The biggest barrier to raids

[A R W E N.6895]

Its not about skills or difficulty, its about getting 10 people together. That's the biggest challenge and the biggest barrier to raid.

Peace

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Not really.

More like getting 10 people together, and have each of them regard their playmate's skill level as 'acceptable'.

[panzerdragon.8791]

Hi Arwen ,

In my experience it depends on the night. For Dhuum finding competent randoms with experience in mechanics and able to back up mechanics was much harder. On less popular wings like w2 yeh getting a group is half the battle. Heck getting a hand kite is most of the win condition for our pug runs.

Cheers

[Ayrilana.1396]

@A R W E N.6895 said:Its not about skills or difficulty, its about getting 10 people together. That's the biggest challenge and the biggest barrier to raid.

Peace

Strikes get 10 players together all the time so this is really a non-issue. If there's an issue with raids, it'd not due to the quantity of players needed for the squad.

[Virdo.1540]

Its about getting 10 man & about not being thrown out cuz everyone uses arc, and most are toxic too.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Virdo.1540 said:Its about getting 10 man & about not being thrown out cuz everyone uses arc, and most are toxic too.

Most are not toxic. It only seems that way if you join a group that clearly indicated certain requirements and you join despite knowing that you do not meet them.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:Its about getting 10 man & about not being thrown out cuz everyone uses arc, and most are toxic too.

Most are not toxic. It only seems that way if you join a group that clearly indicated certain requirements and you join despite knowing that you do not meet them.

That's every group though. Almost no one PUGs raids anymore, that was a 2017 thing when the game still had optimistic players. These days when you see a raid PUG on the LFG its people still expecting meta classes and builds, etc, and the only real difference from a hardcore group is that they might not kick you if you don't have full Ascended and kill proofs.

Its like the difference between a white dress and a black dress, each for different occasions but both overtly formal.

Here's an thought for other veterans: Please stop defending things that drive new players away. Every time you say "dead game" its your responsibility, and the older the game gets the more important this becomes.

One thing that might help is to allow "public" raids like with Strike Missions.

[A R W E N.6895]

Nope, not about being toxic. Usually the toxic people are the one with zero skills that blame their problems on others. Its really about assembling a 10 person group and then getting into raid. Takes more time getting 10 people than doing the actual boss. Hence the barrier.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:Its about getting 10 man & about not being thrown out cuz everyone uses arc, and most are toxic too.

Most are not toxic. It only seems that way if you join a group that clearly indicated certain requirements and you join despite knowing that you do not meet them.

That's every group. No one PUGs raids anymore, that was a 2017 thing when the game still had optimistic players. These days when you see a raid PUG on the LFG its people still expecting meta classes and builds, etc, and the only real difference from a hardcore group is that they might not kick you if you don't have full Ascended and kill proofs.

Its like the difference between a white dress and a black dress, each for different occasions but both overtly formal.

Here's an thought for other veterans: Please stop defending things that drive new players away. Every time you say "dead game" its your responsibility, and the older the game gets the more important this becomes.

People pug all the time. If you want a none-meta class/build group then feel free to create your own. With how many people that keep creating these threads complaining about raids, surely there's at least 10 of you with the same mindset to form a group like that.

[A R W E N.6895]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:Its about getting 10 man & about not being thrown out cuz everyone uses arc, and most are toxic too.

Most are not toxic. It only seems that way if you join a group that clearly indicated certain requirements and you join despite knowing that you do not meet them.

That's every group. No one PUGs raids anymore, that was a 2017 thing when the game still had optimistic players. These days when you see a raid PUG on the LFG its people still expecting meta classes and builds, etc, and the only real difference from a hardcore group is that they might not kick you if you don't have full Ascended and kill proofs.

Its like the difference between a white dress and a black dress, each for different occasions but both overtly formal.

Here's an thought for other veterans: Please stop defending things that drive new players away. Every time you say "dead game" its your responsibility, and the older the game gets the more important this becomes.

People pug all the time. If you want a none-meta class/build group then feel free to create your own. With how many people that keep creating these threads complaining about raids, surely there's at least 10 of you with the same mindset to form a group like that.

Not the point of this thread, ill just repeat myself the barrier to raid is the number of people required to actually do the raid. People who want to play non meta build can always LFG and guess what, they will wait and wait and wait and probably get their group after a ton of waiting.

Say it was a five person thing like fractals and that it was balanced toward five people, I honestly think people would venture way more in raids. Just my thought.

[Juan.6124]

You are right. This is such a severe issue that people wrote a song about it.

[A R W E N.6895]

@"DirtyDan.4759" said:You are right. This is such a severe issue that people wrote a song about it.

HAHAHAHA this is incredible!

[Ayrilana.1396]

@A R W E N.6895 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"Virdo.1540" said:Its about getting 10 man & about not being thrown out cuz everyone uses arc, and most are toxic too.

Most are not toxic. It only seems that way if you join a group that clearly indicated certain requirements and you join despite knowing that you do not meet them.

That's every group. No one PUGs raids anymore, that was a 2017 thing when the game still had optimistic players. These days when you see a raid PUG on the LFG its people still expecting meta classes and builds, etc, and the only real difference from a hardcore group is that they might not kick you if you don't have full Ascended and kill proofs.

Its like the difference between a white dress and a black dress, each for different occasions but both overtly formal.

Here's an thought for other veterans: Please stop defending things that drive new players away. Every time you say "dead game" its your responsibility, and the older the game gets the more important this becomes.

People pug all the time. If you want a none-meta class/build group then feel free to create your own. With how many people that keep creating these threads complaining about raids, surely there's at least 10 of you with the same mindset to form a group like that.

Not the point of this thread, ill just repeat myself the barrier to raid is the number of people required to actually do the raid. People who want to play non meta build can always LFG and guess what, they will wait and wait and wait and probably get their group after a ton of waiting.

Say it was a five person thing like fractals and that it was balanced toward five people, I honestly think people would venture way more in raids. Just my thought.

Then it's hardly a barrier if this impacts less than 10 players.

[maddoctor.2738]

So the real problem with Raids is that guilds aren't working as they should be. If your guild can't get 10 players together at a given time then it's time to start recruiting, or consider a different guild.

[flog.3485]

The biggest problem is that most assume raids should be puggable the same way you could pug for an event in open world event.

And that will never happen because raids will never enter the realms of the to-do list endgame progression.

The best solution would be to introduce guild content as part of the games to-do list endgame progression so that less players feel like they need to be able to pug pretty much everything in the game. Or introduce end game content that lumps fractals, raids and strike missions altogether so that the incentives to become part of a group and by extension a guild becomes so much high that most players see the benefits of joining a guild, even though there isn’t much reason to join it the first place.

[Besetment.9187]

Raid like content is puggable in other games. In Tera when Manaya's Core was endgame, I pug 3 and 2 manned hard mode (MCHM), which took a lot of fails, but I had the core mechanics down from doing normal mode, then 5 man hard mode. And I still screwed up 2 man a lot. The community just had a really different attitude. The game also does a better job of teaching you to play with a kind of raider's mindset by mercilessly one shotting everyone in the party if you don't overwrite this debuff with that one at the right time, in the right place.

The last time I played Tera though, item level crept up so high you could solo MCHM in 90 seconds and ignore all mechanics. It was kinda sad to see because Shandra Manaya was a really fun boss in its day. Its funny looking back at the death montages. Is that even a thing in GW2?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Besetment.9187 said:Raid like content is puggable in other games. In Tera when Manaya's Core was endgame, I pug 3 and 2 manned hard mode (MCHM), which took a lot of fails, but I had the core mechanics down from doing normal mode, then 5 man hard mode. And I still screwed up 2 man a lot. The community just had a really different attitude. The game also does a better job of teaching you to play with a kind of raider's mindset by mercilessly one shotting everyone in the party if you don't overwrite this debuff with that one at the right time, in the right place.

This is actually a big issue here. GW2s mechanics ans combat system, as unique and great it may be with lack of traditional trinity and build freedom and everything, leads to an insane performance gap between players.

I can't recall a single MMORPG I have played where player performance was this spread appart.

Pair that with the next part:

@Besetment.9187 said:The last time I played Tera though, item level crept up so high you could solo MCHM in 90 seconds and ignore all mechanics. It was kinda sad to see because Shandra Manaya was a really fun boss in its day. Its funny looking back at the death montages. Is that even a thing in GW2?

No it is not. At least not as much as most other MMORPGs. While there certainly has been power creep with each expansion with elite specializations, there is no itemization creep to the extent that content becomes insignificant.

Raids today for example are far easier than years ago. Both due to a wider availability of compositions as well as power creep of elite specs. They still require a certain minimum personal skill level though.

Which is the issue at hand:Players in GW2 have to get better and improve in order to succeed and clear this content, unlike other games where the item power creep just takes care of this issue.

[Vilin.8056]

@"Besetment.9187" said:Raid like content is puggable in other games. In Tera when Manaya's Core was endgame, I pug 3 and 2 manned hard mode (MCHM), which took a lot of fails, but I had the core mechanics down from doing normal mode, then 5 man hard mode. And I still screwed up 2 man a lot. The community just had a really different attitude. The game also does a better job of teaching you to play with a kind of raider's mindset by mercilessly one shotting everyone in the party if you don't overwrite this debuff with that one at the right time, in the right place.

The last time I played Tera though, item level crept up so high you could solo MCHM in 90 seconds and ignore all mechanics. It was kinda sad to see because Shandra Manaya was a really fun boss in its day. Its funny looking back at the death montages. Is that even a thing in GW2?

Yes, but we call it dungeon bosses.Here's how difficult it was 7 years back:

[Besetment.9187]

I don't think power creep solved any issues in Tera though. If anything, it made you complacent, since you no longer need to deal with mechanics in over-levelled content, you never learn them. That was a problem Tera had that doesn't effect GW2 - it left behind a mass grave of old content, trivialised by item power scaling.

When I mentioned death montages, I meant that I had a lot of fun and memorable moments in groups that wiped over and over until it became a comic strip worthy of uploading to youtube. There was a mindset in Tera that you are going to wipe a lot, so you might as well get used to it. For me at least, getting used to failure meant laughing when someone spectacularly drops the ball. And its funny because I've done it too. Getting my poop pushed in over and over did make me better at the game so it was a rite of passage in a way.

I would consider Kelsaik back then to be harder than any strike mission in GW2 right now and that was levelling content in Tera. You had to learn right there and then that this is what the game does - its going to punish everyone for your mistakes and until you rectify those mistakes, the game ends here - you will not get any further than this. Despite this, I never saw anyone get kicked and I never saw entry requirements to do Kelsaik. The GW2 community just has a different attitude in pugs.

[Besetment.9187]

@"Vilin.8056" said:Here's how difficult it was 7 years back:

Ahh I remember making all of those mistakes. Good times. Look how few boons they have!

How I learned dungeons was really weird though. There was this one guy in WvW that was rich and back at release you don't get to be rich if you WvW exclusively. He made all his money doing dungeons and he showed us all the corner blocking strats and AI cheese in the WvW voip server. I have no idea how he learned it or if someone taught him (and how they learned it).

Hell that might explain it. Games like Tera keep trashing their own content by power creeping until only the newest stuff matters or is challenging. So you never get out of that mindset of learning through failure. But the cost of that is great boss encounters last year become irrelevant this year and you'll never have that experience again (unless you can find enough people to deliberately under level old content for old time's sake). In GW2 however, you can grab 5 noobs and still get wrecked by Subject Alpha in 2020. Silver lining perhaps?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Vilin.8056 said:

@"Besetment.9187" said:Raid like content is puggable in other games. In Tera when Manaya's Core was endgame, I pug 3 and 2 manned hard mode (MCHM), which took a lot of fails, but I had the core mechanics down from doing normal mode, then 5 man hard mode. And I still screwed up 2 man a lot. The community just had a really different attitude. The game also does a better job of teaching you to play with a kind of raider's mindset by mercilessly one shotting everyone in the party if you don't overwrite this debuff with that one at the right time, in the right place.

The last time I played Tera though, item level crept up so high you could solo MCHM in 90 seconds and ignore all mechanics. It was kinda sad to see because Shandra Manaya was a really fun boss in its day. Its funny looking back at the death montages. Is that even a thing in GW2?

Yes, but we call it dungeon bosses.Here's how difficult it was 7 years back:

Love it. Kind of just shows how pink glass eyed players are when talking about how GW2 is for casuals. Fractals with their instant death agony mechanics, due to lack of possible resistance, were even worse. No perfect dodges of all boss agony attacks? You die.

Dungeons were seriously hard in the beginning. I still dread that Arah path 4 and my 2 hour run with a disband at the end.

[Juan.6124]

@"Hannelore.8153" said:

That's every group though. Almost no one PUGs raids anymore, that was a 2017 thing when the game still had optimistic players. These days when you see a raid PUG on the LFG its people still expecting meta classes and builds,

Well yes, when the lfg says druid, people are not looking for a 3 signet berserker druid with sand lion, offhand dagger and beast mastery. We want the harrier druid with Grace of the Land, cc pets, spirits, spotter and axe/warhorn+staff because that's one of the most overpowered builds in pve. Longbow or offhand axe if needed.

Here's an thought for other veterans: Please stop defending things that drive new players away. Every time you say "dead game" its your responsibility, and the older the game gets the more important this becomes.

Here's a thought for you: Make your own group with your own rules. Problem solved. If people join that are not to your liking, kick them.

[A R W E N.6895]

I will still repeat myself, the moment you understand your class and that you understand what is going on with the boss, everything is not that hard. What is hard is having 10 people with the above mentioned knowledge. Hence, that is why I keep saying that having 10 man is a barrier to raids.

[Obtena.7952]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Not really.

More like getting 10 people together, and have each of them regard their playmate's skill level as 'acceptable'.

That's it ... that's why the smart people 'arrange' their play around good social networks and not PUG's.

[Tails.9372]

Raid like content is puggable in other games.Ikr, the endgame in PSO2 for example pretty much entirely consists of PuG raid / SM like content while the combat system is even more impacted by player skill than the "action combat" of this game (GW2 by comparison feels like as if the game puts an anchor on you) and you don't have any problem finding a group for these quests, at all.

The most noticeable difference here is that the main focus lies in the presentation while the content itself is incredibly easy, so much so that players who know what they're doing can effortlessly solo it and thats just the thing. Make content easy and rewarding and people are going to play it to the dissatisfaction of those seeking a challenge.