciding instead to visibly sabotage all his allies' efforts, in a way that was downright insulting to them, and one that they simply couldn't ignore.That was a masterful feat of diplomacy indeed. One for which Smodur was well known....oh wait.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:i feel it weird too and the ruthless exageratted,but i guess they did it to balance the existence of too much "diplomatic" characters on our side,(crecia, rytlock, commander itself), its a "big war", so they need someone to play the "Stalin" of WW2.Then why they've decided upon the one charr that was
known
for being the calm and diplomatic one?

@Randulf.7614 said:There is no diplomatic option though. Smodur knows full well what an ED on the doorstep is like and the options here are join Bangar (who appears to be influenced by Jormag) and wake Jormag and get corrupted or stop Bangar at all costs. There is no middle ground despite Crecia's hopes. That should be blatant to all the NPC's.Why do you think that talks and diplomacy must be done with Bangar only? Bangar's
not even there
. They should have used his absence as an opportunity to take away his army from under him. Not make that army even more loyal (and push even more charr into Jormag's arms, from which there's no return).

Bangar might not have been there but the position of his representatives was obvious from the moment we walked into the pavilion.

Ryland Steelcatcher: Again, our terms are simple: announce your surrender and proclaim your support of Bangar's campaign.

I don't see much room for discussion there or much opportunity for taking Bangar's army from him. Pleading with Ryland wouldn't work or do anything more than make the United Legions look weak.

And let's not forget that Varania Stormsounder was also there just in case Bangar needed to keep Ryland in line. Which isn't necessary because he's Bangar's boy through and through.

So there's no diplomatic option.

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@Pifil.5193 said:

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:i feel it weird too and the ruthless exageratted,but i guess they did it to balance the existence of too much "diplomatic" characters on our side,(crecia, rytlock, commander itself), its a "big war", so they need someone to play the "Stalin" of WW2.Then why they've decided upon the one charr that was
known
for being the calm and diplomatic one?

@"Randulf.7614" said:There is no diplomatic option though. Smodur knows full well what an ED on the doorstep is like and the options here are join Bangar (who appears to be influenced by Jormag) and wake Jormag and get corrupted or stop Bangar at all costs. There is no middle ground despite Crecia's hopes. That should be blatant to all the NPC's.Why do you think that talks and diplomacy must be done with Bangar only? Bangar's
not even there
. They should have used his absence as an opportunity to take away his army from under him. Not make that army even more loyal (and push even more charr into Jormag's arms, from which there's no return).

Bangar might not have been there but the position of his
representatives
was obvious from the moment we walked into the pavilion.

Ryland Steelcatcher:
Again, our terms are simple: announce your surrender and proclaim your support of Bangar's campaign.

I don't see much room for discussion there or much opportunity for taking Bangar's army from him. Pleading with Ryland wouldn't work or do anything more than make the United Legions look weak.

And let's not forget that Varania Stormsounder was also there just in case Bangar needed to keep Ryland in line. Which isn't necessary because he's Bangar's boy through and through.

So there's no diplomatic option.Again, this is conflating a side with one person. Notice, how Bangar is not really talking to Smodur. But still, individual charr of the United Legions are still being persuaded to join his cause on constant basis. Bangar's side is even utilizing propaganda leaflets and megaphones. A whole PR campaign. Smodur's answer? "Let's kill everyone". He, the so called masterful diplomat, is losing on the propaganda field with Bangar, the
least
diplomatic of the imperators.

It's not like he is not willing to talk with Ryland. He is not willing to talk with anyone. Even his allies, actually. All his actions are only making the current rift between the charr stronger, and make sure that no reconciliation will be possible even if we'll manage to stop Bangar in time (and seeing how the story goes, i'm not so sure we will).

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:i feel it weird too and the ruthless exageratted,but i guess they did it to balance the existence of too much "diplomatic" characters on our side,(crecia, rytlock, commander itself), its a "big war", so they need someone to play the "Stalin" of WW2.Then why they've decided upon the one charr that was
known
for being the calm and diplomatic one?

@"Randulf.7614" said:There is no diplomatic option though. Smodur knows full well what an ED on the doorstep is like and the options here are join Bangar (who appears to be influenced by Jormag) and wake Jormag and get corrupted or stop Bangar at all costs. There is no middle ground despite Crecia's hopes. That should be blatant to all the NPC's.Why do you think that talks and diplomacy must be done with Bangar only? Bangar's
not even there
. They should have used his absence as an opportunity to take away his army from under him. Not make that army even more loyal (and push even more charr into Jormag's arms, from which there's no return).

Bangar might not have been there but the position of his
representatives
was obvious from the moment we walked into the pavilion.

Ryland Steelcatcher:
Again, our terms are simple: announce your surrender and proclaim your support of Bangar's campaign.

I don't see much room for discussion there or much opportunity for taking Bangar's army from him. Pleading with Ryland wouldn't work or do anything more than make the United Legions look weak.

And let's not forget that Varania Stormsounder was also there just in case Bangar needed to keep Ryland in line. Which isn't necessary because he's Bangar's boy through and through.

So there's no diplomatic option.Again, this is conflating a side with one person. Notice, how Bangar is not really talking to Smodur. But still, individual charr of the United Legions are still being persuaded to join his cause on constant basis. Bangar's side is even utilizing propaganda leaflets and megaphones. A whole PR campaign. Smodur's answer? "Let's kill everyone". He, the so called masterful diplomat, is losing on the propaganda field with Bangar, the
least
diplomatic of the imperators.

It's not like he is not willing to talk with Ryland. He is not willing to talk with
anyone
. Even his allies, actually. All his actions are only making the current rift between the charr stronger, and make sure that no reconciliation will be possible even if we'll manage to stop Bangar in time (and seeing how the story goes, i'm not so sure we will).

Oh I see, yes, I agree in that. I think you're right that he comes across as... stubborn and almost childish... in his obstinacy.

I think that the writing for the story has tended been too black and white, too heavy handed in general. Which is exacerbated by the fact that we get the story in such brief bursts. We don't know what, if any, other efforts the allied legions are making to combat desertion or to find the propaganda war because nothing is shown. We only see this hour or so of story and that's it.

I wonder if we'll have another "but I've learned my lesson" moment next episode, like an after school special. I find it hard to believe that charr will continue deserting now that it's known that some of their comrades are Icebrood now.

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