Li / Killproof for Strikes are a Problem

[mindcircus.1506]

@Hyrai.8720 said:i can tell you from experience: a lot of pugs dont even manage to get gold on fraenir or kodans!omg!Really????You mean a team of 3 competent people carrying 7 others is not rewarded as well as a team of 10 people who come in prepared and experienced?Shocking!!!Those fiends!!!!... how dare they reward competent play with better loot!Thanks for sharing your experience... you don't think it was planned with way do you???so at this point its not even just about time anymore. its about getting more loot!Of course it's about more/better loot. Faster clears when everyone does their jobs correctly means more time to jump into other rewarding activities.Anet has never been shy about rewarding efficiency as part of encounter design. It's baked into Drizzlewood, it's baked into Dragon Arena at Dragonbash, it's baked into strikes, it's baked into Toypocalypse.The fact you do not understand the correlation between time spent and loot gain (and are passing this realization along as some kind of epiphany) shows a rather shocking level of misunderstanding of the issues at play.

[Cyninja.2954]

Meanwhile in my casual run yesterday as druid (I am no druid main, but figured I'd join a free for all strike for the first 3 "easy" bosses.) while waiting on other stuff to peak my interest.

Shiverpeaks no issue, though damage is "okay-ish" at best. Pretty much a stack of mediocre damage dealers. In part to not having ANY alacrity and barely quickness (no idea what the 2 Firebrand were doing, obviously not giving quickness). Oh yeah, we had the typical 3k dps Warrior in group.

Then we get to Fraenir, and 6 people basically manage to twice 1 shot themselves by standing in each other. No stability from our guardians. Me as basically solo heal on druid (going through the log just now, we did have a heal FB of at best questionable skill and looking at what skills he used, no skill at all) picking up people as best as I can with my elite (didn't take Search and Rescue since I didn't expect to need any rez on Fraenir). It obviously ended in a wipe. Not 1 of our Firebrands decided to use his Tome 3 for stab or aegis when 6-7 people went down. Everyone else ran face first into any damage possible, it was like a competition of: who can soak the most damage to annoy the healer.

Going through the logs just now, here are some highlights (no, I am not going to post the logs cause of name and shame and that's not the point here. Oh and FYI, this was the successful kill!):

• might uptime was around 22-23 stacks average on Icebrood Construct (no buff food or utility used), Fury uptime was 99% across the board (with minor exceptions for people who can't stack in second sub). Around 18-20 on Freanir with similar Fury cause I actually had to go staff even on the second try to compensate for braindead people
• no alacrity at all (we had no player who could give alacrity)
• a heal FB who did 2k dps and had a quickness uptime of 16% on self, yes 16%! Obviously one of those "I am a heal firebrand" players who has no clue how to itemize his class. Also never made use of his elite, so we shall never know if he actually had FmW or Mantra or w/e on.
• another FB with 6k dps providing quickness to 1 subgroup, basically a quickbrand who has no clue how to press buttons
• a warrior with 3.2k dps camping GS and having no clue what to do
• a waver doing 4.7k dps, not even going to get into his rotation. I wasn't even aware weavers could go this low on dps
• basically 3 damage dealers above 10k dps carrying the rest (with a staff Daredevil with no ideal rotation but good enough to hit around 27k on golem being at around 10.5k boss dps)

The sad part about all this is:Most of those players will never know how bad they are at this game because they got carried. Sorry, but unless I feel like wasting my time, I should not have to be forced to play with such players unless I specifically want to. Also no, I did not say anything during the run, politely said ty and bb after and left (since I joined with no expectations I have no right to criticize), and again this was on the 2 EASIEST bosses in the game.

[Craine.8162]

@"mindcircus.1506" said:The fact you do not understand the correlation between time spent and loot gain (and are passing this realization along as some kind of epiphany) shows a rather shocking level of misunderstanding of the issues at play.the way you formulated your comment and the fact that your conclusion to my comment is that i do not understand "the correlation between time spent and loot gain" really shows that you are neither able to read and understand a comment, nor able to deal with this topic objectively.

read Cristalyans comment again and tell me again how its not an epiphany to some people that the point of "elitism" is not to be in some kind of "exclusive" community but simply efficient and effective gameplay.

my following sentence

so at this point its not even just about time anymore. its about getting more loot!was meant as: in raids it doesnt matter how fast you kill the boss. you will always get the same loot. of course if you kill it faster you can go forward to the next boss quicker, increasing your overall loot/playtime. but the boss itself will always give the same rewards.strikes are different in that regard; a single boss gives different stages of rewards depending on how fast you kill it. so there is an additional factor to increase your loot/playtime. it seems some of those "i pugged with a no-kp group and got the kill anyway" preachers dont know/realise that, while most of them probably just dont care. which is fine by me, they can keep pugging with those groups. but they should respect that others do care and filter their groups by LI/kp to do so.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Hyrai.8720 said:snipThis the second time I have responded to one of your posts only to see a response using inflammatory language that is strangely edited to be far less aggressive and insulting 15-20 minutes later.Not sure what your game is but I think it's just a better idea to ignore you going forward.

[Craine.8162]

i did not edit it to be less aggressive.i edited it to add some explanation that i realised was missing to deliver my point.

[Cristalyan.5728]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:

LOOL !! This questions the meaning of "top raiders". If a raider needs a "good group" to complete the WoJ or Boneskinner for example, then he is not a "good" raider. He is at the same level with every random player building a PU Group. So, why is he asking for KP?

Why I said this - I pugged all the strikes. Mostly after doing Shiverpeaks/Fraenir/Kodans, if the players considered the team to be good, then we continued. And most of the times we killed Bone and Completed WoJ from the first try. Again - why the need of KP? If ONE of the players is a very good one, he can decide every Strike.So, you can solo every strike, including WoJ and Boneskinner? Because that's what your claim is about - being able to carry other 9 players even if their input in the fight is minimal or zero. If so, i'd really like a video of it.

Sorry? Can you see a statement in my post that I can solo the two bosses? The topic is about KP needed to enter a group for strikes. And I said that even if ONE of the players is very good ... That means that a good player can help his mediocre team mates to win the fight. This if he is interested to win the fight that day.

If we take your words as true that means the formula: ONE good player + 9 mediocre = ONE (aka solo). It is easy to see that you consider the other 9 players having a value of ZERO. It seems that your opinion about the "non elite" players without 250 LI is even worse than I thought.

@"Hyrai.8720" said:

your post shows that you have no idea about raiding or strikes whatsoever. (or the "elitist" community in that regard)being a "top raider" doesnt just mean killing a boss. its about consistency and time.so at this point its not even just about time anymore. its about getting more loot!

Indeed, it seems I have no idea - but not about raids or strikes. I have no idea of the "engine" pushing the raiders community. Thanks for clarifications. Let's see:

1. being a "top raider" doesnt just mean killing a boss. its about consistency and time - that means you want to clear the raid as fast as possible to have enough time to stay on LA complaining you have no content? I don't think this is 100% accurate, because we have the second line:
2. so at this point its not even just about time anymore. its about getting more loot! That is! The raiders community who asked for the raids for the sake of difficulty (if you read the archives you can find enough statements that they want the raid even if it has modest rewards) is very concerned by the LOOT!

Conclusion - the raiding community is concerned to grab the loot in the fastest way to have enough time to waste on complains that they have no content. No matter that in this way they discard a lot of any polite attitude towards the other players - going to the point they consider them to be ZERO -see my previous answer to our colleague.

HM - excellent! This is a way to spread the "good atmosphere" existing around the raids in the Open World too.

[Krzysztof.5973]

So, you can solo every strike, including WoJ and Boneskinner? Because that's what your claim is about - being able to carry other 9 players even if their input in the fight is minimal or zero. If so, i'd really like a video of it.

Sorry? Can you see a statement in my post that I can solo the two bosses? The topic is about KP needed to enter a

group

for strikes. And I said that even if ONE of the players is very good ... That means that a good player can help his mediocre team mates to win the fight. This if he is interested to win the fight that day.

If we take your words as true that means the formula:

ONE good player + 9 mediocre = ONE (aka solo)

. It is easy to see that you consider the other 9 players having a value of ZERO. It seems that your opinion about the "non elite" players without 250 LI is even worse than I thought.

So is it medicore team + very good player or zero input team? There is a giant gap in-between those two.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:Sorry? Can you see a statement in my post that I can solo the two bosses? The topic is about KP needed to enter a group for strikes. And I said that even if ONE of the players is very good ... That means that a good player can help his mediocre team mates to win the fight. This if he is interested to win the fight that day.

If we take your words as true that means the formula: ONE good player + 9 mediocre = ONE (aka solo). It is easy to see that you consider the other 9 players having a value of ZERO. It seems that your opinion about the "non elite" players without 250 LI is even worse than I thought.

Yeah, of course you can carry 9 other people through strikes. I did so on Heal Scourge and got more frustrated with every single day. I couldnt play the classes i wanted, because ive never heard of a DPS Ele being able to save the group from dying to random stuff. Its just so much more healthy for my mental to look for groups with LI. Most of them are still bad, but at least i can play what i want and still get strikes done.

1. being a "top raider" doesnt just mean killing a boss. its about consistency and time - that means you want to clear the raid as fast as possible to have enough time to stay on LA complaining you have no content? I don't think this is 100% accurate, because we have the second line:

No, i dont. I want to clear stuff as fast as possible because it feels really nice seeing those healthbars melt.

2. so at this point its not even just about time anymore. its about getting more loot! That is! The raiders community who asked for the raids for the sake of difficulty (if you read the archives you can find enough statements that they want the raid even if it has modest rewards) is very concerned by the LOOT!

And now you think that every raider thinks the same. Surprise, we dont. Some only clear raids for the loot, others because they have fun doing so. Theres a reason why some people clear bosses multiple times a week.

[Shikaru.7618]

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

LOOL !! This questions the meaning of "top raiders". If a raider needs a "good group" to complete the WoJ or Boneskinner for example, then he is not a "good" raider. He is at the same level with every random player building a PU Group. So, why is he asking for KP?

Why I said this - I pugged all the strikes. Mostly after doing Shiverpeaks/Fraenir/Kodans, if the players considered the team to be good, then we continued. And most of the times we killed Bone and Completed WoJ from the first try. Again - why the need of KP? If ONE of the players is a very good one, he can decide every Strike.So, you can solo every strike, including WoJ and Boneskinner? Because that's what your claim is about - being able to carry other 9 players even if their input in the fight is minimal or zero. If so, i'd really like a video of it.

Sorry? Can you see a statement in my post that I can solo the two bosses? The topic is about KP needed to enter a

group

for strikes. And I said that even if ONE of the players is very good ... That means that a good player can help his mediocre team mates to win the fight. This if he is interested to win the fight that day.

If we take your words as true that means the formula:

ONE good player + 9 mediocre = ONE (aka solo)

. It is easy to see that you consider the other 9 players having a value of ZERO. It seems that your opinion about the "non elite" players without 250 LI is even worse than I thought.

@"Hyrai.8720" said:

your post shows that you have no idea about raiding or strikes whatsoever. (or the "elitist" community in that regard)being a "top raider" doesnt just mean killing a boss. its about consistency and time.so at this point its not even just about time anymore. its about getting more loot!

Indeed, it seems I have no idea - but not about raids or strikes. I have no idea of the "engine" pushing the raiders community. Thanks for clarifications. Let's see:

1. being a "top raider" doesnt just mean killing a boss. its about consistency and time
   - that means you want to clear the raid as fast as possible to have enough time to stay on LA complaining you have no content? I don't think this is 100% accurate, because we have the second line:
2. so at this point its not even just about time anymore. its about getting more loot!
   That is! The raiders community who asked for the raids for the sake of difficulty (if you read the archives you can find enough statements that they want the raid even if it has modest rewards) is very concerned by the LOOT!

Conclusion - the raiding community is concerned to grab the loot in the fastest way to have enough time to waste on complains that they have no content. No matter that in this way they discard a lot of any polite attitude towards the other players - going to the point they consider them to be ZERO -see my previous answer to our colleague.

HM - excellent! This is a way to spread the "good atmosphere" existing around the raids in the Open World too.

You can spit all of the hyperbole and tin foil hat theories you want but it does not change the fact that we do not want to play with casual open worlders in strikes. We are not hiding that fact. In fact we are explicitly stating stay the hell away from our groups if you dont have raid experience. There are many other groups that open worlders can join.

Zero value isnt quite right but pretty close. As stated by anet, the average player outputs 10x less damage than top players so a squad with 2 raiders will output more damage than a squad with 10 casual players. I certainly can carry a group of 9 other open worlders if I so choose to but do I want to? Absolutely not. They can still complete the content without raiders in the squad. No one is entitled to my time if I choose not to give it.

[Craine.8162]

1.That means you want to clear the raid as fast as possible to have enough time to stay on LA complaining you have no content?i want to clear the raid as fast as possible to have enough time to:do strikesdo fractal dailiesplay the current living worldplay a little WvWkeep up with open world and achievements in general

also, to add another aspect to this:for me personally (and for many other raiders i know) its not entirely about time efficiency. its also about the satisfying feeling of having a smooth, clean kill on a difficult boss (which builds the bridge to 2.). on the other hand, its very frustrating to get whiped several times for stupid reasons when the squad wasnt clearly marked as beginner/training.

2.The raiders community who asked for the raids for the sake of difficulty (if you read the archives you can find enough statements that they want the raid even if it has modest rewards) is very concerned by the LOOT!as i explained in my previous post, there is no point in being concerned about the loot in raids, as its always the same.but since the rewards for strikes are the way they are, its perfectly viable to be concerned about the loot, isnt it?also, since strikes are rather easy compared to raids, it's a pretty far reach to say raiders play them because of their difficulty.now if it's not for the difficulty, what else would i play them for? apart from loot, there's only the fun left. and its up to me to decide what playstyle i find the most fun, isnt it? (see my addition to 1.)

Conclusion - the raiding community is concerned to grab the loot in the fastest way to have enough time to waste on complains that they have no content. No matter that in this way they discard a lot of any polite attitude towards the other players - going to the point they consider them to be ZERO -see my previous answer to our colleague.

i think its kinda weird that this kind of polite attitude is often expected to be a one way street. experienced raiders are supposed to be polite towards more casual players, allowing them to join their squads.meanwhile the players complaining about li/kp requirements are not willing to respect the raider's choice to filter their groups in order to play with like-minded people, to a point they request ArenaNet to do something about it. thats rather impolite if you ask me.

[Moradorin.6217]

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

@Ecoxiss.1079 said:Lowering the Loot for everyone isnt helping much tbh. Thats just making strikes useless for everyone :)They should just remove the KP Items or ban the process in lfg at all.Maybe an Easy and Hard Mode then?

If they remove kps then how would top raiders know how to get a good group?Easy and hardmode scenario would be like the discussions for ez and hard mode for raids

who cares. Strikes ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A STEPPING STONE! So pretty much, what I mean is, I don't see why people need to be able to exclude the people who need help and exerience. I think strikes have no valid reason to be in the game if it just becomes another part of the game that excludes people trying to learn. I also don't think it makes sense for people trying to learn to just be a squad of 10 noobs. GIve me a break. If people who do know what to do arent willing to group with the people learning IT WONT WORK AND SHOULD JUST BE DELETED.

Bottom line: People who think it should have KP so they can 100% avoid new players should go find a new game. THis is a community game and its more than just getting the most loot in the least time. People who only care about that are in the wrong game anyway, its not like gw2 offers good loot. I mean its more efficient to work and hour and buy gold w gems if you just want loot go get a job.

[Senfdieb.3985]

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

LOOL !! This questions the meaning of "top raiders". If a raider needs a "good group" to complete the WoJ or Boneskinner for example, then he is not a "good" raider. He is at the same level with every random player building a PU Group. So, why is he asking for KP?

Why I said this - I pugged all the strikes. Mostly after doing Shiverpeaks/Fraenir/Kodans, if the players considered the team to be good, then we continued. And most of the times we killed Bone and Completed WoJ from the first try. Again - why the need of KP? If ONE of the players is a very good one, he can decide every Strike.So, you can solo every strike, including WoJ and Boneskinner? Because that's what your claim is about - being able to carry other 9 players even if their input in the fight is minimal or zero. If so, i'd really like a video of it.

Sorry? Can you see a statement in my post that I can solo the two bosses? The topic is about KP needed to enter a

group

for strikes. And I said that even if ONE of the players is very good ... That means that a good player can help his mediocre team mates to win the fight. This if he is interested to win the fight that day.

If we take your words as true that means the formula:

ONE good player + 9 mediocre = ONE (aka solo)

. It is easy to see that you consider the other 9 players having a value of ZERO. It seems that your opinion about the "non elite" players without 250 LI is even worse than I thought.

@"Hyrai.8720" said:

your post shows that you have no idea about raiding or strikes whatsoever. (or the "elitist" community in that regard)being a "top raider" doesnt just mean killing a boss. its about consistency and time.so at this point its not even just about time anymore. its about getting more loot!

Indeed, it seems I have no idea - but not about raids or strikes. I have no idea of the "engine" pushing the raiders community. Thanks for clarifications. Let's see:

1. being a "top raider" doesnt just mean killing a boss. its about consistency and time
   - that means you want to clear the raid as fast as possible to have enough time to stay on LA complaining you have no content? I don't think this is 100% accurate, because we have the second line:
2. so at this point its not even just about time anymore. its about getting more loot!
   That is! The raiders community who asked for the raids for the sake of difficulty (if you read the archives you can find enough statements that they want the raid even if it has modest rewards) is very concerned by the LOOT!

Conclusion - the raiding community is concerned to grab the loot in the fastest way to have enough time to waste on complains that they have no content. No matter that in this way they discard a lot of any polite attitude towards the other players - going to the point they consider them to be ZERO -see my previous answer to our colleague.

HM - excellent! This is a way to spread the "good atmosphere" existing around the raids in the Open World too.

The thing is, if you want to play with mediocre players, you'll have to look for LI groups. I would consider myself a mediocre player and my dps benchmarks are somewhere between 70-85% of SC/LN Benchmarks (having bit over 500 LI so far). I guess the average open world player wont get 50% of the benchmark. Expressed in school marks they would not pass the test/exam whatever.This is not school so its fine, but think about why there are different type of schools? If you mix people with a too big difference in knowledge (or ability to perform in a video game) all the time, it is just bad for both.

[Craine.8162]

@Moradorin.6217 said:who cares. Strikes ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A STEPPING STONE! So pretty much, what I mean is, I don't see why people need to be able to exclude the people who need help and exerience. I think strikes have no valid reason to be in the game if it just becomes another part of the game that excludes people trying to learn. I also don't think it makes sense for people trying to learn to just be a squad of 10 noobs. GIve me a break. If people who do know what to do arent willing to group with the people learning IT WONT WORK AND SHOULD JUST BE DELETED.

riddle me this:how did players learn how to raid when raids were first introduced to gw2? there wasnt anyone to teach them.yea, you probably figured it out yourself: trial and error.when i first started raiding with my guild, we would spent HOURS on escort before we managed to get the kill. we didnt give up. we analyzed our gameplay, builds, squad compositions. and with more time and practice, we improved, moving forward to other bosses.it went on like this for MONTHS, and by now we are able to clear every boss within a reasonable time.

and there comes you, completely unprepaired, expecting me to sacrifice even more of my time to teach you, just so you dont have to spend months on practice.it saddens me that people actually have the audacity to make such demands. and that is with hundreds, maybe thousands of players, groups and guilds voluntarily offering training runs already!

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:Sorry? Can you see a statement in my post that I can solo the two bosses? The topic is about KP needed to enter a group for strikes. And I said that even if ONE of the players is very good ... That means that a good player can help his mediocre team mates to win the fight. This if he is interested to win the fight that day.

If we take your words as true that means the formula: ONE good player + 9 mediocre = ONE (aka solo). It is easy to see that you consider the other 9 players having a value of ZERO. It seems that your opinion about the "non elite" players without 250 LI is even worse than I thought.I guess we differ in the definition of the term "mediocre" then. Because i'm quite sure that in the team of 9 mediocre players and one good player, the good player would do at least half (if not more) of the job of the whole group. That is enough to clear Shiverpeaks, might be enough to do Fraenir and Kodans, but is nowhere close enough to be able to clear Whisper and Boneskinner. It's completely normal to see mediocre players doing 2-3k damage, see half of your group dead before last phase of Whisper, and see most of the remaining players die within 10 seconds after that last phase starts. It's also completely normal to see all mediocre players die on the first aoe in Boneskinner.

Yes, that can be mitigated with enough healers and enough people doing actual damage, but the keyword being "enough" - and a single good player is simply not enough for that.

And you even admit that indirectly. You said "Mostly after doing Shiverpeaks/Fraenir/Kodans, if the players considered the team to be good, then we continued.". So, there were also groups you didn't consider to be "good enough" to continue, and, as such, you never really had any experience in dealing with those two strikes in a truly mediocre group. After all that speech about "one good player being able to help others to win", in truth you were also prefiltering your teammates for those last two strikes. You just were doing it at a slightly later point.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Moradorin.6217" said:who cares. Strikes ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A STEPPING STONE!And they are.An inexperienced group can clear the content...all of it. It might take a few pulls on Boneskinner or WoJ but it can absolutely be done.So pretty much, what I mean is, I don't see why people need to be able to exclude the people who need help and exerience.Since strikes can be cleared by an inexperienced group, you don't "need" the help.I think strikes have no valid reason to be in the game if it just becomes another part of the game that excludes people trying to learn.So if people refuse to carry you through the content it should not be there... wow. This just gets better.I also don't think it makes sense for people trying to learn to just be a squad of 10 noobs. GIve me a break. If people who do know what to do arent willing to group with the people learning IT WONT WORK AND SHOULD JUST BE DELETED.So the only way to learn is to be carried. Check.I wonder why people are asking for LI.Bottom line: People who think it should have KP so they can 100% avoid new players should go find a new game. THis is a community game and its more than just getting the most loot in the least time.So basically anyone who doesn't believe as you do shouldn't be allowed to enjoy the game in the way they like...in a way that hurts no one and does not violate the ToS in any way?You, good sir, have exposed the toxicity so perfectly and provided rare insight into the minds of people starting these threads.I sincerely applaud your honesty...as ugly and hypocritical as it may be.

[Tails.9372]

@maddoctor.2738 said:They already did add multiple difficulty options by making Strikes of different difficulty levels. That the community is not taking advantage of that is quite puzzling.You're right, if you don't care for the experience of playing the content then (iirc) there is nothing you can get from strikes which requires you to play a specific one. I suspect that this however is going to change with the end of the current season.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:Yeah, of course you can carry 9 other people through strikes. I did so on Heal Scourge and got more frustrated with every single day. I couldnt play the classes i wanted, because ive never heard of a DPS Ele being able to save the group from dying to random stuff. Its just so much more healthy for my mental to look for groups with LI. Most of them are still bad, but at least i can play what i want and still get strikes done.I read this and felt it. I've been hard carrying newbie groups (on Scourge as well) for months now in "All Welcome" groups and every time a thread like this pops up all I can think about is:

1. The fact that 1-2 people in just about every group cannot be bothered to get the mission in a timely manner and don't even ask.
2. The dozens of players (mainly Longbow Rangers) who have to be told to stack... you know the basic of any GW2 group encounter.
3. The insane amounts of "DPS" players who can't manage 4k/sec on Shiverpeaks.
4. The 1 or 2 people in every single squad who die repeatedly, making zero effort to adjust and just keep going into downstate over and over.

And then I see threads like this one. That name call people who choose not to deal with this level of inconsiderate behavior and clearly substandard performance as "toxic" or "elitist" and claim they are "bad for the game/community". People calling those who refuse to deal with it "stupid" without fear or any form of moderation.And I say to myself...Why bother?The community in this game is just not worth the effort or the patience.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

@"Ecoxiss.1079" said:Lowering the Loot for everyone isnt helping much tbh. Thats just making strikes useless for everyone :)They should just remove the KP Items or ban the process in lfg at all.Maybe an Easy and Hard Mode then?

If they remove kps then how would top raiders know how to get a good group?Easy and hardmode scenario would be like the discussions for ez and hard mode for raids

who cares. Strikes ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A STEPPING STONE! So pretty much, what I mean is, I don't see why people need to be able to exclude the people who need help and exerience.

Again why are these people entitled to the time and effort of other on demand? Why is one group who put in work suddenly obligated to sacrifice their own enjoyment , time, and effort for those who are not willing to put in the same ?

I think strikes have no valid reason to be in the game if it just becomes another part of the game that excludes people trying to learn.People who want to learn aren't excluded. Its people who want to be carried that are complaining they aren't being carried. This follows on to:I also don't think it makes sense for people trying to learn to just be a squad of 10 noobs.Why? Because they will fail? Failure and frustration are all part of learning? You think those that now want to play with other like minded and experienced players didn't experience that?

Give me a break. If people who do know what to do arent willing to group with the people learning IT WONT WORK AND SHOULD JUST BE DELETED.

Carry me or else this content shouldn't be created / removed? This is entitlement...You're not entitled to anything from anyone. If someone wants to teach, they will teach, if someone wants to carry, they will carry. You are in no position to demand either from someone.

Bottom line: People who think it should have KP so they can 100% avoid new players should go find a new game."People who are playing the game the way they want with the people they want to play with should find another game"This is a community game and its more than just getting the most loot in the least time. People who only care about that are in the wrong game anyway, its not like gw2 offers good loot.If this was true then why would people be so annoyed by failing as a part of learning, or not being carried? Some people don't want to learn at all..they just want to clear the instance and get the rewards.

[Cerioth.7062]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:That's a problem which could be avoided by Arenanet implementing multiple difficulty options.They already did add multiple difficulty options by making Strikes of different difficulty levels.There is

one

difficulty option per Strike Mission.Why not have two or three per Strike Mission?

This could please the people who want Shiverpeaks Pass to be harder, the people who want Boneskinner to be easier and the people with wishes in between.

My guildies (who do not clear raids or run t4 fractals) actually started with the easy strikes - Shiverpeaks, Fraenir, bears. Once they started feeling comfortable with those, they began doing Whisper and Boneskinner. Did not take them too long to learn, and even though the dps is not raid level, our guild groups can now comfortably do the hardest strike missions and understand the mechanics. It's not rocket science. Theyve also got a big confidence boost from being able to survive Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag, and it has gotten some of them into raiding and coming up with more helpful build variety and improving themselves as players.

[Cyndercat.7615]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

@Ecoxiss.1079 said:Lowering the Loot for everyone isnt helping much tbh. Thats just making strikes useless for everyone :)They should just remove the KP Items or ban the process in lfg at all.Maybe an Easy and Hard Mode then?

If they remove kps then how would top raiders know how to get a good group?Easy and hardmode scenario would be like the discussions for ez and hard mode for raids

who cares. Strikes ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A STEPPING STONE! So pretty much, what I mean is, I don't see why people need to be able to exclude the people who need help and exerience. I think strikes have no valid reason to be in the game if it just becomes another part of the game that excludes people trying to learn. I also don't think it makes sense for people trying to learn to just be a squad of 10 noobs. GIve me a break. If people who do know what to do arent willing to group with the people learning IT WONT WORK AND SHOULD JUST BE DELETED.

Bottom line: People who think it should have KP so they can 100% avoid new players should go find a new game. THis is a community game and its more than just getting the most loot in the least time. People who only care about that are in the wrong game anyway, its not like gw2 offers good loot. I mean its more efficient to work and hour and buy gold w gems if you just want loot go get a job.

Its not up to you to decide what kind of game this is, or what people should be spending their time in game doing.

If anet wanted strikes to only be a learning tool, they shouldnt have added loot to it.

[Astralporing.1957]

@zombyturtle.5980 said:If anet wanted strikes to only be a learning tool, they shouldnt have added loot to it.Without loot, noone would use them for learning either.

[Moradorin.6217]

@Hyrai.8720 said:

@"Moradorin.6217" said:who cares. Strikes ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A STEPPING STONE! So pretty much, what I mean is, I don't see why people need to be able to exclude the people who need help and exerience. I think strikes have no valid reason to be in the game if it just becomes another part of the game that excludes people trying to learn. I also don't think it makes sense for people trying to learn to just be a squad of 10 noobs. GIve me a break. If people who do know what to do arent willing to group with the people learning IT WONT WORK AND SHOULD JUST BE DELETED.

riddle me this:how did players learn how to raid when raids were first introduced to gw2? there wasnt anyone to teach them.yea, you probably figured it out yourself: trial and error.when i first started raiding with my guild, we would spent HOURS on escort before we managed to get the kill. we didnt give up. we analyzed our gameplay, builds, squad compositions. and with more time and practice, we improved, moving forward to other bosses.it went on like this for MONTHS, and by now we are able to clear every boss within a reasonable time.

and there comes you, completely unprepaired, expecting me to sacrifice even more of my time to teach you, just so you dont have to spend months on practice.it saddens me that people actually have the audacity to make such demands. and that is with hundreds, maybe

thousands

of players, groups and guilds

voluntarily

offering training runs already!

Sure, but my point is that I dont think treating strikes like raids and CMs makes sense and I dont think its a good trend. If anything the rewards should be tweaked so that we all get extra rewards when we DONT exclude people from the squad that are less experienced. Im not sure the best way to do that. Maybe give rank levels like fractals and give people a bonus reward at the end if they group with x number of lower tier people. This would make it more rewarding for experienced people willing to take the time which seems likely to help people who are learning. Win Win. Heck then I bet people wouldn't care anyway about some groups asking for KP. To me it just sounded like a bad trend so I threw my view into the mix. I dont think strikes are all that hard. Im usually able to do them pretty easy with a squad sourced from "X Strike anyone welcome" type messages. Once in a while one may be an issue if we have too many people w like zero damage etc, but I mean even then usually w 2-3 good players you can still do them so I just dont get what your trip is about wanting to support the idea of KP for strikes. It seems really really silly,

[Excursion.9752]

People should be able to form groups how ever they want. Just because one does not meet the requirement does not mean it should be changed. The great part about this game is that your not required to join someone else's group. You can always start your own and form it the way you see fit.

I like to have fun time to time and put in random fun request like must wear yellow armor or bring cake.

[Tails.9372]

@"Moradorin.6217" said:give rank levels like fractals and give people a bonus reward at the end if they group with x number of lower tier people. This would make it more rewarding for experienced people willing to take the time which seems likely to help people who are learning. Win Win. Heck then I bet people wouldn't care anyway about some groups asking for KP.As long as the higher difficulties are more rewarding people are going to flock towards them, creating the same issues we have rn for other content except for those who only care about progressing towards a specific goal given that it can be accomplished by playing the lower difficulties. If you really want to address the issue more effectively you need to have multiple difficulties aimed towards the more general player subgroups which all give out the same rewards making the difficulty more of a choice of gameplay preference than anything else. This way players who don't want to play easier content because they find it boring would have less to worry about some "leeches" dragging down their party while the more casual players wouldn't be "gated" out of the content by these so called "elitists".

[mindcircus.1506]

@"Moradorin.6217" said:Sure, but my point is that I dont think treating strikes like raids and CMs makes sense and I dont think its a good trend. If anything the rewards should be tweaked so that we all get extra rewards when we DONT exclude people from the squad that are less experienced.Out of curiosity, since you started in this thread with a nice big heap of ugly...Have you every raided in this game?How many strikes have you personally tagged up for and lead?Im not sure the best way to do that. Maybe give rank levels like fractals and give people a bonus reward at the end if they group with x number of lower tier people. This would make it more rewarding for experienced people willing to take the time which seems likely to help people who are learning.So now it's not "carry me or delete the content", it's "carry me and give me extra loot for being carried"Shocking.Speaking as someone who has actually run hundreds of "All Welcome" strike squads, do You know what would make running open squads a more rewarding experience?-10/10 people reading squad chat.-Low performers not rage-quitting after the first unsuccessful pull and actually being willing to learn.-A return to the days when it was considered common courtesy to say "I have not done this before, anything I should know?" the moment they join a team-Players taking a moment to invest themselves in getting a proper set of exotic gear.-An end to threads like these that claim no one is doing what I do and that the patience I am displaying daily actually has value.

If Anet wants to get involved in helping me help others 2 more blues and a green is not going to do it...They can give me a working Gear Check.