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Li / Killproof for Strikes are a Problem


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@TwinFrozr.6214 said:

@Ecoxiss.1079 said:I think that looking for Killproofs for Strikes is a Problem and shouldnt be allowed by Arenanet. They are designed to inspire new players and casuals to start raiding but 80% of the LFG Groups have started to do this Killproof Nonsense in Strikes too. This is exactly why Raids arent much played and wont get new stuff added. Its just spliting the community further.Yes, exactly. And this is also why raid/fractal sales should be forbidden.

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content.

Many players are not able to complete content because nobody's even willing to let them try. Like the job where you need 30 years experience to qualify for tutorial. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

Their are training raids however.I'm well aware. In fact, that's my only raid experience after 8,000 hours of total gameplay. And even in "training", people whine about damage, healing, equipment, skills, LI and god knows. Have friends myself who don't even try raids because of its truly awful atmosphere.

That really just depends on the guild and group though. And doesn't it make sense that during a training you would tell the people who underperformed that they do?

Where were the complains about li in trainings, I ve never heard about that before.

If they underperform to a level where content is not completable, absolutely. Sure, my raid experience is limited, but my fractal level is around 90, and I have already done quite some pug strikes. Never had a problem or anyone complaining. I get the impression that this is more about kittenheadry than actual performance issues - it's a game, for heaven's sake.

Li problem happened when we had to pug others to fill up the training group. They also stalked my ≈8,000 dps and whined about it.

Honestly I'll have to disagree about the being able to complete part. Because the point of a training is improving so not getting told what someone can improve on shouldn't be frowned upon.

It's important how this gets communicated though.

Or do you really think their would suddenly be no requirements if sell groups where abolished?Do you really think raiders will help, if they're rewarded by avoiding to?

Everything isn't just black and white, but it's a good compromise.

Edit: Shared achievements could also be a solution. Whenever you help someone who happen not to have certain raid achievements, the commander/members of the squad also get points for helping. As the toxic community have mainstreamized to "hate" achieving, they won't care (or, they will care and start behaving), and the helpful/nice part will get rewarded for good deeds. In such a situation, it should totally be against ToS to sell runs as a side effect.

The things is, their are not enough raidsellers to make this a mayor contributor to the amount of raid training. (ignoring that quite a few sellers actually teach).

The bigger problem that would happen is discontent because now people will actually have to learn things they don't want to.

Edit: how do your friends know about the atmosphere if theyve never tried it?You may be right on that one, I haven't looked for the amount of sellers in a while. Doesn't change the point, though: there are still raiders preferring to exploit others' weaknesses for a profit.

Or their are people making gold based on skill and the desinterest of some people to do some content.

Do you have a problem with mesmers asking gold for jp ports?

Isn't this what's happening already, in an extreme manner? One has to get full ascended armor, weapons and trinkets, potentially for hundreds of golds, to make a meta they don't even want to play. Whenever meta changes, hundreds of golds may to be spent again to change it. This to even get into training, as ascended is a requirement nowadays. And a lot of whatever-role-you-have-training, to satisfy some kittenhead who think they have the right to judge who is welcome to play their own game.

We'll last I checked full ascended was not a req for raid training.

Secondly, the right to choose who you play with works in all directions. And nobody is blocking access to any part of the game. (you can make your own groups for example)

The friends who don't join raids are well aware of the community climate in WvW, PvP and other competitive stuff. Just looking at LFG titles is enough after that.

OK so they let confirmation and selection bias create their perception of a community they haven't met.

Does that seem reasonable to you?

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@"TwinFrozr.6214" said:You may be right on that one, I haven't looked for the amount of sellers in a while. Doesn't change the point, though: there are still raiders preferring to exploit others' >weaknesses for a profit.

AHAHAHA you never sold any raids nor talked to anyone doing so or anyone buying and you are now going to the point that raid sellers just exploit the poor poor people? how did you even get to that conclusion? how can anyone be so delusional.

most regular customers back then simply did not have the time to get their own shit rolling but they had the money to pay for it. or simply did not want to raid but wanted the rewards. one of them even said the best thing about it is not even the rewards, he liked to watch us and how nicely the mechanics got executed by the low man team.

another big part was just casuals which never intended to raid nor do anything with the single LI they got, they just wanted to complete all account masterys.when a single raidboss is between 120 - 500g any normal person does not just buy 10 raids so they have LI. they do not even have the money to do so.

but yeah, all those bad bad raid sellers which just exploit the poor people. those toxic dudes.

some people really try hard to paint people so it fits into how they see the world. open your eyes a bit and get more experience, maybe you will see the world from a different angle.if you would have said that sentence to any of our customers ("we just exploit their weakness") they would have either slapped or laughed at your face. how can you even come up with something like that. holy fuck.

but yeah, internet providers just offering a service probably also just exploit your weakness. right....right?... /s

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I don't agree with the op. Requirements are a cornerstone of pugs and securing a decent run that is considerate of all people's time. Some times we run no req lfg sometimes we do. To win the argument you would have to propose that training every single newbie for every strike is a not only good ,but feasible and respectful of the group's time. A requirement is nothing more than a steeper hill when skiing. Can you go down these paths as a newbie? Is it recommended ? No . What are the consequences of failure ? Kicked or broken bones. What might solve the problem is frac style gate keeping. It's not perfect but at least it is something.

Regards

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@yann.1946 said:

@Ecoxiss.1079 said:I think that looking for Killproofs for Strikes is a Problem and shouldnt be allowed by Arenanet. They are designed to inspire new players and casuals to start raiding but 80% of the LFG Groups have started to do this Killproof Nonsense in Strikes too. This is exactly why Raids arent much played and wont get new stuff added. Its just spliting the community further.Yes, exactly. And this is also why raid/fractal sales should be forbidden.

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content.

Many players are not able to complete content because nobody's even willing to let them try. Like the job where you need 30 years experience to qualify for tutorial. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

Their are training raids however.I'm well aware. In fact, that's my only raid experience after 8,000 hours of total gameplay. And even in "training", people whine about damage, healing, equipment, skills, LI and god knows. Have friends myself who don't even try raids because of its truly awful atmosphere.

That really just depends on the guild and group though. And doesn't it make sense that during a training you would tell the people who underperformed that they do?

Where were the complains about li in trainings, I ve never heard about that before.

If they underperform to a level where content is not completable, absolutely. Sure, my raid experience is limited, but my fractal level is around 90, and I have already done quite some pug strikes. Never had a problem or anyone complaining. I get the impression that this is more about kittenheadry than actual performance issues - it's a game, for heaven's sake.

Li problem happened when we had to pug others to fill up the training group. They also stalked my ≈8,000 dps and whined about it.

Honestly I'll have to disagree about the being able to complete part. Because the point of a training is improving so not getting told what someone can improve on shouldn't be frowned upon.

It's important how this gets communicated though.

You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

Or do you really think their would suddenly be no requirements if sell groups where abolished?Do you really think raiders will help, if they're rewarded by avoiding to?

Everything isn't just black and white, but it's a good compromise.

Edit: Shared achievements could also be a solution. Whenever you help someone who happen not to have certain raid achievements, the commander/members of the squad also get points for helping. As the toxic community have mainstreamized to "hate" achieving, they won't care (or, they will care and start behaving), and the helpful/nice part will get rewarded for good deeds. In such a situation, it should totally be against ToS to sell runs as a side effect.

The things is, their are not enough raidsellers to make this a mayor contributor to the amount of raid training. (ignoring that quite a few sellers actually teach).

The bigger problem that would happen is discontent because now people will actually have to learn things they don't want to.

Edit: how do your friends know about the atmosphere if theyve never tried it?You may be right on that one, I haven't looked for the amount of sellers in a while. Doesn't change the point, though: there are still raiders preferring to exploit others' weaknesses for a profit.

Or their are people making gold based on skill and the desinterest of some people to do some content.

Do you have a problem with mesmers asking gold for jp ports?

Yes, if the case was that you would need a group to complete the puzzle, and the mesmer would kick you if you fail Not So Secret without a single flaw in under 90 seconds.No, as the mesmer can't ever affect your option of completing the puzzle yourself.

Isn't this what's happening already, in an extreme manner? One has to get full ascended armor, weapons and trinkets, potentially for hundreds of golds, to make a meta they don't even want to play. Whenever meta changes, hundreds of golds may to be spent again to change it. This to even get into training, as ascended is a requirement nowadays. And a lot of whatever-role-you-have-training, to satisfy some kittenhead who think they have the right to judge who is welcome to play their own game.

We'll last I checked full ascended was not a req for raid training.

Secondly, the right to choose who you play with works in all directions. And nobody is blocking access to any part of the game. (you can make your own groups for example)

From what you're saying, I must have been highly unfortunate with my raid group infos (sorry for going a little OT with raids, as this thread is about strikes, or what strikes is about to become). Afaik, ascended and meta has more or less always been a minor requirement.

And no, I don't choose who to play with. I rarely have 9 friends online, interested in the same thing at the same time, all at level 80 with good gear and patience, to fill up a squad. Then we wouldn't have this problem.

The friends who don't join raids are well aware of the community climate in WvW, PvP and other competitive stuff. Just looking at LFG titles is enough after that.

OK so they let confirmation and selection bias create their perception of a community they haven't met.

Does that seem reasonable to you?Totally. A kittenhead is a kittenhead, whether they slaughter their beloved or cuddle with their cat. As I said, just the titles where they judge who are welcome and not, with the general climate in pseudo-elitist areas in mind, is enough. One simply compare the likeliness of one thing to another - it's hard to ignore your own experience.

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@TwinFrozr.6214 said:

Honestly I'll have to disagree about the being able to complete part. Because the point of a training is improving so not getting told what someone can improve on shouldn't be frowned upon.

It's important how this gets communicated though.

You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

That lfg trainings for you. And the reason why very few decent raiders will run pug trainings. Its always a total shit show with people who dont know how to play their class complaining you wont let them join and experienced players complaining about it if you do. Also you need to do around 10k dps minimum to pull your own weight in most raids. 8k isnt that far off but when you consider most average raiders do 15-20k and good ones do 30k you can see why its a bit of a problem. You are essentially doing the same dps as a support chrono. I probably would, and have in the past, complained about dps players who do less dps than the supports, and i dont think thats elitist, since they basically arent doing the job they joined as.

In a raid training is not the time nor place to learn how to dps properly and its not really the commanders job to teach you that either. thats something you should know before entering a raid. Good commanders will give you tips though.

If you seriously want to get into raids, just join a guild. There are plenty out there who will happily take you and you save yourself alot of stress and headaches.

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@"TwinFrozr.6214" said:I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

The worst parts of this community name-call, hyperbolize, tell others the aren't playing the game right, and make up fake numbers to support arguments without logic or basis in reality.The worst parts of this community make blanket statements about content they have never/barely accessed, and use sock-puppet arguments about their "friends" rather than speaking for themselves.The worst parts of this community talk about what's "good for the game" while having zero data to back up their claims and invoke the word "community" as if others who don't align with them do not belong.

The worst parts of this community are gathered in this very thread.

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@TwinFrozr.6214 said:

@Ecoxiss.1079 said:I think that looking for Killproofs for Strikes is a Problem and shouldnt be allowed by Arenanet. They are designed to inspire new players and casuals to start raiding but 80% of the LFG Groups have started to do this Killproof Nonsense in Strikes too. This is exactly why Raids arent much played and wont get new stuff added. Its just spliting the community further.Yes, exactly. And this is also why raid/fractal sales should be forbidden.

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content.

Many players are not able to complete content because nobody's even willing to let them try. Like the job where you need 30 years experience to qualify for tutorial. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

Their are training raids however.I'm well aware. In fact, that's my only raid experience after 8,000 hours of total gameplay. And even in "training", people whine about damage, healing, equipment, skills, LI and god knows. Have friends myself who don't even try raids because of its truly awful atmosphere.

That really just depends on the guild and group though. And doesn't it make sense that during a training you would tell the people who underperformed that they do?

Where were the complains about li in trainings, I ve never heard about that before.

If they underperform to a level where content is not completable, absolutely. Sure, my raid experience is limited, but my fractal level is around 90, and I have already done quite some pug strikes. Never had a problem or anyone complaining. I get the impression that this is more about kittenheadry than actual performance issues - it's a game, for heaven's sake.

Li problem happened when we had to pug others to fill up the training group. They also stalked my ≈8,000 dps and whined about it.

Honestly I'll have to disagree about the being able to complete part. Because the point of a training is improving so not getting told what someone can improve on shouldn't be frowned upon.

It's important how this gets communicated though.

You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

Their was no commander in the squad?

Or do you really think their would suddenly be no requirements if sell groups where abolished?Do you really think raiders will help, if they're rewarded by avoiding to?

Everything isn't just black and white, but it's a good compromise.

Edit: Shared achievements could also be a solution. Whenever you help someone who happen not to have certain raid achievements, the commander/members of the squad also get points for helping. As the toxic community have mainstreamized to "hate" achieving, they won't care (or, they will care and start behaving), and the helpful/nice part will get rewarded for good deeds. In such a situation, it should totally be against ToS to sell runs as a side effect.

The things is, their are not enough raidsellers to make this a mayor contributor to the amount of raid training. (ignoring that quite a few sellers actually teach).

The bigger problem that would happen is discontent because now people will actually have to learn things they don't want to.

Edit: how do your friends know about the atmosphere if theyve never tried it?You may be right on that one, I haven't looked for the amount of sellers in a while. Doesn't change the point, though: there are still raiders preferring to exploit others' weaknesses for a profit.

Or their are people making gold based on skill and the desinterest of some people to do some content.

Do you have a problem with mesmers asking gold for jp ports?

Yes, if the case was that you would need a group to complete the puzzle, and the mesmer would kick you if you fail Not So Secret without a single flaw in under 90 seconds.No, as the mesmer can't ever affect your option of completing the puzzle yourself.

The raidseller also can't effect you're ability to complete, you can make you're own squads. Now i have to agree that a commander tag helps a lot. But thats why guilds can help a lot.

Isn't this what's happening already, in an extreme manner? One has to get full ascended armor, weapons and trinkets, potentially for hundreds of golds, to make a meta they don't even want to play. Whenever meta changes, hundreds of golds may to be spent again to change it. This to even get into training, as ascended is a requirement nowadays. And a lot of whatever-role-you-have-training, to satisfy some kittenhead who think they have the right to judge who is welcome to play their own game.

We'll last I checked full ascended was not a req for raid training.

Secondly, the right to choose who you play with works in all directions. And nobody is blocking access to any part of the game. (you can make your own groups for example)

From what you're saying, I must have been highly unfortunate with my raid group infos (sorry for going a little OT with raids, as this thread is about strikes, or what strikes is about to become). Afaik, ascended and meta has more or less always been a minor requirement.

In the raid training initiative (a discord and guild they expect a metabuild but don't expect full ascended , weapons and trinkets are encouraged and theirs an expectation that people don't come with full rare.)

And no, I don't choose who to play with. I rarely have 9 friends online, interested in the same thing at the same time, all at level 80 with good gear and patience, to fill up a squad. Then we wouldn't have this problem.

Thats why you open an lfg and filter for what you need. VG training- friendly people only-...

The friends who don't join raids are well aware of the community climate in WvW, PvP and other competitive stuff. Just looking at LFG titles is enough after that.

OK so they let confirmation and selection bias create their perception of a community they haven't met.

Does that seem reasonable to you?Totally. A kittenhead is a kittenhead, whether they slaughter their beloved or cuddle with their cat. As I said, just the titles where they judge who are welcome and not, with the general climate in pseudo-elitist areas in mind, is enough. One simply compare the likeliness of one thing to another - it's hard to ignore your own experience.

Honestly this makes my blood boil. This reasoning gets used to excuse so much atrocities. Even if all raiders where the worst people alive and you're completely right, judging people you haven't met because you think confirmation and selection bias aren't problem is just wrong.

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I do think asking for LI in Strike content is a little silly seeing how Strikes aren't even that hard but preventing them from being silly is a bit tyrannical. Like others have said make your own group and revel in the "Beginners welcome" spirit if that's the energy you want to be around. I know it is for me so I seek out the same. I was in a group that said EXP REQ GOOD DPS but then said the person who did the lowest dps would get kicked (which was me) which is a very off way to treat the group especially when it was just Shiverpeak Pass.Raiders obviously are bored from the lack of raids and rewards so they are descending on Strikes (almost going the opposite of what was intended with strikes). Beating the boss a minute or less faster and for one extra chest is not the greatest reason to act elitist but lets just avoid those people.

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@Moradorin.6217 said:

@"Ecoxiss.1079" said:Lowering the Loot for everyone isnt helping much tbh. Thats just making strikes useless for everyone :)They should just remove the KP Items or ban the process in lfg at all.Maybe an Easy and Hard Mode then?

If they remove kps then how would top raiders know how to get a good group?Easy and hardmode scenario would be like the discussions for ez and hard mode for raids

who cares. Strikes ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A STEPPING STONE! So pretty much, what I mean is, I don't see why people need to be able to exclude the people who need help and exerience. I think strikes have no valid reason to be in the game if it just becomes another part of the game that excludes people trying to learn. I also don't think it makes sense for people trying to learn to just be a squad of 10 noobs. GIve me a break. If people who do know what to do arent willing to group with the people learning IT WONT WORK AND SHOULD JUST BE DELETED.

Bottom line: People who think it should have KP so they can 100% avoid new players should go find a new game. THis is a community game and its more than just getting the most loot in the least time. People who only care about that are in the wrong game anyway, its not like gw2 offers good loot. I mean its more efficient to work and hour and buy gold w gems if you just want loot go get a job.

We had someone in game doing low DPS and one person was like WHY ARE YOU DOING SUCH LOW DPS?!?!?!? Active dps shaming is kinda sad. Teaching them (hello mentor tag up) is a much more useful tool. Saying to him "hey its more efficient in the group if you had these certain stats with this certain level of XYZ" and let them know Strikes are not exactly bounties and need more coordination, practice and minimum requirments- which I might add ANET has not told any of these new players that THAT is what is best in this MMO. People literally have to figure it out for themselves and some things get lost in the cracks. I literally had a group of raiders DPS shame me who had no food or utility buffs on. Yup. We all just need to have fun and the "loot" is not worth the elitism or the stress.

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@HotDelirium.7984 said:

@"Ecoxiss.1079" said:Lowering the Loot for everyone isnt helping much tbh. Thats just making strikes useless for everyone :)They should just remove the KP Items or ban the process in lfg at all.Maybe an Easy and Hard Mode then?

If they remove kps then how would top raiders know how to get a good group?Easy and hardmode scenario would be like the discussions for ez and hard mode for raids

who cares. Strikes ARE SUPPOSED TO BE A STEPPING STONE! So pretty much, what I mean is, I don't see why people need to be able to exclude the people who need help and exerience. I think strikes have no valid reason to be in the game if it just becomes another part of the game that excludes people trying to learn. I also don't think it makes sense for people trying to learn to just be a squad of 10 noobs. GIve me a break. If people who do know what to do arent willing to group with the people learning IT WONT WORK AND SHOULD JUST BE DELETED.

Bottom line: People who think it should have KP so they can 100% avoid new players should go find a new game. THis is a community game and its more than just getting the most loot in the least time. People who only care about that are in the wrong game anyway, its not like gw2 offers good loot. I mean its more efficient to work and hour and buy gold w gems if you just want loot go get a job.

Saying to him "hey its more efficient in the group if you had these certain stats with this certain level of XYZ" and let them know Strikes are not exactly bounties and need more coordination, practice and minimum requirments

I think people underestimate how often this is met with hostility rather than thanks or acceptance.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"HotDelirium.7984" said:Saying to him "hey its more efficient in the group if you had these certain stats with this certain level of XYZ" and let them know Strikes are not exactly bounties and need more coordination, practice and minimum requirments

I think people underestimate how often this is met with hostility rather than thanks or acceptance.

Well we've read posts around these forums that someone needs to ask for permission before giving such advice. Even if it's something really obvious

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I think people underestimate how often this is met with hostility rather than thanks or acceptance.

Text doesn't convey tone but either one of them barking at anyone is inappropriate. I think taking the high road is better overall even if people turn hostile. Me feeling embarrassed and angry that I was ignorant about something is a much more remedial place to be in then being called an idiot and DPS shamed.

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@HotDelirium.7984 said:

I think people underestimate how often this is met with hostility rather than thanks or acceptance.

Text doesn't convey tone but either one of them barking at anyone is inappropriate. I think taking the high road is better overall even if people turn hostile. Me feeling embarrassed and angry that I was ignorant about something is a much more remedial place to be in then being called an idiot and DPS shamed.

But taking the high road and removing the toxicity from the group ends up spouting threads along the lines of trying to vilify those who attempted to help them and branding them toxic elitists.

You experienced something bad. Sorry to hear. But that in no way was my point.

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@"TwinFrozr.6214" said:You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

making someone aware of his below average dps i perfectly fine during a training. though its not enough to just say "your dps is 8k, thats too low." - in that case the commander shouldve referred to one of the many websites that offer builds and rotations so you know how to improve your dps.During your training you probably noticed that most raid encounters have an "enrage timer". Once that timer hits 0, the boss goes in enrage mode, sometimes making it impossible to finish the boss even for experienced groups. If everyone on the squad did 8k dps, most bosses will not be dead before that. that alone should be reason enough for you to learn your rotation and improve your dps.

After all you had 1.5h to get a feeling for the boss' mechanics, didnt you? so those 1.5h are not wasted.If you consider them wasted just because you didnt get the kill that shows that you do not have the attitude needed to play this content succesfully, and the raiding community is better off without you.

edit:it also should be mentioned that not all training squads are the same. a lot of them expect you to learn your rotation and do decent dps before joining them, so they can focus on learning how to execute mechanics.

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"TwinFrozr.6214" said:I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

The worst parts of this community name-call, hyperbolize, tell others the aren't playing the game right, and make up fake numbers to support arguments without logic or basis in reality.The worst parts of this community make blanket statements about content they have never/barely accessed, and use sock-puppet arguments about their "friends" rather than speaking for themselves.The worst parts of this community talk about what's "good for the game" while having zero data to back up their claims and invoke the word "community" as if others who don't align with them do not belong.

The worst parts of this community are gathered in this very thread.I notice that my previous comment took its toll on you quite badly. Apologies, it was really nothing personal.

I don't get what you're trying to say with your gibberish about "logic". Do you understand what logic is? Then answer the following:

  • What logically says a player absolutely can't do 8,000 dps, especially if it's a low number?
  • What logically says one person's experience is worth more than the same person plus his/her friends (or, as for not offending you, a random number of randomized known people) together?
  • What logically says one must have a specific amount of experience of one specific subject, before forming a personal opinion; and that every subject similar or equal is irrelevant?
  • How high is that experience level, and what logically says it makes you experienced enough for your own personal opinion?
  • What logically says you, out of millions of players, are the only right to judge the above?
  • And if so, why would you logically reply to something you've already predetermined as fake?

I'm getting the impression that you honestly believe you're the only physical person playing this game. Every player and every thing you haven't seen hasn't happen. There are no friends because there are no players. Neither can't there be any dps. And, most importantly, as the combined value of opinion decrease with the amount of people agreeing, your opinion is worth more than the entire world's together. Either that, or you're extremely biased towards your personal preconception (which is fully understandable; as we human beings have a natural tendency/bias to agree with everything that's in our own favor). Alternatively, which is actually pretty obvious, you're trolling.

Anyhow, from your opinion I understand the worst parts of "this" (subject is Guild Wars 2, i.e. the game; not Guild Wars 2 forum, some Guild Wars 2 subforum or this thread) community are;

  • players who can think and make statements on their own
  • players who have a different experience than you
  • players who can make up and discuss theoretical arguments without "proving" anything (I mean, really? What do you expect me to do? Posting my DPS? Posting screenshots of my contact list? Making videos with IRL contacts playing the game? Would you do that yourself? What would that even change?)
  • players who would reconsider the stupidity of jumping a deep well, if they have experienced others jump a ground well and die
  • players who back statements up with examples, for instance trustworthy contacts (I deeply apologize for your misunderstanding of a friend)
  • players who base an argument on 100% life experience (i.e. opinion), and no scientificial research, so that you actually have to put words in their mouth to make drama.

I've seen much, but this is interesting.

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@yann.1946 said:

@Ecoxiss.1079 said:I think that looking for Killproofs for Strikes is a Problem and shouldnt be allowed by Arenanet. They are designed to inspire new players and casuals to start raiding but 80% of the LFG Groups have started to do this Killproof Nonsense in Strikes too. This is exactly why Raids arent much played and wont get new stuff added. Its just spliting the community further.Yes, exactly. And this is also why raid/fractal sales should be forbidden.

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content.

Many players are not able to complete content because nobody's even willing to let them try. Like the job where you need 30 years experience to qualify for tutorial. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

Their are training raids however.I'm well aware. In fact, that's my only raid experience after 8,000 hours of total gameplay. And even in "training", people whine about damage, healing, equipment, skills, LI and god knows. Have friends myself who don't even try raids because of its truly awful atmosphere.

That really just depends on the guild and group though. And doesn't it make sense that during a training you would tell the people who underperformed that they do?

Where were the complains about li in trainings, I ve never heard about that before.

If they underperform to a level where content is not completable, absolutely. Sure, my raid experience is limited, but my fractal level is around 90, and I have already done quite some pug strikes. Never had a problem or anyone complaining. I get the impression that this is more about kittenheadry than actual performance issues - it's a game, for heaven's sake.

Li problem happened when we had to pug others to fill up the training group. They also stalked my ≈8,000 dps and whined about it.

Honestly I'll have to disagree about the being able to complete part. Because the point of a training is improving so not getting told what someone can improve on shouldn't be frowned upon.

It's important how this gets communicated though.

You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

Their was no commander in the squad?

I really can't remember, sorry. Haven't played a raid in 2 or 3 years now.

Or do you really think their would suddenly be no requirements if sell groups where abolished?Do you really think raiders will help, if they're rewarded by avoiding to?

Everything isn't just black and white, but it's a good compromise.

Edit: Shared achievements could also be a solution. Whenever you help someone who happen not to have certain raid achievements, the commander/members of the squad also get points for helping. As the toxic community have mainstreamized to "hate" achieving, they won't care (or, they will care and start behaving), and the helpful/nice part will get rewarded for good deeds. In such a situation, it should totally be against ToS to sell runs as a side effect.

The things is, their are not enough raidsellers to make this a mayor contributor to the amount of raid training. (ignoring that quite a few sellers actually teach).

The bigger problem that would happen is discontent because now people will actually have to learn things they don't want to.

Edit: how do your friends know about the atmosphere if theyve never tried it?You may be right on that one, I haven't looked for the amount of sellers in a while. Doesn't change the point, though: there are still raiders preferring to exploit others' weaknesses for a profit.

Or their are people making gold based on skill and the desinterest of some people to do some content.

Do you have a problem with mesmers asking gold for jp ports?

Yes, if the case was that you would need a group to complete the puzzle, and the mesmer would kick you if you fail Not So Secret without a single flaw in under 90 seconds.No, as the mesmer can't ever affect your option of completing the puzzle yourself.

The raidseller also can't effect you're ability to complete, you can make you're own squads. Now i have to agree that a commander tag helps a lot. But thats why guilds can help a lot.

Yes, of course. I must have misjudged the number of raid sellers though, perhaps they showed in some open world LFG and I noticed them there. Just want raid purchases as an option, not a requirement.

Isn't this what's happening already, in an extreme manner? One has to get full ascended armor, weapons and trinkets, potentially for hundreds of golds, to make a meta they don't even want to play. Whenever meta changes, hundreds of golds may to be spent again to change it. This to even get into training, as ascended is a requirement nowadays. And a lot of whatever-role-you-have-training, to satisfy some kittenhead who think they have the right to judge who is welcome to play their own game.

We'll last I checked full ascended was not a req for raid training.

Secondly, the right to choose who you play with works in all directions. And nobody is blocking access to any part of the game. (you can make your own groups for example)

From what you're saying, I must have been highly unfortunate with my raid group infos (sorry for going a little OT with raids, as this thread is about strikes, or what strikes is about to become). Afaik, ascended and meta has more or less always been a minor requirement.

In the raid training initiative (a discord and guild they expect a metabuild but don't expect full ascended , weapons and trinkets are encouraged and theirs an expectation that people don't come with full rare.)

And no, I don't choose who to play with. I rarely have 9 friends online, interested in the same thing at the same time, all at level 80 with good gear and patience, to fill up a squad. Then we wouldn't have this problem.

Thats why you open an lfg and filter for what you need. VG training- friendly people only-...

The friends who don't join raids are well aware of the community climate in WvW, PvP and other competitive stuff. Just looking at LFG titles is enough after that.

OK so they let confirmation and selection bias create their perception of a community they haven't met.

Does that seem reasonable to you?Totally. A kittenhead is a kittenhead, whether they slaughter their beloved or cuddle with their cat. As I said, just the titles where they judge who are welcome and not, with the general climate in pseudo-elitist areas in mind, is enough. One simply compare the likeliness of one thing to another - it's hard to ignore your own experience.

Honestly this makes my blood boil. This reasoning gets used to excuse so much atrocities. Even if all raiders where the worst people alive and you're completely right, judging people you haven't met because you think confirmation and selection bias aren't problem is just wrong.Thanks for the tips.

The community and the pseudo-elitism is on the same level, though. It's correct I haven't been there much, but if you already know the worst-scenario climate in PvP and WvW, and get that in your very first runs, combined with it being the absolutely most kittenhole-oriented content in the game, you have to be both blind and dead not to realize the outcome.

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

Honestly I'll have to disagree about the being able to complete part. Because the point of a training is improving so not getting told what someone can improve on shouldn't be frowned upon.

It's important how this gets communicated though.

You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

That lfg trainings for you. And the reason why very few decent raiders will run pug trainings. Its always a total kitten show with people who dont know how to play their class complaining you wont let them join and experienced players complaining about it if you do. Also you need to do around 10k dps minimum to pull your own weight in most raids. 8k isnt that far off but when you consider most average raiders do 15-20k and good ones do 30k you can see why its a bit of a problem. You are essentially doing the same dps as a support chrono. I probably would, and have in the past, complained about dps players who do less dps than the supports, and i dont think thats elitist, since they basically arent doing the job they joined as.

In a raid training is not the time nor place to learn how to dps properly and its not really the commanders job to teach you that either. thats something you should know before entering a raid. Good commanders will give you tips though.

If you seriously want to get into raids, just join a guild. There are plenty out there who will happily take you and you save yourself alot of stress and headaches.Thanks for the tips from you as well :)
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@TwinFrozr.6214 said:

@Ecoxiss.1079 said:I think that looking for Killproofs for Strikes is a Problem and shouldnt be allowed by Arenanet. They are designed to inspire new players and casuals to start raiding but 80% of the LFG Groups have started to do this Killproof Nonsense in Strikes too. This is exactly why Raids arent much played and wont get new stuff added. Its just spliting the community further.Yes, exactly. And this is also why raid/fractal sales should be forbidden.

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:Reaching back to the roots of Guild Wars, selling "runs" has been a core role for certain members of our community. We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content.

Many players are not able to complete content because nobody's even willing to let them try. Like the job where you need 30 years experience to qualify for tutorial. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

Their are training raids however.I'm well aware. In fact, that's my only raid experience after 8,000 hours of total gameplay. And even in "training", people whine about damage, healing, equipment, skills, LI and god knows. Have friends myself who don't even try raids because of its truly awful atmosphere.

That really just depends on the guild and group though. And doesn't it make sense that during a training you would tell the people who underperformed that they do?

Where were the complains about li in trainings, I ve never heard about that before.

If they underperform to a level where content is not completable, absolutely. Sure, my raid experience is limited, but my fractal level is around 90, and I have already done quite some pug strikes. Never had a problem or anyone complaining. I get the impression that this is more about kittenheadry than actual performance issues - it's a game, for heaven's sake.

Li problem happened when we had to pug others to fill up the training group. They also stalked my ≈8,000 dps and whined about it.

Honestly I'll have to disagree about the being able to complete part. Because the point of a training is improving so not getting told what someone can improve on shouldn't be frowned upon.

It's important how this gets communicated though.

You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

Their was no commander in the squad?

I really can't remember, sorry. Haven't played a raid in 2 or 3 years now.

To bad, If their is a commander in the squad you play then that commander can decide everything. So in that case the comm can kick the toxic people for example.You do need a comm you trust ofcourse. :)

Or do you really think their would suddenly be no requirements if sell groups where abolished?Do you really think raiders will help, if they're rewarded by avoiding to?

Everything isn't just black and white, but it's a good compromise.

Edit: Shared achievements could also be a solution. Whenever you help someone who happen not to have certain raid achievements, the commander/members of the squad also get points for helping. As the toxic community have mainstreamized to "hate" achieving, they won't care (or, they will care and start behaving), and the helpful/nice part will get rewarded for good deeds. In such a situation, it should totally be against ToS to sell runs as a side effect.

The things is, their are not enough raidsellers to make this a mayor contributor to the amount of raid training. (ignoring that quite a few sellers actually teach).

The bigger problem that would happen is discontent because now people will actually have to learn things they don't want to.

Edit: how do your friends know about the atmosphere if theyve never tried it?You may be right on that one, I haven't looked for the amount of sellers in a while. Doesn't change the point, though: there are still raiders preferring to exploit others' weaknesses for a profit.

Or their are people making gold based on skill and the desinterest of some people to do some content.

Do you have a problem with mesmers asking gold for jp ports?

Yes, if the case was that you would need a group to complete the puzzle, and the mesmer would kick you if you fail Not So Secret without a single flaw in under 90 seconds.No, as the mesmer can't ever affect your option of completing the puzzle yourself.

The raidseller also can't effect you're ability to complete, you can make you're own squads. Now i have to agree that a commander tag helps a lot. But thats why guilds can help a lot.

Yes, of course. I must have misjudged the number of raid sellers though, perhaps they showed in some open world LFG and I noticed them there. Just want raid purchases as an option, not a requirement.

Can i ask you to elaborate on this point, because i have no idea what you mean by raid purchases as a requirement?

Isn't this what's happening already, in an extreme manner? One has to get full ascended armor, weapons and trinkets, potentially for hundreds of golds, to make a meta they don't even want to play. Whenever meta changes, hundreds of golds may to be spent again to change it. This to even get into training, as ascended is a requirement nowadays. And a lot of whatever-role-you-have-training, to satisfy some kittenhead who think they have the right to judge who is welcome to play their own game.

We'll last I checked full ascended was not a req for raid training.

Secondly, the right to choose who you play with works in all directions. And nobody is blocking access to any part of the game. (you can make your own groups for example)

From what you're saying, I must have been highly unfortunate with my raid group infos (sorry for going a little OT with raids, as this thread is about strikes, or what strikes is about to become). Afaik, ascended and meta has more or less always been a minor requirement.

In the raid training initiative (a discord and guild they expect a metabuild but don't expect full ascended , weapons and trinkets are encouraged and theirs an expectation that people don't come with full rare.)

And no, I don't choose who to play with. I rarely have 9 friends online, interested in the same thing at the same time, all at level 80 with good gear and patience, to fill up a squad. Then we wouldn't have this problem.

Thats why you open an lfg and filter for what you need. VG training- friendly people only-...

The friends who don't join raids are well aware of the community climate in WvW, PvP and other competitive stuff. Just looking at LFG titles is enough after that.

OK so they let confirmation and selection bias create their perception of a community they haven't met.

Does that seem reasonable to you?Totally. A kittenhead is a kittenhead, whether they slaughter their beloved or cuddle with their cat. As I said, just the titles where they judge who are welcome and not, with the general climate in pseudo-elitist areas in mind, is enough. One simply compare the likeliness of one thing to another - it's hard to ignore your own experience.

Honestly this makes my blood boil. This reasoning gets used to excuse so much atrocities. Even if all raiders where the worst people alive and you're completely right, judging people you haven't met because you think confirmation and selection bias aren't problem is just wrong.Thanks for the tips.

The community and the pseudo-elitism is on the same level, though. It's correct I haven't been there
much
, but if you already know the worst-scenario climate in PvP and WvW, and get that in your very first runs, combined with it being the absolutely most kittenhole-oriented content in the game, you have to be both blind and dead not to realize the outcome.

You're welcome. :)

But how do you know that that isn't also the worst case scenario in raids? Like i won't deny that their are toxic people in raids, but to me i've met more toxic people in open world (or 1 person who has way to much free time). But to me the problem wasn't that you think the raidcommunity is toxic. it was about HOW you and you're friends got that information/idea.

Honestly I'll have to disagree about the being able to complete part. Because the point of a training is improving so not getting told what someone can improve on shouldn't be frowned upon.

It's important how this gets communicated though.

You're absolutely right, one cannot learn without feedback. I didn't get any kind of constructive feedback, though. How much damage did I have to do? 16,000? 32,000? Half a million? All we got was three other trolls joining the first one, then our squad started leaving because the pugger psuedo-elitists couldn't behave, resulting in all of us kicked when they became majority. 1,5 hours right to the trash can.

That lfg trainings for you. And the reason why very few decent raiders will run pug trainings. Its always a total kitten show with people who dont know how to play their class complaining you wont let them join and experienced players complaining about it if you do. Also you need to do around 10k dps minimum to pull your own weight in most raids. 8k isnt that far off but when you consider most average raiders do 15-20k and good ones do 30k you can see why its a bit of a problem. You are essentially doing the same dps as a support chrono. I probably would, and have in the past, complained about dps players who do less dps than the supports, and i dont think thats elitist, since they basically arent doing the job they joined as.

In a raid training is not the time nor place to learn how to dps properly and its not really the commanders job to teach you that either. thats something you should know before entering a raid. Good commanders will give you tips though.

If you seriously want to get into raids, just join a guild. There are plenty out there who will happily take you and you save yourself alot of stress and headaches.Thanks for the tips from you as well :)
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@TwinFrozr.6214 said:

@TwinFrozr.6214 said:I've said it before, I'll say it again: Post-HoT, fractals, raids and WvW have simply become gathering points for the very worst parts of the community.

The worst parts of this community name-call, hyperbolize, tell others the aren't playing the game right, and make up fake numbers to support arguments without logic or basis in reality.The worst parts of this community make blanket statements about content they have never/barely accessed, and use sock-puppet arguments about their "friends" rather than speaking for themselves.The worst parts of this community talk about what's "good for the game" while having zero data to back up their claims and invoke the word "community" as if others who don't align with them do not belong.

The worst parts of this community are gathered in this very thread.I notice that my previous comment took its toll on you quite badly. Apologies, it was really nothing personal.

Was just keeping tabs on this thread really but...

This comment and the entirety of the gibberish below it are deflections, obtuse at best.

If it's not already ironic you are attempting to make blanket statements about Circus's comment when it was just pointed out that's exactly one of the many types of toxic players in this game, I don't know what to say other than your dishonestly is showing here.

You already know precisely the argument Circus is making with all of this, the LI/Killproofs for strikes isn't an issue, players are asking for experience not at all dissimilar to a resume when you join the raid, you are getting a job to do with the team.

The arrogant ones demanding the requirements to be adjusted to their needs are people who don't match the resume, not even a little bit. Let alone attempting to take initiative themselves to create their own strike requirements that suit their own needs, they would rather try leeching off the efforts of the squad leader and adversely impacting the rest of the squad team's job.

So allow me to turn the question back, are you trolling or are you actually unaware that sometimes, people would like certain things from people who join their groups?

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