Jump to content
  • Sign Up

It’s been a year since the last raid wing has come out


Recommended Posts

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:I've answered your simple question, but you didn't bother to listen. I won't explain it again to someone that doesn't listen. But yeah, w/e you won. I admit defeat, I can't explain it to you. You've bested me.

You didn't answer my question, yet. It's not that you cannot explain it to me, because there is nothing to explain. But your admission of defeat does mean you finally are willing to see how content with difficulty tiers had less development than content without them. Better late than never.

Na, I'm not willing to see it that way, since it simply isn't true. But I do admit defeat, there's just no reasoning with you. Calling E-speccs OW only content was the final straw for me, after you've put words countless times into my words, just like you're doing now. It's truly a waste of time to discuss anything further with you.

Again, still not the timeframe for "only exclusive OW content" you mentioned at the start. SMs seem to be OW content for you. But w/e. I understand, everything you don't like is just OW content.

You should re-read that quote if you believe that. It's close to the end of the quote.

And you still didn't answer my question, yet you want me to answer. Another reason why it just isn't of value to discuss anything further.

Kay, there's actually only free content in GW2 after PoF, got it.

Wait... you dispute this? Which content released after PoF did we have to
buy
? And if you say anything like "gem store skins and outfits" (because I think you say those are content right?) I should remind you that we got plenty of those in Q4 2019, yet you ignored them and said the only "money maker was build templates".

And please spare me the doom and gloom. It's not about killing the game, it's about seeing a (a rather visible) drop in revenue and then proceeding to make direction changes in the quarter after it. And the director leaving silently during that same quarter. Do note that the amount of revenue the game lost in Q4 2019 is still less than the revenue the game ended up with (lost 4k, ended up with 11k). I'm not gonna say that OW will ever kill GW2, or that it's bad for the game, it's the most widely known and played part of the game. I simply stated in my original post the huge time frames that the rest of the content in the game spent completely neglected by the developers and -ESPECIALLY- in Q4 2019 (and most of Q3 2019). The drop might've been for completely different reasons, but I can speculate given what we have that the neglect did play a role, otherwise, if everything was going well content-wise, they wouldn't have such a road map.

But we'll know when we get the next road map.

LS isn't actually free content, it is just given out for free when it releases, if you haven't forgotten. Gemstore skins are obviously not free content.

Doom and gloom is just repeating what Cyninja said. All "hardcore" raiders left. There's no revenue to gain anymore, apparently. And he told me the game will not be around for long anymore, I have to take him by his word. He's an experienced raider after all that knows everything about raid decline and game decline. There's just no niche content left, only OW content.

This will also be my last response to you, I just can't argue with someone that puts words into my mouth and thinks E-Specc are OW only content. Sorry, but that's just too much for me to handle. I've never seen anyone else make a similiar claim, many people seem to enjoy E-speccs in every gamemode, not only OW (Aside from Balance problems with new mechanics). E-speccs are a big expansion seller because you can use them in every gamemode and because they are part of every gamemode.

So again, I don't think we can see eye to eye here, our viewpoints are just too different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 163
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

@"Raknar.4735" said:Doom and gloom is just repeating what Cyninja said. All "hardcore" raiders left. There's no revenue to gain anymore, apparently. And he told me the game will not be around for long anymore, I have to take him by his word. He's an experienced raider after all that knows everything about raid decline and game decline. There's just no niche content left, only OW content.

I'm not the person who rejoices with glee and celebrates that other players are deprived of the content which they enjoy. Mind you content which already saw a very tiny fraction of development resources. It takes a special kind of person to celebrate such things. Also yes, I stand by what I said: the game's revenue suffers because players who enjoy niche content are neglected and have been neglected for years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:Doom and gloom is just repeating what Cyninja said. All "hardcore" raiders left. There's no revenue to gain anymore, apparently. And he told me the game will not be around for long anymore, I have to take him by his word. He's an experienced raider after all that knows everything about raid decline and game decline. There's just no niche content left, only OW content.

I'm not the person who rejoices with glee and celebrates that other players are deprived of the content which they enjoy. Mind you content which already saw a very tiny fraction of development resources. It takes a special kind of person to celebrate such things. Also yes, I stand by what I said: the game's revenue suffers because players who enjoy niche content are neglected and have been neglected for years.

Lol! I would say you are completely off on all of those statements!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Opopanax.1803 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:Doom and gloom is just repeating what Cyninja said. All "hardcore" raiders left. There's no revenue to gain anymore, apparently. And he told me the game will not be around for long anymore, I have to take him by his word. He's an experienced raider after all that knows everything about raid decline and game decline. There's just no niche content left, only OW content.

I'm not the person who rejoices with glee and celebrates that other players are deprived of the content which they enjoy. Mind you content which already saw a very tiny fraction of development resources. It takes a special kind of person to celebrate such things. Also yes, I stand by what I said: the game's revenue suffers because players who enjoy niche content are neglected and have been neglected for years.

Lol! I would say you are completely off on all of those statements!

All of them? Care to point out which and how?

Minimal resources are being used on content unrelated to story and open world things? That's pretty much a given at the very least for instanced pve content since we actually know how big that teams wa. We also know how much content was released. As far as pvp and wvw, yeah the content for those modes speaks for its self.

Raknar gloating? Just read this thread.

Hardcore players spending money on the game? I'd argue that more invested players are more likely to spend more money on something. That does not mean players who do not play niche content can't be invested. It simply means that players playing niche content could be more invested.

Now add all of that together and you get:

  • minimum amount of resources spent
  • to satisfy a niche part of the game
  • saturated with some of the most invested players
  • all of which now has been discontinued

I'd say that it is be very reasonable that revenue has suffered. You are free to your own interpretation though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Cyninja.2954 said:Raknar gloating? Just read this thread.

My posts are directed at those that destroyed their own content by keeping people away from said content. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.I don't celebrate it. In fact, I pity the raiders that did welcome a change, but they got brexited by the ones that didn't want change. And that is pretty unfair to those raiders.

The person I've seen gloating has been you about your raid experience and training. But I guess it takes one to know one.

Seems you think you know me better. Not the first time either you judged me wrongly. "Extrapolate" all you want, but you've been wrong 3/3 times about me each time we've met on the forums.

Edit: I've quickly run overflown some old posts, and adding things like this in retrospect is petty,

@Cyninja.2954 said:If any one has kept you from this contnet, it was hardly me. Maybe someone else, maybe you yourself. I wouldn't know, I wasn't there. All I can say is: if you were this inexperienced yet this vocal in one of my training runs, yes I would most certainly have removed you. There is only so much clueless bs one can take and it's harmful to other players in a training. But given I have never raided with you, I have no idea why others might not have wanted you around. Not my issue.

tells me enough about your person to never consider playing with you. You're quickly to judge other players and implied others didn't want me, when you know nothing about me. I had a static and we were doing raids just fine, I just got bored and stopped doing raids.I pity anyone that has to put up with you. Neither my group, nor I could endure your for a long time. Someone that judges others without any information.So good job, you're precisely the reason why some might not even want to try out raids.

Anyways, this is my last post on this thread. Can't say I've enjoyed interacting with you, again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Cyninja.2954" said:

Strikes see the bare minimum of development resources. They are mostly reused assets from story content. The fact you assume that there was even remotely enough resources in the instanced content budget and fictitiously believe easy mode raids could ever have been developed next to regular raids is humoring and sad. Strikes are just as good at getting new players into raiding as easy mode raids would have been: not at all.

One thing strikes have shown clearly is:

  • there are no resources for multiple difficulties of "challenging" instanced content. Even strikes could have been made with varying difficulties, given how there are nearly no instant death mechanics, yet even that is not being done.
  • there is no challenging instanced content development next to strikes, besides maybe that one fractal that we might see this year

To pretend as though creating easy mode raids, while the evidence is very clear on how much resources are being spent on this type of content, could ever have been a thing without taking a team or part of a team from other content, mostly open world, is plain delusional.

Ironically the developers behind raid wings 4, 5, 6 and 7 seem to have thought differently. After all they created 2 different difficulty levels for every boss encounter in these wings, the normal version and the challenge mode. How they got the idea in their heads that they certainly have the time to do that I will never understand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Raknar.4735 said:The person I've seen gloating has been you about your raid experience and training. But I guess it takes one to know one.

It's called giving context as to where ones experience comes from. If me having experience with this content and training new players and pointing this out, as to give credence to my opinion, is gloating, sure I was gloating.

Context and experience is also why I kept recommending you actually play the content you are giving advice on. As it stands right now, you have absolutely no clue how or what it's like as a new players getting into raids, by your own admission. Seems strange to me to give advice and criticize others while lacking that experience.

@Katary.7096 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:

Strikes see the bare minimum of development resources. They are mostly reused assets from story content. The fact you assume that there was even remotely enough resources in the instanced content budget and fictitiously believe easy mode raids could ever have been developed next to regular raids is humoring and sad. Strikes are just as good at getting new players into raiding as easy mode raids would have been: not at all.

One thing strikes have shown clearly is:
  • there are no resources for multiple difficulties of "challenging" instanced content. Even strikes could have been made with varying difficulties, given how there are nearly no instant death mechanics, yet even that is not being done.
  • there is no challenging instanced content development next to strikes, besides maybe that one fractal that we might see this year

To pretend as though creating easy mode raids, while the evidence is very clear on how much resources are being spent on this type of content, could ever have been a thing without taking a team or part of a team from other content, mostly open world, is plain delusional.

Ironically the developers behind raid wings 4, 5, 6 and 7 seem to have thought differently. After all they created 2 different difficulty levels for every boss encounter in these wings, the normal version and the challenge mode. How they got the idea in their heads that they certainly have the time to do that I will never understand.

Google the release dates of raids starting with wing 4.

What you will find is that the release cadence slowed to 1 wing per year, increasing from 1 per 3/4 year.

It's a perfect example of how additional difficulty has slowed content. Not only that, but adding a challenge mode with 1-time additional rewards, which players can re-run for fun, or completely ingore, hardly splits the community.

Unlike say an easy mode which would see a split of new raiders training into a potentially ineffective "easy mode" (every one can have their own opinion of how effective this would have been, I have explained why I do not believe this to be useful) and regular mode trainig. That can not be disputed.

I personally would have gladly accepted no challenge modes in raids if it had meant a faster release cycle for the content.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:I've answered your simple question, but you didn't bother to listen. I won't explain it again to someone that doesn't listen. But yeah, w/e you won. I admit defeat, I can't explain it to you. You've bested me.

You didn't answer my question, yet. It's not that you cannot explain it to me, because there is nothing to explain. But your admission of defeat does mean you finally are willing to see how content with difficulty tiers had less development than content without them. Better late than never.

Na, I'm not willing to see it that way, since it simply isn't true.

You got me confused here. According to this page: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Releasethe last Raid (content without difficulty tiers) was released around June 2019the last Fractal (content with difficulty tiers) was released around January 2019What exactly isn't true? Content WITH difficulty tiers has been abandoned and has less releases than content WITHOUT them. I'm not sure how that "isn't true" because we do have the release schedule.

And you still didn't answer my question, yet you want me to answer.

The timeframe is in the part you quoted, you can do the math in months but here I will help, from my first ever post in this thread:

Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, > given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.So it's not only Raids that are suffering, it's almost everything, but last few releases they started turning around.

From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content, and the Strikes, which I added in my original quote SEPARATELY for a reason, which you always seemed to remove from your own quotes to suit your agenda.

Edit:

August 2019 Auric Span + Mist Lord Weps, non OW content.September had 2019 had a SM, non OW content.October 2019 Haloween, non OW content. FestivalOctober 2019 Build templatesNobember 2019 three new SMs, non OW content

I include story content into OW, otherwise we got non-OW content with every episode release (since it includes story)it's really hard discussing time frames of OW content when you call Shiverpeak Pass non OW content, while that SM is nothing more than a solo story instanceAlso calling Halloween non OW content as well (what's up with that?), and calling Build Templates "content".November didn't have 3 SMs, it had 2 because Boneskinner was released in December.But even then, I addressed Strike Missions ALREADY

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:I've answered your simple question, but you didn't bother to listen. I won't explain it again to someone that doesn't listen. But yeah, w/e you won. I admit defeat, I can't explain it to you. You've bested me.

You didn't answer my question, yet. It's not that you cannot explain it to me, because there is nothing to explain. But your admission of defeat does mean you finally are willing to see how content with difficulty tiers had less development than content without them. Better late than never.

Na, I'm not willing to see it that way, since it simply isn't true.

You got me confused here. According to this page:
the last Raid (content without difficulty tiers) was released around June 2019the last Fractal (content with difficulty tiers) was released around January 2019What exactly isn't true? Content WITH difficulty tiers has been abandoned and has less releases than content WITHOUT them. I'm not sure how that "isn't true" because we do have the release schedule.

And you still didn't answer my question, yet you want me to answer.

The timeframe is in the part you quoted, you can do the math in months but here I will help, from my first ever post in this thread:

Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, > given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.So it's not only Raids that are suffering, it's almost everything, but last few releases they started turning around.

From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content, and the Strikes, which I added in my original quote SEPARATELY for a reason, which you always seemed to remove from your own quotes to suit your agenda.

From what I have seen in this thread anything that aint open world mean to raknar that we got instance content for the niche audience.We should be happy for all the strike, story missions aswell since they are 1-10 man content aka not open world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Linken.6345 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:I've answered your simple question, but you didn't bother to listen. I won't explain it again to someone that doesn't listen. But yeah, w/e you won. I admit defeat, I can't explain it to you. You've bested me.

You didn't answer my question, yet. It's not that you cannot explain it to me, because there is nothing to explain. But your admission of defeat does mean you finally are willing to see how content with difficulty tiers had less development than content without them. Better late than never.

Na, I'm not willing to see it that way, since it simply isn't true.

You got me confused here. According to this page:
the last Raid (content without difficulty tiers) was released around June 2019the last Fractal (content with difficulty tiers) was released around January 2019What exactly isn't true? Content WITH difficulty tiers has been abandoned and has less releases than content WITHOUT them. I'm not sure how that "isn't true" because we do have the release schedule.

And you still didn't answer my question, yet you want me to answer.

The timeframe is in the part you quoted, you can do the math in months but here I will help, from my first ever post in this thread:

Well they hadn't done anything for sPVP from August 2019 to February 2020, 6 months, funny how the previous update regarding sPVP was in November 2018, 9 months, > given that on August 2019 we got a single 2v2 map (and some new weapon skins), it's almost like 15 months so Raids have some time until they reach that point.Between March 2019 and February 2020 WVW got nothing, 11 months or so. And in those two months we got the Warclaw and then a Warclaw skin and a new armor set.The last Fractal was released on January 2019, that's 17 months without a fractal.So it's not only Raids that are suffering, it's almost everything, but last few releases they started turning around.

From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content, and the Strikes, which I added in my original quote SEPARATELY for a reason, which you always seemed to remove from your own quotes to suit your agenda.

From what I have seen in this thread anything that aint open world mean to raknar that we got instance content for the niche audience.We should be happy for all the strike, story missions aswell since they are 1-10 man content aka not open world.

I should've said "we only got OW and story content" instead of "only OW content" because Strike Missions are similar to Story content, if not even less challenging. I doubt Raknar would get that either

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Raknar.4735" said:The massive revenue drops due the focus on systems like build templates targeted at raiders and people regularly changing builds didn't really help. The majority doesn't really buy into those systems. After all, there wasn't anything else to get revenue from, aside from some gemshop skins. Buying build templates is not something the majority will do. And since the Open World content is free, there's nothing to buy for the average player.

So yeah, I hope they change their direction, but the currently planned legendary template system tells me otherwise. It will probably be another blunder, since the people that actually buy into that system are few.

If you really think Anet's "Templates" were targeted at Raiders/high game investment Hardcore crossgame mode players, it probably exposes how clueless you are about the content and it's community more than anything else you've said in this Thread.Idk if I met a single hardcore player who is really satisfied with this system and most I know can tolerate it so little (and what it stands for) that they refuse to buy into it completely.

It was a hardcore system aimed in design at casual players exclusively, while actually being a pretty big slap in the face to hardcore players and the functionality they require (and were used to), that's why it failed - hardly because it was aimed at a "niche" hardcore audience, but like everything else over the last year+, wasn't.

Expecting players to pay 40€/$ + per character just to get so few slots (storing just a few bits each) it's not even enough to fill all build variants some professions have in a Raid full clear, let alone Fractal build variants, PvP Builds, WvW builds and OW builds etc., clearly the only people who benefitted from this addition over ARC was the casual audience - yet they did not have any motivation to buy any more than the given baseline.

So rather than gaining anything over the last year +, be it content, new features, updated rewards, anything, Hardcore players actually lost something in that time, that being a properly working and a catering to hardcore needs Template system in ARC.

If you give players no content, no features, nothing for over a year, and instead take away functionality to replace it by an overly aggressive monetization scheme which only caters to casual players who in turn have no need to invest in it, ofc revenue is going to start plummeting as hardcore players leave and casuals don't have anything to buy.

Obviously the much accessible OW content and catering only to casual players did not do very well to carry the game looking at the revenue from when that's all that was available.And sure, while it's maybe played by the majority, a lot of those players are just playing LW as "waiting lobby for proper content" because that's all that is on offer when many of them would much rather mostly just play their niche(s) of other, more engaging hardcore, content, from Fractals to Raids to PvP to WvW, etc., if there just was anything new an exciting to play there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"maddoctor.2738" said:The massive revenue drops were due to the lack of varied content. If for 12-14 months releasing exclusively open world content was working and was successful, why the sudden change at the start of 2020, and why did the director that focused on open world exclusively left the company silently. Probably because his latest direction wasn't working. (I know he's been director for a long time)Actually, he left around the time of IBS announcement (by the time any news of his leaving surfaced, he was already gone for a few months), so long before Anet could even be sure about any consequences of that development model. As such, i think it was mostly coincidental, and more tied to the general trend of developers leaving the company at that time.If his leaving had been in any way connected to the changes of design direction, we would have heard about expansion being in development at least 4-5 months earlier than we actually did.

Besides, i still disagree with you that it is the "OW focus" that caused the revenue loss. It was the feeling (whether justiffied or not) of the game winding down towards maintenance mode. Mere expansion announcement had done much more for the game than releasing a fractal/raid wing or two would have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Astralporing.1957" said:It was the feeling (whether justiffied or not) of the game winding down towards maintenance mode.

Well do you think that someone would "feel" that the game is winding down towards maintenance mode if content they are playing received constant updates? Unfortunately most of the game's aspects have been neglected for a rather long time, increasing the feeling of going into maintenance mode.

Mere expansion announcement had done much more for the game than releasing a fractal/raid wing or two would have.

At the point the expansion announcement happened? Probably. But the road map also helped because it showed the developers are no longer neglecting most of the parts that compose this game. If a similar road map (with content to back it up obviously) was released earlier, it would also help stop the feeling of going into maintenance mode. If the Icebrood Saga announcement contained information/confirmation about all the aspects of the game then it wouldn't feel like Anet is abandoning everything. But the Icebrood Saga announcement was mostly "you'll get some new maps and new living world story" and some completely vague promises about anything else.

If his leaving had been in any way connected to the changes of design direction, we would have heard about expansion being in development at least 4-5 months earlier than we actually did.

If I recall in the Icebrood Saga announcement they DID say that the entire company was working on it, so no expansion was in the works, I guess the backlash over the announcement is what led to the expansion concept art being released.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:The person I've seen gloating has been you about your raid experience and training. But I guess it takes one to know one.

It's called giving context as to where ones experience comes from. If me having experience with this content and training new players and pointing this out, as to give credence to my opinion, is gloating, sure I was gloating.

Context and experience is also why I kept recommending you actually play the content you are giving advice on. As it stands right now, you have absolutely no clue how or what it's like as a new players getting into raids, by your own admission. Seems strange to me to give advice and criticize others while lacking that experience.

I couldn't hold my promise to not engage again.

This wasn't about why raiders left the gamemode, this was about why raids didn't attract more people. Your context and experience don't matter there, since you're only seeing why raiders are leaving, not why your so called "sideliners" aren't playing the content.

New players that go raiding are already part of the raiding community. Also, what own admission? I've raided before, determined they aren't fun in their current state, and stopped playing them. The problem is that people don't even START with raids. If you can't see that, sure, keep on to that "experience" shield, that doesn't actually help, when the problem is to get "sideliners" into the gamemode. Your experience only helps when people are already starting with raids, or currently raiding, not for bringing in new people that didn't decide to raid yet.

So yeah Context matters, but you're using the wrong context. Your position is completely wrong and you have no clue how people that don't currently raid feel about raids. You're just arguing from the perspective of someone that is already raiding, instead of asking why people don't start raiding, yet you try your hardest to snuff out people's suggestions, when their goal is to make raiding attractive to people that haven't been to raids yet.

So my suggestion to you: try to listen to players when they give suggestions, instead of holding on to your pride of being an experienced raider.

At least Anet is trying that with Strike Missions, trying to get people that normally don't raid into raids, but you don't seem to get that.

@"maddoctor.2738"From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content. Sure.Warclaw mount is not content for you, I get it.We also only got 1 LS release there.January had Siren's reef,June had Ahdashim.

So there was a 4 months gap February to May, if you ignore the addition of the Warclaw which changed WvW drastically. Hardly any of the 1+ years I've heard about.4 months, a gap that we also saw for LS in the past.

Completely ignoring that Strike Missions are their own gamemode and calling them "story" content is just like calling E-speccs only OW content.Sorry, but it's like I said before, your definition of what is OW and story content is arbitrary. SMs are just as much instanced content as dungeons, fractals and raids.

@Asum.4960If you really think the target of build templates were casual players, it exposes how clueless you are about casual players and what they buy.The system was supposed to replace Arc, that's why Delta had to stop developing Arc. I've not seen many casual players use Arc.How bad the system is doesn't actually change who the target audience was.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Raknar.4735" said:Warclaw mount is not content for you, I get it.

The Warclaw was added in March 2019, which is after June 2019 so not sure why you bring that up.

We also only got 1 LS release there.

Where? You've confused the scope and time frame now.

January had Siren's reef,June had Ahdashim.

Yes, both in 2019.

Completely ignoring that Strike Missions are their own gamemode

They are their own game mode. Already explained that part multiple times.

and calling them "story" content

Shiverpeak Pass "strike mission" is story content. Solo friendly experience. Same with the latest two Strike Missions. Fraenir is doable solo, although it might take some extra work. The Kodan, Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag are the only true group content in Strike Missions so far.

is just like calling E-speccs only OW content.

quote for reference:

Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP?

As far as content goes, E-Specs are acquired and trained in the OW (and WVW) and that's it. I wonder how to unlock E-Specs in a Fractal, if you can point me there.

Sorry, but it's like I said before, your definition of what is OW and story content is arbitrary.

Your is too. So you should respond to what's objective instead of bringing your own bias in the discussion. An opinion versus an opinion won't really lead anywhere. But you do have objective questions to answer, which you ignored.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Cyninja.2954 said:My point is: there were complaints about the story requiring instanced content even before players tried the content.The story always requires you to play instanced content, that by itself has never been a complaint.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Most did not even know Forging Steel could be soloed or scaled down to 1 player.Which still requires players to do the mechanics so it doesn't really matter for the average casual player.

@Cyninja.2954 said:The aversion to have to group was huge.Of course it was, instanced group content has always had increased difficulty compared to the average OW / story content so it amounted enough of a stigma that every other reaction would have actually been rather suprising.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Pair that with the huge distaste with having to do "easy" instanced content for meta rewards, and it paints a very clear picture. No?Yeah, that people actually want to play easy content and not this "easy" content they get fed in SM, T1 Fractals and FS. If content being instanced was a problem then we would be seeing complains about the main story being inaccesible because of it which just isn't a thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Tails.9372" said:If content being instanced was a problem then we would be seeing complains about the main story being inaccesible because of it which just isn't a thing.

Do you include expansions and LS story instances being "inaccessible"? Because we've had loads upon loads of complaints about Mordremoth, Caudecus, Balthazar, the Eater of Souls, Scruffy 2.0 and so on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Tails.9372" said:If content being instanced was a problem then we would be seeing complains about the main story being inaccesible because of it which just isn't a thing.

Do you include expansions and LS story instances being "inaccessible"? Because we've had loads upon loads of complaints about Mordremoth, Caudecus, Balthazar, the Eater of Souls, Scruffy 2.0 and so on.Which were based on what? Their difficulty or the sheer fact that the content was instanced? Cause every time I remember people complain about the accessibility of story content it was always based on the former.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:Warclaw mount is not content for you, I get it.

The Warclaw was added in March 2019, which is after June 2019 so not sure why you bring that up.

Your own timeframe you posted "From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content"

We also only got 1 LS release there.

Where? You've confused the scope and time frame now.

Your own timeframe you posted "From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content"So the War Eternal release.

January had Siren's reef,June had Ahdashim.

Yes, both in 2019.

Yes.

Completely ignoring that Strike Missions are their own gamemode

They are their own game mode. Already explained that part multiple times.

Great that we can agree.

and calling them "story" content

Shiverpeak Pass "strike mission" is story content. Solo friendly experience. Same with the latest two Strike Missions. Fraenir is doable solo, although it might take some extra work. The Kodan, Boneskinner and Whisper of Jormag are the only true group content in Strike Missions so far.

No, it is Strike mission content. How easy it is doesn't matter, it is still Strike Mission content, and therefore group content.You're just adding arbitrary definitions of what does and what doesn't count, but it still won't change that Shiverpeak Pass is a Strike Mission.

is just like calling E-speccs only OW content.

quote for reference:

Mounts are OW content, E-specs are also OW content, are they acquired inside Fractals, Raids or PVP?

As far as content goes, E-Specs are acquired and trained in the OW (and WVW) and that's it. I wonder how to unlock E-Specs in a Fractal, if you can point me there.

Yep, you're just saying it is OW/WvW content because of the place where you unlock it, not where you can actually actively use it, just to suit your agenda.Like I've said before, no reason to discuss this further.

Sorry, but it's like I said before, your definition of what is OW and story content is arbitrary.

Your is too. So you should respond to what's objective instead of bringing your own bias in the discussion. An opinion versus an opinion won't really lead anywhere. But you do have objective questions to answer, which you ignored.

Easy, just use Anets definition of what is OW and Story content. They even see Festivals as Festivals, instead of something else.

As to your other question: Fractals have been getting more attention than raids, they even have a future if we believe Anet. A whole new quality tier was even introduced just for them.My guess as to why we haven't had a fractal for a long time? The response to Siren's Reef from the community. Anet also acknowledged they want to spend more focus and attention on fractals.Andrew Gray also never mentioned fractals have a small audience, that was something he only mentioned for raids. So maybe the difficulty tiers seem to work to create an audience for that type of content? It doesn't seem Fractal negligence was due to population size, whereas raids definately have a population problem, like Andew mentioned, and why they need a bridge like Strike Missions.He even mentions a big gap between raids and other endgame content. Fractals don't seem to have that gap, thanks to the tiered system.Still, I think more people would play fractals if the whole agony system wouldn't exist, unrelated to that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Raknar.4735" said:Your own timeframe you posted "From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content"

The time frame I gave was June 2019 to February 2020. Warclaw was released on March 2019 which is before June 2019... not sure what's going on here. Why are you going backwards?

Your own timeframe you posted "From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content"

Same here...

.How easy it is doesn't matter, it is still Strike Mission content, and therefore group content.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strike_Mission

Strike Missions are 1-10 player squad-based PvE instancesNotice the number 1 there. Anet's definition says that Strike Missions are for 1 to 10 players, therefore those made for 1 person are not essentially "group content". Saying that Strike Missions are group content contradicts Anet's definition. Not sure why you do this but you do you.

Yep, you're just saying it is OW/WvW content because of the place where you unlock it, not where you can actually actively use it, just to suit your agenda.

You and I have a different opinion of what content is and I assume to you everything a developer creates is "content". I don't, only what I can actively play I consider it content. Skins, outfits, even MOUNTS and E-SPECS are not actual content, you don't "play" them, you "use" them. Which leaves us with their acquisition method to classify them. Just like you say I'm using my definition to suit my agenda, you are using yours to push yours. There isn't much to be said on that subject, since we simply disagree on the definition of what "content" is.

Easy, just use Anets definition of what is OW and Story content. They even see Festivals as Festivals, instead of something else.

You mean this one: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Open_world

An open world, also known as a persistent world, is a game world that continues to exist and change even after a user has exited it, and is open to all players.Isn't that Anet's definition of Open World? So in that case everything that is not "persistent" (so, instanced) is not open world. Content that is persistent is Open World. So I guess WVW is also Open World by the official definition. I learned something new.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Tails.9372 said:

@Tails.9372 said:If content being instanced was a problem then we would be seeing complains about the main story being inaccesible because of it which just isn't a thing.

Do you include expansions and LS story instances being "inaccessible"? Because we've had loads upon loads of complaints about Mordremoth, Caudecus, Balthazar, the Eater of Souls, Scruffy 2.0 and so on.Which were based on what? Their difficulty or the sheer fact that the content was instanced? Cause every time I remember people complain about the accessibility of story content it was always based on the former.

If the fights with Mordremoth or Balthazar weren't instanced would we see complaints about their difficulty? The difficulty alone isn't enough to cause complaints. Unless that difficulty is combined with the fight being instanced. If Scruffy 2.0 was a world boss you could simply auto attack him to death, while 12 other players kill it with proper skill usage. This is how the Open World works. And on the other hand, put a Legendary Wyvern Matriarch from Verdant Brink inside a story instance and prepare the forums for complaints. Leave it outside and there are no complaints.

So to answer your question, complaints for content are based on both difficulty AND being instanced simultaneously, remove either part of the equation and you get very little complaints (unless it's about break bars).

But I get your point, there are very few complaints on content just for it being instanced, the most recent one the complaints about the Whisper in the Dark meta requiring Strike Missions for completion. In the same threads on that subject you'll find quite a lot of players saying that "I won't do this, regardless of how easy it is, just because it's a Strike Mission" so there is precedent of having complaints for the simple fact that some content was instanced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Raknar.4735 said:@"Asum.4960"If you really think the target of build templates were casual players, it exposes how clueless you are about casual players and what they buy.The system was supposed to replace Arc, that's why Delta had to stop developing Arc. I've not seen many casual players use Arc.How bad the system is doesn't actually change who the target audience was.

It does change your narrative though that catering to Raiders clearly isn't worthwhile -> see missing revenue from "Templates", when the only people who benefit from the system are casual single game mode players (who don't need to buy any more), while hardcore players and especially Raiders got screwed hard by the system.

What a system is "supposed" to do doesn't matter if the actual design goes completely counter to that, and I never said casuals bought into the system either, quite the opposite, just that they were the only ones catered to with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:Your own timeframe you posted "From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content"

The time frame I gave was June 2019 to February 2020. Warclaw was released on March 2019 which is before June 2019... not sure what's going on here. Why are you going backwards?

Finally the Timeframe. June 2019 to February 2020. 8 months, let's see what I find there. I still see Festivals, PvP (Auric Span), Strike Missions. Tough luck, those aren't OW content or story content.

Also you posted that timeframe for the first time (even though it still contains non OW content), your old timeframe (which included the WvW mount release) in your post is still there. Why are you pretending you said something different? Own up to your mistakes, you clearly said

From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content, and the Strikes, which I added in my original quote SEPARATELY for a reason, which you always seemed to remove from your own quotes to suit your agenda.

Your own timeframe you posted "From June 2019 to February 2019 we got only OW content"

Same here...

Same here...

.How easy it is doesn't matter, it is still Strike Mission content, and therefore group content.

Strike Missions are 1-10 player squad-based PvE instancesNotice the number 1 there. Anet's definition says that Strike Missions are for 1 to 10 players, therefore those made for 1 person are not essentially "group content". Saying that Strike Missions are group content contradicts Anet's definition. Not sure why you do this but you do you.

You know the text in the wiki is player made and not official, don't you? They still call Forging Steel a Strike Mission, even though Anet never called it that, at least they mention it under Notes.

But you can just look at the same link you posted, they mention the official description"Tackle these challenging boss encounters in a group of up to ten players, either as a pre-formed squad or in a public mode anyone can join."Notice the "in a group of up to ten players"? GROUP.

Yep, you're just saying it is OW/WvW content because of the place where you unlock it, not where you can actually actively use it, just to suit your agenda.

You and I have a different opinion of what content is and I assume to you everything a developer creates is "content". I don't, only what I can actively play I consider it content. Skins, outfits, even MOUNTS and E-SPECS are not actual content, you don't "play" them, you "use" them. Which leaves us with their acquisition method to classify them. Just like you say I'm using my definition to suit my agenda, you are using yours to push yours. There isn't much to be said on that subject, since we simply disagree on the definition of what "content" is.

Pretty much, we just disagree here. Like I said, any further discussion here is meaningless.

Easy, just use Anets definition of what is OW and Story content. They even see Festivals as Festivals, instead of something else.

You mean this one:

An open world, also known as a persistent world, is a game world that continues to exist and change even after a user has exited it, and is open to all players.Isn't that Anet's definition of Open World? So in that case everything that is not "persistent" (so, instanced) is not open world. Content that is persistent is Open World. So I guess WVW is also Open World by the official definition. I learned something new.

That's the player wiki again. But if you want to use that definition, yes WvW has a persistent world, or an open world in technical terms.The aerodrome would also be considered an open world map.That also means that story content isn't technically open world content, since it doesn't happen in a persistent world, the same as Strike Missions, every Festival Arena, things like celestial challenge, some adventures etc.It's always nice to learn something new, isn't it?

WvW isn't however part of the "Living World", Arenanet's official term for updates related to episodes. Those come with a variety of content, which include the new map as its open world content.

When I mention OW-content, I've always been referring to the open world content of the non-competitive modes.So Core Tyria, HoT, PoF, LS (and VotP, though we only have a Hub map).

If you can come up with a term that only relates to the open world content of non-competitive modes, feel free to share it, but even then things like the Aerodrome would count towards it, even though it is closely tied to raids, as a hub.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Asum.4960 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:@Asum.4960If you really think the target of build templates were casual players, it exposes how clueless you are about casual players and what they buy.The system was supposed to replace Arc, that's why Delta had to stop developing Arc. I've not seen many casual players use Arc.How bad the system is doesn't actually change who the target audience was.

It does change your narrative though that catering to Raiders clearly isn't worthwhile -> see missing revenue from "Templates", when the only people who benefit from the system are casual single game mode players (who don't need to buy any more), while hardcore players and especially Raiders got screwed hard by the system.

What a system is "supposed" to do doesn't matter if the actual design goes completely counter to that, and I never said casuals bought into the system either, quite the opposite, just that they were the only ones catered to with it.

Cater: provide with what is needed or required.Did casuals need or require templates? No.Did raiders need or require them? Given that many used Arc, I guess they did.

Did Anet design the templates to sell them? I guess, that would be logical, unless they intentionally created a shit system.Who are the people that would buy templates? The casuals that don't really care about builds, or the ones that already used a 3rd party addon to get that functionality?

The system was designed with people that change builds often in mind.That casual players can now use the system, therefore "benefiting" because they didn't use Arc before, so they effectively gained a functionality, doesn't change the target group of build templates.

That the system was designed badly and therefore did badly revenue wise enforces my narrative, since the system only catered to the target group. There's no revenue to gain from people that don't care about the product, which are the people that don't change builds regularly.

Non-target group --> didn't buy them because they didn't need them, gained a benefit of extra equipment template and build bank + 2 build templates that used to be locked to content

Target group -> didn't buy the system because it is shit.

End result: Currently a wasted system. Anet is trying again with the legendary armoury. Maybe there to salvage that trainwreck of a system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...