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A Permanent solution for the Magic overload of Tyria


vier.1327

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:Yeah that's partly why im not fully sold on the possibility of Bone Dragons being the same or linked to Zhaitans champions.If they were related and size didn't matter for a Champion than Bone Dragon Champions in theory would be smaller than the Dragons Zhaitan uses/creates..This could very well just be an oversight on Anets part or a deliberate design change to make them bigger and more imposing.. which would make sense since huge world bosses were quite a big promotion for the game if I remember correctly.

Large world bosses was definitely a big promotion. And as mentioned, that's a large reason why Drakkar was made a separate entity from Jormag - original design plans was for Jormag to be beneath Drakkar Lake, but the model was simply "too small" to be an Elder Dragon, so it was made a champion. They almost did the same for Primordus with its redesign in S3, and even said in the related Guild Chat "we never said the statue was Primordus" but that's was incorrect and I and others brought up examples of such in responding threads; now in the Complete Art of Guild Wars book, reaffirms the statue is indeed Primordus (hard to say if they went back because folks disagreed or if they just decided independently though).

Point being: size in GW1 doesn't exactly correlate to size in GW2, and GW1 designs were across the board smaller than in GW2. It's rather interesting that Glint's model is the same size between the two games, given the fact that Edge of Destiny describes her as being effectively Shatterer-sized. Probably done for the scene of Aurene nestled to Glint's crystallized corpse (the fact she still has a corpse being counter to Zephyrite lore from S1 and S2 anyways...). So sizes not matching isn't a strong reason to doubt it. Would be nice if ANet could confirm if there's any relation though...

Yeah it really would, there's so many theories floating around in the community that tend to linger for years and it's pretty great when some do end up getting confirmed to be pretty accurate, the Sylvari being Mordremoth Minions was one of them which was pretty sweet when it got confirmed.

As for Primordus redesign.. I think Anet could do something really cool with that in the future without actually rectonning the Gw1 design.Now that Aurine is an Elder Dragon and possibly fully grown to my knowledge, she's hardly anywhere near as big Kralkatorrik or the others which could confirm that Elder Dragons don't necessarily need to be gigantic entities like the Mouth of Mordremoth or Kralkatorrik.

I put forward an idea a few times before about the Primordus we saw in LW3 being a massive destroyer construct that acts like a living shell/armour that Primordus uses to tunnel through the earth and sow destruction.The real dragon, the Primordus we saw in Gw1 is inside that shell, fused into it with those strange tentacles it has coming from it's body.

I could see a 4 part fight with Primordus if this design is how the Dragon was done.First would be against the shell which we at the time think is Primordus, after "killing" it we get a similar thing to Kralkatorrik where Taimi calls us and tells us it's still alive!As we prepare to pull another go down the throat and punch it in the heart moment the shell comes back to life and forces us to retreat wondering how the hell that happened.

Second time we "kill" the shell we already have a plan to instantly go and kill the heart so instead of giving the shell time to recover we go inside it straight away.. but we don't find a heart this time we find the real Primordus instead who personally attacks us and traps us inside the shell which he brings back to life again.So now we're stuck and we have to fight Primordus while his shell is burrowing through the earth taking us gods knows where.

First part of the fight would be to damage an immobilie Primordus cuccooned into the wall, break off parts of his armour and sever hisexposed tenticles from the shell in order to kill the shell once and for all.Once that's done Primordus detaches from the wall and we finally see the real Dragon in his pure physical form and the final battle ensues.

I think something like that would be a great way for Primordus to be done.

Im curious to what actually happens to Dragon minions once a dragon goes to sleep again.Champions from what I expect also go to sleep and maybe minions do as well, after all we never saw any Dragon Minions in Gw1 until Primordus and Jormag started showing signs of waking up.Even the Cataclysm didn't wake up or distrub any of Zhaitans minions which suggests that when their master goes to sleep they all completely shut down as well and can't wake up until their master does.

Based on Primordus and Jormag post-S3, nothing seems to happen. There's a hint in EotN manual that destroyers had always been active in the Depths, but in a kind of Balrog state - one would only find them rarely and when digging too deep:

Could be.. although Jormag while put into a dormant state was still whispering and talking to people so I don't know if it actually did return to a true shut down sleep state, it could have been more like a pre awakening but stirring state like it was in Gw1.Primordus could be the same, Dormant but still stirring and acting willfully though it's minions.

The Dwarves have provided limited information about the mysteries they have uncovered beneath the earth. Initial reports describe an immense, interconnected underground complex they call the "Depths of Tyria." These natural caves and excavated areas house structures left behind by civilizations dating back to a time before the arrival of humans in Tyria. The Depths are connected by a series of magical gateways that allow swift travel through miles of earth and stone.

These gateways were created by a race known as the Asura, who use them for mining, research, and other jaunts across great distances. Most of the gates are guarded by Asuran GOLEMs, for the Depths teem with threats—both animal and geological. Those who dare to travel below realize the risk they take in doing so, and
those who return tell wild stories of monsters made of fire and stone
that move in the Depths.

It does seem like the Heralds go into a pseudo-hibernative state, given Drakkar's immobility despite being able to move through ice, but it does seem like all minions don't just shut down once they stop receiving orders - even in an Elder Dragon's death that doesn't happen as seen in Arah and Siren's Landing with risen (though I imagine the decaying rate of intelligence and increase of freedom doesn't occur when an Elder Dragon sleeps).

But it should be kept in mind that the Great Destroyer was sealed away long ago - so destroyers wouldn't be a normal situation. Heck, with the actions of the Six Gods and Forgotten, one could argue all dragon minions got hunted down - the Six supposedly terraformed much of the planet, and the Forgotten spread out to guide lesser races. With Glint preparing for 3,000 for Kralkatorrik's return, I'd find it hard to believe she and the Forgotten didn't hunt down dragon minions they could.

I expect sleeping and death would be very different states for Minions.

When the Dragons choose to go back to sleep that could be when they command all their minions to go dormant into a kind of stasis so the world can forget about them.When their masters die however it's more like their minions are being disconnected from the Borg hive mind.

I think it makes sense if it worked that way, I don't know of any lore that shows dragon minions active while their master is sleeping.It could be that they are wiped out as you said but surely some record would have survived detailing them over the centuries.If the Gods themselves took part in wiping them from the world then Humans would surely have records about such creatures since they lived among the Gods for a reasonable amount of time before they left the world.If they also terraformed much of the world surely they would have found them or disturbed them too as you said..Hiding them away and shutting them down for thousands of years does seem plausable, though so does them being exterminated too so guess that's another question for Anet to answer one day lol

Yeah Zhaitan does seem to posses the ability to mutate or twist his minions forms with death magic.The Mouth does appear to be made from more than a single being though.It seems to have a human or norn head but the body looks very similar to a Gw1 giant which is kinda interesting since Giants got redesigned in Gw2 and were much smaller in Gw1.It's a curious creature isnt it.Hmm, I wouldn't relate it to GW1 giants at all.
resembled either yetis with tusks (Elonian and Shiverpeak variants), or gw2 ogres (Crystal Desert variant).
Maybe
can be called similar to
, but that feels stretching it - plus as mentioned, giants got a huge redesign into cyclopes. Using
, the Mouth of Zhaitan doesn't show any signs of being furred, or having spikes down its spine or arms. It does have the spines along its shoulders but that's hard to say if it's clothing or bon - the blackness implies clothing to me. If Zhaitan can make norn
, I can imagine it can make humans the same. The only "multiple creature" that I see is the extra arms grasping its collar.

I was looking more at the body type gw1 giants had and noting the similarities :)They can't be giants due to the redesign they got for Gw2.. too big.I didn't think of the bloating Norns though, completely forgot about them, could definitely be a similar thing going on there with the mouth.It does state that the mouth is likely a corrupted creature though nobody knows what it would have been originally.. considering there are some pretty unique extinct species around Orr (like Gorillas) It's quite possible there are others that are just lost to time as well.. perhaps a tribe of large Orrian Ogres or Trolls existed there once and that's what the mouth was corrupted from.

The Scion point too is another good one although if Elder Dragons don't fear death then would they really care all that much about potential risks to them?.Kralkatorrik in some way wanted to die or at the very least didn't care about dying to end his pain, perhaps the Torment has more to do with them not wanting Scions than the Elder Dragons themselves.Lack of fear is not the same as not wanting to take risks. As to Kralkatorrik wanting to die - keep in mind that he's been suffering Torment for literally thousands of years, and in his unstable state killed someone he loved. But for the other Elder Dragons theoretically "not wanting Scions" - I wouldn't be so quick to push it on the Torment, since it's implied that Torment acts differently to each Elder Dragon (and it's not even certain all of them suffered from such).

I've long thought that he grew most of his stronger minions/champions as well as the Shadow of the Dragon in the same way.. essentially constructing them from Tendrils and fusing them into a new solid form.We know Blighting Trees require living or dead beings to be placed in their pods in order to duplicate them so it would make sense if Mordremoth also has the ability to manually create his own minions as seen in the trailer.The thing that is most curious about the Mouth of Mordremoth is that it's not
just
plants - it's also reptilian flesh with scales and all that. Hard to figure out if Spitfires are the same since they're always full of crowds of heavy-hitting attacks that makes observing the model challenging.

But the fact the Mouth of Mordremoth has animal characteristics does imply that it was born a reptilian creature, regardless of origins.

And the idea of Mordremoth literally taking control of its own children's bodies when his own dies is a certain level of cruelty and sinister mentality that really fits Mordremoth to me with how he instills this thought of "we are all Mordremoth" into his minions.

Could it be replicated flesh and scales?Mordremoth does seem to have the ability to clone things in blighting trees making completely identical copies of non plant beings but made entirely out of plants.You can see that with the Mordrem variants of Logan and Zojja.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Zojja_(Mordrem).jpgMechanically they are just reskins of the human and asura models with a green tint effect on them but in terms of lore it does state on the wiki that "Blighting Trees are capable of creating physically perfect clones of the individuals placed in pods, though made of plant instead"

So I wonder if the flesh and scales on the mouth are actually plant but Mordremoth has made them appear as real flesh and scales.If the Bliting Trees can replicate flesh as plant then Mordremoth may have the same ability when it personally creates minions.Perhaps it does this with the mouth because the mouth might be a recreation of it's original Dragon body.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:Yeah it really would, there's so many theories floating around in the community that tend to linger for years and it's pretty great when some do end up getting confirmed to be pretty accurate, the Sylvari being Mordremoth Minions was one of them which was pretty sweet when it got confirmed.Ugh, I guess, if you can overlook the disparaties created by ANet in their attempt to steer players away from the dragon minion speculation. It's a bit ironic that everything people used to support their speculation of sylvari being dragon minions ended up being incorrect or unprovable (like the Pale Tree breaking free of Mordremoth by her own will "like Glint did", or "sylvari can't be corrupted therefore they're dragon minions" despite dragon minions very much being corruptible as per CoE), yet the speculation was right anyways.

-snip Primordus stuff-Something along those lines could definitely work. My biggest issue - aside from Primordus' face becoming far more "generic lava dragon" in look - is that the implied sizejust makes no sense for a burrowing dragon.

But they could easily simply shrink his next appearance (if there is one) like they did with Kralkatorrik and how Kralk basically has 4 model sizes in the game. Since all we see of Primordus' new look is the snout, they could easily use the rest of GW1's silhouette with the giant "dorsal fins" and tentacle arms. It'd be neat if they make Primordus look like an aquatic creature despite moving through solid rock - basically making it like Drakkar moving through ice, but more squid-dragon-hydrid appearance instead of a crocodile-whale hybrid.

Could be.. although Jormag while put into a dormant state was still whispering and talking to people so I don't know if it actually did return to a true shut down sleep state, it could have been more like a pre awakening but stirring state like it was in Gw1.Primordus could be the same, Dormant but still stirring and acting willfully though it's minions.Well, Jormag became active again with Kralkatorrik's death - there's two major events of magic being released into the world that could have been the trigger for Jormag's whispers (Balthazar's death and Kralkatorrik's death). It got confirmed in the Narrative Team Q&A leading into IBS that magic from Balthazar did get put into the world, and that it was likely some of Kralk's did too - and the latter ended up being confirmed in Episode 2.

So while we cannot denounce it, it is possible that Jormag and Primordus were fully inactive from the end of S3 to the end of S4.

I expect sleeping and death would be very different states for Minions.

When the Dragons choose to go back to sleep that could be when they command all their minions to go dormant into a kind of stasis so the world can forget about them.When their masters die however it's more like their minions are being disconnected from the Borg hive mind.Definitely, though I'm doubtful that the Elder Dragons would comment their minions go dormant too, was what I was getting at. That similar to how death doesn't mean the minions go dormant or keel over instantly, the Elder Dragons going to sleep would have no effect on their activity too.

I think it makes sense if it worked that way, I don't know of any lore that shows dragon minions active while their master is sleeping.It could be that they are wiped out as you said but surely some record would have survived detailing them over the centuries.If the Gods themselves took part in wiping them from the world then Humans would surely have records about such creatures since they lived among the Gods for a reasonable amount of time before they left the world.If they also terraformed much of the world surely they would have found them or disturbed them too as you said..Hiding them away and shutting them down for thousands of years does seem plausable, though so does them being exterminated too so guess that's another question for Anet to answer one day lolWell, there is lore - Glint remained active defending Kralkatorrik as he slept, and this was when she read his mind and the minds of those who would kill him and sympathized with the races. If we take Glint's words in Edge of Destiny and combine them with the rest, it indicates that while she was given free will she still served Kralkatorrik for a while.

As to humans having records - aside from the EotN manual entry, I'd disagree. According to the Orrian History Scrolls and the personal story, humans were brought to the world at Orr; but other lore indicates that humans didn't settle in Orr until at least 5 centuries later in 205 BE (we don't have a date for when humans arrived on the world, but they arrived - guided by the Six and implied via boat - to Cantha in 786 BE). That's at least 581 years in which the Six Gods could have cleansed continental Tyria of dragon minions without humanity being any the wiser. Plus if humanity's oldest records get things like the "creation" of magic wrong, there'd be a good chance that even if they found dragon minions, they'd record them as typical undead. plant creatures, or elementals.

Could it be replicated flesh and scales?Mordremoth does seem to have the ability to clone things in blighting trees making completely identical copies of non plant beings but made entirely out of plants.You can see that with the Mordrem variants of Logan and Zojja.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Zojja_(Mordrem).jpgMechanically they are just reskins of the human and asura models with a green tint effect on them but in terms of lore it does state on the wiki that "Blighting Trees are capable of creating physically perfect clones of the individuals placed in pods, though made of plant instead"

So I wonder if the flesh and scales on the mouth are actually plant but Mordremoth has made them appear as real flesh and scales.If the Bliting Trees can replicate flesh as plant then Mordremoth may have the same ability when it personally creates minions.Perhaps it does this with the mouth because the mouth might be a recreation of it's original Dragon body.

Other than for the Zojja, Logan, and Nuhoch clones, you can notice that the skin texture for mordrem clones are very much that of bark and other plant material, and not skin or scale. This is most notable on the mordrem itzel, who's texture turns from smooth and round bumps to lined bark. But you can notice this on the saurians too - they have the same "dark bark" texture as things like Teragriffs, Grunts, etc.

I've often felt that the Zojja, Logan, Nuhoch clones and (most) Blighted foes in the Hearts of Minds instance were done that way simply because they were hitting the deadline - similar to why they removed the fourth lane and second MoM phase in the DS meta. So I wouldn't put their literal appearance as, well, literal lore.

I imagine that if the Mouth of Mordremoth was intended to be fully plant, it would look a lot more like the Saurians and other bestial mordrem with their dark bark textures. The Spitfires do look a bit like that, tbh.

Off-topic: I really wish they did to Mordrem Zojja/Logan what they did with Blighted Eir, Pale Tree, and Trahearne with the "half normal, half mordrem guard" looks. Or at the very least gave them sylvari-like armor (Harbinger of Mordremoth outfits would have been best choice).

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Something along those lines could definitely work. My biggest issue - aside from Primordus' face becoming far more "generic lava dragon" in look - is that the implied size just makes no sense for a burrowing dragon.Given that both Kralk, and Jormag, are stated to be able to become "storms", instead of remaining as a solid physical body, I could easily see Primodrus being able to do something similar. Like, instead of being a solid dragon body, he just turns into a liquid magma stream and can move around that way at a fraction of the space. Just looking at how Kralk's neck was in PoF, to later in All or Nothing, and War Eternal, he went from being like the Shatterer, a bunch of rock held together by magic, to being fully formed "flesh". At least some of the ED's apparently have some ability to control how physical they are.

One could even argue him getting smaller throughout the various model changes was simply him compressing his body size down, not like he HAS any actual organs inside him really. He could probably make himself any size he wanted so long as he had enough material and magic to control it.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:One could even argue him getting smaller throughout the various model changes was simply him compressing his body size down, not like he HAS any actual organs inside him really. He could probably make himself any size he wanted so long as he had enough material and magic to control it.It was 100% mechanical model limitations, as established by ANet. Especially for his full-body model during The End; they went as large as they could without the model disappearing due to draw distance limitations. To compensate, they had to the shrink the player+Aurene to make Kralkatorrik seem bigger

Similar for Dragonfall - Kralkatorrik's body is actually split up into 9 different models (tail, each leg, each wing, head, and body) and were likely facing the same issue - they'd either have to split his body up more or shrink him a bit to get him to fit.

The thing about shifting into a storm is as you say - he's changing his body from flesh to a sandstorm. While Primordus probably could do something similar, that wouldn't account for the massive model change all the same. And, more importantly to the point of collapsing the literal continent when he moves, he'd still be leaving a MASSIVE chamber when he leaves wherever he solidifies at such a huge size - unless his body is literally something like this. I mean if he had a dake-like body, just look at this image done by that_shaman, ignore the wings and maybe the length of the tail, still as large as a full zone, and would no doubt collapse a city if he were to so much as shrug let alone vacate a location to become a stream of lava.

Btw, Jormag isn't said to personally become a blizzard/storm, only capable of forming them. In one case, at least, he formed a blizzard with his mind inside of it at a great distance to his personal self, when the Dragonspawn was slain.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:While Primordus probably could do something similar, that wouldn't account for the massive model change all the same.We already know Jormag was able to use magic to reshape Drakkar's body from what it was in GW1, to what we see in GW2. Why couldn't the EDs do the same to themselves? They aren't organic(in the traditional sense), they are magical beings. If Kralk can turn his body into a literal storm, why can't he reshape it into whatever he wants? Why couldn't the others? I think you are applying to much real world logic to things that are basically just natural magical constructs.

I mean if he had a dake-like body, just look at this image done by that_shaman, ignore the wings and maybe the length of the tail, still as large as a full zone, and would no doubt collapse a city if he were to so much as shrug let alone vacate a location to become a stream of lava.This is a silly comparison image. Things in MMOs are not scaled to each other accurately.

If we take the world map of Tyriahttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/b/be/Tyria_%28world%29_map_2.pngAnd wrap it around a globehttps://i.imgur.com/qGVkbGt.pngWe end up with a situation where many of these zones would realistically be as large, or larger, then some states in the U.S. Whereas Primordus would only be a coupe miles wide using his head as a reference.

Btw, Jormag isn't said to personally become a blizzard/storm, only capable of forming them. In one case, at least, he formed a blizzard with his mind inside of it at a great distance to his personal self, when the Dragonspawn was slain.I was referencing his description in Edge of Destiny, which explicitly described him as a living blizzard.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:While Primordus probably could do something similar, that wouldn't account for the massive model change all the same.We already know Jormag was able to use magic to reshape Drakkar's body from what it was in GW1, to what we see in GW2. Why couldn't the EDs do the same to themselves? They aren't organic(in the traditional sense), they are magical beings. If Kralk can turn his body into a literal storm, why can't he reshape it into whatever he wants? Why couldn't the others? I think you are applying to much real world logic to things that are basically just natural magical constructs.Going off of the blog post, Drakkar wasn't
that
heavily altered lorewise. And even then, most of its appearance difference isn't actually Jormag (despite the kodan's belief) but decay from exposure to elements.

I am not saying the Elder Dragons can't change their appearance - I mean, we already established Kralkatorrik can become a sandstorm. But there still seems to be a limitation on that just by the fact that even when Kralkatorrik becomes a sandstorm, he still has a large figure with the same basic silhouette of his body. This implies that, at least without exhausting a ton of magic and power, the Elder Dragons are still limited to an extent. And growing to be about 50x the size previously seen is probably going to be beyond the extent of that limit.

That said, they are organic, at least partially, given the fact they breath, bleed, and even breed.

This is a silly comparison image. Things in MMOs are not scaled to each other accurately.

If we take the world map of Tyriahttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/b/be/Tyria_%28world%29_map_2.pngAnd wrap it around a globehttps://i.imgur.com/qGVkbGt.pngWe end up with a situation where many of these zones would realistically be as large, or larger, then some states in the U.S. Whereas Primordus would only be a coupe miles wide using his head as a reference.

Assuming that you scale the size of Primordus and the size of the map independently, and assuming that the size of Tyria = the size of Earth. Neither of which would be very accurate assumptions to take, imo.

In lore, it takes less than a week to cross from Ebonhawke to Ascalon City, on foot, while avoiding patrols. This seems smaller than your depiction of how big some zones would be. Certainly larger than what we see in-game, where we can cover that distance within an hour or less, but it does imply Tyria < Earth in size.

On top of that, Titan's Throat instance is at a different scaling than Draconis Mons (as is common for many instances that don't take place on the world map), almost being twice the size I believe, if not larger. This would imply that Primordus is actually larger to the open world than that_shaman's comparison would make it. So even if you were to make the open world map 10x larger, if Primordus is 3x larger, we're still seeing it shrugging causing earthquakes of at least a scale of 2 if not higher, let alone when he vacates an area as he had done.

Btw, Jormag isn't said to personally become a blizzard/storm, only capable of forming them. In one case, at least, he formed a blizzard with his mind inside of it at a great distance to his personal self, when the Dragonspawn was slain.I was referencing his description in Edge of Destiny, which explicitly described him as a living blizzard.I know. But Jormag is never directly depicted in EoD, all we get is Eir's description of Jormag's rise, which has a degree of poeticness as is common in storytelling:

"We fought Jormag - gladly we fought it, for norn are made for battle. But never had we fought a beast like this. It was a living blizzard. It and its minions froze us where we fought and buried our lands in snow and ice and tore apart Gunnar's Hold with a massive glacier. It took our lands. It drove us south."

It seems obvious to me that Eir isn't being completely literal and is depicting a story, even when taking this paragraph out of context. Not to mention that no dialogue in the game calls it a literal blizzard, despite several tellings of the exact same event.

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  • 3 weeks later...

On the topic of Jormag, I don't find them all that confusing. There's a history there that leads to one interesting possibility.

I mean, Jormag's been around for a long time. I think that much is clear. They've seen the world turn, civilisations rise and fall, and many cycles come and go; they've clearly evolved something of a desire beyond bestial hunger, one more relateable to mortalkind. Initially, they just gave themself to the cycle. They ravaged, they sequestered power, they imbued some with their magicks to have soldiers to fight against the other dragons in this battle of unending greed for aether... It was simply what was done. Sometimes, that's how a person can operate, no matter how intelligent or powerful. The study regarding the chimps and an electrified ladder comes to mind here.

Of course, one of the defining aspects of sapience is to be curious and inquisitive. At some point over the aeons Jormag found themself enthralled with the mortal races; how clever they were, how creative, compassionate, and kind. You can really get a feel for this from Asgeir's journal. Jormag is mesmerisd by mortals, like a curious parental figure they want to foster these tiny creatures to see what interesting shenanigans they'll get up to, what wonders they might make. Jormag saw them as worth preserving. This, of course, stood contrary to their need to engage in the cycles.

Jormag themself told Asgeir that they had a dragon's will to survive. If the other Elder Dragons were engaging in the gorging process, Jormag had to as well. It was what was done. If Jormag didn't, then they would make themself vulnerable, a target, and they would get eaten. If they were eaten, what hope would the mortals have anyway? Perhaps Jormag could at least preserve some of them? Could they draw a few of them in to protect them with their persuasion, to keep them from all meeting their death when the next cycle came around? Perhaps Jormag didn't need to corrupt them completely, just impede their will enough to keep them safe. Cajole them, trick them, whatever was necessary to keep them alive.

With each new cycle drawing near, Jormag felt a greater sense of dread as they no longer wanted to be a part of this process. This turned to anger over the futility of their position, and their scorn for the cycles of Elder Dragons grew. They wold amass power, somehow. They would freeze the world if necessary! If they could find a way to become the only Elder Dragon, they could become the protector of these mortals without fearing for their own life. This was the most desirable outcome, but no mortal would trust an Elder Dragon, and with good reason. They had tried reaching out to Asgeir, in a vain hope, but that hadn't gone according to plan.

Then it came to pass that Zhaitan fell. This stirred a number of emotions. Chiefly among them was fear, if one Elder Dragon could be felled, then could others, would they come for Jormag next? How could they make the mortals understand? Their plans had to be accelerated, they would need to draw in mortals more quickly now to their aid. They wold need their own defenders who would speak for the worth of Jormag. They would need to be careful but perhaps an alliance could now be forged with these dragon slayers, the promise of having a dragon of their own on their side. It was a faint glimmer of hope certainly, but it was something.

Another dragon felled, Mordremoth, the feelings of fear, anxiety, anticipation, and hope swirled around within Jormag. They would bide their time and wait to see what happened next, accruing whatever resources they needed. The mortals were clearly far more interested in Kralkatorrik so there wasn't any immediate need to worry. Oh but then the mortals do a silly thing and Jormag finds themself forced into slumber, fear takes over. Jormag partially gives in to torment.

The rise of Aurene to an Elder Dragon grants the sleeping Jormag with hope, though they're still terrified and their torment seeks to utilise that against them, playing on the dragon's own survival instinct. Jormag is torn between two possibilities, that these mortals might save them, or that they might bring about their end. This leads to desperation. They decide to try to recruit two heroes, one of them being Bangar Ruinbringer of the charr. This champion is the one their torment prefeers, since he's already given himself to hatred. The other hero is, of course, the Commander.

As Jormag draws both Bangar and the Commander to them, they await with trepidation, trying to resist their torment and hold onto the hope that a peaceful resolution can still be reached. Meanwhile, they try to work with their Fraenir and Braham's old guild to find a way to purify them and clear out their torment, Jhavi is instrumental in this process (this might potentially be due to their link with Raven), so claiming her is their primary goal. Unfortunately, the Commander can be remarkably oblivious to what's going on at any given time, and they're prone to picking fights first and only thinking to ask questions later when everyone's already dead (Rytlock should really stop letting the Commander do that).

This leaves Jormag without a clear path to pursue to purify their torment. They know that Aurene could likely do it, so trying to convince Dragon's Watch to aid them so that Jormag can in turn help them with their future struggles is one of the most valid options. Jormag's torment, of course, doesn't particularly like this option and continues to champion Bangar's ascent as Jormag's champion. There are those who're loyal to Jormag, and those who're loyal to Jormag's torment (perhaps somewhat unwittingly), and both groups are vying for control without either really knowing what's going on. Jormag's kindness tends to inspire a great deal of loyalty, so it's likely that even those mislead believe what they're doing is in Jormag's best interests.

As time goes on, Jormag's whispers become more and more obfuscated and hidden, and the whispers of their torment only grow louder. The Commander would have to listen very carefully to realise this (there is a certain hidden whisper of Jormag that's very different to the other whispers). Jormag toils in their slumber to wrest control away from their torment, they rely on Dragon's Watch being clever enough to figure out what's going on in order to save them from their torment. And really that's something they owe Jormag anyway having been responsible for it (having put them to sleep).

It all depends on whether the Commander can figure it out in time, and given how oblivious they can be (I REMEMBER YOU, YOU'RE A SPY I SAY ALOUD ON A CORSAIR SHIP) that's a real dice roll and anyone's guess.

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